[pRoTimber]

why so many maphacker on sea ladder these days? Clan fade can u tell fadeevets not to maphack?

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:	a bad one at that
	mGGDaedalus:	Get some evidence before throwing around accusations like that
	deL:

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

why so many maphacker on sea ladder these days? Clan fade can u tell fadeevets not to maphack?

LOL wtf i've kept this to myself for a few months now, but fadeevets is 141% a maphacker

[pRoTimber]

ya caught him after 1 game, unlike other hackers have to play so many games to catch

[aLtShortizz]

Do u guys have proof of it? Ive know evets for a long time and played plenty against him, i wouldnt doubt him unless i see some evidence.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

+1 to that he seems totally clean! need teh proof!

[mGMUSE]

(replays in next post)

After 3 seasons..

Game2(TDA)

Once again, completely no drone scout, doesn't even see my base until my nat starts mining(and even then only the edge of the glowing minerals).

1:55 - 2:10: Watch my SCV scout and his line of sight - He NEVER sees the SCV on any of his overlord yet he decides to change the path of his Drone(that was going to be a hatch) downwards to avoid my SCV. Clear tell imo.

3:15 - 3:30: Again, look at his line of sight - He doesn't see the bunker building yet he pulls 3 drones immediately. Sure, you could say that his overlord spotted my scv for a brief moment at 3:15, but LOOK AT HIS PLAYER CAM - HE WASN'T LOOKING AT THAT SPOT!

5:45: Roach Warren when he hasn't scouted me AT ALL and I seemed to be bunker pushing him(roaches are usually more reserved for reaper openings). Probably production tab hacking - He saw that I was making reactored hellions

6:00: Preemptive split of zerglings right before my hellions came in. An excellent player might be able to do that

Rest of the game didnt have much of a tell, but just keep an eye on the Production tab as well as my activities and his.

14:10: Banes morph RIGHT BEFORE my army reaches his base without seeing my army move out.

Final battle - Not very suspicious but he attacks right before my reinforcements arrives.

[mGMUSE]

didnt attach

[FaDeGofire]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

(replays in next post)

After 3 seasons..

Game2(TDA)

Once again, completely no drone scout, doesn't even see my base until my nat starts mining(and even then only the edge of the glowing minerals).

1:55 - 2:10: Watch my SCV scout and his line of sight - He NEVER sees the SCV on any of his overlord yet he decides to change the path of his Drone(that was going to be a hatch) downwards to avoid my SCV. Clear tell imo.

3:15 - 3:30: Again, look at his line of sight - He doesn't see the bunker building yet he pulls 3 drones immediately. Sure, you could say that his overlord spotted my scv for a brief moment at 3:15, but LOOK AT HIS PLAYER CAM - HE WASN'T LOOKING AT THAT SPOT!

5:45: Roach Warren when he hasn't scouted me AT ALL and I seemed to be bunker pushing him(roaches are usually more reserved for reaper openings). Probably production tab hacking - He saw that I was making reactored hellions

6:00: Preemptive split of zerglings right before my hellions came in. An excellent player might be able to do that

Rest of the game didnt have much of a tell, but just keep an eye on the Production tab as well as my activities and his.

14:10: Banes morph RIGHT BEFORE my army reaches his base without seeing my army move out.

Final battle - Not very suspicious but he attacks right before my reinforcements arrives.

hmm.. i'm not thoroughly convinced..
1. the drone dodging scv scout looked the most suspicious to me. i'm not a zerg player so i don't know.. is it possible that he always does it when 15 hatching? at high level, opponents will time their scout to come just before 15 hatch to block it.. so hiding drone might be a valid strat?

2. if he was watching minimap the scv movement looked suspicious enough to justify pulling a couple of drones to check; especially since he had no vision of his nat. also, the drones did not go straight to the bunker. i'm not sure about this either.

3. reactor hellion is the most common tvz opener. tal'darim is pretty good for hellion harass. maybe it's just a precaution?

4. wouldn't a good zerg player have a sense of when the hellions will be out and near his base? not a clear tell of maphacking imo

5. banes morphed right after the zerglings where produced. could be that he wanted to make banelings immediately?

sorry if my points are stupid. This is just my opinion and reasoning of why he might have done those actions. evets is my clan mate and friend.. i really need to see undeniable proof of maphacking or his confession before i can believe it. I would like to see more replays please


EDIT: @nrvgrim i don't regret anything i posted here. Evets admitted to hacking against timber and has assured me he has only done it twice. I have no reason to believe he used hacks against muse unless more replays are provided. as pig said.. this replay is not conclusive evidence of maphacking.

Quick Comments

AxSGRiM:

Kinda funny he admitted it, eh?

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by FaDeGofire

hmm.. i'm not thoroughly convinced..
1. the drone dodging scv scout looked the most suspicious to me. i'm not a zerg player so i don't know.. is it possible that he always does it when 15 hatching? at high level, opponents will time their scout to come just before 15 hatch to block it.. so hiding drone might be a valid strat?

2. if he was watching minimap the scv movement looked suspicious enough to justify pulling a couple of drones to check; especially since he had no vision of his nat. also, the drones did not go straight to the bunker. i'm not sure about this either.

3. reactor hellion is the most common tvz opener. tal'darim is pretty good for hellion harass. maybe it's just a precaution?

4. wouldn't a good zerg player have a sense of when the hellions will be out and near his base? not a clear tell of maphacking imo

5. banes morphed right after the zerglings where produced. could be that he wanted to make banelings immediately?

sorry if my points are stupid. This is just my opinion and reasoning of why he might have done those actions. evets is my clan mate and friend.. i really need to see undeniable proof of maphacking or his confession before i can believe it. I would like to see more replays please

i feel that your post is too biased, you have to view the replay with a neutral mindset instead of 'how to defend my clanmate'

1. ok.............
2. pulled 3 drones to check?
3+4.
remember this was back in season 2, where 2rax or reaper openings were the norm and hardly anyone went reactored hellions. to have that kind of understanding at that time would mean..... only nestea on crack

Quick Comments

	PiG:	nestea on crack? helion openers have ALWAYS been extremely common
	AxSGRiM:

[PiG]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

(replays in next post)

After 3 seasons..

Game2(TDA)

Once again, completely no drone scout, doesn't even see my base until my nat starts mining(and even then only the edge of the glowing minerals).

1:55 - 2:10: Watch my SCV scout and his line of sight - He NEVER sees the SCV on any of his overlord yet he decides to change the path of his Drone(that was going to be a hatch) downwards to avoid my SCV. Clear tell imo.

3:15 - 3:30: Again, look at his line of sight - He doesn't see the bunker building yet he pulls 3 drones immediately. Sure, you could say that his overlord spotted my scv for a brief moment at 3:15, but LOOK AT HIS PLAYER CAM - HE WASN'T LOOKING AT THAT SPOT!

5:45: Roach Warren when he hasn't scouted me AT ALL and I seemed to be bunker pushing him(roaches are usually more reserved for reaper openings). Probably production tab hacking - He saw that I was making reactored hellions

6:00: Preemptive split of zerglings right before my hellions came in. An excellent player might be able to do that

Rest of the game didnt have much of a tell, but just keep an eye on the Production tab as well as my activities and his.

14:10: Banes morph RIGHT BEFORE my army reaches his base without seeing my army move out.

Final battle - Not very suspicious but he attacks right before my reinforcements arrives.

*The drone dodging the scv is unexplainable but is not proof in of itself. Sometimes you see chronoboost and other animations through fog of war and as your scv goes past his overlord barely out of vision I think he may have been able to see it in-game even if we can't in the replay this is just a small possibility. Also he could have had his hatchery blocked in previous games and was just taking precautions to avoid the possibility of scouting scvs. Whilst this sounds stupid I see players do this sort of thing ALL the time where they blindcounter things because they've been fighting it on ladder alot.

*He doesn't have an overlord over the hatchery and sees the scv go near it, pulling 3 drones to deal with it is understandable.

*This was ages ago soon after i coached evets how to play vs reactor helions with early roaches. If I'm not misinterpreting it looks like he's playing rather blind simply because he's focusing on his new build order. Now to react with a warren against a 1 rax bunker pressure by expecting helions following it is absolutely standard... you only could have gone helions or 1 rax FE from here. So evets actually made a mistake by going roaches without scouting/verifying you had taken gas and weren't expanding. Basically he was just assuming he had to defend the more aggressive of the 2 options (obviously reactor helions are more aggressive then 1 rax fe...) and prepared accordingly.

*pre-split zerglings is normal. if you don't have anything but lings to defend helions then its standard
*He just got raped by an attack and morphs alot of banes defensively against a player who's shown Marine marauder + blueflame play. This is in no way a tell.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAScarecrow:

[pRoTimber]

think of "minimap" hack/ sensor tower hack then u will see

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

thanks for uploading replays timber!

[PiG]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

think of "minimap" hack/ sensor tower hack then u will see

I see some suspect things going on. I also see both of you playing pretty badly.

If you would chill and point out the points in the rep you think are suspect I would love to reply to them and try to convince you otherwise. Timber I've played you alot on ladder and you are the cheesiest terran I know. I don't mean that as an insult but I mean that you all-in constantly. Play very low-econ and love drops and elevators. As such you are very predictable and someone preparing for that sort of play is not out off the question.

His low muta count being placed in the main makes perfect sense, as his army at the nat is covering his 3rd. What doesn't make sense is half his army running through watchtower vision soon after you leave the tower. But you know what, if you watch all your saved replays trying to look for maphackers you can always find some "evidence" that it exists. Looking at this replay he could have done so many things so much better especially if he was maphacking that I really don't see why it would enrage you that his movements in one situation are suspect.

I've never had trouble beating evets and he's such a nice guy that I find 2 replays posted by a player who won (muse) and a player who should have won (timber) to be unconvincing. I've seen evets play amazing games mechanically and decision-making wise. And the evidence you provided shows some pretty sub-par play with 1-2 strangely intuitive decisions. I really feel he would have dominated 10 times as hard if he was actually hacking.

This is just my opinion and i am extremely biased as evets is a friend and ex-student. But I do feel that the evidence you provided of you ragequitting after playing badly, and then providing mostly bad points (muse) and zero points other then something about map awareness (timber) I think you are both reacting with your hearts and not your heads.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by PiG

This is just my opinion and i am extremely biased as evets is a friend and ex-student. But I do feel that the evidence you provided of you ragequitting after playing badly, and then providing mostly bad points (muse) and zero points other then something about map awareness (timber) I think you are both reacting with your hearts and not your heads.

PiG, you're super very stronger than so many of us and can see so many things we can't (I think it, really). But please, please, don't jump on conclusions before giving time to time, especially since you admit you're extremely biased. Since it's your student and friend, that's not your call to judge it. Let neutral people have their analysis about it. If you don't it will get everyone nervous very quick.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	good point, sorry
	x5.Revenant:

[pRoTimber]

Originally Posted by PiG

I see some suspect things going on. I also see both of you playing pretty badly.

If you would chill and point out the points in the rep you think are suspect I would love to reply to them and try to convince you otherwise. Timber I've played you alot on ladder and you are the cheesiest terran I know. I don't mean that as an insult but I mean that you all-in constantly. Play very low-econ and love drops and elevators. As such you are very predictable and someone preparing for that sort of play is not out off the question.

His low muta count being placed in the main makes perfect sense, as his army at the nat is covering his 3rd. What doesn't make sense is half his army running through watchtower vision soon after you leave the tower. But you know what, if you watch all your saved replays trying to look for maphackers you can always find some "evidence" that it exists. Looking at this replay he could have done so many things so much better especially if he was maphacking that I really don't see why it would enrage you that his movements in one situation are suspect.

I've never had trouble beating evets and he's such a nice guy that I find 2 replays posted by a player who won (muse) and a player who should have won (timber) to be unconvincing. I've seen evets play amazing games mechanically and decision-making wise. And the evidence you provided shows some pretty sub-par play with 1-2 strangely intuitive decisions. I really feel he would have dominated 10 times as hard if he was actually hacking.

This is just my opinion and i am extremely biased as evets is a friend and ex-student. But I do feel that the evidence you provided of you ragequitting after playing badly, and then providing mostly bad points (muse) and zero points other then something about map awareness (timber) I think you are both reacting with your hearts and not your heads.

Evets: forget about it, try send the program to blizzard so that they could fix it in the next patch or something.

Pig: if u know me from a year ago u'll know i say glhf/gg everygame until i got bmed to the ground by certain ppl that i stopped doing it unless my opponent say it to me 1st.

It was only a few days ago when muse told me that evets is a hacker, i know whats coming and expecting it already thats why i dont even bother to reply him in the 1st place, after my doomdrop got caught like that i've already lost the mood to play on. If muse haven't told me i wouldnt even pay attention to it as it would be one of my normal losses.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Excellent idea to send the hack to Blizzard. You're wise to stay calm.
	EveVendetta:	Chill dude, you're doing well on ladder

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

Pig: if u know me from a year ago u'll know i say glhf/gg everygame until i got bmed to the ground by certain ppl that i stopped doing it unless my opponent say it to me 1st.

I don't think PiG was saying you were BM. he said that you all-in and cheese a lot. Contrary to what most people say, cheese is not BM.

[FaDeEvetS]

fairly sure the game/timeframe you're talkng about (havent watched the rep yet) was JUST after i'd had coaching/talked to pig about zvt and how to open. so i was pretty much just blindly doing what he'd told me, in order to get practice with the build as my mechanics etc were obviously much lower then so it was difficult to try out a new style as well as maintain scouting etc.
and even to this day i pretty much get 3 roaches if they do anything other than 2 rax ..

been streaming this morning and just played a game against timber on stream btw..

[pRoTimber]

i dont care stream or not, or how u hack with stream on, or started streaming after the hack game, and lose to me in 2nd game just to say " im not hacking ". im ignorant and dont usually do this, i only posted the replays cuz nirvana said i should support my claim with evidence. so hack or not, u know, i know, god knows. i believe in karma but wtf karma gonna do to a maphacker, so fk this shit, i got more problems in life than to pursue this case that wont even get the hackers banned.

Quick Comments

	TAEdarus:	Chill brother.
	FaDeBadger:	Calm down and go away
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	And you did right

[TargA]

omg dis be sum sirus shit, i tink muse is liek rite

Quick Comments

	TAEdarus:	Y SO SRS?
	deL:	i dnt speek sweedish

[FaDeEvetS]

....right, so if i'm allowed to put up evidence to defend myself, here's a first person VOD, 55:00

i also don't have you added on bnet so sniping you to lose and 'prove im not hacking' is...logistically difficult

edit; ah yep thanks nemo

http://www.justin.tv/steve310/b/303884234

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

....right, so if i'm allowed to put up evidence to defend myself, here's a first person VOD, 55:00

i also don't have you added on bnet so sniping you to lose and 'prove im not hacking' is...logistically difficult

Evets, you forgot the link I think.

Targa, that's quite serious, could you not troll this time please ? You're far too subtle to your own good mate.

Edit : Well, there are a lot of video to watch and they are posted. The accusations have been given by 2 serious GMs to one another serious GM all respected members of the community.

It will need hard work to analyse it because if there is Map Hack it seems relatively well hidden I think. So better give time to time and see all the analysis that will come in the next few days on all the video. I will try to make my own thorough analysis but it will take time.

I know that's not easy for either of Muse, Timber, Evets and their clans because that's serious accusations, but stay calm and wait for good analysis (not only mine ofc) to react.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	asdfSchnitzel:

[FaDeEvetS]

fair enough nemo. I can upload replays against other players if wanted. my stream also has multiple games played on it now for referencing

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

fair enough nemo. I can upload replays against other players if wanted. my stream also has multiple games played on it now for referencing

I really dont think VODs of you streaming yourself proves anything as IF a person was map hacking theyd be rather foolish to leave the hacks enabled while they were streaming, Im not accusing you in any way, just saying you might want to come up with better evidence

Quick Comments

AxSGRiM:

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Arnor@CityHunter

I really dont think VODs of you streaming yourself proves anything as IF a person was map hacking theyd be rather foolish to leave the hacks enabled while they were streaming, Im not accusing you in any way, just saying you might want to come up with better evidence

It's all good piece of evidence. For example if a suspect move from a replay is shown on a Vod of the stream it can clear it.
I will look at it closely tomorrow (for me), promise, first thing I do when I get up. Remember someone is innocent until proven guilty (or very suspect).

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Nemo

It's all good piece of evidence. For example if a suspect move from a replay is shown on a Vod of the stream it can clear it.
I will look at it closely tomorrow (for me), promise, first thing I do when I get up. Remember someone is innocent until proven guilty (or very suspect).

innocent until proven guilty is not the case in many countries (particularly in criminal law) where the onus of proof falls to the accused not the accuser, a little off topic but still something interesting to note! :P

[FaDeEvetS]

but...if you're capable of performing at or around that level why would you maphack? is what i was going at

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	FaDeAudacity:

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

but...if you're capable of performing at or around that level why would you maphack? is what i was going at

fair point, I have no idea why people map hack, in the FPS communities even the best players who are "proven at LAN" aka you cant cheat at LAN events so proves you are good, have been caught hacking only month later, who knows why people cheat lol

[[TA]LoSt]

I reckon the worst possible thing you could of done was start streaming after the accusations to try and "prove" you don't. If you had VODs of the games you played that they're uploading then it would be perfect, but streaming now is pointless.

. It became addicting to use the hack it made things so much easier even though my level was high without it.

^ Quote from a reformed maphacker and respected member of the community. Saying "if you're capable of performing at or around that level why would you maphack" is stupid.

Good thing is that you're a respected community member, and whether you maphacked or not it won't be proven without replays from a long time ago as I'm sure any maphackers who get accused here will almost definitely stop using the hacks from now on.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what anyone is saying, there's nothing that needs to be added that hasn't already been said - I'm just saying I think you handled this the wrong way to clear your name.

Quick Comments

	EXCL:	yeah i agree :)
	cRSenSei:	this quote seems rather familiar
	deL:	I wouldn't trust a quote from a disgusting hacker like the guy who said that.
	Volition:	great post, insightful and adding to the discussion

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by [TA]LoSt

I reckon the worst possible thing you could of done was start streaming after the accusations to try and "prove" you don't. If you had VODs of the games you played that they're uploading then it would be perfect, but streaming now is pointless.


^ Quote from a reformed maphacker and respected member of the community. Saying "if you're capable of performing at or around that level why would you maphack" is stupid.

Good thing is that you're a respected community member, and whether you maphacked or not it won't be proven without replays from a long time ago as I'm sure any maphackers who get accused here will almost definitely stop using the hacks from now on.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what anyone is saying, there's nothing that needs to be added that hasn't already been said - I'm just saying I think you handled this the wrong way to clear your name.

I thought he handled it well, he just kept playing and didnt kick up a big fuss about the accusation. By proving and streaming his game, hes just going about his normal regime and reminding ppl that he streams and doesnt need to hack to play.

On the other hand, accusing ppl of hacking after 1-2 game without a replay that suggests a blatant hack was used isnt the best way to handle it. I mean even if it was proven that Evets is not a hacker, ur essentially leaving a mark on his name. Ppl will obviously link their thoughts to a ?Hacker the next time they mention his name or play against him.

[FaDeEvetS]

I've had alot of irl shit going on lately, i won't go into all the details as this isn't an excuse it's just an explanation.
I woke up feeling pretty depressed as I have been lately (honestly, i'm not trying to excuse what i did or ask for pity or anything, i'm just explaining WHY i felt like i needed to do it), and really just felt like....shitting on someone and seeing how stupid the hacks were.
(This was the first ladder game against protimber)
This is why i was so unstable in the game, letting hellions in etc as hacking is actually pretty distracting (i imagine you get used to it) and this is why i looked so incredibly suss, as i'm not used to hiding hacks (or hacking), although i did one other time back in the diamond league.
I know this was really stupid to do, especially as i was a somewhat trusted member of the community and i honestly don't know if that can be restored.
I would however like to emphasise that it was just this one ladder game and i have not cheated in any competitions either formal or otherwise.
I really wasn't sure if i'd be able to own up to this, and i'm sorry to the entire community (especially timber).
I know no matter what i say/do/show it'll be extremely difficult to ever see anything i do or have done as not being hacked. With this in mind, If fade wishes me to leave i'll understand, as i dont want this stigma to be associated with any other members.

I'm sorry, i know hacking is a low-life shit thing to do and i hope that eventually i can earn some form of trust back.


EDIT: I'm also extremely sorry to the people who were defending me, as i know I've ruined alot of the trust and friendship they provided me

Quick Comments

	deL:	FaDeSenSei
	Volition:	At least you were a man and owned up to it- late, but you did it.
	FaDeBadger:
	FaDeGofire:	what a joke
	TAScarecrow:	fake sincerity: a useful skill toi have
	TAriiChard:	.....
	iM yang:	Multiple replays posted, you say only once..
	faithHunter:	Takes balls to admit that you were hacking, considering all the things you have to put in line.

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

I've had alot of irl shit going on lately, i won't go into all the details as this isn't an excuse it's just an explanation.
I woke up feeling pretty depressed as I have been lately (honestly, i'm not trying to excuse what i did or ask for pity or anything, i'm just explaining WHY i felt like i needed to do it), and really just felt like....shitting on someone and seeing how stupid the hacks were.
(This was the first ladder game against protimber)
This is why i was so unstable in the game, letting hellions in etc as hacking is actually pretty distractingyou (i imagine get used to it) and this is why i looked so incredibly suss, as i'm not used to hiding hacks (or hacking), although i did one other time back in the diamond league.
I know this was really stupid to do, especially as i was a somewhat trusted member of the community and i honestly don't know if that can be restored.
I would however like to emphasise that it was just this one ladder game and i have not cheated in any competitions either formal or otherwise.
I really wasn't sure if i'd be able to own up to this, and i'm sorry to the entire community (especially timber).
I know no matter what i say/do/show it'll be extremely difficult to ever see anything i do or have done as not being hacked. With this in mind, If fade wishes me to leave i'll understand, as i dont want this stigma to be associated with any other members.

I'm sorry, i know hacking is a low-life shit thing to do and i hope that eventually i can earn some form of trust back.


EDIT: I'm also extremely sorry to the people who were defending me, as i know I've ruined alot of the trust and friendship they provided me

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically you're trying to say that you've only hacked in ONE ladder game(Against Timber) right? Just asking out of curiosity, since I've only met you on ladder once.

P.S. Having shit IRL does not justify/entitle you to do screw with others by doing a "low-life shit thing". Everyone goes through tons of shit IRL on a regular basis.

P.P.S You're killing E-sports

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

I've had alot of irl shit going on lately, i won't go into all the details as this isn't an excuse it's just an explanation.
I woke up feeling pretty depressed as I have been lately (honestly, i'm not trying to excuse what i did or ask for pity or anything, i'm just explaining WHY i felt like i needed to do it), and really just felt like....shitting on someone and seeing how stupid the hacks were.
(This was the first ladder game against protimber)
This is why i was so unstable in the game, letting hellions in etc as hacking is actually pretty distracting (i imagine you get used to it) and this is why i looked so incredibly suss, as i'm not used to hiding hacks (or hacking), although i did one other time back in the diamond league.
I know this was really stupid to do, especially as i was a somewhat trusted member of the community and i honestly don't know if that can be restored.
I would however like to emphasise that it was just this one ladder game and i have not cheated in any competitions either formal or otherwise.
I really wasn't sure if i'd be able to own up to this, and i'm sorry to the entire community (especially timber).
I know no matter what i say/do/show it'll be extremely difficult to ever see anything i do or have done as not being hacked. With this in mind, If fade wishes me to leave i'll understand, as i dont want this stigma to be associated with any other members.

I'm sorry, i know hacking is a low-life shit thing to do and i hope that eventually i can earn some form of trust back.


EDIT: I'm also extremely sorry to the people who were defending me, as i know I've ruined alot of the trust and friendship they provided me

Im very shocked to read this, but also glad that u admitted to this. Anyone who has defended you(myself and i assume pig) would. Im in shock right now as i really believed u played very well when i watched ur stream.

Glad that u admitted to you, still a friend here if u ever need anything!

[TAEdarus]

Kinda gobsmacked to have to read that to be honest...

You may have lost some trust from people within the community but you haven't lost my respect for being honest about it.

Quick Comments

	FaDeEvetS:	thank you
	nirvAnA:	Agreed. Lost respect for EvetS but coming out to admit it like that takes balls.

[FaDeEvetS]

yes that's what i meant, and i know it doesnt make it alright. i wasn't providing an excuse just an explanation

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

yes that's what i meant, and i know it doesnt make it alright. i wasn't providing an excuse just an explanation

Then what about the games with the other players that have stated that you were hacking in this thread? They did also bring out proof...

[FaDeEvetS]

Originally Posted by Revenant

Then what about the games with the other players that have stated that you were hacking in this thread? They did also bring out proof...

those ones were inaccurate.
I know you have shitall reason to trust what i say, but that's..it

Edit; i have to go out, i'll comment/read the thread later

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

those ones were inaccurate.
I know you have shitall reason to trust what i say, but that's..it

Edit; i have to go out, i'll comment/read the thread later

Gahhh, sorry if I missed my point on the previous post. What I mean is, it doesn't seem logical for a person to hack only in one game, and not want to repeatedly do it.

Secondly, what makes what your claims more unbelievable is because you did not own up to hacking(at all) when you started posting, and even tried to convince people otherwise. Brings down the trust that people had in you even more, and would have been good if you just confessed at the very first post that you made.

Sorry if I've been too harsh, and it's great that you came clean with it in the end.

Quick Comments

	[TA]LoSt:	Thats what I was saying in my post too, he incriminated himself further..
	TAriiChard:

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by Revenant

Gahhh, sorry if I missed my point on the previous post. What I mean is, it doesn't seem logical for a person to hack only in one game, and not want to repeatedly do it.

Secondly, what makes what your claims more unbelievable is because you did not own up to hacking(at all) when you started posting, and even tried to convince people otherwise. Brings down the trust that people had in you even more, and would have been good if you just confessed at the very first post that you made.

Sorry if I've been too harsh, and it's great that you came clean with it in the end.

He meant that today was his first time trying the hack.

[TAEdarus]

Honestly the only time I've ever cheated in games were single player ones where I just want to watch stuff die (shooters and the like)... Like Jedi Knight, spawn a bajillion Storm Troopers, godmode on, limb dismemberment on, slice slice!!

If you're in a bad way mentally / emotionally and just wanted a win / to feel a hulk smashing, do it against an AI because they don't hold grudges or judge you... its pretty unfair to tarnish someone else's record stats reputation whatever by using cheats to literally cheat them out of a deserved win.

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

Well said on the moral PoV

[lolwut]

I can understand your angry actions Evet's but hacking was the wrong thing to do. My opinion is neutral about you though because you had the balls to own up to it

[crAzerk]

@ Rev /Shortizz
Whatever it is, he has been named and shamed, and he has 'fessed up. Nothing else more to say really, I guess you can rub salt into the wounds by further expressing your disgust , etc, but, what for?

Quick Comments

	aLtShortizz:	Good point, ill leave it as it is. Not rubbing anything though =P
	x5.Revenant:	It's good that he had the guts to 'fess up, but it's debatable whether he comes clean with everything ^^

[TargA]

why are people being nice to this guy?

Quick Comments

	Imperial:	double standards are fun
	Volition:	We have all been in the spot. give him the benefit of the doubt and move on. but yeah give you rep!

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by TargA

why are people being nice to this guy?

It takes guts to own up after committing atrocity yo.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[TargA]

Originally Posted by Revenant

It takes guts to own up after committing atrocity yo.

it also takes retardation to hack and then deny it

[inFeZa]

edit: seems like I'm wrong D:
browsing on my phone... sorry X.X

[FaDeEvetS]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

I highly doubt fadeevets is a hacker.. Why would you apply for a sponsored team if you hacked....
imo its just good game sense, I mean what Terran isn't a cheesy bitch with early bunkers?

I did hack a ladder game earlier today. there's explanation/apology posts earlier in the thread

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

I highly doubt fadeevets is a hacker.. Why would you apply for a sponsored team if you hacked....
imo its just good game sense, I mean what Terran isn't a cheesy bitch with early bunkers?

read the thread properly mate, he admitted it.

I too don't understand why people are being nice when he initially first tried to deny it... there should be consequences

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:
	x5.Revenant:
	ROOT`iaguz:	Agreed with you and TargA. Hacking is vile, and he has to pay for that somehow.
	Bash:
	Zealo:	banned from tournaments?
	QEDJenkins:
	Fadey:
	deL:	Site ban imo (tourney inclusive)
	TAScarecrow:
	Imperial:
	Volition:	What do you want? his account deleted? it is a storm in a teacup
	Synizta:

[Nobunaga]

Well, I gotta say that this has been an entertaining day.

[inFeZa]

Ok I read his explanation... At least he isn't a full time hacker just to get to the top.. Oh well =/

[Welshy]

Well I can understand where evets is coming from, he had a very crud day and decided to screw around with hacks. As a fellow gamer this is unacceptable, but as another person who has been through some rough patches I can understand that he might not have been thinking properly during the time. A few years ago I was getting shit hanged on me by the *popular kids*, and I was like "lol whatever", I just let it roll off my back, I woke up feeling like crap one day and they pushed me and I cracked, I beat the living crap out of all of them, I wasnt htinking properly and what I did was wrong, my point being when you have baddays, when youre in a bad mindset it is hard and most of the time you dont even think about the bigger picture you just do. You can't excuse the hacking but I don't think its something so big as people to say 'ruining esports' or 'he should be punished' because at he end of the day it was one game where he was not thinking properly, he hacked a game, he then realised after that what he did was worng and stopped, he even admitted that he hacked.
This is just my opinion and me trying to look over the events as a gamer and as a person with human emotions the same as everyone else.
Sorry if this was a waste of time for some people to read.
glhf

Quick Comments

	asdfSchnitzel:	What the man says is true!
	nirvAnA:

[Peleus]

Seriously I really think FadeEvets should be ostracised from this community, kicked out of fade and never allowed to enter another tourny by sc2sea again.

If you're allowed to cheat, hack and then simply say "LOL sorry guys you caught me it was a one off I promise" then what type of message does it send for others that might be considering trying out hacks in the SEA community? It's ok as long as you say sorry after?

Sorry but I just despise hackers and ruining of the community that comes along with them. There needs to be consequences for doing it (life ban from blizzard as a start) and I don't think it matters if it's one game or a season. It should never be done for any reason.

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:
	deL:	I think a month ban from site and tourneys would be enough, as a 1st warning. If caught again indefinite ban.
	TAScarecrow:	if you're caught hacking should be a year imo
	MooZfY:
	Imperial:
	ProAnnn:	not so serious, maybe banned from tourneys but not the site?
	Rageboredguy:

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Seriously I really think FadeEvets should be ostracised from this community, kicked out of fade and never allowed to enter another tourny by sc2sea again.

If you're allowed to cheat, hack and then simply say "LOL sorry guys you caught me it was a one off I promise" then what type of message does it send for others that might be considering trying out hacks in the SEA community? It's ok as long as you say sorry after?

Sorry but I just despise hackers and ruining of the community that comes along with them. There needs to be consequences for doing it (life ban from blizzard as a start) and I don't think it matters if it's one game or a season. It should never be done for any reason.

How about you leave how FaDe handles the situation to FaDe. We will make our own decision and we don't need input from the masses.

Thanks.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	dont fuc k with THE BADGEEEER!!!!
	Maynarde:	The rebel king. He knows a thing or two.
	Flamga:	Well said
	RicocheT:	Badger got claws!
	Welshy:
	sRFullstop:
	Bash:
	AxSGRiM:	SC2SEA admins and Blizzard should deal with the rest though
	inFeZa:	Seems like badger wont... *glasses* let this issue fade away,.... YEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
	krycek:
	Nemo:	Exactly !
	nirvAnA:	Well said badger!! <3
	Volition:	SO GOOD - it is a game people - ruining the community, they arent bringing smallpox in! take a chill pill

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

How about you leave how FaDe handles the situation to FaDe. We will make our own decision and we don't need input from the masses.

Thanks.

FaDe will decide how to deal with him, and no I don't expect you to take input from the masses, regardless I'm still more than happy to state my opinion on the matter.

Perhaps though it might highlight that your decision about him has an impact on what some of the 'masses' think of FaDe.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

I liked this clarification too

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

FaDe will decide how to deal with him, and no I don't expect you to take input from the masses, regardless I'm still more than happy to state my opinion on the matter.

Perhaps though it might highlight that your decision about him has an impact on what some of the 'masses' think of FaDe.

Feel free to state your opinion.
Just don't feel bad if we completely ignore/disregard it.
I have faith in the FaDe leadership to do what is right and I'll back their decision 100%.

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:	Should let Blizzard deal with his account though.
	Shieldz:	so ******* fail man just let blizzard deal with hackers. rofl
	Volition:	To counter Shieldz: how fade deals with their business is their business. no need to neg rep a guy with respect for his clan leaders

[dippa]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

How about you leave how FaDe handles the situation to FaDe. We will make our own decision and we don't need input from the masses.

Hacking doesn't affect just FaDe, it affects the entire community, so how about you let us collectively set a precedent for how to best deal with the scum of the earth, thanks.

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:
	deL:
	AxSGRiM:
	TAScarecrow:
	FaDeBadger:	Read my post again please
	nirvAnA:	agree with badger here
	Volition:	scum of the earth? maybe you should get out more...
	simon:	exactly! this is bigger than fade!
	TCPKiaSu:	fade handles the situation about kicking or not. everything else is left for blizzard and the community to handle

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by dippa

Hacking doesn't affect just FaDe, it affects the entire community, so how about you let us collectively set a precedent for how to best deal with the scum of the earth, thanks.

The treatment of EvetS due to hacking does affect FaDe. Kindly leave your opinions at the door thanks

Quick Comments

deL:

You're making it worse for FaDe :(

[mGMUSE]

Refer to this post on page 1 for replay + analysis: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55234&postcount=20

I can tell you on the multiple times ive played fadeesteve in season2 and season3 he always seems suspicious to me, ive always been able to tell maphackers/wallackers and such easily since i was young and have almost never been wrong about it

I remember him going 40-5 or something for the start of one season. Im extremely sure that game against timber was one of mny many mny many many many many many many many many many games he has maphacked in.

Quick Comments

	sRAnti:	While I think it's funny that you've always been able to tell hacks since you were young, enough people know and trust FaDeEvetS to know that this is not the case
	Nemo:	He said it in the first place. THANKS to Muse
	Xzacutionar:	nice, now i know who to call when I feel like the other person didnt deserve to win
	aztecx:	yeah, same here.
	TAScarecrow:	he did call it earlier, coincidence?
	FaDeBadger:	Map hacking detection is not a skill
	Volition:	literally, how can someone defend themselves based on your "evidence". dont just throw mud
	NvJazBas:	I believe this.

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

I can tell you on the multiple times ive played fadeesteve in season2 and season3 he always seems suspicious to me, ive always been able to tell maphackers/wallackers and such easily since i was young and have almost never been wrong about it

You just happen to have some sixth sense about these things?

Post proof, or stop stomping on him just because he hacked in one game.

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:	stop defending your clanmate like an idiot
	Shieldz:	******* idiots go fk ur self if ur going to freaking defend ur mate with nothin.
	EveMassacrisM:	This isn't smart
	NvJazBas:	^
	TCPKiaSu:	i understand whats it's like to defend a clan mate but this is isn't smart

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

You just happen to have some sixth sense about these things?

Post proof, or stop stomping on him just because he hacked in one game.

Yes.

and he's denying he hacked in that game 3 seasons ago against me, where the evidence is much more solid than timber's replay i believe

edit: apologies for my aggression wasnt intended, please take a look at my analysis and replay

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	What is this.. I don't even...
	ROOT`iaguz:	Oh **** me, you should work for blizz or something
	RicocheT:	this emotion says it all

[Eddie]

Disappointing news Always respected Evets as a team mate, and member of the community. He worked hard improving all the way up to the very top of SEA GM. He certainly has the skill and potential to be right up there. It is a shame that rightly or wrongly being a 'hacker' will take away some of that creditability and respect, but that's what you get i suppose.

At least he owned up to it.

Shall support the clan's standing on this whatever that may be. Evets is a nice and popular member of FaDe, always helping out players in the lower leagues and playing in team events, so hopefully everyone can get past this somehow, and Evets can work on regaining the communities faith/respect.

People make mistakes.

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	Good attitude
	Welshy:
	FaDeGofire:	we'll wait for meatex to come online before we decide
	nirvAnA:	100% agree
	mGGDaedalus:

[Flamga]

I do understand where evets comes from and I do agree it does get frustrating, and unfortunately it might take something like this to show everyone that it isnt the way for sure.

But I dont blame you, shit happens, it might take a while for the reprocussions to go away but im sure evets didnt post his failing lightly and will do everything he can to demonstrate that he has what it takes.

Im also sorry it came like this to you man.


I also think this is getting taken out of proportion :/ although I agree that these matters should be taken seriously I think something needs to be setup to deal with this.

All we can do is view our opinions and leave each clan to their players, and once a verdict has been reached leave it at that.

Quick Comments

	Bash:
	FaDeGofire:
	asdfSchnitzel:

[Bash]

He messed up, in a pretty big way, The main problem i can see is trust, everyone knows he's done it, so how can we trust that it'll never happen again? (other than what people tell us, i know his mates will stick up for him, as they probs should)

Its great that he came out and admitted it, and props for that, as far as i know he's only ever been an upstanding member of this site, i've never seen him being malicious/bm
That said though, if theres no punishment at all it sends the wrong message.. "Oh i'll just apologise and we'll be cool"

But if the punishment is too much (IE, lifetime ban) , then we lose a nice guy who ended out coming clean, which isnt encouraging anyone to right their own wrongs.
Idk, it's a headscratcher, FaDe/admins have their work cut out, good luck guys, i'm sure you'll come up with something Appropriate. ♥

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	well said
	EXCL:
	Flamga:
	PiG:	:)
	Welshy:
	asdfSchnitzel:
	Nemo:	Exactly
	nirvAnA:

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by RamboLicious

checked. Frankly this doesn't really prove that he's a cheater, he saw ur fast lings, slow expo, and u're a random player...
Certainly he can't be sure that u're going to cheese, but he could sense something.

I think we should have a clearer proof, guys

You don't build 6? cannons at your natural on a hunch that he's going all in from early ling speed. Also it's convenient that the only other possible scouting that he did would have been clicking his probe to scout inside the main, directly over the roach warren in the fog of war.

[TargA]

I think we need a certain bearded dwarf with an axe to settle this.

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	LOL.
	Stallion:	iaguz FIGHT!
	ROOT`iaguz:	The wrong axe in the right place can make all the difference, Mr TargA

[TAEdgE]

What is this I don't even..

Quick Comments

[TA]LoSt:

Always late to the party ^_^

[Rockstar]

I hacked once when I was about 14 playing Quake 2... It was called the ratbot and you'd run around shooting railguns out your asshole. It was pretty funny. There was also this one time I downloaded a hack for CS 1.5 or something, only because noone would tell me wtf player locator was, and I wanted to see it. After running around playing against bots with it on I came to the conclusion it was a fuckload harder trying to use it than it was to just play normally. Didn't actually ever use it in a server.

Hacking is completely and utterly ******* low. As low as you can go in any competitive game. It's like taking a dive in soccer, or punching someone in the face in a scrum... Or stealing money from the bank in monopoly. What do you get out of it? Sweet **** all.

Evets, If you honestly want to make amends for this stupid stupid decision, delete your account. Start a fresh one, upload every replay on your way back up.

[phoney]

Once admitted+proven to be cheating, just have to face the consequences and get closure.

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

Seems like badger wont... *glasses* let this issue fade away,.... YEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

Off topic, but best rep comment ever!

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by dippa

Hacking doesn't affect just FaDe, it affects the entire community, so how about you let us collectively set a precedent for how to best deal with the scum of the earth, thanks.

Badger was referring specifically to the comment that Peleus made about 'kicking evetS out of FaDe'. Naturally he wasn't happy about an outsider seemingly trying to dictate clan matters, hence his comment.

Of course, what happens from the outside is a different matter altogether. Whether the offenders will be banned from tournaments, etc would depend on the tournament admins such as Eddie, Baka, nirvAnA. We just have to wait for input from them then.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

This ^

[Maynarde]

FaDe decides EvetS' future in FaDe.

Blizzard decides the future of his account.

WE will decide if he is able to continue to participating in SC2sea tournaments. The answer will likely be "no", but there may be a chance that he will be allowed to return in the future. Everyone deserves a second chance but stuff like this shouldn't go un-punished.

I consider him a great guy and one of my good friends, but I am disappoint EvetS

Quick Comments

	EXCL:	nuf said
	NvRossi:	WISE
	Cute:	Wisdom
	Flamga:	amen
	MazEi:	wisetality
	deL:
	ToRSpartaz:	I like giving Rep :D
	AxSGRiM:
	TAriiChard:	why are you always right!
	Nemo:	Exactly too
	nirvAnA:	exactly!
	aLtMrFool:	BOSS MODE ON!

[krycek]

sad sad day for sea community, we are ripping ourselves apart

Quick Comments

	TAScarecrow:	no need for hyperbole
	TADivinity:	C,mon dude, you may as well say EvetS ruined e-sports

[Cordance]

Originally Posted by TCPkrycek

sad sad day for sea community, we are ripping ourselves apart

I disagree action is being taken by admins and moderators as stated. The issue in question happens out side of our Tournaments so they are still free from cheating. Given you have to submit all replays if you win the CO and they are on the website unless there is a good reason for them not being released (up coming major event then they are delayed). The only thing in this thread is thoughts an opinions they are not all going to be the same but you can still get along with people with out the same opinions.

[ToRSpartaz]

Seriously this issue is one that effects the community, dont let your opinions become influenced by eaach other. Seriously leave it to the admins and Blizz and those members of FaDe to decide EvetS fate... Tbh input from everyone else isnt contributing to the situation. Its just adding fuel to the fire so call it peace and let Maynarde and Nir and who ever short it out.

Dont destroy relationships over an individual its pointless and not worth it. The activities of the individual dont reflect a clan. So keep view points and ideas to ones self.

Quick Comments

	JoFritzMD:
	Flamga:
	asdfSchnitzel:
	PiG:	hi5
	mGMUSE:	i was wrongly aggressive i apologize
	nirvAnA:

[aztecx]

Teamliquid bans hackers of their site permanently. A top 2v2 player who also made GM on NA with a sick record in season 1 finally admitted to hacking after 5+ replays were posted and detailed analysis was conducted (some morons also spent a week or so trying to defend him). He was permanetly banned from Teamliquid. as was one of his friends who vouched so strongly for him that even insisted if his friend really hacks the mods should ban the both of them.

I honestly believe that the same punishment should apply here to FaDeNooB, which includes a permanent ban from future SEA tournaments. If someone didn't confront him about this, he would have most likely continued cheating and ruining the game for all those people playing on SEA.

I also think that FaDeBadger should be banned because he's setting a horrible example to not just his clan mates, but also everyone that is part of the community.

I remember when I was 16 I spent months gathering replays of cheaters in the Australian Quake 2 scene, and after they finally admitted to it I only saw them get banned for four days. Some people do find it easier to distinguish cheaters from others, just like Muse said in one of his earlier posts. I have no sympathy for piece of shit hackers and I think they deserve everything negative that comes their way.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Ban Badger? No.
	FaDeBadger:	What is this... I don't even...
	EXCL:	starting with name calling now.... sad
	ToRSmotPokingFish:	too far...
	sRAnti:	Calm down
	RicocheT:	Nup nup
	ToRDeathsFang:	umad?
	mGGDaedalus:	don't see TL banning TT1, dimaga etc.
	mGMUSE:	re rep

[Zealo]

i was kinda expecting some sort of penalty to be handed out by the admins by now, i'll be pretty disappointed if there are no consequences

[FaDeEvetS]

Originally Posted by Zealo

i was kinda expecting some sort of penalty to be handed out by the admins by now, i'll be pretty disappointed if there are no consequences

Some sort of ban from online events is kind've a given.

[Nemo]

Well, giving time to time was indeed what to do. Let's remember it next time it happens.

I watched the Timber replay yesterday and made many screenshots I intended to post. I had still no clear conclusion about it apart from one move super super suspect (counter of the doom drop before seeing it). Even the 25min "Muta intercept" seemed quite legit when watching it very closely. All that to say it's uneasy to spot Map Hack from a good player. Only multiple replay and very precise analysis can show it.

Evets has admitted cheating. Frankly it's doubtful he has done it once only as he says and analyze of Muse replay might be useful to do. I will check them when I have some time. It's now less urgent anyway. I will do this not to put Evets head even deeper in the mud but to respect Muse call.

Let all remember that Muse then Timber showed a lot of courage in putting the subject on the table. You put yourself at great "reputation" risk when exposing a respected member of the community, just remember the past ...

So I would like to thanks you both for having the courage to post the replays and make the accusation. Big, big props to you, the community owes you a lot.

Now for Evets. I had and still have a very good opinion of him and consider him as a friend. We all have done bad things in our lives, things we are ashamed of. So I won't throw him the first rock. I prefer 100 times someone who cheats and admits it than someone who cheats and doesn't admit it and then lets all his friends who defend him look bad. Of course I prefer 100 times the guy that doesn't cheat at all in the first place ...

That being said, there must be of course official punishment. He has to "pay the price to the society" as part of redeeming himself.

As Maynarde said, there must be punishment by the clan and punishment by the community. It might be a common punishment.

I think Meatex, leader of Fade, and Nirvana, the closer we have to a community leader, must discuss it and decide an appropriate set of punishments. My ideas on the subject:

• Don't be too harsh. That's only a game after all.
• No life ban, no more (an no less) than 1 or 2 month ban. We need Evets in this community.
• Ban him from competition but not from the site. He needs to be able to talk to us. He never behaved badly here.
• I like community work as punishment. He could make the 50% of the Replay analysis for example for a month (I need some help there), or write some article for TGM or refresh some. Working for others is the best redeeming action you can think of.

As usual, it's only my opinion on the moment, I keep my mind open to other's ideas.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	perfect
	EXCL:
	Zealo:	very reasonable
	wolf:
	asdfSchnitzel:
	Synizta:	Nemo keeping the clamness around ^.^

[Meatex]

A statement from the sc2sea team, Clan FaDe and EvetS is coming in due time
Just so you know that there is movement on this issue

[nirvAnA]

Sequoia played sheepy on his smurf. He watched the replay. Seq had 2 groups of blink stalkers and did a multi prong attack. His player camera was looking at just one area while BOTH groups were being controlled with perfect blink micro simultaneously. He doesn't even attempt to hide it, he just blatantly hacks. I've heard this from many sources including jazbas etc whos integrity and judgement i don't doubt.

---

Official Stance on map hacking:

And yes, it is exactly as what Maynade has said.

• The clan decides the player's future in their clan.
• Blizzard decides the future of his account.
• SC2SEA decides if he is able to continue participating in SC2sea tournaments.

Had a discussion with the team and we felt a standard 3 month ban from all tournaments including SEACL #2 would be adequate punishment for the "standard maphacker", but not a complete site/account ban from the forums. We are not an inflexible bureaucratic organisation and will take each individual case into account. Bearing in mind evets history of being a good poster/streamer and well mannered and liked in the community, as well as coming out to admit it, this sentence would probably be reduced to a minimum 2 month site ban for all our tournaments. Therefore he can only play again in our tournaments in March, 2012. Meatex has decided to ban him from all FaDe clan wars as well, and will suggest some form of "community service" to be done which will be announced shortly in his statement.

This morning he woke up a well respected member of the FaDe and the SC2SEA community, tonight he goes to bed held in a very different regard. I feel the hacking stigma that will follow him for the rest of his sc2 days as well as the shame in this thread and sc2sea+fade bans is punishment enough. He is well aware that what he did is wrong, and I also wish him the best in his IRL issues and hope they get resolved. As nemo said, there is no need to ostracise him or tear him apart, and I'm always one to believe that people can change for the better. I'll be looking forward to his "community services" which has to be something substantial and at the same time we want to send a message that hacking will not be tolerated. So any repeat offenders will be life banned from sc2sea (forums+tournaments).

A statement from meatex and evets will come tomorrow.

Quick Comments

	Zealo:	thankyou for taking such a strong yet reasonable stance :)
	wolf:
	Nemo:	Good
	AxSGRiM:

[mGGDaedalus]

Meatex will eventually be releasing a statement, but I think people just need to keep things in perspective. Yes evets did something bad and yes there obviously will be some form of punishment (not to mention the fact that he's lost the trust of a large portion of the community).

But there are different tiers of messing up. A guy who uses a hack in one ladder game for S&G vs a guy who hacks all the time and/or hacks in tournament events, are very different cases and should be treated as such. Sure, you can say 'he did it once who's to say he didn't do it more', and that's not an easy situation to resolve, but I just think people need to put the severity of the situation in perspective before grabbing their pitchforks. (Disclaimer yes I'm his clan mate and I'm biased, but if I thought he was scum I wouldn't deny it just cause he was in my clan).

edit: In response to grim, I was saying we needed to judge the situation based off the information at hand. There was no evidence of further hacking, I was simply saying if you want to accuse him of more than that, please provide some evidence. Obviously that's been done now.

Quick Comments

AxSGRiM:

Hacking is severe, he did it once who's to say he didn't do it more?

[Sanctify]

of course it was only one ladder game. sucks when you use a hack just one time and get caught with it right ?

also he was accused by 2 people separately of hacking, before he admitted it - and he denied it.

But hey, this is what makes 'esports' the joke it is.

Quick Comments

PiG:

the guy on the video game forum says esports is a joke...

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Sanctify

of course it was only one ladder game. sucks when you use a hack just one time and get caught with it right ?

also he was accused by 2 people separately of hacking, before he admitted it - and he denied it.

But hey, this is what makes 'esports' the joke it is.

Exactly, and the only evidence for it only 'being one game' is the word of someone who was hacking and previously lied about hacking in the first place. Besides the fact there are several people in this thread detailing how they think his play was suspect on several different occasions.

Quick Comments

Rage:

not sure why no one else has said this - you don't trust someone who previously lied just because they really truly swore they seriously didn't lie this time.

[MooZfY]

+ Show +

[TAScarecrow]

Very lenient, it's hard to believe the only game he ever hacked in was the one where he got caught. Muse calling him out on the first page + the initial lying/defence makes the confession look more like calculated damage control. Great message to send to people: if you do get caught hacking, admit to the games cited and say it was only this once for a slap on the wrist.\

edit: at the very least he could've uploaded a complete ladder rep pack from last season, instead he offered a 55 min stream VOD which proved nothing

[Volition]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Very lenient, it's hard to believe the only game he ever hacked in was the one where he got caught. Muse calling him out on the first page + the initial lying/defence makes the confession look more like calculated damage control. Great message to send to people: if you do get caught hacking, admit to the games cited and say it was only this once for a slap on the wrist.

Well what punishment would you believe is reasonable? a 9 week break seems more than reasonable to me, given what has happened to his reputation through this thread. whether or not he has hacked more than one game is irrelevant - as you will see him as a hacker forever.

So, what do you think is a just punishment that should be handed out by us as a community?

Should we rely on knee jerk reactions - such as those that have been posted throughout the thread? or should we use this thread as a message to the hackers - we are a community, and we will find you and report you to your clan and blizzard, which is truly all we have in our power to do.

Volition

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:
	nirvAnA:	Yea I believe this thread already sends an adequate message to hackers on what will happen to you. Hero to Zero and all.
	Nemo:	+1

[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by Volition

Well what punishment would you believe is reasonable? a 9 week break seems more than reasonable to me, given what has happened to his reputation through this thread. whether or not he has hacked more than one game is irrelevant - as you will see him as a hacker forever.

So, what do you think is a just punishment that should be handed out by us as a community?

Should we rely on knee jerk reactions - such as those that have been posted throughout the thread? or should we use this thread as a message to the hackers - we are a community, and we will find you and report you to your clan and blizzard, which is truly all we have in our power to do.

Volition

Agreed with Dippa, 6 months to a year seems reasonable. Hacking's the gaming equivalent of 1st degree murder as far as i'm concerned. Fade's response is piss weak, the few that are caught should be made examples of. No forum ban is also bloody soft for a gaming community.

I'lm sure hackers are shaking in their boots. "You're unlikely to get caught unless you admit it; your clanmates will support you throughout and if you come clean we'll be super nice about it and give you some community work to do."

All this thread says is "Don't get caught twice".

[FaDeBadger]

With the exception of Meatex's statement on FaDe's side of this situation it's starting to be like beating a dead horse no?

Some people won't believe it was the only game he hacked, some will. Never going to convince people otherwise. Let it go.

Quick Comments

stalking you:

well said

[FaDeGofire]

If he has hacked in other games then I hope others will post more replays to prove it. If it is true then of course a much heavier punishment should be handed out (since it would be the second time lying in this thread). Until then, I will believe evets' admission and i find the punishment to be appropriate.

[dippa]

Coming from other communities, I wouldn't describe the 3 month ban as "harsh", although I'm glad that some form of ban has been instituted.

Having seen the Australian and New Zealand Counter-Strike community completely torn to shreds by a lack of willingness to remove hackers from the scene, I'd favour a much stronger ban - 12 months minimum, if not a complete removal from all competitions for life in lieu of the attempted "defence" and the lies that came with it.

SC2 in SEA is so much larger than every other game we've had over the last ten years, with Counter-Strike being the only possible exception. The community is large enough to withstand the permanent, or at least semi-permanent removal of one player in order to maintain integrity.

You can't put a price on setting a good example. It's not just the fact that he wasted everybody's time and effort by forcing us (the community) to expose him, but the additional time wasted by playing in games that have been revealed to be nothing but a complete farce.

Most gamers aren't little kids anymore. We're adults with little time to spare, an absolutely precious commodity. Get rid of this obnoxious little parasite and send out a proper message that hacking will not be tolerated in any way shape or form.

I don't feel the punishment does that. If you want to hack, you should do so on the understanding that you will not be allowed to interact or compete with the community (since the act of hacking, and lying about it, is actively undermining everything an online community stands for).

Quick Comments

	TAScarecrow:
	Peleus:
	Sanctify:
	x5.Revenant:	There should be a punishment imposed for "attempted defence" too..but oh well! Live and let live.

[Volition]

Originally Posted by dippa

Coming from other communities, I wouldn't describe the 3 month ban as "harsh", although I'm glad that some form of ban has been instituted.

Having seen the Australian and New Zealand Counter-Strike community completely torn to shreds by a lack of willingness to remove hackers from the scene, I'd favour a much stronger ban - 12 months minimum, if not a complete removal from all competitions for life in lieu of the attempted "defence" and the lies that came with it.

SC2 in SEA is so much larger than every other game we've had over the last ten years, with Counter-Strike being the only possible exception. The community is large enough to withstand the permanent, or at least semi-permanent removal of one player in order to maintain integrity.

You can't put a price on setting a good example. It's not just the fact that he wasted everybody's time and effort by forcing us (the community) to expose him, but the additional time wasted by playing in games that have been revealed to be nothing but a complete farce.

Most gamers aren't little kids anymore. We're adults with little time to spare, an absolutely precious commodity. Get rid of this obnoxious little parasite and send out a proper message that hacking will not be tolerated in any way shape or form.

I don't feel the punishment does that. If you want to hack, you should do so on the understanding that you will not be allowed to interact or compete with the community (since the act of hacking, and lying about it, is actively undermining everything an online community stands for).

Interesting rhetoric - we should have at least a 12 month ban for a guy that has made a few posts then admitted that he was in the wrong? you are overestimating the pull of the sc2sea community. to be banned from this community is not to have your account deleted from the game etc.

Evets has said he has done the wrong thing, the punishment has been handed down from the people in control, yet the complaints come. why.

you know that from this point on, every single game that Evets plays in the future is going to be reviewed suspiciously - even when he makes good judgement calls he is going to be called a hacker.

I think we should be focusing our efforts on the amazing things that sc2sea has to offer instead of beating this deadhorse into submission. once again, why.

Volition

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	that and getting 12 months of exile is as good as never touching sc2 again
	PiG:	the voice of reason speaks

[dippa]

Originally Posted by Volition

Interesting rhetoric - we should have at least a 12 month ban for a guy that has made a few posts then admitted that he was in the wrong? you are overestimating the pull of the sc2sea community. to be banned from this community is not to have your account deleted from the game etc.

Evets has said he has done the wrong thing, the punishment has been handed down from the people in control, yet the complaints come. why.

you know that from this point on, every single game that Evets plays in the future is going to be reviewed suspiciously - even when he makes good judgement calls he is going to be called a hacker.

I think we should be focusing our efforts on the amazing things that sc2sea has to offer instead of beating this deadhorse into submission. once again, why.

Volition

I understand SC2SEA can't prevent people from playing the game, but they can make a stance and set the standards for being a member of the community.

Just because he will come under scrutiny in the future is not in any way recompense for wasting people's time and enjoyment with hacks. If I offered you the opportunity to play a game against someone who was hacking or someone who wasn't, what would you choose? The game ceases to be enjoyable when your opponents are tracking your every move.

Also, just because punishment has been doled out and an apology has been provided - which was not in any way, shape or form forthcoming until his lies were well and truly exposed - doesn't mean further discussion on the topic is unwarranted.

Having a strong community is part of the wonderful things SC2SEA can offer, and it's everyone's job to safeguard that. This is the perfect opportunity for the community to lay down a precedent for the future; if you consider that a "complaint", then I can do nothing more but disagree with your sentiments in the strongest possible terms.

[Volition]

Originally Posted by dippa

I understand SC2SEA can't prevent people from playing the game, but they can make a stance and set the standards for being a member of the community.

Just because he will come under scrutiny in the future is not in any way recompense for wasting people's time and enjoyment with hacks. If I offered you the opportunity to play a game against someone who was hacking or someone who wasn't, what would you choose? The game ceases to be enjoyable when your opponents are tracking your every move.

Also, just because punishment has been doled out and an apology has been provided - which was not in any way, shape or form forthcoming until his lies were well and truly exposed - doesn't mean further discussion on the topic is unwarranted.

Having a strong community is part of the wonderful things SC2SEA can offer, and it's everyone's job to safeguard that. This is the perfect opportunity for the community to lay down a precedent for the future; if you consider that a "complaint", then I can do nothing more but disagree with your sentiments in the strongest possible terms.

wasting people's time and enjoyment? If that is literally all that is wasted, then i fail to see how we can disagree in the strongest possible terms.

At the end of the day, this is a game and we play it for enjoyment, as an enjoyable way of spending our time. To waste that is to waste our enjoyment and time - really not that precious commodities in the grand scheme of things.

it truly feels like a storm in a teacup - if someone was hacking and beat me, well good for them i suppose. What further harm has it REALLY caused you?

I am not defending hacking, or evets, but i feel that the "wrecking the game 6-12 month ban" and "should go to hell" moniker has been thrown out too much in this thread. It is time we all got back to doing something beneficial for the the community and focusing on the good stuff. Nirvana has handed out the punishment, to continue to complain is to be opposed to the decision - and at the end of the day if you dont like it you do not need to be a part of the community if you find this decision does not "safeguard" the commuinity in the appropriate manner.

volition

Quick Comments

	TAScarecrow:	we know it's you, stop signing
	Brultze:
	nirvAnA:	I think he does that cause he used to it being a lawyer and all haha
	simon:	you are far to starry eyed sir
	Welshy:	Destroying people 1 post at a time

[EveMassacrisM]

I've noticed him hacking in a few games way back in season 3. JazBas also said he knew EvetS was a hacker. Clearly this guy didn't just hack 1 game like he claimed.

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

I've noticed him hacking in a few games way back in season 3. JazBas also said he knew EvetS was a hacker. Clearly this guy didn't just hack 1 game like he claimed.

You can't just say you noticed him hacking, post proof please. As for the Jazbas incident I believe that was sorted out at the time by Meatex, although I wasn't in the clan at that stage so don't know details.

[ToRDeathsFang]

In response to dippa, i would completely agree with everything you're saying, if the person hacking is a complete douche (ie someone like Deezer for example) In which case i'd be happy to see that person permanently banned and never seen again.

But since the person in question is Evets, a well respected member of the community and someone who has donated a fair bit of his time to the community, combined with the fact which he had the balls to own up to it, i think there should be some leniency. He, more than most people would deserve a second chance.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[dippa]

Originally Posted by DeathsFang

In response to dippa, i would completely agree with everything you're saying, if the person hacking is a complete douche (ie someone like Deezer for example) In which case i'd be happy to see that person permanently banned and never seen again.

But since the person in question is Evets, a well respected member of the community and someone who has donated a fair bit of his time to the community, combined with the fact which he had the balls to own up to it, i think there should be some leniency. He, more than most people would deserve a second chance.

That doesn't work. He can't be a well respected person IF HE DECIDED TO CHEAT.

Also, he didn't have the balls to own up to it; he was exposed and decided to lie, only choosing to admit the truth after his defence was fractured with evidence to the contrary.

His actions shows that he's obviously lacking in principle; I can't imagine how anyone could still hold him in high regard (beyond close friends) after all of that.

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:	the reason i'm still posting is because his explanation is STILL a lie
	stalking you:

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by dippa

That doesn't work. He can't be a well respected person IF HE DECIDED TO CHEAT.

Also, he didn't have the balls to own up to it; he was exposed and decided to lie, only choosing to admit the truth after his defence was fractured with evidence to the contrary.

His actions shows that he's obviously lacking in principle; I can't imagine how anyone could still hold him in high regard (beyond close friends) after all of that.

keep in mind the ban for events applies only for SC2SEA, people who run their own events e.g. Dox, deL, Eddie, frequency and myself may have their own views towards hackers and given the recent emergence of hacking, event admins will need to review their policies on the matter

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Basically it happened on our SC2SEA skype group like this - Eddie suggested the 3 month ban. All the mods agreed.

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by dippa

Also, he didn't have the balls to own up to it; he was exposed and decided to lie, only choosing to admit the truth after his defence was fractured with evidence to the contrary.

This is actually quite incorrect. If you look back through the thread you will see several posts, most notably from PiG outlining exactly how he thought the replay was inconclusive at least. If anything, he was on the way to being cleared as "that game was a little suss but nothing we can prove".

He's got balls to admit it after it looked like, for the most part he would, "get away with it".

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:	stop being so biased
	simon:	i grow even more frustrated after each post of yours i read -_-;;

[AxSGRiM]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

This is actually quite incorrect. If you look back through the thread you will see several posts, most notably from PiG outlining exactly how he thought the replay was inconclusive at least. If anything, he was on the way to being cleared as "that game was a little suss but nothing we can prove".

He's got balls to admit it after it looked like, for the most part he would, "get away with it".

lol IMO you're being overly biased, it sounds like you're saying it's a good thing that he should have just gotten away with hacking. This is the sort of statement that promotes hacking because you can get away with it. Even if he did admit it, hacking in the first place is almost 100x more wrong and the punishment IMO was too lenient, but I can understand that we're a growing community and some of the rules haven't been set yet due to this being the first sort of "big person in the community got hacking" case we've had.

Notice he tried to defend himself in the beginning and then just owned up to it? Does that takes balls, or is he just shit-scared he didn't want the punishment to be even more severe? You tell me.

Quick Comments

Shieldz:

so true ur just biased

[ToRSpartaz]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

This is actually quite incorrect. If you look back through the thread you will see several posts, most notably from PiG outlining exactly how he thought the replay was inconclusive at least. If anything, he was on the way to being cleared as "that game was a little suss but nothing we can prove".

He's got balls to admit it after it looked like, for the most part he would, "get away with it".

"Im a dwarf and im digging a hole, diggy diggy hole... diggy diggy hole"

Stop arguing, just leave it as is ^^ your not making it any better for yourselves. If people drop this case now, I for one would be a hell of a lot better. Wouldn't you? Just chill man

Quick Comments

	mGGDaedalus:	This is out of context in light of recent developments
	PiG:
	TAScarecrow:
	ROOT`iaguz:	He's not a Dwarf...
	mGMUSE:
	AxSGRiM:
	Shieldz:
	SPGDoG:	took that words straight out of my mouth :)

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by Spartaz

"Im a dwarf and im digging a hole, diggy diggy hole... diggy diggy hole"

Stop arguing, just leave it as is ^^ your not making it any better for yourselves. If people drop this case now, I for one would be a hell of a lot better. Wouldn't you? Just chill man

If you actually follow through the whole thread, you'll notice since the new evidence has been posted/brought to light no one has defended him or said anything. It's the admin's call not ours. We acted right on the information we had at the time and our past dealings with him. It's over our heads now.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:
	TADivinity:	But you were a rude dickhead to many people - whether your defending was justified or not
	ToRSpartaz:	Divinity you are a boss <3
	AxSGRiM:	divinity fighting
	Shieldz:	so true divinity
	SPGDoG:	i agree with divinity

[Sanctify]

Accused of hacking, denying it, fade defends him, admits it, lies, fade still defending him and trying to bullshit, all being retards and unwilling to openly accept the facts and be honest.

Face it its known by everyone beyond reasonable doubt, even if not proven straight out, that he's a hacker, and not just for 'one game.'

But hey why does it matter? He's friends with some top players and has a FaDe to pretend to have authority in the community and defend/comtinue bullshitting. How noble and honest of him to admit to using hacks once.

Pathetic community.

Quick Comments

	EveMassacrisM:	Very pathetic indeed.
	nirvAnA:	punishment has already been served. do police still cut off hands of thieves? I think not
	MooZfY:	Hey! we're not a pathetic community :(
	dippa:	there's nothing "noble" in being forced to admit to cheating, wish more people understood this.
	TAScarecrow:
	FaDeBadger:	Pathetic post from a pathetic person
	Imperial:	hear hear!
	Nemo:	Don't call us pathetic please. Really.
	mGMUSE:	agreed
	RicocheT:	No sir. Don't call the community pathetic either.
	simon:
	asdfSchnitzel:	Thats just harsh
	EXCL:	not needed
	:	here's more pathetic rep
	Welshy:	If you don't like the decisions of the Admins of sc2sea gtfo then
	ToRSpartaz:	SPAM REP <3
	Rage:	i don't like that you called the community pathetic, but the rest is spot on.
	Bash:	This post is kinda sad.
	nard:	:( so sad
	TCPKiaSu:	agree with rage
	stalking you:	I dont like you insulting us :(

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by Sanctify

Accused of hacking, denying it, fade defends him, admits it, lies, fade still defending him and trying to bullshit, all being retards and unwilling to openly accept the facts and be honest.

Face it its known by everyone beyond reasonable doubt, even if not proven straight out, that he's a hacker, and not just for 'one game.'

But hey why does it matter? He's friends with some top players and has a FaDe to pretend to have authority in the community and defend/comtinue bullshitting. How noble and honest of him to admit to using hacks once.

Pathetic community.

What you're saying is out of anger and not making much sense. Fade is not denying he was in the wrong here, everyone is past that. What's happening is working out a punishment suitable to the severity of his crime, and I feel like a lot of people are taking this a little bit too far considering the circumstances.

edit: And I should clarify, people saying his crime is worse than what he admitted to, should bring evidence to the table if they plan on treating their opinions as fact. Until then we should go off the information we already have.

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by Sanctify

Accused of hacking, denying it, fade defends him, admits it, lies, fade still defending him and trying to bullcrap, all being retards and unwilling to openly accept the facts and be honest.
.

Firstly edited the swearing, not a fan of it.
If you were in our shoes and your clan member was the one accused hacking, wouldn't you also give him the benefit of the doubt? I may be new to Clan FaDe, but I understand what being in a Clan means. Hypothetically speaking, if someone accused someone from aLt or TA (not calling anyone out at all, just using 2 extremely well known clans in this case) maphacking, I'm sure their members would hit the forums and also give their members the benefit of the doubt, just like we did.

What are you talking about, unwilling to openly accept the facts. We defended him due to giving him the benefit of the doubt. He admitted to hacking. Okay, so be it. Punishment has been handed down, FaDe leadership will handle his case within Clan FaDe and will issue a statement. No one here from FaDe is denying that he hacked, we brought our concerns and opinions forward because he's a member of our Clan. It's unfortunate yes, but he did hack and has admitted to it. We're not trying to deny that he hacked, that would just be completely illogical and stupid. It's like trying to milk a dead cow, or saying you're shaving your beard when you don't even have a beard. And what facts are you talking about in the first place? That he's hacked more than 1 game? You need to show that he's hacked, otherwise you're not spouting facts, you're spouting opinion. Difference? One is common frickin knowledge. The other, no matter how hard you try will be biased in some way or form.

Until you PROVE without a doubt that EvetS hacked more than 1 game, it's still opinion at this point.

[ROOT`iaguz]

If you're going to get this worked up over hackers then why is SenSei still in TA?

Evets feels really shitty over this. The punishment has worked, to an extent, and if anyone else gets caught out with this shit we can easily be nastier to them.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	balls of steel
	inFeZa:	im pretty sure you hide your hacks in your beard....
	Nemo:	Exactly !
	cRSenSei:	Seriously?
	ToRSpartaz:	Russian balls xD
	stalking you:	Lol @ SenSai's Rep Comment :P good post

[cRSenSei]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

If you're going to get this worked up over hackers then why is SenSei still in TA?

Evets feels really shitty over this. The punishment has worked, to an extent, and if anyone else gets caught out with this shit we can easily be nastier to them.

Wtf is this suppose to mean? I have never touched anything in starcraft 2, this was dealt with over 5 years ago why is it still being brought up.

I dealt my time what. What has it got to do with the now?

I won't even bother putting in my 2c about what evets has done/tried to cover up what he did but he is getting off very lightly compared to what I would expect.

I expected more from you Ethan..

Quick Comments

SPGDoG:

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.SenSei

I have never touched anything in starcraft 2, this was dealt with over 5 years ago why is it still being brought up.

I dealt my time what. What has it got to do with the now?

I think this pretty much outlines the pain EvetS has to deal with now given what he did. While unfortunate that you're made to re-live the events of the past, history has always served as a reminder and a learning point for future generations.

This thread got pretty heated earlier on and SenSei I wouldn't stress on it man, but as Light said unfortunately you're going to be referenced from time-to-time when this sorta thing pops up - but on a positive note you're like a reformed drug addict... A sign that someone who DID something wrong (a long time ago mind you) can again become a positive, constructive member of the community once more.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Exactly

[ChaynesOre]

Originally Posted by Sanctify

Accused of hacking, denying it, fade defends him, admits it, lies, fade still defending him and trying to bullshit, all being retards and unwilling to openly accept the facts and be honest.

Face it its known by everyone beyond reasonable doubt, even if not proven straight out, that he's a hacker, and not just for 'one game.'

But hey why does it matter? He's friends with some top players and has a FaDe to pretend to have authority in the community and defend/comtinue bullshitting. How noble and honest of him to admit to using hacks once.

Pathetic community.

Originally Posted by dippa

That doesn't work. He can't be a well respected person IF HE DECIDED TO CHEAT.

Also, he didn't have the balls to own up to it; he was exposed and decided to lie, only choosing to admit the truth after his defence was fractured with evidence to the contrary.

His actions shows that he's obviously lacking in principle; I can't imagine how anyone could still hold him in high regard (beyond close friends) after all of that.

And why do you think he might be hesitant to admit it at first when there's people like you with nothing better to do than jump on the latest hate bandwagon there is and flame him to death. At least he did in fact admit to his crime, and punishments have been handed down. How many times have you done something dishonest that you've regretted in your life and not fessed up immediately? Let alone when you've got a whole community of internet tough guys just begging for the latest TMZ gossip to come out of their scene and hate you for it.

What point would a 12+mth ban really achieve anyway -- people will just get a new game / account and start over fresh if you force them into hiding like that, whereas a 2/3mth ban, he's gonna have to wear it and put up with crap from people like you forever. He's admitted to hacking once, and the facts you suggest as facts are not indeed facts, so you're not helping the argument here. You're also loading the facts when you say he "decided to cheat" -- no, he decided to screw around with hacks to see what they're about. Cheating suggests he acted dishonestly to personally achieve more, whereas what he has stated, suggests to me the motive is based off curiosity/boredom and a lack of generally giving a rats' with IRL issues, more than anything else. His word is what you take it to be, but for those who carry weight and make the decisions, it's enough for them to distinguish him on a separate punishment tier from others -- and you should respect their decision.

Just chill. Learn to forgive some nerds once in awhile and you'll be a much happier person. Otherwise, if you consider the community to be that "pathetic" - why don't you consider leaving?

EDIT: Removed profanity :P Sorry

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	...
	nirvAnA:	good first post, abit harsh at the end tho
	PiG:	good post. A bit opinionated for a first post though...
	EveMassacrisM:	Nope.
	Sanctify:	well no, clearly the 'bandwagon' is biased support because he's friends with many key community members...
	EXCL:
	nGenLight:	If this is the attitude we gonna adopt, then maybe we can all hack just for once and get a 2/3 month ban IF we got caught.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by chaynesore

And why do you think he might be hesitant to admit it at first when there's people like you with nothing better to do than jump on the latest hate bandwagon there is and flame him to death. At least he did in fact admit to his crime, and punishments have been handed down. How many times have you done something dishonest that you've regretted in your life and not fessed up immediately? Let alone when you've got a whole community of internet tough guys just begging for the latest ******* TMZ gossip to come out of their scene and hate you for it.

What point would a 12+mth ban really achieve anyway -- people will just get a new game / account and start over fresh if you force them into hiding like that, whereas a 2/3mth ban, he's gonna have to wear it and put up with shit from people like you forever. He's admitted to hacking once, and the facts you suggest as facts are not indeed facts, therefore, just shut up. You're also loading the facts when you say he "decided to cheat" -- no, he decided to **** around with hacks to see what they're about. Cheating suggests he acted dishonestly to personally achieve more, whereas what he has stated, suggests to me the motive is based off curiosity/boredom and a lack of generally giving a **** with IRL issues, more than anything else. His word is what you take it to be, but for those who carry weight and make the decisions, it's enough for them to distinguish him on a separate punishment tier from others -- and you should respect their decision.

Just chill. Learn to forgive some nerds once in awhile and you'll be a much happier person. Otherwise, if you consider the community to be that "pathetic" - why don't you consider leaving?

I'm plenty happy thanks; there's no need to suddenly attach personality traits and emotions from an argument in which I've tried to reason things out as best as I possibly can.

You're almost portraying hackers here as people who have some kind of socially awkward disability, who need therapy rather than a good kick up the arse.

What's even funnier is that you ostracise me for allegedly relying on "facts" that are somehow untrue. I presume you're referring to the manner in which he admitted hacking here, since that's what you quoted and you didn't refer to anything else.

Evets tried to defend himself on page 2. Hell, he even tried to stream, as if to say, "Look guys! I'm really this good without hacks!"

What do you think the point of him offering up excuses was? It was a deliberate attempt to hide the fact that he cheated, and he only admitted to doing so after analysis effectively removed any other reasonable alternative.

But the real irony here is that while pillaging me for going off what happened in this thread, you then cite factors that you have absolutely no way of confirming exist in the first place.

Your definition is wrong as well. Cheaters might have different motives, but anyone that decides to use third-party assistance in a game to gain an advantage is cheating, regardless of why they decided to do it. The only supporting evidence you have to your claim that he was "******* around with hacks" is basically Evets' word for it: but on the basis of his posts in this thread alone, how can you possibly trust him?

Furthermore, forgive me if I ignore your suggestion regarding respect. I'll make my own decisions on who to respect, thank you very much, and it won't be based on whether people have clout or the authority to make decisions but whether they deserve my respect in the first place.

Just because people can passionately criticise a community doesn't mean they don't care about what's going on, and it doesn't mean they don't want to improve it. I can't speak for Santi here, but hopefully everyone knows I mean well.

This is actually quite incorrect. If you look back through the thread you will see several posts, most notably from PiG outlining exactly how he thought the replay was inconclusive at least. If anything, he was on the way to being cleared as "that game was a little suss but nothing we can prove".

There wasn't several posts, just PiG supporting one of his students, which is admirable of him. My remark that Evets was "exposed" is perfectly accurate, since the replay was evidently enough for him to feel like he had to defend himself. He tried to then hide the truth; in my book, that's as good as a lie, even if it doesn't fit some people's traditional meaning of the word.

PiG's defence was in no way close to getting Evets off the hook; but I'll accept that Timber's accusations weren't 100% concrete, either. I'll take the blame for that one.

Scarecrow's still right though; hacking is the absolute worst thing you can do in online gaming, next to scamming. How that's dealt with though; each to their own I suppose. I don't get to make the decisions, after all.

[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

If you're going to get this worked up over hackers then why is SenSei still in TA?

Sensei got caught almost 4 years ago and it was still discussed heavily before we gave him a long-ass trial period.
He more than did his time.

Quick Comments

[TA]LoSt:

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by Volition

once again, why.

(Read Volition's whole post to understand the context)

I've asked this question since page 2. Everyone ignores it so ... this is never going to end.

[Rockstar]

First of all I'd like to say that I feel the matter has been handled reasonably well by all involved. Evets has been punished. However, some of the things being said here kind of grind my gears a little... So in response...

Originally Posted by Volition

What further harm has it REALLY caused you?

Well this entire community is based around the competitive world of Starcraft 2 Gaming... E-sports as people call it. There are a LOT of people in this community alone that have very high hopes for the future of e-sports. Evets actions brought that world into disrepute. Evets competes in the highest tier of this community. So yes, a lot of people do find this to be very very harmful to what they believe in. Whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

if anyone else gets caught out with this shit we can easily be nastier to them.

I would like you to explain to me why anyone else caught should be treated any differently to Evets. Thats kind of the entire problem with this thread. This is creating a precedence for all future instances of hacking.

Originally Posted by chaynesore

Cheating suggests he acted dishonestly to personally achieve more,

He did.

Originally Posted by chaynesore

it's enough for them to distinguish him on a separate punishment tier from others -- and you should respect their decision.

Having different rules for different people is unjustifiable.

Quick Comments

wolf:

[NvJazBas]

I've accused evets for map hacking like 2 seasons ago and he said he wasn't but he "used to" and the next game I got from ladder was a guy who played evets and I asked him for replay and evets goes 13pool vs 10 pool (14th drone from egg cancled) and many suspicious counter moves.

I don't know if he saying he wasn't hacking back in the days were true (I personally think its a lie), but admitting his own crime and getting the punishment still don't give you the right to put yourself higher than any of the accus"er"s here. I disagree with people saying "At least he admitted it". Yeah after a long time of false statements.

"Taking this a bit too far" would be banning him from sc2sea for life. I personally take cheating very seriously (maybe cause I'm Korean and I know how much work it was taken to make e-sports what it is now) and just imagine how many people on ladder he would've made rage (My opinion is he map hacked alot of games. My OPINION). I'm very sleepy right now so I'll do this tomorrow but tomorrow, I'll look through my computer so if I can find the replay of me vs evets back in the days and the one I received from the guy who vsed him after me.

But really, I don't see how anyone can defend him. He maphacked on ladder. One game or 100 games, he maphacked.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	NvRossi:	i loled
	Shieldz:
	EveMassacrisM:	The man has spoken.
	Fadey:
	stalking you:	I remember you talking to EvetS about him potentially hacking back in Season 2 when i used to hang out around FaDe chat channel.

[TAEdgE]

Ok guys I want to get this out in the open before more harm is done.

It was 3 and a half years ago now and while all the cool kids had a Bot doing runs in Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction, I resorted to map hacking. I used it for 2 months, and it helped rush my friends. It did nothing but benefit, but if you guys are angry at me I understand.

I also used cheats in the Brood War campaign when I was 12. Sorry.

Quick Comments

nard:

lol

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

But really, I don't see how anyone can defend him.

Bring us proof and we may change our mind. Until then there is only one, possibly two instances of him hacking.

[pRoTimber]

who knows maybe he had shared the hack with his friends? maybe badger who keeps coming in defence? or who he got the hack from? why even bother about the meaningless punishment? i'd say send the hack to blizzard to fix it the next patch.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	i liked you in diddy kong racing
	nirvAnA:	thanks for uncovering it all timber but this post is wrong wrong wrong lol.
	VB_Rhuubarb:	no need to infer others in this
	Shieldz:

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by pRoTimber

who knows maybe he had shared the hack with his friends? maybe badger who keeps coming in defence? or who he got the hack from? why even bother about the meaningless punishment? i'd say send the hack to blizzard to fix it the next patch.

Yeah bro, I maphack my way all through Platinum.

[Maynarde]

JazBaz I was one of the people that defended EvetS (in the Community Open I hosted) when you messaged about his suspicious behaviour on ladder. Makes you wonder now Interested in seeing the replays but I don't know why we're arguing over the EvetS thing still.

Myself, iaguz and a few others have RE-stated that EvetS has already been punished. The horse is already dead, stop hitting it. He admitted to hacking = consequences = done.

Now go, to the ladder! Find more hackers and shine glorious retribution among them.

Quick Comments

mGGDaedalus:

Beating a dead horse is much safer than beating a live one

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

JazBaz I was one of the people that defended EvetS (in the Community Open I hosted) when you messaged about his suspicious behaviour on ladder. Makes you wonder now Interested in seeing the replays but I don't know why we're arguing over the EvetS thing still.

Myself, iaguz and a few others have RE-stated that EvetS has already been punished. The horse is already dead, stop hitting it. He admitted to hacking = consequences = done.

Now go, to the ladder! Find more hackers and shine glorious retribution among them.

I just read the whole thing (and really late to the whole issue) so yes I wrote really late post. I was really angry and confused with some people defending him about "having the balls to own up to it" which I just don't get cause he didn't own up to it from the start.

It's 4:40am here but hell I'll go look through replays now.

Remember. Evets still haven't admitted that he hacked many games (which some people like me do not believe) and I'm just trying to get out the truth (at least the truth I believe) so its not beating up the dead horse again because right now, his only accused for hacking ONCE against Timber and few times back he was in diamond?

I'll post asap about the replay going to look through them now.

[TAEdgE]

He was being exaggeratingly rhetorical Bryan, the part about meaningless punishment and sending to Blizzard was the serious part. (Correct me if i'm wrong Timby)

[nirvAnA]

no he wasnt, thats what he msged me on msn too a few hours ago lol

[TAEdgE]

Oh you guys share MSN drama

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Oh you guys share MSN drama

I'm jelly.

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Oh you guys share MSN drama

I am gonna start some drama with you on Skype Cam

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by TARogue

I am gonna start some drama with you on Skype Cam

As long as there's a cam involved with you and Cam, i'd watch that...

[NvJazBas]

How do I attatch a file?

[NvRossi]

try drop.sc to upload replays or a similar website

Quick Comments

NvJazBas:

sweet thx!

[EveVendetta]

JazBaz, chill man there's nothing much to prove, I'm pretty sure the rest of the community here are more or less certain that Evets did hack more than once, based on the various testimonials by e.g. you, muse, timbre. ( and in doing so Evets lied during his admission of hacking ONLY that one game).

The only people who are demanding evidence ( which is hard to find from seasons back, personally I don't save my replays) are a select few Clan Fade guys.

And Badger, it's not really beating a dead horse if this lying during his admission warrants a greater punishment to be decided by the admins. I guess its up to the admins to decide.

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by EveVendetta

JazBaz, chill man there's nothing much to prove, I'm pretty sure the rest of the community here are more or less certain that Evets did hack more than once, based on the various testimonials by e.g. you, muse, timbre. ( and in doing so Evets lied during his admission of hacking ONLY that one game).

The only people who are demanding evidence ( which is hard to find from seasons back, personally I don't save my replays) are a select few Clan Fade guys.

And Badger, it's not really beating a dead horse if this lying during his admission warrants a greater punishment to be decided by the admins. I guess its up to the admins to decide.

I'm just certain myself that he hacked more than one gamea nd not very happy with the way "some" people are saying about this and feel angry about Evets admitting about hacking one game only which I personally think is a lie. I couldn't provide a good evidence so in the end its just opinion vs opinion but yeah, this is my opinion.

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

Bring us proof and we may change our mind. Until then there is only one, possibly two instances of him hacking.

I'm saying, even if its just 1 game, how can anyone(you) defend him? He "admitted" he hacked after denying it.

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

I'm just certain myself that he hacked more than one gamea nd not very happy with the way "some" people are saying about this and feel angry about Evets admitting about hacking one game only which I personally think is a lie. I couldn't provide a good evidence so in the end its just opinion vs opinion but yeah, this is my opinion.

Exactly my thoughts. According to him the only game he hacked in was yesterday in the game against timber, when I have played him since season 2 and found him suspicious in many of the games played. On top of that, apart from the testimonials given by the few reputable players around here - putting their reputation at risk Fade members(and a few others) still refuse to believe that he hacked in more than one game and starting from more than 3 seasons ago.

and for those people who think that i'm blindly calling him a maphacker please refer to this post http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55234&postcount=20

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

Exactly my thoughts. According to him the only game he hacked in was yesterday in the game against timber, when I have played him since season 2 and found him suspicious in many of the games played. On top of that, apart from the testimonials given by the few reputable players around here - putting their reputation at risk Fade members(and a few others) still refuse to believe that he hacked in more than one game and starting from more than 3 seasons ago.

and for those people who think that i'm blindly calling him a maphacker please refer to this post http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55234&postcount=20

I don't think 'refusing to believe' is the right words. But for such a serious accusation, I just think substantial evidence should be provided and analysed/discussed.

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

I'm just certain myself that he hacked more than one gamea nd not very happy with the way "some" people are saying about this and feel angry about Evets admitting about hacking one game only which I personally think is a lie. I couldn't provide a good evidence so in the end its just opinion vs opinion but yeah, this is my opinion.




I'm saying, even if its just 1 game, how can anyone(you) defend him? He "admitted" he hacked after denying it.

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

Exactly my thoughts. According to him the only game he hacked in was yesterday in the game against timber, when I have played him since season 2 and found him suspicious in many of the games played. On top of that, apart from the testimonials given by the few reputable players around here - putting their reputation at risk Fade members(and a few others) still refuse to believe that he hacked in more than one game and starting from more than 3 seasons ago.

and for those people who think that i'm blindly calling him a maphacker please refer to this post http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55234&postcount=20

Muse and I, both of us, I can say that we don't accuse anyone for no reason. I don't think I was ever wrong on "Oh I think OOO map hacks" because it just happens SO rarely. I can have endless losing streak (I had 8 loss streak vs pokerface and 6 vs YaMaMa -_-..) and still don't find anything suspicious like maphacking or whatever but just lost purely cause of skill difference in those games. In fact, the game I found suspicious of the game he vsed me was me actually winning. But the way he played was so suspicious that I went over the replay in his camera and found really suspicious stuff (I can't provide evidence sorry).

This case is not closed because Evets still havn't admitted on cheating many other games which I believe he did so I belive we can still argue over this and its not beating up a dead horse again. I am willing to risk the reputation I have from the community to prove this.

Quick Comments

	Peleus:
	Neoneoz:
	Eldrid:

[ChaynesOre]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

Exactly my thoughts. According to him the only game he hacked in was yesterday in the game against timber, when I have played him since season 2 and found him suspicious in many of the games played. On top of that, apart from the testimonials given by the few reputable players around here - putting their reputation at risk Fade members(and a few others) still refuse to believe that he hacked in more than one game and starting from more than 3 seasons ago.

and for those people who think that i'm blindly calling him a maphacker please refer to this post http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55234&postcount=20

People have replied to this post as well though:

http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55240&postcount=24
http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55261&postcount=36

I watched the replay, and I play Zerg at a decent level and all of these things seem common subtleties to well-understood Zerg play to me. If you find other replays that are undeniable proof of hacking, I'll lynch him with you guys too, and I'm sure the "deciders" will crush him for lying about the single instance. But until then, it's settled. Let go of that game though. Find others -- all you need is one, right? Shouldn't be that hard..

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by chaynesore

People have replied to this post as well though:

http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55240&postcount=24
http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=55261&postcount=36

I watched the replay, and I play Zerg at a decent level and all of these things seem common subtleties to well-understood Zerg play to me. If you find other replays that are undeniable proof of hacking, I'll lynch him with you guys too, and I'm sure the "deciders" will crush him for lying about the single instance. But until then, it's settled. Let go of that game though. Find others -- all you need is one, right? Shouldn't be that hard..

Yes apart from the drone pull at the start.

Give me one replay of any zerg player who does that without seeing a scv in sight.

Remember, he did not see the scv coming at all and he pulled back at the perfect timing. I can asure you you cannot find a replay of any zerg doing that. Especially on maps like TDA where its 4 player map and chances of Terran scouting that early in the right direction is minimal.

[NvJazBas]

http://drop.sc/80896

Ok firstly, I couldn't find the game I found suspicious (almost 100% certain) he was maphacking which was game against me because I deleted all the replays I had few weeks ago.

This game is the one I got after checking evets history after our game, knowing this IrlIAwp guy was the one who played evets after he playing me, and I somehow met him on ladder so I asked him of the replay.

Ok so about the replay, this replay don't have much of the evidence I was looking to give like the game he had vs me but few things still look suspicious

I was wrong about the 14th egg drone cancle (this was long time ago sorry for bad memory) it was just a mistake of 2 overloads at 9~10 supply cancling. Not many things in this game looks really suspicious and not very accusable but few things do look suspicious

14pool not gas first as in reaction to the 10 pool maybe? I don't know if this is the build PiG taught him to do back at that times but its not a very usual build.

Unusal rally inside mineral line at 2:15 right before Awp's pool finishes, saving larva to defend early aggression without scouting early pool also.

Really good ling placements before seeing which direction his opponents lings come in


14:00. He makes a round of lings rallied at the 3rd base without scouting (understandable)
14:50 He does a shift command attack on the 3rd expo of Awp's at his gold which he cancled his original 3rd and remade at the gold, without scouting right after it starts building clicking right in the middle of it (yes clicking the rock can be arguable but I don't know.. still without scouting anything)

But still, anything Evets did is arguable by saying "he had good game sense" as he had really good roach warren timings, drone timings etc.

Not the best game to accuse a player of maphacking but things did really look suspicious for me especially early game. I wish I can provide replay of my game vs Evets but thats not doable so yes this is all I can give and totally understandable if some people defending Evets don't buy it.


ps. Do not pause the replay before you see the shift command attack. I found out that if you pause a bit early, (14:49) you won't be able to see the shift command and you'll have to reload the replay

Quick Comments

FaDeGofire:

thanks for finding replay

[Nemo]

Well, 12 month ban = Life ban in SC2.

I personally would not understand that people could have been pardoned for racism and someone who has cheated and admit it (maybe partially) would not. Let keep things in perspective.

Remember too that people should be encouraged to admit after bad behavior. It's far worse for the community when they don't and they might get away with it ...

Quick Comments

VB_Rhuubarb:

Completely agree

[syfChadMann]

well now, this thread was entertaining.

Kids, what have we learnt?
- Hacking is bad. you might win, but your win is meaningless... If a meaningless win is what you are after, vs AI.
- While Evets has hacked, that doesn't have anything to do with FaDe, Therefore, you may individually lose respect for Evets as you see it fit - don't hate on FaDe, In my experience they are all a bunch of nice people!
- We all invest alot of emotion into this game.. eSports! #WINNING!
- Personally, I think if Evets knows what is good for him, he's not going to hack anymore - if he does, everyone will be watching their replays against him, he will get reported - then lose his account.
- hacking is bad.
- stay in school
- don't do drugs

[nGenLight]

No offense, but I wouldn't give any credibility to someone who just got caught cheating in a competitive game where people put their lives into. Who knows if you've hacked one time or one million times, and who cares how sincere your explanation/apology might have sounded, your credibility got shot the moment you started hacking and went further down the drain when you decided to deny it (although I do understand the social desire to negate bad press). To top it off you seemed liked a great guy when I spoke to you, and that further makes you untrustable - if you could smile and be nice to me while you cheated and shit, who knows what other lies you are capable of. You might even be a closet serial killer. Every insult/diss you are going to get/gotten will be completely deserving, shame on you for killing E-Sports.

Sure, don't get me wrong, admiting to it was a nice thing to do, but the moment you did you lost all your integrity. Although, I do believe it was a good gesture to do and one day people will forgive you and you could follow the footsteps of Sensei. But you will never be forgotten for what you did and your going to cop alot of shit, I feel mega sorry for you, but you freaking deserve it.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	lol @ the closet serial killer!!!
	NvJazBas:
	MooZfY:	You like Pikachu? I LIKE PIKACHU TOO!
	asdfSchnitzel:	Our hero has returned? =D
	Neoneoz:
	TATheMoonStar:	well said
	ToRSpartaz:	Didnt you retire? o.O
	x5.Revenant:
	AxSGRiM:
	neon:	I really love your avatar. :D

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

No offense, but I wouldn't give any credibility to someone who just got caught cheating in a competitive game where people put their lives into. Who knows if you've hacked one time or one million times, and who cares how sincere your explanation/apology might have sounded, your credibility got shot the moment you started hacking and went further down the drain when you decided to deny it (although I do understand the social desire to negate bad press). To top it off you seemed liked a great guy when I spoke to you, and that further makes you untrustable - if you could smile and be nice to me while you cheated and shit, who knows what other lies you are capable of. You might even be a closet serial killer. Every insult/diss you are going to get/gotten will be completely deserving, shame on you for killing E-Sports.

Sure, don't get me wrong, admiting to it was a nice thing to do, but the moment you did you lost all your integrity. Although, I do believe it was a good gesture to do and one day people will forgive you and you could follow the footsteps of Sensei. But you will never be forgotten for what you did and your going to cop alot of shit, I feel mega sorry for you, but you freaking deserve it.

ran out of reps, will do so tomorrow

apart from what light has said, it is even more frustrating for us players who know that he has been 'respected' in the community because he's a high-level player and the fact that he cheated to get that status, while the rest of us had to work our ass off getting there.

[nGenLight]

^ Maphacking in Starcraft I/II is like commiting pedophile rape. You may get off after 10-20 years but your name will be dragged through the mud.

That said even Pedophiles can return to be total class acts - as Sensei have shown.

Quick Comments

TeZzA:

Sensei is now #1 Pedophile.

[FaDeGofire]

It's not that FaDe is condoning maphacking. It's that there is no clear evidence that evets has done it perpetually. A maphacker is a maphacker. But surely there should be different punishments for the extent of maphacking. Someone who cheats in a CO vs someone who cheats every game on ladder vs someone who used a hack once during a difficult period.

If you believe that evets has only cheated once or twice then the 2 month ban is fair, which is what the admins of sc2sea and some of fade believe. If you think that evets has been maphacking for a long time and is still lying to everyone then I completely understand why you are upset at the current punishment.

However, you cannot condemn someone without sufficient proof. I'm glad that jazbaz, muse, and timber brought out the replays and appreciate that they are not doing it lightly. The more replays the better the community can judge the situation. I want to know the truth as well. If there are clear replays of him hacking on multiple occasions then I personally would not want him still in fade as it means he would have lied to everyone too many times to gain back my trust.

Regarding jazbas' replay.. what stood out to me was the lack of scouting/map control he had.. he made units but hardly ventured outside his natural.. What if his opponent was super greedy or went for muta. Whether he was hacking or not i'd leave that up to the pro players who know a lot more about zvz.

[nGenLight]

Imagine a pedophile was caught one day and his defense was that one day he got really horny and decided to try something new to get him off and he thought a little 5 year old boy around his neighbourhood would be a good option. He then says this is the first instance he has ever commited sexual acts against children despite several allegations against him.

NOW, if he was let off lightly - Can you guys imagine the precedence that is going to be set for future pedophiles?

Every single person who will be caught maphacking is going to claim the same thing. To let this guy off lightly is a dangerous move, community. The ball is in your court.

Sure we don't have the resource or technology available to find the absolute truth. But the crime of maphacking should never be punished lightly, either done once or many times. & why do we take the words of a criminal over several well respected members of the community? Lynch him and show the community of the consequences of maphacking... even once.

Quick Comments

	cRSenSei:
	syfChadMann:	an extreme analogy but I somewhat agree..
	nirvAnA:	Agree setting a precedence is good. Disagree with using a "pedophile analogy" for hacking in a computer game. pedophiles are some serious shit!
	Frogmite:	map hackers are like pedophiles please
	TADivinity:	People calling out inappropriateness on the Web. Yet they laugh at Pedo Bear
	TAEdgE:
	VB_WhiplashJC:	Poor choice of metaphor but still apt.

[Imperial]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Imagine a pedophile was caught one day and his defense was that one day he got really horny and decided to try something new to get him off and he thought a little 5 year old boy around his neighbourhood would be a good option. He then says this is the first instance he has ever commited sexual acts against children despite several allegations against him.

NOW, if he was let off lightly - Can you guys imagine the precedence that is going to be set for future pedophiles?

Every single person who will be caught maphacking is going to claim the same thing, this is a dangerous move, community. The ball is in your court.

He got 3 month ban and we will forget about it tomorrow, read the thread.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	LOL, forget about it tomorrow? Your joking right?
	AxSGRiM:	Haven't forgotten yet TT

[nirvAnA]

Firstly, I am not friends with EvetS, I barely know him. But I am good friends with PiG, Maynarde, Eddie, Shortizz etc and a few others who held EvetS in high regard generally as a contributive and well respected member on SC2SEA and battle.net. And my few interactions with EvetS has lead me to feel that way too. So do we throw all that information out the window? No, that was taken into consideration when we made our decision. And our decision was biased to the extent of him previously having a clean / good track record NOT because some of us are friends with him, that is just stupid and insulting to us at the same time. It is similar to how in court cases the jury reviews your history to see if you have been a "outstanding member of the community" or a "low life scumbag" before they deliver their verdict.

Next, I posted this in the chatbox.

[1:31 AM] nirvAnA: lol why do pple keep beating the deadhorse. as jazbas said hack1 game or hack 100 games its the same, u hacked. and he was given his punishment. fwiw i dont believe he just hacked for 1 game either.

[1:37 AM] nirvAnA: sensei i believe iaguz said "SenSei hacked 5 years ago and was still allowed in TA" coz some of them wanted to crucify evets with like a 1 year ban from the site/ all competitions (which is as good as never playing sc2 again imo or worse he ends up smurfing etc) and he wanted to put it into perspective that yes its terrible, but do not end the rest of his gaming life as was the case with sensei who was forgiven. our mentality is he admitted he was clearly wrong and has been shamed and punished. it should not be the end of his sc2 life. if he does it again, yes LIFE BAN because that would mean he is not going to change. What iaguz and me mean is after all Sensei turned out fine as well, and has been forgiven (eventually) by TA etc and evets deserves that opportunity too.

[1:39 AM] SQLTt.SenSei: Yeah I went through the exact same thing ~6 years ago. It took alot longer than a few days to get through it. And even now like you say it's still being bought up.
[1:40 AM] nirvAnA: ya its gonna stick with him for life. a 2 month ban is nothing in comparison to the shame and stigma that will follow him. no need to make him force to quit sc2 / site/ his passion altogether.

Edit: Since people are so insistent i have just moved this topic into its own thread.

[TAScarecrow]

Checked out jazbas' replay. If he has been consistently map hacking there's not going to be anything too obvious. It would mainly involve relying on the minimap which is really hard to detect.

I agree the rocks thing looks suss, everyone knows they're there. Clicking dead center on the enemy rocks is a really unusual misclick, unless he was just clicking on the hatch he hadn't seen yet. It's bloody confident right clicking rocks in the enemies fog of war when you have next to 0 scouting.

The strangest thing I found in the replay, whilst not condemning, is the bizarre lack of scouting. Never sending sacrificial lings out to see what's going on, leaving the watchtowers uncontested for much of the game plus there's no reason not to have a few spotter overlords spread out up the middle. He seemed way too comfortable just sitting on his 2 bases with 1 overlord worth of total map vision.

Anyway, the rep's not 100% conclusive but it's looking pretty bad when someone of jazbas' integrity's calling you out.

edit: why is he only banned for 2 months when even nirv thinks his confession is another lie?

Quick Comments

TADivinity:

I was going to post your edit yourself, but thought it might be deleted

[EveVendetta]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

edit: why is he only banned for 2 months when even nirv thinks his confession is another lie?

Nirvana and the other admins decided on a rather light punishment on Evets, but I guess its ultimately up to them. Although I also feel that it should be a harsher punishment, Evets can easily use another account to do whatsoever activities he's been banned in (e.g. join tournaments), so I guess it won't make much of a diff.

To Evets, you can easily solve this whole replay debate by just stating right now whether you did only hack that ONE game or have hacked in previous games as well.This would save a lot of bias-ness finger pointing and settle this issue (with the assumption you did hack in other games as well). I'm sure you are still reading this thread and that you'll reply to this. Thanks.

[nGenLight]

Bryan killing my fun yo.

[MooZfY]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Bryan killing my fun yo.

Lol yeah, I want to continue reading this thread so entertaining!

[Imperial]

' LOL, forget about it tomorrow? Your joking right?'

I MIGHT care if he got perma banned but his reputation will get him through this just fine and the people who think that admitting it after lying a few times then realising he has to admit it are behind him all the way. Also Starcraft 2 has a wicked manner community that amazes me so hes not going to be harassed or verbally abused like people with a bad rep would. Do you honestly think hes going to be called a ******* ****** everyday of his life and disallowed from entering tournaments? Oh btw the community doesnt have a say in these matters, only mods do, and they are to afraid to actually take action. The guy is a no name already and anybody who says otherwise will get their post deleted for harassing another member of the community. Example : my post

[Meatex]

Given the state this thread has devolved to and nirvana's recent post I am choosing to write (FaDe's official) statement here and now (3am and really worn out) so please forgive any occasional typos and curtness.

Regarding the length of the ban, FaDe feels that 3 months is an adequate length with the reason that any longer would likely drive the boy out of the SEA community entirely and either push him to play on KR or NA exclusively or leave sc2 completely. Why is that a bad thing you may ask; because in a few weeks the whole drama will be a distant memory essentially making his punishment less by trying to make it more.
Like others have said the stigma is going to follow him everywhere, he has lost a lot of trust and respect of everyone in the community and he's going to have to deal with so much scrutiny and flack even in games that he loses no doubt. That is the main punishment and driving him out of the community is basically letting him off the hook.
That is why with nirvana and Eddie we decided community service would be the best course of action. I feel making evets work to try to gradually earn back as much respect as he can. This will take the form of helping with replay analysis, coaching and anything I can find for him to do.
Not only this I will have him stream more regularly so should you feel suspicious about his gameplay you can watch as well as provide as many replays as he can gather.
I will say this again, you might think this is getting off easy but don't underestimate the power of shame and I can assure you he knows he F-ed up and good and he feels like shit. Yes he deserves it but he should also be given the chance to redeem himself.

While I think Light's pedo analogy is ridiculous he does make a point here:

Sure, don't get me wrong, admiting to it was a nice thing to do, but the moment you did you lost all your integrity. Although, I do believe it was a good gesture to do and one day people will forgive you and you could follow the footsteps of Sensei. But you will never be forgotten for what you did and your going to cop alot of shit, I feel mega sorry for you, but you freaking deserve it.

I certainly don't expect people to brush accusations aside or just move on but I would hope people keep it civil please. Giving him a chance to redeem himself is not tantamount to forgiving and I'd ask everyone to bear that in mind.

Hopefully that covers all the stuff I need to - I would ask that future complaints are brought to me via email ("meatex" via the gmail) much like gMMuse was good enough to do in regard to his accusations.
I would ask that you do not direct your ire towards other FaDe members apart from myself. They were defending a friend and frankly anyone who genuinely wouldn't do the same for their mate knowing the circumstances... well they aren't a real friend.
I already feel a little responsible and i'm also hurt by some comments that have been made that are tending towards being more generally aimed at FaDe itself. Evets is my friend but as leader of FaDe I have to go to him with every complaint and doubt his honesty and that feels incredibly crappy. I take the accusations very seriously and I would beg that players consider as objectively as they can future suspicious replays before sending them to me.

Quick Comments

	FaDeGofire:	very well said
	nirvAnA:	Agreed, very well said.
	EXCL:	:)
	x5_dot:
	mGGDaedalus:
	sRAnti:
	FaDeAudacity:
	TAriiChard:
	Nemo:	Good and balanced justice

[inFeZa]

Whats with the pedo stuff...

[ToRsupapower]

Pedophiles are worse than Starcraft 2 Maphackers, sorry you can't compare a Pedophile to a hacker in a "game."

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	I can and I just did, shoot me.
	Synizta:

[TAriiChard]

PLEASE DON'T DELETE THIS POST!!!

I need to defend JazBas and Muse here as I have evidence that reinforces their statement of FaDeEvetS hacking in more than 1-2 occasions.

Below is a replay where I get 6 pooled without being scouted but the main evidence of FaDeEvetS maphacking is that at 2:38 he selects all his drones and lings to attack my scv building a supply depot without having vision of the scv.


http://drop.sc/81378

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	bit late but beautiful
	TAEdgE:
	TADivinity:	Definitive proof
	Peleus:
	Zealo:	i would have thought even with hacks that line would be blue, very blatent
	NvJazBas:
	mGMUSE:	thank you
	MooZfY:	:D let's continue the FUN!
	AxSGRiM:	F'YES. @Badger, only once?
	Shieldz:	nice
	Synizta:	better late then never :)

[NvRossi]

that is incredibly blatant.

Quick Comments

	freaky_beeky:	I could not agree more!
	TAriiChard:
	ToRSpartaz:	THATS RIGHT SO SIT THE F DOWN, always had wanted to say that to be honest ^^

[VB_WhiplashJC]

No one ever used a hack once. It's not like flicking a switch, you have to seek it out and get it. If I caught anyone in VB using a hack they would be banned from the clan permanently - I've done it before and I'm sure I'll do it again.

I've learned in previous games that people that use hacks don't change. They use them because they think they're smarter than everyone else, so they won't get caught. The mind-frame doesn't change once they do. The lying is part of it.

Any clan that doesn't permanently ban someone who uses hacks gets tarred with the same brush IMO. What would they have to do to get kicked from the clan if using a hack and lying isn't enough?

In SC2 we have an active developer, so hopefully is becomes a very expensive pastime for people who want to keep cheating.

Quick Comments

Sanctify:

=D

[nGenLight]

Oh please, you guys not liking my ridiculously clever "pedo" analogy need to go take the dark side tour of the internet. Oh, and an analogy is an analogy, they aren't supposed to carry the same weight, just the same connotation, dickheads. WHY SO SERIOUSA!?

Quick Comments

	Sanctify:
	Peleus:
	Zealo:
	wolf:	i do like batman
	ToRsupapower:	lululul funny :)
	asdfSchnitzel:

[crAzerk]

Updated OP with your post richard

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

Thankyou

[Peleus]

Evets: No I've never hacked at all
Everyone: Evets is well respected, he'd never hack!
*Replays are posted showing he hacks*
Evets: Ok, I hacked ONCE, never ever ever after or before, I'm so sorry, honest.
Everyone: Yay, Evets is bad but at least he's honest and admits to it, and it was only once. We should go easy on him. Of course we should believe him.
*Even more replays are shown with him maphacking*

Everyone: .............


People, this is why you never trust in what a hacker says, and why you should simply remove them from the community. He's proven TWICE now that he's untrustworthy, yet people still put faith in being able to 'reform' him. Why should I ever have to play in a tournament against someone like that with his record ever, let alone only 2-3 months from now.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Evets: No I've never hacked at all
Everyone: Evets is well respected, he'd never hack!
*Replays are posted showing he hacks*
Evets: Ok, I hacked ONCE, never ever ever after or before, I'm so sorry, honest.
Everyone: Yay, Evets is bad but at least he's honest and admits to it, and it was only once. We should go easy on him. Of course we should believe him.
*Even more replays are shown with him maphacking*

Everyone: .............


People, this is why you never trust in what a hacker says, and why you should simply remove them from the community. He's proven TWICE now that he's untrustworthy, yet people still put faith in being able to 'reform' him. Why should I ever have to play in a tournament against someone like that with his record ever, let alone only 2-3 months from now.

I have to agree, he clearly lied even though he supposedly told the truth. and i dont see why people are so afraid of losing a hacker in the community, i dont care how nice he is, he cheated and lied.

Quick Comments

	wolf:
	MooZfY:	+1 smart..

[syfChadMann]

I know at high level play of this game hacking is considered a seriously dog act..

but my opinion is that Hackers are not really in possession of testicles. Thats about it, ripping on EvetS over and over again is like putting down and alcholic at an AA meeting. If he is legit trying to be a better person and will stop hacking (legit reformed hacker) then give him a chance to write his wrongs... and prove that he will not hack again. Why not implement an indefinite ban from sc2sea competitions until EvetS can prove he has changed his way, then implement monitoring of all his games. The punishment of losing all credibility in the community is pretty sever and no doubt Evets has realised that the hacking was far from worth it.

imo, everyone should get a second chance... regardless of their crime. However, if he does it again - then there is obviously no reform for him and he should be ousted from the community.

Quick Comments

Rage:

He was given the chance - he denied it. Then when exposed, he lied AGAIN and said he only did it once.

[Dalvernex]

LOL. drama people. come on more show please
anyway this case will die down eventually. Unless you guys keep talking about it. SHOOT!

Oh ya, about killing esports! DONT RUIN IT! IT CURES CANCER!

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	...
	Bash:	what is this i dont even.
	TADivinity:	^
	mGGDaedalus:	You're not helping things dalv
	FaDeGofire:	hacking is serious
	asdfSchnitzel:	No....Just no.....

[TADivinity]

Just wondering...You guys said that you took into account that he was a nice guy and said sorry etc when you decided on his punishment.
But now you know that he lied to all our faces (again), and let you continue to make posts in this thread, partly based on that.

Does this change anything?

I think Light's words also compliment this:

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

To top it off you seemed liked a great guy when I spoke to you, and that further makes you untrustable - if you could smile and be nice to me while you cheated and shit, who knows what other lies you are capable of.

Notably, I dont care what FaDe does - thats up to them. Just wondering if the punishment would have been worse if he was a no-name to you??

Edit: I know you figured he hacked more than once - you made it clear in big red writing :P. But at the same time, a couple of paragraphs above that you said "He's a nice guy etc etc" ..Yet he obviously lied to you without hesitation?

Edit 2: Clarification: Aimed at sc2sea admins, not FaDe

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Just wondering...You guys said that you took into account that he was a nice guy and said sorry etc when you decided on his punishment.
But now you know that he lied to all our faces (again), and let you continue to make posts in this thread, partly based on that.

Does this change anything?

Notably, I dont care what FaDe does - thats up to them. Just wondering if the punishment would have been worse if he was a no-name to you??

Probably not specifically aimed at me, but I'll give my side anyway especially after your rep comment. Obviously I would have preferred if he had told us, so we didn't go on defending him when it turns out we shouldn't have been. That said, it doesn't change how I feel about him as a person. Sure he hacked in a game and then tried to cover his ass, but so what?

I can honestly say most people I know would do the same thing. It's human nature to try to minimise damage, and there are very very few people who wouldn't lie to do it.

In response to your rep comment, as far as I am concerned I was in no way rude to anyone with the exception of Timber, but I claim that was justified seeing as how he accused me of maphacking purely based on the fact I am friends with EvetS. Everything else was basically saying, you can't say he maphacked the whole time unless you post proof. Proof has been given, and we've stopped defending.

~Edit: the so what part is in reference to covering his ass, not hacking.

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Just wondering...You guys said that you took into account that he was a nice guy and said sorry etc when you decided on his punishment.
But now you know that he lied to all our faces (again), and let you continue to make posts in this thread, partly based on that.

Does this change anything?

Pretty sure whatever you said has already been addressed.
Before that, what does the bolded text refer to? The fact that he has maphacked more than once? If that's the case, somewhere in the thread it was already mentioned that yes, this was accounted for. (Can't seem to find it atm)


And for:

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Just wondering if the punishment would have been worse if he was a no-name to you??

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

And our decision was biased to the extent of him previously having a clean / good track record NOT because some of us are friends with him, that is just stupid and insulting to us at the same time. It is similar to how in court cases the jury reviews your history to see if you have been a "outstanding member of the community" or a "low life scumbag" before they deliver their verdict.

And if people missed the important posts:

SC2SEA's Official Statements (via nirvAnA)
First statement here, and next statement here,
Meatex, Clan leader of FaDe's statement:
Here

Please read these before posting if you wanted the 'official statements of the site, of FaDe'. As said, it's going in circles now. The sentence has been dealt, corrective measures have begun on FaDe's end, further posts about it do NOT really help or affect much besides create more negativity.

Move on, check out proTimbeR's accusation of a certain Ghost of hacking!

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Pretty sure whatever you said has already been addressed.
Before that, what does the bolded text refer to? The fact that he has maphacked more than once? If that's the case, somewhere in the thread it was already mentioned that yes, this was accounted for. (Can't seem to find it atm)

Nono, the fact that he lied in this thread twice - First denying it, and then secondly coming out with a statement (Which no doubt turned heads and some sympathy) which was also just lies.


And in regards to Nirvana's point on 'outstanding member of the community versus low life scumbag'

….That has been said in context, almost with the idea that he hasn't hacked for long. That’s silly – JazBas (Although he can't prove it) believes he has been hacking for a fair amount of time, and Riichard surely gives JazBas' beliefs some credibility.

With this retrospective point…can you really say EvetS has indeed been 'a good member of society'?? (Which seems to have swayed the result of his punishment?)

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	A lot of other people(like Lost, myself, Rossi,etc) has mentioned about him lying so much before confessing it, but the admins seem to ignore this fact and didn't punish him for this course of action that he did.
	mGMUSE:

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Nono, the fact that he lied in this thread twice - First denying it, and then secondly coming out with a statement (Which no doubt turned heads and some sympathy) which was also just lies.


And in regards to Nirvana's point on 'outstanding member of the community versus low life scumbag'

….That has been said in context, almost with the idea that he hasn't hacked for long. That’s silly – JazBas (Although he can't prove it) believes he has been hacking for a fair amount of time, and Riichard surely gives JazBas' beliefs some credibility.

With this retrospective point…can you really say EvetS has indeed been 'a good member of society'?? (Which seems to have swayed the result of his punishment?)

:/ :/ Since my rep post was truncated. I'll state it here again:

A lot of people like Lost, myself, Rossi etc has been mentioning about the course of action he took(denying, lying about it) before confessing that he was a hacker. Shouldn't it be good if there was some form of warning or punishment given to him taking this course of action? The purpose of this would serve a purpose of letting other hackers know that if you're being accused and you're guilty to admit it, instead of deceive people around you that you didn't do it, before finally admitting it.

I'm bringing this up, not to add oil to the fire, but because the admins may not have addressed this issue, or overlooked it. (Or maybe I've skipped a few posts; If that's the case do ignore this post.)

Edit: I just read through the entire thread again.

Now that Riichard has solid proof that EvetS has hacked more than what he admitted, I seriously think he deserves more than that. This essentially means that he lied/denied about hacking, confessed to hacking in ONE game, and in the end it was found out by Riichard that his confession is full of lies again. I'm sorry to be that harsh, but how the heck can we still ever trust a guy that lies over and over again?

I even asked him repeatedly if it was his honest words that he only hacked for one game over a series of posts, and he claimed that was the truth and some people, well at least I did, trusted his words. So hey,What the F@#$ dude? You just F@#$ed me silly.

Edit 2: This guy was given a chance to fess up. He blew the shyt out of it. I don't even know what to say anymore.

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:
	Neoneoz:
	neKo:	Well said
	TragicHero:
	AxSGRiM:
	Shieldz:
	TAEdarus:

[FaDeGofire]

ok i just saw the riichard replay. that's clear proof of hacking. I am really disappointed in evets. he has lied directly to my face twice already. I was willing to stand up for him even at the cost of losing the community's respect but now i don't trust him anymore. I hope fade kicks him out. sorry for doubting muse and jazbas replays.

Quick Comments

	mGMUSE:
	Peleus:
	NvRossi:
	neKo:
	AxSGRiM:
	TAEdarus:

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by FaDeGofire

ok i just saw the riichard replay. that's clear proof of hacking. I am really disappointed in evets. he has lied directly to my face twice already. I was willing to stand up for him even at the cost of losing the community's respect but now i don't trust him anymore. I hope fade kicks him out. sorry for doubting muse and jazbas replays.

thank you.

i would just like to ask what has he done for the community specifically? just because he's an active GM(undeservingly so) on this site doesn't mean contribution, am i right?

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:
	Shieldz:
	TAEdarus:

[ToRSpartaz]

I love going off topic:

"Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah" - True words of Simon ^^

Edit: Yes it is a serious thread, but what you dont seem to grasp is the gravity of the situation we are. What this thread is doing isn't contributing to the community. Do not questions my motives, yes I am a leader I understand tge responsibility of that. But as you can clearly see this thread has pitted people against each other, essentially changing perceptions of each other which in some circumstances is considerably wrong.

Do you honestly think that a bit of humour actually affects the light of the discussion. The answer is no not in the slightest. Think before you negatively rep and think of the overall situation we are in -.-....

Seriously consider the direction of this conversation what effects it is having on Sc2sea and the SEA community. Just on ladder I have heard about this soo many times, I for one am leaving this in the hands of Nirvana and the mods. They have the best interests of the community at heart, I trust them to do what is best for SEA. So don't turn this into a witch hunt... Do it discretely at your own disgrestion (effed the speelling xD).

Don't take what I say lightly... Dont let all the many hours of fantastic work go to waste in building this incredibly community!! Mods this is on you guys. We trust you to make the best decisions

Quick Comments

	TADivinity:	This is a serious thread. Youre a leader, not a retard
	neKo:	What are you doing
	Bash:	Completely unrelated, going off topic had nothing to do with your "Explanation", it was silly.
	FaDeBadger:	Pointless on so many levels
	Shieldz:	stupid useless waste of time
	syfChadMann:
	TAEdarus:	I understand what you're TRYING to say, but I think you missed the point...

[Rage]

I don't think "having a clean record" should be a mitigating factor in the slightest.

In this case

-the multiple evidence replays of Evets hacking more than once
-lying about hacking at all initially
-lying AGAIN and saying he only did it once

given the above, to me, the only thing "had a clean record" means is "hadn't been caught until now".

And that makes it a pretty flimsy reason to do anything.

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

[Ruscour]

Originally Posted by Rage

I don't think "having a clean record" should be a mitigating factor in the slightest.

In this case

-the multiple evidence replays of Evets hacking more than once
-lying about hacking at all initially
-lying AGAIN and saying he only did it once

given the above, to me, the only thing "had a clean record" means is "hadn't been caught until now".

And that makes it a pretty flimsy reason to do anything.

"Once" doesn't necessarily mean one game, it could just mean one session. I haven't been following this stuff too closely to see if it was over multiple days or anything but multiple replays can still justify "once".

We all have our moments of weakness. He was punished by his team and lost a ton of respect by the community. His apology had sincerity...it is hard to earn people's respect back but I can't see why he doesn't deserve a chance to do that.

SlayerSDragon was a proven maphacker, for crying out loud. People make mistakes and people change.

Quick Comments

	ToRSpartaz:	Well said man, true points. I want this thread buried...
	TAScarecrow:	"it was just this one ladder game" evetS
	TAEdgE:	^
	mGGDaedalus:	If you gonna post at least read the thread properly
	Nemo:	Yes, he deserves a second chance !
	TAEdarus:	"it was just this one ladder game" evetS
	Zealo:	good sentiment, normally i'd say read the thread before posting but the thread is 100 pages of shit at this point
	nGenLight:	Lol he was pretty sincere, lying pretty sincerely.
	sRFullstop:

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by Ruscour

We all have our moments of weakness. He was punished by his team and lost a ton of respect by the community. His apology had sincerity...it is hard to earn people's respect back but I can't see why he doesn't deserve a chance to do that.

My thoughts as well

Edit: I understand people are disappointed with him for hacking, lying, etc and they have every right to be but I don't know what other punishment can be handed out other than getting booted out of FaDe/SC2SEA community. Trust is an important thing and hes broken it, more than once too. From what I've heard he was held in a rather high regard, at least within FaDe and his reputation has been destroyed now. In a way the easy option would be for him to become in-active on these forums but I hope that isn't the case. If he really wants to make up for his wrong-doings he'll hang around, start from the ground-up again and roll with the punches which will no doubt be thrown his way and hope that people give him the chance.

I don't know EvetS at all im completely un-biased in all this, just trying to find any positive direction this can be moved in.

[TragicHero]

Originally Posted by Ruscour

We all have our moments of weakness. He was punished by his team and lost a ton of respect by the community. His apology had sincerity...it is hard to earn people's respect back but I can't see why he doesn't deserve a chance to do that.

Sorry I had to reply you on this. From a neutral point of view, his apology can NOT be sincere since he lied about it. His apology clearly stated that he says sorry for hacking only ONCE against Timber, not any other time (EVER). How can his apology be sincere if he lied about it?

Quick Comments

	Rage:	Yes! I don't know how people can't see this.
	TAEdarus:	Bang on the mark.

[Rage]

Originally Posted by Ruscour

"Once" doesn't necessarily mean one game, it could just mean one session. I haven't been following this stuff too closely to see if it was over multiple days or anything but multiple replays can still justify "once".

We all have our moments of weakness. He was punished by his team and lost a ton of respect by the community. His apology had sincerity...it is hard to earn people's respect back but I can't see why he doesn't deserve a chance to do that.

SlayerSDragon was a proven maphacker, for crying out loud. People make mistakes and people change.

He specifically mentioned it was only one game against TimbeR

[AxSGRiM]

Originally Posted by Rage

He specifically mentioned it was only one game against TimbeR

But now we have riichard's replay

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by nRvGRiM

But now we have riichard's replay

That's the disappointing thing about it.
Guys like GoFire, Badger and myself stuck out our necks for him in front of the sc2sea community.
It's not an easy thing to do, but we did it because he is (or was, I don't know FaDe's ruling on him yet) a fellow clannie, and I'm sure others would do the same.
I don't regret sticking my neck out for him. Would do the same for any other FaDe player or friend accused of hacking.
The disappointing thing is that he took us for granted. We stood by him and trusted his words in which he said 'I only mh'ed once.'
I myself am still willing to give him another chance. We all make mistakes, which is what makes us human. But in light of recent events, I would also approve a harsher penalty.

Anyway I'm done with this thread.
We asked for facts and we got them, and the full story has been seen now.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAriiChard:	Props on FaDe for backing him up.
	nGenLight:	Your best friend always sticking up for you... even when I know you
	Fadey:

[VB_WhiplashJC]

Consider what would happen if we didn't have this conversation. I don't know if you've played a game before that dissolved into cheaters at all levels after you'd put effort into improving at it and building a community, but it ******* sucks.

Quick Comments

	ToRSpartaz:	My point exactly brother, people cant seem to see this ideal... Clearly.. Well put my friend
	Welshy:

[Nemo]

Please stop the lynching now. Yes, he certainly lied. I was quite certain Nirvana and other organizers knew it too.

Yes, what he did is bad. But let keep perspectives about it. He didn't kill anyone nor raped any children. He's a nice kid, helped people of the community, doesn't treat people badly, never was racist with anybody.

Justice is no vengeance or lynching. It aims at giving a message to everyone that if you're behaving badly you will face harsh consequences but it also aim at reintegrating people in the society and community. Put yourself in his situation, don't think that it can't happen to you. We all have made mistakes in our lives. We would want a second chance if (and when) it happens to us.

For his friends, remember why he was your friend in the first place and ask yourself if what he did to you is forgivable or not. Remember real friends are those who still love you when you're down and don't howl with others.

I think that the punishment decided by his clan and Organisers is enough, even considering he hacked more than once.
I think his clan should accept his weakness and doesn't expel him.

If everyone want to lynch him, lynch me with him. I don't find this right.

Quick Comments

	nard:	thank u for the human decency
	mGGDaedalus:
	xGKingdelete:
	nirvAnA:	nemo is a hero!!!!!!
	EveJeonSa:	You are wise :) ♥
	Honeybadger:

[nirvAnA]

SC2SEA's Official Stance on Map Hackers

1. Banned for all SC2SEA tournaments for a period of 6 months.
2. Community work aka "good behavior" introduces the possibility of "parole" which will reduce the sentence by 1-3 months.
3. They will still be allowed to participate in the forums as that will be necessary for their community work.
4. Repeat offenders caught will be banned for life from the site completely, no exceptions.
5. Should they try to circumvent the ban in anyway or join our tournaments earlier (smurfing), they will be banned for life.

It is important to note that not everyone caught map hacking will necessarily change. Under this system those unrepentant will be fully punished but "reforming" players aware of their mistake who have changed their attitude will not be subjected to the same sentence that the unrepentant offenders receive.

Players who are unrepentant will face the stiffer sentence of 6 months, whereas players who have changed their attitudes and reformed themselves will be given the opportunity to be reintegrated in the community earlier but only after proving the change of their attitude through community work. This is similar to the "good behavior" system that reduces jail sentences in prisons.

Like Nemo says:

"Justice is no vengeance or lynching. It aims at giving a message to everyone that if you're behaving badly you will face harsh consequences but it also aim at reintegrating people in the society and community. Put yourself in his situation, don't think that it can't happen to you. We all have made mistakes in our lives. We would want a second chance if (and when) it happens to us."

Community work will be defined for now as:

• Strategy articles (GM and above)
• Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
• Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
• Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

The 1-3 month reduction of sentence will depend on the individuals performance in the above.

EvetS' ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
Keep in mind EvetS never used this in competitions, I believe all he wanted was the respect from having a nice ladder record.

Meany's ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
There have been enough analysis from Jazbas, SPR, Nemo, myself and many various other people to conclude that he indeed was hacking.

---

Moved all the EvetS drama here so we can continue catching the other hackers in the other thread. Nemo makes a very mature post which I moved just below and I hope everyone can read that first with an open mind before picking up their pitch forks. We hate hackers, we are aware how much it hurts the scene. Thats why there was even this thread made in the first place and hacking whatever the reasons is inexcusable. But it doesn't mean we should be so quick to crucify a former respected member of this community and offer him no chance of redemption.

The problem now seems to be the "punishment" given, which some find to be too lenient and not setting a proper precedence whereas others find it adequate and are aware the "true punishment" has been the outting, the shame, loss of friends and complete destruction of his reputation which he has build over the last year. These people believe in rehabilitation, which by the way won't be an easy road - and expect EvetS to do a decent amount of community work to begin to atone for what he did.

I am one of those people and I believe in second chances, certain members of this forum who have made mistakes before wouldn't even be here today if I didn't. I also believe Sensei was given a chance by TA after map hacking in Starcraft 1, and is a good example of how someone who has recognised his mistake can change for the better to become a positive, contributive member of the community. Please keep that in mind.

Meanwhile, the sc2sea admins will be having a discussion bearing in mind the new evidence that has surfaced and the OP will be updated later.

[Rockstar]

In light of all evidence in this thread, letting him compete in any tournaments again is going to cause dramas. I personally would refuse to play him at all.

[TAEdarus]

I honestly don't know what would truly be fair in this situation.

Everyone has already laid out the situation so I won't do it again, however, given the evidence, lying and lying and lying (recurring)... I don't feel right about the situation as it is.

Ultimately FaDe / SC2SEA Admin's decision when it comes to both parties respectively, but this just does not sit right with me.


I WOULD like to clarify, too, that nobody has directly attacked, berated or abused EvetS (in this thread (that i'm aware of)) so please do not take these posts as a lash out at him.
We're discussing the issue as it unfolded and the repercussions of the outcome as well as incident.

This is OUR community. We ALL deserve our opinion and the right to voice them. Please do NOT take anything said by ANYONE here as a personal attack on the man.

I'm sorry he's got sh1t going on in life, i've been there recently myself. Its disappointing he didn't handle these issues in a more private / responsible way, but I DO wish him the best in sorting them out.

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by TAEdarus

I WOULD like to clarify, too, that nobody has directly attacked, berated or abused EvetS (in this thread (that i'm aware of))

Do you seriously mean this?




Just some samples of verbal abuse:

it affects the entire community, so how about you let us collectively set a precedent for how to best deal with the scum of the earth, thanks.

I honestly believe that the same punishment should apply here to FaDeNooB, which includes a permanent ban from future SEA tournaments.

I don't agree with many other things you said in your post Edarus, but ok I'm lazy to quote and elaborate further. Goodnight

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Do you seriously mean this?




Just some samples of verbal abuse:





I don't agree with many other things you said in your post Edarus, but ok I'm lazy to quote and elaborate further. Goodnight

I believe the case about EvetS will die down the moment the proper punishment is given to him, not just for his constant wrongdoings, but also to set an example for the hackers out there.

[nGenLight]

I think most everyone is aware of the gravity of the punishment that is getting classified as a maphacker - that is the harshest punishment that will follow him wherever he goes.

My only problem I have is the fact that a serious offense like maphacking is only formally punished by a 3 months ban from the biggest SEA community. In comparison - Blizzard simply closed accounts, Bored Aussie has an at least 12 month period before the subject could even appeal for an unban. Did TA accept Sensei 3 months after his crime? Or did it take a good x years. A 3 months ban to a maphacker (an obvious lying one aswell) is very dangerous precedence.

I'm calling for at least a 6 months to 12 months ban. He can get his second chance then. Also adding to the fact that now he is a proven liar (shady character - nice outside, dodgey secrets) - This is not the type of person nor the type of offense you want to show leniency towards - He didn't argue with an admin, he didn't troll like a Zanooku, what he did was an direct crime towards competitive gaming, had multiple chances to fess up and continued to lie - Why would you show leniency to someone like that? There are situations and issues we can be lenient about - I don't think we should show the rest of the world and people contemplating maphacking that this is something we would be in anyways lenient towards.

Quick Comments

	TAScarecrow:	agreed and afaik he only copped 2 months
	asdfSchnitzel:
	breadfan:	I like the idea of having the ban time set in stone
	syfPhoenix:
	TragicHero:

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

I think most everyone is aware of the gravity of the punishment that is getting classified as a maphacker - that is the harshest punishment that will follow him wherever he goes.

My only problem I have is the fact that a serious offense like maphacking is only formally punished by a 3 months ban from the biggest SEA community. In comparison - Blizzard simply closed accounts, Bored Aussie has an at least 12 month period before the subject could even appeal for an unban. Did TA accept Sensei 3 months after his crime? Or did it take a good x years. A 3 months ban to a maphacker (an obvious lying one aswell) is very dangerous precedence.

I'm calling for at least a 6 months to 12 months ban. He can get his second chance then. Also adding to the fact that now he is a proven liar (shady character - nice outside, dodgey secrets) - This is not the type of person nor the type of offense you want to show leniency towards - He didn't argue with an admin, he didn't troll like a Zanooku, what he did was an direct crime towards competitive gaming, had multiple chances to fess up and continued to lie - Why would you show leniency to someone like that? There are situations and issues we can be lenient about - I don't think we should show the rest of the world and people contemplating maphacking that this is something we would be in anyways lenient towards.

Totally agree there. Would he had admitted to his multiple maphacking instances, instead of lying about just maphacking ONCE, a three month ban would have sounded reasonable. But leaving it any less than a long term ban seems totally unjustifiable, given that he went through a series of atrocious actions to dealing with this issue.

Originally Posted by elimzke

As long as he realises it was stupid shit and doesn't do it again, I have no problem with it. I was a known hacker in Counter-Strike: Source in 2008 until I was caught, and then started again fresh and fought my way back into the competitive scene with proper play. Hopefully EvetS can do the same. I trust that he didn't hack in tournaments anyway, and ladder is mostly just all-in rubbish.

As Light mentioned, the gravity of being a known maphacker will severely affect is reputation for a long, long while so I don't have a problem with giving him a second chance.

He's already told the community that "he realized it was stupid shit" to hack with his confession post. However, in his "I realized what I was doing was stupid shit and I admit it"(confession) post, he lied over and over again. If the situation is just left hanging, it's just an indicator for future hackers to say "Hey guys! Hack your hearts out! If you're ever caught and you have no bad records on you, feel free to run away scot-free and defend yourself and lie to everyone in the community until you're eventually pinned to the corner with concrete evidence!".

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[FvRelimzkE]

As long as he realises it was stupid shit and doesn't do it again, I have no problem with it. I was a known hacker in Counter-Strike: Source in 2008 until I was caught, and then started again fresh and fought my way back into the competitive scene with proper play. Hopefully EvetS can do the same. I trust that he didn't hack in tournaments anyway, and ladder is mostly just all-in rubbish.

As Light mentioned, the gravity of being a known maphacker will severely affect is reputation for a long, long while so I don't have a problem with giving him a second chance.

Quick Comments

asdfSchnitzel:

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by elimzke

As long as he realises it was stupid shit and doesn't do it again, I have no problem with it. I was a known hacker in Counter-Strike: Source in 2008 until I was caught, and then started again fresh and fought my way back into the competitive scene with proper play. Hopefully EvetS can do the same. I trust that he didn't hack in tournaments anyway, and ladder is mostly just all-in rubbish.

As Light mentioned, the gravity of being a known maphacker will severely affect is reputation for a long, long while so I don't have a problem with giving him a second chance.

Allegedly he hacked vs JazBas in a Community Open, was bought up long ago by JazBas but dismissed back then. Don't know if that was proven or not.

[DeekZ]

Damn this thing is crazy, lots of difference in opinions.

I think the best cause of action would just be to ban him for a few months from the site, and then leave it alone. The stigma he's going to carry around for the rest of his days if he continues playing under that ID is going to suck enough as it is, and with all eyes on him now he most likely won't be hacking any time soon..

Not to mention whatever punishment is handed down by his clan, whether that be removal or something else. It sucks this whole thing had to happen and that he felt like he had to lie about it but certainly everyone can understand why he would lie about it.. considering the backlash we're seeing now that we know for sure.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Cordance]

Originally Posted by Revenant

He's already told the community that "he realized it was stupid shit" to hack with his confession post. However, in his "I realized what I was doing was stupid shit and I admit it"(confession) post, he lied over and over again. If the situation is just left hanging, it's just an indicator for future hackers to say "Hey guys! Hack your hearts out! If you're ever caught and you have no bad records on you, feel free to run away scot-free and defend yourself and lie to everyone in the community until you're eventually pinned to the corner with concrete evidence!".

You know I kind of like the idea of hackers only getting exposed when you have evidence ... I mean I like mob justice as much as the next guy (in the mob) but the amount of hacking and smurfing accusations that get thrown around I would rather the precedent be set that we need to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. The thought of someone getting lucky by sending mutas around the map so they dont get spotted and running into a drop ship and suddenly get cast out of the community should be something to give you pause.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	This post reeks of maphacker... JOKES!
	nirvAnA:

[Nemo]

Well, I hate what I'm going to do because I will revive a story that is now "closed". But I guess you can't get away with bad behavior without being punished for it forever.

I wanted to just show it to Nirvana and Edge so they can pass the information to the main character of this story but Nirvana absolutly wanted me to post it openly.

I have fumed a lot about the lynching of Evets because we have a precedent when someone blatantly cheated, never admitted and got away with it because he had powerful friends. I hate it when justice applies to you differently whether you have powerful allies or not so I will refresh some memories about the Meany case:
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php...ighlight=Meany

The videos : http://fr.justin.tv/nemoulysses/videos

At that time, Cosmos and I were utterly surprised that everybody did not see the obvious. Cosmos, by the way, never came back here, really disappointed by the way things went.

So I don't want any harm done to Meany, he got away with it, good for him. But I really would like to remind people of the fact that men justice must be very careful with punishment because it can carry its own injustice.

Being too harsh with Evets would be unfair considering that other cheaters who never admitted anything simply get away with it. And it was only 6 month ago. Poor Sensei who admitted too still hear for his own deeds 5 years after ... What message do we send ? Don't admit, that's far better for you ?

Quick Comments

	x5_dot:	Exactly.
	FaDeBadger:	Wise words, was thinking of that case myself but couldn't find it
	nirvAnA:	The double standards in this thread and that one is eye opening
	TAScarecrow:	hacker gets away with it so we must be nice to evetS?
	sRFullstop:
	EveMassacrisM:	Yep. MeaNy clearly was hacking yet no punishment was given out.

[nirvAnA]

Summary of meany thread: (full thread)

• Cosmos genuinely felt Meany was hacking, made a proper post with analysis based on incriminating evidence to warn the community but instead got shot down and attacked for making accusations. The comments even pressured Cosmos to end up apologizing!!
• Nemo got attacked too for analysing the games and bringing suspicious plays to attention and was even accused of being cosmo's smurf
• That is really ironic to see if you compare this thread to meanys thread, because of the influence of the people defending meany.
• Alot of posts supporting the idea he map hacked by Zergirl, Dox, MassacrisM ended up being ignored.
• Disappointed at what happened after trying to alert the community, comos left SC2SEA and never returned.
• Meany got away scot free.

Replay:

http://terranimba.com/replay/3OJk3YzUUOVj2Z

MUST WATCH Vods of the blatant hacking from the replay:

http://www.justin.tv/nemoulysses/b/289420237
http://www.justin.tv/nemoulysses/b/289421746

Revenant, muse, riichard and all those involved in the analysis of replays in this thread please watch this and tell me your conclusion, viewing it with the same level of objectivity as EvetS games. How different it is from evets other "blatant hacking" replays?

This was actually a big mistake on my part, as I was busy with a project at that time and did not watch the replay/vods back then to make a formal SC2SEA decision. I just wrote a disclaimer in the OP based on the comments I was seeing to keep things in the thread civil.

Dox felt it was incriminating, as well as Timber, TALost, Zerggirl, MassacrisM, V_enDetta and the SPR team led by Master, who felt it too suspicious rightly removed him from SPR. SPR is an awesome clan btw whom i love. They were however among the minority, with the majority of his friends supporting meany.

There was also surprisingly absolutely ZERO pressure then to make a formal community decision about the matter.

As such a conclusion was never reached, meany got away scot free and the thread was closed by Baka as things were getting out of hand. (There was hardly any drama on sc2sea at that time)

I think the lesson to learn from this is how not to let the certain vocal members alter your decision. Meany had the support of friends and ended up getting away scot free.

His friends were basically doing what FaDe was doing in this thread. Supporting their mates like any good friend would do. Everyone has double standards when it comes to your friends as compared to a person you do not know. Had evets being from another big clan instead of FaDe, I feel yes he will be condemned by all, but this thread and suggestions here will have turned up being very different. Look what happened to meany for instance, he got away SCOT FREE!!! And it is not the fault of his friends either its just human nature to stick up for your mates.

Its just that meany had ALOT of credible friends like Jazbas (whos totally awesome btw who goes out on a limb to support his buddy), Zergtastic (BSGadmin) and some of TA, and that made it look like there "wasn't enough evidence" and cosmos was seen as a "rager / baseless acuser" when that couldn't be further from the truth.

EvetS was a by far much more contributive member, he even came out to admit his hacking rather then deny it like meany - what is he rewarded with? A life ban instead of getting away scot free? He now basically faces a SC2 death sentence, which even I now feel pressured to give because of some very vocal comments from influential members in this thead but I still don't believe is the right thing to do as it offers no redemption, which is the road evets has started on by choosing to admit his hacking instead of denying it.

As nemo has said the message now being sent is if you're caught deny it at all costs and you get away scot free. Rather than what the message should be - When suspected admit it, do your time and after doing community work slowly get rehabilitated into the community, it is not the end of SC2 for you if you are able to admit your mistake.

[Rage]

I don't think a more significant ban is warranted. 3months is more than satisfactory and I agree that any more of a ban would likely simply result in leaving the community for good, which then makes the punishment irrelevant.

I just want people to stop using his "confession" and his "clean record" as mitigating factors when they speak about him, because both were clearly lies - he had absolutely not only done it once, and his clean record was only due to not yet being caught - and not something to be admired.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	Whole heartedly agree long ban = leave community = irrelevant punishment
	Volition:	The punishment is satisfactory. So many people are just quoting "the floodgates will open" re cheaters. Good to see someone who is level headed

[NvRossi]

I know for sure that meany admitted to stream cheating and not to map hacking to a friend. 100% just as bad though

Quick Comments

TATheMoonStar:

Correct, MeaNy was not hacking

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TARossi

I know for sure that meany admitted to stream cheating and not to map hacking to a friend. 100% just as bad though

For those who need context, here it is.

+ [context] +

EveMassacrisM's Analysis of the replay:

14:17 Again randomly checking the marine at the natural of the 2 oclock spawning position. Zero vision.

Myth_au's Analysis of the replay:

14.17 he clickes into a fog of war right where a marine is again. Does not command. At the time he had his tanks select and its a mile away.

But hes explaining all his actions here, saying he wanted to scan.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=24422&postcount=69

Meany: "I had to admit, that it really did seem like I was maphacking. But here's the explanation that you guys would want to hear. If you check my command centers, none of them had enough mana for a scan. I cannot remember every single detail of what moving my camera to a certain spot meant, but I am definitely sure that I was attempting to give a scan. "

In response to that clock replied:

+ Show +

not long after (just after he kills marine at expo in the 15th minute) he also looks at fog directly over the opponents army. at this point he does not select his command centre, nor issue any kind of attack move that i can see. fuirther to this point, he just called down 2 mules and would be well aware he does not have a scan anyway (at least i would in that short space of time) watch it on normal speed and you will see what I mean

In response to that EveMassacrisM replied:

+ Show +

Let's just assume you were planning to scan at the natural at the 1 o' clock position at 14:17(Where the random scouting marine was). You clicked your CCs and attempted a scan but realized you had no energy. If you had no energy, would you mind explaining why you flip your screen immediately afterwards to Cosmos' expo at 11 o' clock when you knew you had no energy ?

Moreover, that still hasn't explained why you randomly flipped your screen to look at the scouting marine at the 6 o clock position at 11:57. Were you attempting to scan there too ?

Both these responses were never addressed.

Point is - if he was stream cheating he wouldn't even bother to scan there was just a single marine there he would know that - This means EITHER his "stream cheating" excuse which he confessed to a friend privately was a lie OR his explanation given in that thread was a lie so how can his other words be trusted? And yea don't see how stream cheating can be defended since that's cheating as well, like you have said Rossi, its the same thing but people there (if aware he stream cheated) were defending him for it.

Quick Comments

tex0111_slyguy_golden:

[Sanctify]

Oh now we wouldn't want that...I think this community would really miss the presence of a liar and hacker if they were to leave. Lets be lenient so they can come back and **** with us some more, and show other hackers that we like having them here.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

just go away already

[Volition]

I agree with Nirvanas post - it is funny how some members are extremely vocal in this thread about cheaters but downplay it and deny it (despite the evidence) in the old thread. Sorta interesting how the "cheaters are the scum of the earth and should be hanged" is in this thread, but they are 100% sure Meany did not cheated in the other game, and ignore posts much better than those made by themselves in this thread.

Is the moral of the story that if you are going to cheat, you better have high friends in the sc2sea community??

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAEdgE:	i dont like your posts

[Spud]

Originally Posted by Volition

Is the moral of the story that if you are going to cheat, you better have high friends in the sc2sea community??

LOL. High friends a;lkdfja;lkdf. That makes me laugh.

On the hacking, Ive always wondered how retarded the motives for hacking are. Why do people actually do it, is it to be famous on the interwebs at a computer game? So you can act like a mobster on b.net or something? If you get a power-trip from Starcraft u might need more than a 3month ban, maybe a 3year stint is a psych ward.

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

The voice of Voices voices its opinion

[TAriiChard]

Hi Nirvana,

Firstly, may you please add a feature to the website where if someone types up a response on a thread and then accidentally clicks on a link, they can click on "back" and what they wrote before will appear instead of disappear. Thanks... TT

For me, I've always been an "innocent until proven guilty" type of guy. In MeaNy's situation, sure there was a lot of evidence proving that he was a map hacker but there wasn't that defining piece of evidence to prove him 100% guilty like that piece of evidence I gave in the FaDeEvets case. Even if 90% of me thought that he was guilty, what if that 10% of MeaNy being not guilty was correct then how bad would we all feel if we convicted him and banned him from sc2sea and events as well as imprint the "hacker" tag on his forehead. If I could go back in time I would have listened to Nemo and Cosmos and given more constructive responses but I would have continued to defend MeaNy which is similar to what FaDe has done for Evets.

The differences between the two situations can be seen from their respected clan's responses to the situations. In MeaNy's case, his team came in defense by saying that he was "too noob as a maphack player" and "meany is one of the most fcking noob in our clan". This was followed by a statement by SPR stating that MeaNy had left their team because he didn't want to ruin their image and that a few members didn't support him... What did FaDe do? They defended the shit out of Evets to such an extent that it made them look bad when more evidence came out that concluded that Evets was a hacker. Where am I going with this? I really have no idea but I guess it’s to say that the two events were extremely different with a diverse of responses from numerous parties that would have altered the decision of whether or not these two players were guilty or not…

In short, even though there was a lot of evidence against MeaNy it didn’t feel as though he was 100% guilty and due to my nature I felt inclined to defend him. FaDeEvets was 100% guilty with plenty of evidence thus why he has been punished.

Also, saying that MeaNy got away scot free is incorrect as he was kind of forced to leave the clan (he wouldn’t stay in a clan that didn’t believe in what he said) while Evets hasn’t been forced to leave the clan, and we do give MeaNy shit for being a hacker (in a joking manner).

Quick Comments

	Meatex:	Most FaDe members didn't defend his hacking, just that he be granted a 2nd chance
	ChaynesOre:	It was more about the due process of providing damning evidence, which hadn't been fulfilled entirely before your replay
	AxSGRiM:

[Meatex]

My first statement (made prior to the damning evidence provided by riichard) can be seen here for reference -> http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=190

I can certainly understand the anger that people feel when he gets just a 3 month ban and community service despite even lying in his admission of guilt but I also understand that he is young and immature - while not an excuse for what he did I do hope people realise that warrants a chance at redemption at some point in the future.

FaDe feels that at the time of my first statement the punishment was adequate and even with the full story now clear I strongly believe that completely removing him from the community is the wrong path to take.
I am very disappointed in his actions, not only the hacking but lying to our faces - even in his admission post - and as he betrayed our trust it with heavy hear that I must announce some further extension of his punishment from FaDe's end.
Though we will not kick and ostracize him just to save the reputation of FaDe - we will support him as friends when he hopefully get things IRL sorted and returns to do his time - but we feel it necessary to extend the punishment to an indefinite ban from all FaDe events both internal and external until such time that we feel he has earned back the trust that he has so squandered.
This is not a kick from FaDe as it is an extended form of severe probation. Some may disagree with this choice but I stand by my original thoughts on the issue.

This was a very tough decision for FaDe. We do not support hacking / cheating in any way shape or form but with that said, EvetS is a mate, a nice and helpful guy within FaDe at the very least and hope that with lesson learned and dues paid he will one day become an invaluable member of the community.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	I fully respect FaDe for everything they've done about this issue
	nirvAnA:	True friends stick by you when everyone else has left. Go FaDe! :)
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	I support that

[TATheMoonStar]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

We hate hackers, we are aware how much it hurts the scene. Thats why there was even this thread made in the first place and hacking whatever the reasons is inexcusable. But it doesn't mean we should be so quick to crucify a former respected member of this community and offer him no chance of redemption.

Personally, I feel that it does.

Quick Comments

Spud:

U are the moonstar

[nGenLight]

Well personally, cheating in a major competitive game such as StarCraft II with such a large community deserves a severe punishment on the fringe of banishment, regardless of screen cheating or maphacking. In my personal opinion, any caught cheaters should deserve at least 6 months - This is simply an offense too great to be lenient towards. I missed the entire meany drama until now, but IMO they should both get a very long ban. Though I do have to say that going through the net looking for maphack takes a more severe desire to cheat than to stream cheat - and either way we cannot prove if Meany stream cheated or simply maphacked, so IMO the same punishment is needed.

The defense that he was a former respected member is weak - The fact that he got to respectability through possible cheating and cheating behind a respectable name is pretty disgusting.

The hardest thing is that outside of subjective opinion, we do not possess any technology that could prove anyone of actually cheating. In Dota, a good player's usual defense towards cheating accusations was superior insight. So whether we need to invest in more technology or get all seriousA and/or adopt a panel of respected juries, it will take some serious progress before we can actively weed out the cheaters.

It looks like the mods have made up their decision on this matter - to allow the subject a very quick chance to redemption. Although I echo numerous voices in the community by taking a harder stance (moreso because the subjects lied multiple times about it), the decision is very understandable.

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

The hardest thing is that outside of subjective opinion, we do not possess any technology that could prove anyone of actually cheating. In Dota, a good player's usual defense towards cheating accusations was superior insight. So whether we need to invest in more technology or get all seriousA and/or adopt a panel of respected juries, it will take some serious progress before we can actively weed out the cheaters.

Are you familiar with a PVPGN server by the name of Bored Aussies? They have a maphacking sort of 'jury' as you would call it who watch through replays and only ban with conclusive evidence, mostly centred around DotA.
Of course this is completely different as there are tools for Warcraft 3 that help them detect, but I think a sort of same thing here would actually be helpful. Of course we would need to gather more than 1 replay, maybe I dont know, a number of 5~ or so replays, unless it's so bloody blatant that you don't need more than one replay.

Would need to find the most trustworthy and unbiased jury however, and finding a way of moderating them.

Just my 2 cents.

Quick Comments

Flamga:

agreed

[ChaynesOre]

I'll echo that thing riiChard said earlier about the losing your entire text when it doesn't think you're logged in and you have to go back in the browser :S

I think somebody mentioned this way back in the thread but having just made EvetS the example/lesson/warning for everybody in the SEA scene, I imagine there'll be a much harsher penalty next time somebody is caught. And I'm not telling you guys how to do your job here because you're legends, but perhaps a written policy for your stance on hacking will serve as both a deterrent and a non-debatable platform from which to base punishments?

As for the Blizzard/clan issues, those should be their business only. As a member of FaDe, I'm personally quite happy with how things have turned out. I'll echo what Meatex said earlier in that a lot (hours upon hours) of discussion went into dealing with this over the past two days. I find it curious however how much pressure there is on a clan to act on something like this. Regardless of what we decided to do, it should remain only our business, and I think it's a shame we're somewhat forced into dolling out a harsher punishment for PR sake if nothing else (although I do happen to agree with it). It's simplistically logical for an outsider to think "a FaDe member hacks, the clan doesn't kick him? they're all hackers / support hacking and a bad clan" but I don't know how many people would truly believe that, although it's kind of the thing everybody is assuming in the back of their minds. I just think everything gets somewhat muddled in the politics and messages a bit too much, but such is community life I guess.

See you all next year.. I'mma go get drunk now.

[Cute]

Originally Posted by chaynesore

Regardless of what we decided to do, it should remain only our business, and I think it's a shame we're somewhat forced into dolling out a harsher punishment for PR sake if nothing else (although I do happen to agree with it). It's simplistically logical for an outsider to think "a FaDe member hacks, the clan doesn't kick him? they're all hackers / support hacking and a bad clan" but I don't know how many people would truly believe that, although it's kind of the thing everybody is assuming in the back of their minds. I just think everything gets somewhat muddled in the politics and messages a bit too much, but such is community life I guess.

See you all next year.. I'mma go get drunk now.

I don't believe many people think that. If anything, I see a lot of support for FaDe members for sticking by their friend. He told them he only did it once. They're his friends, why wouldn't they support him? I can't see how anyone can be upset with the way FaDe members acted. It's sure as hell what I'd do.

Quick Comments

	EveJeonSa:
	Nemo:	Agreed

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by FadeRicochet

Would need to find the most trustworthy and unbiased jury however, and finding a way of moderating them.

I don't think a formal jury just for this is necessary just because hacking (seemingly) isn't that regular an occurrence to justify such a group.
What we have now is sufficient IMO, in that our 'jury' is basically the admin/moderating team of SC2SEA.


While I don't agree with what chaynesore said, this is good:

but perhaps a written policy for your stance on hacking will serve as both a deterrent and a non-debatable platform from which to base punishments?

CC: nirvAnA!

[Snx`Azz]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but there used to be a clan called x-17 in broodwar and it was a pretty well known hacker team.

Is this the same evets we talking about? Evetsx-17?

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[tex0111_slyguy_golden]

I watched the replay of FadeEvets and Marc and I didn't notice any cheating, yes the drone pull off at the expansion was weird but he was only 250 minerals and with the 3 drones he might of did that because of the late pool to check for a bunker and the overlord never saw the drone leave the area even thought it wasn't revealing whole ramp at the expansion and if he was map hacking why would he move his overseer at Marc's 2nd expansion to see what's going on at the 3rd expansion?

Plus I watched whole replay in Marc point of view and watched for any of FadeEvets clicking on Marc' units and there was none at all that I could find so he couldn't be cheating and where has he admitted to cheating as the link says FadeEvets admint's to cheating?

only reason I checked this out is becuase I never cheat and never will, so I like to find outif ppl do.

Quick Comments

	TCPKiaSu:	read the thread dude.... evets admitted to hacking already and he lied 2 times :(
	NvJazBas:	^
	mGGDaedalus:	post
	Fourby:	Use more fullstops and comma's i feel out of breath even reading your post in my head
	NvRossi:	Get a new head
	JaFF:	what deathwing said
	RicocheT:	*tactical face palm*
	TragicHero:	D:
	AxSGRiM:	hurt my soul
	Drizabone:	A+ for effort
	Dox:	engrish
	SLCN.NXZ:	I thought that guy in the naniwa thread was the most ridiculous a post on these forums could get, you proved me wrong
	iM yang:	what a head
	Zanderax:	Doesn't deserve that! Offsetting a bit
	FaDeBadger:	Does deserve it
	EveMassacrisM:	What what the the f*** f*** ? - Day9
	TAScarecrow:	deserved
	wolf:	this guy
	nirvAnA:	lesson learned. chin up mate, just be sure to read the thread first next time :)
	TAEdarus:	..|..

[TASponge]

He only admitted to it cause he got caught, as he said"it was easy to get away with". Doesn't deserve any sympathy.

[Strafe]

Maphacking is just very sad. Just ban him indefinitely until you decide to give him another chance. 3 months is so little, and so is 6. Imo you shouldn't be allowed to compete for a long time when you do such thing otherwise it just doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

And lol at still sucking so hard when you maphack

Quick Comments

	TargA:	hahaha
	MooZfY:	I sooooooooooooooooooo argree
	TAScarecrow:
	TASponge:
	x5.Revenant:	Baller!
	nirvAnA:	easy to kick someone when he's down. cmon strafe ^_^ ~!
	TAEdarus:	Minus the jab at his skill, I agree.

[wolf]

I agree with Light's latest post. I think 3 months which was reduced to 2 is too weak of a precedent for other cases that are sure to follow. Personally, I believe 6 months would be adequate for this type of situation, with 12 months given if the person doesn't come clean. To those saying that this would be e-death for him within the scene, I'd say that it was his own fault in the first place to use the hack. Responsibility doesn't fall on the courts system when a person is found guilty of child molestation (lol Light, , any crime, really). This is the premier site for an entire server, and in my opinion the punishment needs to be higher, regardless of who it is.

Quick Comments

	ToRsupapower:	Doesn't matter who it is really, they all deserve a proper punishment
	Strafe:

[Nemo]

I can understand people are angry with them and want harder punishment than 2 or 3 months. But don't forget it's already harder since there is community work too.

It's easy to forget but I can tell from the very few I do myself that's a lot of work and dedication. It's not because Nirvana and other do a crazy amount of work here that it's all fun and pleasure. It's actually working for others, but it's still working.

If people want more punishment, then let's make the community work harder. For example it could be doing paid coaching for people and payment is given to sc2sea instead. The player could not come back in tournament until 200$ is paid by satisfied coached players to the site. The player could not pay himself and must have positive feedback from each coached student.

He must make a thread himself, search for people who would want paid coaching etc. He can search outside sc2sea, in NA forum or EU etc. It's even better if he searches outside so not make competition to other payed coaches like PiG for example.

Gaining 200$ for the site is not so easy (if you think so, just try ) and would ease the anger of people (especially those who could win it in a tournament) against him. It would also help him redeem himself by working for others by his coaching.

6 month of tournament ban or 3 (or 2) months with hard community work. The culprits can choose. It would be easier to do for people who has already the habit to help. That's all good.

The 200$ might be too much, I don't know. It's yours to say.

There are so better ways of punishing someone for "light" crimes than just letting passing time. Construction and redeeming by work and help is so much better.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	haha nemo no $$ necessary. i was thinking he gives back like 20 hours of free coaching to the community
	mGGDaedalus:	3mths with proven dedication means more than 6months of nothing

[nirvAnA]

I dont know why the meany case is being ignored. No one stepping out to do analysis, no one demanding he be brought to justice, people still focusing on attacking evets. I think theres some crazy double standards going on.

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I dont know why the meany case is being ignored. No one stepping out to do analysis, no one demanding he be brought to justice, people still focusing on attacking evets. I think theres some crazy double standards going on.

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

I thought this thread was only in relation to evets, due to the thread title Nirv. Like I said in my previous post, I would support meany getting a substantially harsher punishment due to him denying it. Nemo I do like your idea, thought raising $200 might even be worse than a 6 month ban! :-p

[NvRossi]

What are the admins views on Meanys case? i say ban him from tournaments for 6 months too

[Peleus]

I'd have to agree with him going up on the cheaters wall - It was pretty clear map hacking imo.

[Strafe]

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	ROFL well said
	NvJazBas:
	mGMUSE:	being a manipulative bitch seems like a useful skill toi have in poker
	nirvAnA:	I like the strafe two posts down more
	Rage:
	TCPKiaSu:

[Rockstar]

This issue has really been pissing me off lately. My tongues been somewhat tied on the issue for obvious reasons but now there's all this talk of reform and rehabilitation, giving back to the community etc. etc. and It's just.... pissing me off.

I have but one question.....

WHY the **** are we even contemplating rehabilitation and reformation. This is absolutely ridiculous. It truly is. Hacking is the single worst thing that you can do in this community... The only thing every person on this site has in common is the desire to play Starcraft 2. Blatantly cheating at it disrespects every single individual that has ever bothered to make an account on this website. We are not a conglomeration of saints put here to reform people back into our community. We shouldn't be welcoming anyone who cheats back into the community with open arms. It's absolutely ridiculous. They have cheated every single person here... Every ******* one of you... They've lied to your face, they've chuckled behind your backs... They're probably flickin their bean over the thread right now having a good old laugh before they can rejoin the community and not get -->caught<-- hacking again...

Starcraft 2 isn't just some bullshit game on the internet... It's a strategic free thinking mechanical battle of the wits. This game combines so many valued abilities... It's the equivelant of playing chess with 6 grams up your nose.

I'm not the best SC2 player in the world... I don't compete in the GM league and dedicate hours upon hours of my time to becoming the best... But there's a lot of you that do... These cheating scumbags have blatantly robbed you... You may not even know it... Every one of you think back to when you last played one of these hackers... Did you lose? were you pissed off? did they make you ragequit? did you just know something wasn't right... That you lost even though you knew you should have won?? was it enjoyable for you to lose a game you should never have lost? Did it make you want to get up and start playing again? or just turn the game off and go do something else?

Hacking is just cheap laughs at someone elses expense... These people are all laughing at you. Whether you thought they were your friend or not, they're laughing their asses off... at you.

I can understand that some people may feel attached to these people. They might have been your friend for a long ass time... a good bloke.... That doesn't change the fact they're pissing themselves laughing at you.

This is a very very silly precedent to set. It's just giving a massive thumbs up to anyone who would even consider using hacks.

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	Take deep breath, calm down, then realise everyone deserves a second chance
	Meatex:	take some time to go back and re-read my reasoning behind his punishment. then talk to me if you still have doubts
	mGMUSE:	very true, respect
	TCPKiaSu:
	TAScarecrow:
	fray`Alpha:

[Strafe]

Even though I sort of agree with the message of your post I think you bring it way too harsh. Chill out a bit and realize Starcraft 2 is still foremost a game played for fun. Of course there are going to be some that cheat and they completely kill the fair competition factor and should be ostracized for it. However, I wouldn't go as far as saying they are the scum of the earth.

I'm sure somewhere deep down theres a chance that Evets regrets what he did. He isn't necessarily laughing at our expense. It may very well be that he feels like a dumb dick now and there should be at least the option of him coming back somewhere in the future. Just not the near future imo.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	+1
	Maynarde:	Well said
	EveMassacrisM:	Is that rly u Strafe :)
	nirvAnA:	Now this is the strafe i know!
	wolf:	<3

[nirvAnA]

SC2SEA's Official Stance on Map Hackers

1. Banned for all SC2SEA tournaments for a period of 6 months.
2. Community work aka "good behavior" introduces the possibility of "parole" which will reduce the sentence by 1-3 months.
3. They will still be allowed to participate in the forums as that will be necessary for their community work.
4. Repeat offenders caught will be banned for life from the site completely, no exceptions.
5. Should they try to circumvent the ban in anyway or join our tournaments earlier (smurfing), they will be banned for life.

It is important to note that not everyone caught map hacking will necessarily change. Under this system those unrepentant will be fully punished but "reforming" players aware of their mistake who have changed their attitude will not be subjected to the same sentence that the unrepentant offenders receive.

Players who are unrepentant will face the stiffer sentence of 6 months, whereas players who have changed their attitudes and reformed themselves will be given the opportunity to be reintegrated in the community earlier but only after proving the change of their attitude through community work. This is similar to the "good behavior" system that reduces jail sentences in prisons.

Like Nemo says:

"Justice is no vengeance or lynching. It aims at giving a message to everyone that if you're behaving badly you will face harsh consequences but it also aim at reintegrating people in the society and community. Put yourself in his situation, don't think that it can't happen to you. We all have made mistakes in our lives. We would want a second chance if (and when) it happens to us."

Community work will be defined for now as:

• Strategy articles (GM and above)
• Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
• Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
• Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

The 1-3 month reduction of sentence will depend on the individuals performance in the above.

EvetS' ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
Keep in mind EvetS never used this in competitions nor played in many tournaments, I believe all he wanted was the respect from having a nice ladder record.

Meany's ban starts today: 3rd January and will be lifted on the 3rd of July
There have been enough analysis from Jazbas, Clan SPR, Nemo, myself and many various other people to conclude that he indeed was hacking.

Quick Comments

	asdfSchnitzel:	+1
	TAXanT:
	wolf:	laying the smackdown
	TAScarecrow:
	Nemo:	I support SC2SEA decision

[nGenLight]

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	Couldn't have said it better
	asdfSchnitzel:
	Nemo:	Thanks heaps for the explanation. It's clearer for me now. :)
	mGMUSE:
	NvJazBas:
	Rage:
	Champi:

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Nemo: Your sentiments means very well and as such is clearly very well respected by the entire community. I am in complete agreeance with most of the things you say about rehabilitation and forgiving etc.

The only thing I'm going to disagree with you is your perception of the level of crime of hacking in SC2. As someone who has spent hours, days, weeks, months, failing uni, losing girlfriends playing the game, my perception of people cheating at the game that I love, that I've spent hours on, and was somewhat financially dependent on, whilst the guy smiled and lied to my face, is going to be very different from yours - This is what you need to understand. As you also may have noticed, the people who were the most outspoken about this are top tier players who are known work horses who'vs spent hours improving at this game just to have some savage use shortcuts to get to where they are via cheating. Just the thought of playing Evets in all those ladder games where he always knew what units I was making and my army position all the time, followed by my level of respect for him in the conversations we have after the games, makes me sick to my stomach. If you were in our shoes, your values may be different, but I cannot speak for you. I only hope that you consider the situation from the perspective of people who are more hurt than you by people (respected members of the community especially) hacking behind your back.

Thanks for your enlightenment on your feelings and other top players ones. That's true that what seems "light crime" for me might not be light at all for guys that have put far more of them into it. I will take that more into account in the future.

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

That said, I think the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties. My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task - like running bsg tournaments or coaching?

Administration team has indeed emitted the punishment and it is wise considering the harm done by cheating and expressed here by valuable members of the community.

Originally Posted by Strafe

Definitely not. You receive coaching in order to become better in a legit way. You want to become better because you love the competition and constantly want to prove yourself and measure yourself against others. The ultimate goal is to lay the smack down upon everyone and earn the mad respect you deserve.

What Evets basically did was say screw all that competition. I'm just going to cheat and pretend I can beat everyone so I get respect from online players even though it's not justified. He basically did everything against the spirit of competition and fair play. It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete. By allowing him to coach others you attach a certain kind of credibility to his persona that he just does not deserve at this point. Being a coach, especially at GM level, is a display of a certain status. By making him a coach you will simply convey the wrong message to the community at this point.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it. Coaching others just doesn't fit in there at all. He should rehabilitate himself by simply being useful in the community. You shouldn't force him to. Where is the sincerity in that? Over time he himself can prove that he deserves another chance. His punishment for the while being though will be a complete ban from all competition until further notice.

I do respect Nirvana's & co's opinions. They clearly try to resolve this the fairest and best way possible for everyone while listening to everyones comments on the matter and in the end it is their decision+ site. However, I do feel they are way too lenient in this case and basically a bit too soft. But like Light explained this might be, because I actually grind 1000's of games without maphack so everyone taking a short cut is a huge dick in my eyes. I simply can't be bothered too much in this case, because even with maphack Evets won't be able to win anything ever, so he isn't ruining too much.

Another passionate testimony to take into account.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it.

I think that's what everybody agree on and I think that's what the now heavier punishment shows.

It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete.

Any community work will help people to compete, not just coaching.

He is not forced. He can choose to just "pay his time" without doing anything. He will then carry the burden of a ex-cheater without having done anything to "repair". Or he can choose to redeem himself by being useful, teaching his knowledge to other. He will of course gain some respect for that and I suppose that's what might upset you the most. I can perfectly understand it. But it's still good for the community, as it gives a second chance. Remember that each one of us could fall and need a chance to redeem.

Originally Posted by Rage

A better approach would simply to say "To regain the respect/a place in our community, you need to work to benefit it in some" and let them decide how best to do that themselves. That, to me, would better demonstrate their sincerity than effectively giving them nothing more than a checklist for how to get back into the community.

He still can do something else. But it has to be at least as important than the things listed. I think coaching is one of the best. Most useful, might be one of the most time consuming. Should be streamed. And if people troll the chat, well, that's the burden to carry. As he will carry the burden of unfriendly opponents on ladder.

Originally Posted by FaDeEvetS

Hopefully this will be the last time i have to say, i'm fully intending on working on this but would rather work on real issues first.

And that's what you should do indeed. But when do you think you will be able to explain the whole thing since the beginning ? I don't know how bad are those real life stuff, but describing all from the start will not take that much time, just the crude and nude truth.

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

My only concern lies now in exactly what community service he can do for a online community where his credibility won't come into direct conflict with his ability to perform the task

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Community work will be defined for now as:
Strategy articles (GM and above)
Free Coaching for the community (Masters and above)
Replay Analysis in our Replay Feedback thread
Contributive / helpful posts on SC2SEA

3 out of 4 in the definition would be fairly credible it seems.

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.

As Light said, "the administration team did listen to our cries/whinges of a heavier punishment and have compromised somewhat to an agreeable verdict for all parties.", so I hope that everyone will accept this and give him a benefit of a doubt for now - if you're going to continue to weigh on him being a lying cheating bas**** it's not going to help matters at all.

And I completely agree with what Light said about the situation having different impact on different people - I'm not asking you to forgive him immediately or respect him or start thinking well of him - I'm just saying, stop lynching, and give him a chance to prove himself (via community service, etc)

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Strafe:	Definitely not kidding. See post below

[Strafe]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.

Definitely not. You receive coaching in order to become better in a legit way. You want to become better because you love the competition and constantly want to prove yourself and measure yourself against others. The ultimate goal is to lay the smack down upon everyone and earn the mad respect you deserve.

What Evets basically did was say screw all that competition. I'm just going to cheat and pretend I can beat everyone so I get respect from online players even though it's not justified. He basically did everything against the spirit of competition and fair play. It's just wrong on a moral level to have such a player help others compete. By allowing him to coach others you attach a certain kind of credibility to his persona that he just does not deserve at this point. Being a coach, especially at GM level, is a display of a certain status. By making him a coach you will simply convey the wrong message to the community at this point.

It should be made absolutely clear to everyone that what Evets did was wrong and that he's being punished for it. Coaching others just doesn't fit in there at all. He should rehabilitate himself by simply being useful in the community. You shouldn't force him to. Where is the sincerity in that? Over time he himself can prove that he deserves another chance. His punishment for the while being though will be a complete ban from all competition until further notice.

I do respect Nirvana's & co's opinions. They clearly try to resolve this the fairest and best way possible for everyone while listening to everyones comments on the matter and in the end it is their decision+ site. However, I do feel they are way too lenient in this case and basically a bit too soft. But like Light explained this might be, because I actually grind 1000's of games without maphack so everyone taking a short cut is a huge dick in my eyes. I simply can't be bothered too much in this case, because even with maphack Evets won't be able to win anything ever, so he isn't ruining too much.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	my mate robert
	:	missing the point :(
	EveParachute:
	fray`Alpha:

[Rage]

For me its not even the hacking that was the biggest deal to me, but more the constant lying about it.

That is the part that I can't forgive.

By all means lets give him a chance to prove himself in the community, but I, personally, will never believe a damn word he says ever again about anything unless I know it to be true for myself.

[crAzerk]

You are not understanding my post.

'I'll assume Strafe was just kidding and hope noone actually adopts this attitude or makes this 'joke' that will directly hinder the rehabilitation and reformation of evetS.'

I was referring to your attitude, in your post:

Receiving coaching from a self admitted maphacker must be awesome. I bet everyone is dying to have him tell you where to look for and how to not get caught.

Where you are responding sarcastically to a (potential, if it happens) effort by him to 'redeem' himself.

Well you have made your stance clear about him coaching and I won't contest that, just that I don't agree with a 'lulz he's a hacker let's bring that up and ridicule him' attitude at things that he does (e.g. community service) to 'be useful in the community' as you say.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Where you are responding sarcastically to an effort by him to 'redeem' himself.

Actually these are all things that other people have suggested for him. He's barely made a peep since being outed... Seems to me he just spends his time playing SC2 on NA and KR..

[FaDeEvetS]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Actually these are all things that other people have suggested for him. He's barely made a peep since being outed... Seems to me he just spends his time playing SC2 on NA and KR..

except for the 2-3 times that i've stated in this thread (and more times to individuals) that I fully intend to come back and attempt to fix things, however i'm staying out of the e-drama until the IRL issues/dramas are dealt with, so as to not bring that here more and make things worse. The admins have on multiple occasions said 'this is the punishment, stop talking about it until further things occur' - hate me all you want but if this wis what the sc2sea admins state..

Hopefully this will be the last time i have to say, i'm fully intending on working on this but would rather work on real issues first.

Quick Comments

	Rage:	It's not a real issue?
	TCPKiaSu:	countering rage -1

[ROOTPetraeus]

Wow! Only just read about the commencing bans. Its good to see people taking this stuff seriously

[TCPKiaSu]

@crazerk, I think what strafe is saying is that coaches are like teachers and you usually respect and trust the. personally I wouldn't be that happy if evets coached me because I have no more respect for him anymore and hmm I dunno how to put the feeling in words but I hope u understand. strafe u can correct me if I'm wrong :P

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Actually these are all things that other people have suggested for him. He's barely made a peep since being outed... Seems to me he just spends his time playing SC2 on NA and KR..

I probably didn't word what I said well enough - I didn't mean he was already starting it and putting it effort ( i hope he does!), I'm saying that IF he does, AND people still talk like that, it would be just unnecessary negativity.
Made a slight edit (the brackets) to my OP to make it clearer.

Originally Posted by TCPDeathwing

@crazerk, I think what strafe is saying is that coaches are like teachers and you usually respect and trust the. personally I wouldn't be that happy if evets coached me because I have no more respect for him anymore and hmm I dunno how to put the feeling in words but I hope u understand. strafe u can correct me if I'm wrong :P

Yup, I get that. I fully acknowledge that having him coach isn't really a good idea because he has little credibility now. I've already mentioned this above when I was going through the list of 4 Community Service activities.


To reiterate my point:
IF etevS does indeed commence his community work and works to be a useful contributor here (I'm not talking specifically about coaching), we need to stop hurling this negativity his way whether it is sarcasm, ridicule, or despise.
A simple example, if he writes a replay analysis, and if someone replies it with 'lulz what would you know you use maphack', that would be unnecessary negativity.

Quick Comments

	TCPKiaSu:
	PiG:
	FlashVeno:
	asdfSchnitzel:

[TCPKiaSu]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

To reiterate my point:
IF etevS does indeed commence his community work and works to be a useful contributor here (I'm not talking specifically about coaching), we need to stop hurling this negativity his way whether it is sarcasm, ridicule, or despise.
A simple example, if he writes a replay analysis, and if someone replies it with 'lulz what would you know you use maphack', that would be unnecessary negativity.

also just saying about this matter, people shouldn't immediately flame someone if he or she DOES do that because not everyone can forgive so fast and some people will take this more seriously from other past experiences and what they have been through with hackers.

[Rage]

Forcing hackers to do things such as coaching and writing articles does seem to be missing the point a bit.

To my mind, the end goal of getting Evets (and other future offenders) to do things like this, is not so much to obtain the things themselves, articles, coaching time, etc, but more to allow them to demonstrate their commitment to working again to be a part of the community. Forcing them to do certain things, to my mind, does not achieve that.

A better approach would simply to say "To regain the respect/a place in our community, you need to work to benefit it in some way" and let them decide how best to do that themselves. That, to me, would better demonstrate their sincerity than effectively giving them nothing more than a checklist for how to get back into the community.

[Flaunt]

people do make mistakes. i have no idea who you are but i really hope you change your ways, ,mate. gl hf (:

[ToRSpartaz]

Sigh* the direction of this issue is going EXACTLY where I thought it would. Could we please leave it as Nir's Final Post on the stance of the Sc2sea community on "Hackers".

Because this is becoming a witch hunt. Yes it can't be ignored, but us lowly members can we leave it to the higher power to deal with the problem. We can bring these issues to the awareness of the mods quietly. Publicly announcing can really have an adverse effect in some situations.

Don't bite my head off just saying. (:

Quick Comments

	sRAnti:	The most annoying thing is that it's over. Punishment has been given, but people are still raging
	faithHunter:	Forgive and forget, guys :D
	faithHunter:	Forgive and forget, guys :D
	nGenLight:	I disagree, public executions sets an example and standard for the community.
	x5.Revenant:	How did neoxza rep twice WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?

[cruxBsK]

I'm happy with the stance sc2sea has taken on caught offenders and agree with the punishments given as it provides the offender with time to reflect on the error of their ways.

good work Sc2sea

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

whatever the punishment decided for evets, meany has to be punished and even more because he denied it and we want to send the message that denying it shouldn't be rewarded.

Wait, did I miss something?

Was EvetS punished more due to being caught in a lie twice? If so, ignore this but I wasn't sure if the punishment was adjusted based off this... then seeing that comment I wanted to be sure I was 100% on the right page.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by TAEdarus

Wait, did I miss something?

Was EvetS punished more due to being caught in a lie twice? If so, ignore this but I wasn't sure if the punishment was adjusted based off this... then seeing that comment I wanted to be sure I was 100% on the right page.

He did lie twice. MeaNy NEVER admitted to hacking where as EvetS came clean is the only difference really.

[nard]

Yes. He hacked. Yes. He lied. Is anyone forgetting that he is going through a tough time right now?

As far as cheating's concerned, it has been proven. Now can we give him a break and let him get his life in order without all this e-drama please?

I consider Evets a good friend, always ready for a chat online. To see this unfold was heartbreaking. I hope y'all would give him some space and understanding for a while.

Note space and understanding does not equate to forgiveness. Now that we've all agreed he's a hacker and what-not. Lets move on.

Quick Comments

	TAEdarus:	I didn't see anyone directly attacking him, we're discussing the issue.
	x5.Revenant:	Totally missing out all the valid points brought against him.
	Rage:	He cheated,denied it, then made an insincere apology veiled within yet another lie. No respect.
	NvJazBas:	-_-

[TAEdgE]

I like both above posts but can't rep.
edit: although I don't agree with the clan keeping him, I can see why they would.