[Apth]

Admin Note: TGM Subscribers, you can also post you replays here instead for analysis by our TGM coaches! Also, for those of you uploading reps don't be lazy and upload a whole bunch, or keep uploading reps one after another. Upload just the matchup you have the most trouble with and then take some time off to practise what was suggested (2 weeks) before uploading another one. A huge thanks to Apth and Nemo who have taken up huge amounts of their time in order to help people in this thread.

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Quick Comments

	lolwut:	your awesone for doing this! :)
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[Apth]

(Apologies for doubleposting but hey, it's my thread.)

Thought I'd get some replays in here. Here's the latest one from Meganex:
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=65

I really liked that early Zealot pressure. It forced your Zerg opponent to make a whole heap of lings that would otherwise have been drones. It might have been a good idea to pull back after you saw how many lings he was making - it put him way behind economically, and there would have been no way in hell for him to get through your wall-off with just lings.

The sneaky expo worked out, but I'm personally not a fan of it. It's not too much effort to destroy those rocks if you're not comfortable expanding to your front natural.
I'm not going to make a big deal out of the single pylon powering all of your gateways, I can tell you won't make that mistake again :P

Probably the biggest thing I'd like to make a point of is the Collossi. Collossi are fantastic, but only when your opponent can't hit them. If they're behind your wall-off, or behind a bunch of Gateway units, your opponent dies in a big ball of burning laser. If your opponent can hit your Collossi, your Collossi will last all of six seconds. Don't push with Collossi unless you have something to back it up with.

[Meganex]

Thanks, but what I worry most is the number of expansions he would make if I just let him be, and in no time at all a huge swarm of ultras will come knocking.. I just want to win in a game which doesnt involve 4gate-ing. Its probably because Im just 2 months-in and hes been playing a month later, or the fact that I cannot realise my mistakes and stuff.. The constant losing spree is really bugging me though

[Apth]

Zerg players can't make drones and units at the same time (not really, anyway). If you put pressure on him, this forces him to make units, rather than drones. If you see him expanding, push - it doesn't have to be an I'm-going-to-kill-you push, just force him to stop droning.

[DFM]

Replay: Protoss vs Zerg trouble *updated* 7/11/2010
Link: http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=65

So first I went through the replay at 8x speed and only watched the mini map and basically you lost cause you literally didn't do anything until the zerg was building 5 ultralisks. You let him macro and get his 3rd base up unhindered, which is obviously a big no no.

In general, if Protoss lets Zerg get their 3rd base up without much pressure or economic damage Protoss loses 90% of the time. Think of the PvZ match-up as Protoss preventing Zerg from getting a 3rd expansion up.

Lets look at your plan for that game.
You went for a super fast templar archives and built a robo almost at the same time and proceeded to expand around the time storm tech was half way done. Your unit composition was mostly gateway units supported by a few immortals.
If we look at what zerg was doing during all this, we see he went for a 14 hatch and droned up a ton. He took his 3rd base around the time you started researching storm. And your army was tiny, even if you pushed out, zerg could have probably spawned lings in time and would have gotten the expo up regardless.
This super fast templar archives off of 1 base opening is just way too passive. Even if you wanted to, you wouldn't be able to do anything as your stalker and sentry count would be way to low to fight roaches effectively, and I suspect that even if you pushed out with pure zealots and zerg only had lings, he would still be able to build enough lings to to defend.
Rushing for storm just cuts into your unit production too heavily and just takes way too long to finish. Storm itself takes 110 seconds to finish and the templar archives around 50 seconds, that's almost 3 minutes. It also takes a TON of gas to be viable on 1 base.
Archives is 200 gas, plus 200 gas for storm itself, then maybe 300 for a pair of templar. That's 700 gas, could have been 7 sentries or 14 stalkers or a combination of both.

I could go on about how you could have microed the last battle a bit better, but even if you had survived the first wave of lings and infestors without losing anything, you would have lost to the next wave of 60 lings and 5 ultras regardless.
IMO this game was lost because your plan was flawed and you let zerg outmacro you without any pressure.
I'm not saying you should 4-gate every game and not experiment at all, but you should try something more standard first until you get comfortable with it. Knowing one strategy in depth with all it's strengths and weaknesses and being able to execute it perfectly, is much MUCH better then knowing a wide variety of strategies but not being able to do them well.

I think other than that you need to scout a bit better. With your observer you saw double evo chamber, hive, infestors and then an ultralisk cavern and 2 bases. That should have told you immediately to scout for additional expansion, as that's all late game tech/units and is hard to support off of only 2 bases.

I'm guessing all that sounds kinda harsh and disheartening, but keep at it. I haven't watched your other replays, but have you posted a replay of something more standard, like 3-gate robo, or 2 base collossus timing push? Why not just pick a build that's quite common, post a game of you using it (preferably a game where you lose, not much point in analyzing a game you won) and some of us will tell you what you could have done better and you just keep working on it until you're comfortable with it, then move on to the next strategy.
Also next time it would be good to post your own thoughts on the replay as well.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

Replay: Protoss vs Zerg trouble *updated* 7/11/2010
Link: http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=65

IMO this game was lost because your plan was flawed and you let zerg outmacro you without any pressure.

I think DFM has hit the nail on the head here.
If you're going to rush for tech, I'd recommend harassing your opponent while you do it - Void Rays, Phoenixes, Immortal Drops, whatever. Anything to stop him making Eighty Three Drones (holy crap).

If you're not putting pressure on your opponent, he'll do one of two things - put pressure on you, or expand like a demon. Neither of these things is good. You want your opponent cowering in a corner, afraid to spend money on harvesters in case he doesn't have enough units to defend your next push.

Mind games man, mind games.

[Melchsee]

Liked some inputs on my current game play and any things i can improve on. I'm a silver league noob btw.

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=82

Its v

My opponent is in gold league so i was feeling quite pressured as always.
A summary of it was i went for a 1gate 1forge FE as my initial thought was hoping he would rush me with a double gate or 4 gate proxy. But when i scouted first round it was all clear i think i won this game out of luck that he did a 4 robo? i had a rough idea what he was going to build when i saw a mass of cannons at his natural. thats when i started warping in more gateways and pumping immortals out. Didnt expect the voidray cheese and i lost a few stalkers but thankfully it didnt do much damage to my economy.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by Melchsee

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=82

You won that game pretty convincingly. There wasn't any point in the game I could see where you were on the back foot, or pinned in your base. Your opponent spent too much money on unit producing structures and you punished him for it.

IMO, it's always better to post replays of you losing if you want constructive feedback - the theory being that if you eliminate all the problems making you lose, you won't lose anymore.

If you can, find a replay of you losing. It's hard to criticise your actions if your actions ultimately win you the game.

[Torniquet]

Approved. Say something in chat when you upload a replay, so we know to check sooner.

[Melchsee]

i actually have a few more against diamond players but i think the replays got overwritten by my other games =/ its bad when i forget stuff.

[Brultze]

K i have a replay i would like you guys to help me with.http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=83. Its a PvZ i 4gated at first but failed and the zerg FE in the beginning. I'll be gone for a week so i look forward to the stuff you guys post when i get back

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Brultze

K i have a replay i would like you guys to help me with.http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=83. Its a PvZ i 4gated at first but failed and the zerg FE in the beginning. I'll be gone for a week so i look forward to the stuff you guys post when i get back

1: Your opening build isn't clean. You 12gated but had 200+ minerals when it actually went down, etc - refining that means a faster core which means a faster attack.

2: If the Z goes 15hatch, try to delay their hatch more. Harass with the probe, pylon it - anything to buy additional time and reduce Z's advantage. Alternatively you could learn reactive cannon rush builds vs 15hatch.

3: Chrono warpgate tech, not probes - your 4gate push came a lot later than it could have. Also, your gateways were a little delayed, I feel.

4: Unit composition. You pushed with 8zeals 4stalkers or so, when a better mix including sentries and more stalkers could have done a lot more damage - the zeals were simply kited. Having a few sentries to seal his ramp and keep the roaches from running around could have won the game right there. You also left 3 units in your main before the push.

5: Follow-up. Imo, get a forge. You're going to need cannons if you're sitting on pure gateway units against mass roaches, especially on blistering sands. Wall your natural in with some cannons and focus on holding the backdoor, because that's where he ended up killing you. The transition to robos was good, but you just couldn't hold until then.

[Melchsee]

here's another reply of my recent game.

http://starcraft2reps.com/download.php?id=2312
Protoss v Protoss

http://starcraft2reps.com/download.php?id=2313
Protoss v Terran

first game - i hate collossus. period. thats why i never use them. and i stuck my own sentry god knows why =/

second game - totally screwed up as i went for the same build again. somehow i just cant get the scouting times right.. i manage to see him do a cheese drop in my base in time as my observer went past.

[DFM]

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=84

How do you play against something like this? x.x

[Melchsee]

cant seem to download your file DFM. gotta wait for Torniquet to approve of it first.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=84

By going 2base vs 2base, the Zerg put himself in a position where he had to keep making units - he had to keep putting pressure on, otherwise your production would have outstripped him.

IMO, another expansion from you would have put you ahead. It would have forced him to either go all in, or expand himself, and start making drones instead of units. I know you probably didn't expand because he was putting so much pressure on, but the only other solution I can think of is to harass his mineral line with drops or something to take the pressure off your front.

[DFM]

Originally Posted by Apth

By going 2base vs 2base, the Zerg put himself in a position where he had to keep making units - he had to keep putting pressure on, otherwise your production would have outstripped him.

IMO, another expansion from you would have put you ahead. It would have forced him to either go all in, or expand himself, and start making drones instead of units. I know you probably didn't expand because he was putting so much pressure on, but the only other solution I can think of is to harass his mineral line with drops or something to take the pressure off your front.

Ok, a kinda different question, but watching the replay I realized he always had a bigger army then me and it was quite a bit bigger for the most part, and I had more probes then him for most of the game.
You being a zerg player, think he could have killed me much, much earlier?

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

Ok, a kinda different question, but watching the replay I realized he always had a bigger army then me and it was quite a bit bigger for the most part, and I had more probes then him for most of the game.
You being a zerg player, think he could have killed me much, much earlier?

Definitely. At the 15 minute mark, he had 40 Roaches to your 16 Stalkers and a 6 Zealots. He had real trouble committing to his pushes, which is strange considering his build was insanely aggressive.

[Meganex]

hi guys i have a new replay. I have 5 other games on LT which are identical but it ends up with me losing.. There are times however, where I came close to taking down my friend's (Zerg) 3rd expo, so far i try to remain positive and just keep looking for ways to improve. I hope you guys can help me (I never won a game against him in months :P)

PvZ Lost temple
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=65

[Melchsee]

Originally Posted by Meganex

hi guys i have a new replay. I have 5 other games on LT which are identical but it ends up with me losing.. There are times however, where I came close to taking down my friend's (Zerg) 3rd expo, so far i try to remain positive and just keep looking for ways to improve. I hope you guys can help me (I never won a game against him in months :P)

PvZ Lost temple
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=65

i just went through the replay at 2x speed.
A few things to point out. If you went for fast expo why cancel and i'd prefer to place the first pylon at the gap near the ramp if u got rushed at least there's lesser zerglings able to hit the pylon.

Also your should make a habit to scout your opponent its the least you can do to know what he's gonna do and attempt to slow down his fast expo.
from the start you were behind your friend in terms of economy because you lost one probe and cancelled your nexus.

you over built gateways, try going 3gate1robo to collossus/immortals or 4gate timing push. i'm not very good at it but you can look at GGnoRe replays vs nGen, its really what protoss can do vs zerg at the moment.

Also you gotta incorporate sentries into your army its the best support unit forcefield is godly if used correctly as shown by many players.