[Baldie]

Friends,

While it's fresh in all our minds if you have any feedback be it positive or constructive criticism about your experience of ACL Sydney please fire away. Just don't ask about ACL Melbourne - we will let you know anything on that as it becomes available - we are aware of your desire for one.

As many of you know it was our largest event we have ever done under the ACL brand. To put it into perspective we were running 180 devices simultaneously over 6 titles. I'll attempt to answer any questions you have and clarify things if necessary.

Thank you to all of you who made the effort to attend the event - your presence was welcomed!

[ThatGuyDoMo]

I think it was a spectacular event. People will probably mention how delayed the first day was for the bro bracket, I imagine you have probably conceptually rectified the cause of this in preparation for next ACL (unless it was simply unavoidable).

The only thing I can possibly poke a stick at is perhaps the (at least it seemed to me) lack of crowd shots on the Sunday during down time? I remember on Saturday there being a lot more crowd shots during the downtime between matches whereas on Sunday they were predominately overlays etc.

[inFeZa]

Quick short straight to the point.

Pros:
Best ACL it's ever been, the spectator experience was great, actually felt like a proper show put on for the people watching.
The stage set up was fantastic, Casters on-stage, MC to guide the show, player intros etc.
Venue.
Easy access to food/drink.
Great chill out Hearthstone Area.
Exciting games/competition

Cons: unfortunate event clash with IEM (nothing can really be done)
Poor Stage lighting.
Not enough spectators convinced to come watch the event.
Dubstep.

[Pox]

Needed more spook. Other than that it was pretty great. The main stage was a great experience as both a player and a spectator - there were no issues with shaky desks, bad soundproofing or the like. Production quality seemed really good from what I saw. Didn't run too far behind schedule (pls ban mech to fix all delays ).

My only complaint is the open bracket seeding - I'm not sure how it was done, but Blysk and Fighto got screwed over pretty hard. It's obviously a subjective issue but I think anyone who knows anything about our competitive scene would agree the brackets were very lopsided.

Quick Comments

Blysk:

><

[Maynarde]

This was the greatest ACL by a fair margin imo. Here's my personal good / bad list ft. possible fixes. Keep in mind some of the bad was just unfortunate and couldn't be avoided for the most part.

GOOD:

• Having an MC, stage, the interviews, post game analysis, and mates of starcraft trailer were good ideas to alleviate downtime and have great crowd interaction.
• Stage admin was great keeping casters in the know and keeping players organized.
• The spectator experience was the best yet, could hear the cast and see the game from anywhere in the theater which was comfortable and near a bar aw yiss.
• Good rotation of very decent player casters.
• A well admin'd tournament, would've been pretty tough so was quite impressive that all went smoothly even with some PC's not working on arrival.
• Even though there were spikes, the games were still the most lag-less games we've ever had. (on stage, not sure about OB area).
• The players could play without hearing commentators (except for that one time).
• The crowd was great and I wish the people watching could have gotten a good idea of the amount of people we actually had there.

BAD:

• Still too much downtime compared to other more major events, got better on Sunday but was very slow on Saturday and early Sunday.
  POSSIBLE FIX: More admins. The more people who can organize a pair of players while a stage game is underway = good.
• Not clashing with a major event woulda been schweeeeeeet (I'm not counting TI and DH because they were not in our timezone, IEM was though)
  POSSIBLE FIX: Keeping in touch with the major tournament organizers (mainly Carmac, no other SC2 circuit really comes to our Asian timezone) on a regular basis.
• There were 100+ people in the crowd and the stream only heard 5 even though we had a crowd mic.
  POSSIBLE FIX: More crowd mics in more places.

Much love, once again great event I had an amazing time and everyone I talked to there said the same thing great work lads.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

Booked this venue in Oct 2013. I'm pretty sure PRIOR to IEM's plans almost

[syfMightyKiwi]

Originally Posted by ToRPox

My only complaint is the open bracket seeding - I'm not sure how it was done, but Blysk and Fighto got screwed over pretty hard. It's obviously a subjective issue but I think anyone who knows anything about our competitive scene would agree the brackets were very lopsided.

This was the biggest issue in my opinion, perhaps should have looked at using the OSC points to seed the open bracket to avoid this?

Quick Comments

	syfPhoenix:	I feel like this would've been nice or something.
	Blysk:	><
	ACL VaNzR:	ACL exists for a reason. Don't compete in our tournaments, don't get a good seed. Understand for non ANZ players though

[Metalcore]

I watched ACL at home.

So here is my feedback.

Cons:
- Poor stage lighting. This really got on my nerves as the event went on. Better lighting would of made it look so much more sharp and professional imo.
- To much dubstep. There are other genres you know. Sadly sc2 isn't like other games which are super popular so you don't have to pander to the masses with boring generic dubstep [this is to the ears of someone who listens to a little bit but not much and is no expert so to me it all sounds the same, wub wub wub]. I know GSL has always blown me away with their playlists. Metal one minute, next something like K-pop. Lot of music i dislike but because i got that one metal song i really don't care what else they play. also keeps me excited to when the next metal song will come on.
- Crowd mics. From the stream end we really could't hear the auidence so even with the best tries to hype up the auidence it really didn't come across on stream which is a shame as it seems the crowd was a lot more hyped and louder than the impression i got of it on stream.

Pro's:
- Casters were as always awesome. I love that we got a regualr change up seeing players like blysk and so on jump on stream to offer their pro gamer insight to the casts. Really sharp casting all week long.
- Love the set up on stage. Interviews with players and so on and caster desk and having a MC. I do feel that acl has a long way to go in order to improve on this aspect in a lot of ways but that's a good thing, it means the next one can be even better

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

Happy for people to come up with our royalty free playlists. Really is that simple. Get involved and send it over :)

[mGGDrGooSe]

Number stream issue for me is still (and has been for years) sound equalisation. MC was way louder than anyone else, including specs who were using the same mic. My opinion is that its because he was doing the right thing and everyone else was talking too softly. If everyone projects from their diaphragm, then sound balancing becomes a lot easier and when the action kicks in and Maynarde gets excited, my speakers don't blow up because of the sudden jump in noise (because his volume doesn't change that much because he is already projecting, its his tone that would convey the excitement).

Not sure how much automatic sound balancing hardware/software costs, but I do know they exist.

[Drinksarlot]

Disappointed I couldn't go, looked like a great time.

From a stream watcher at home - there was still definitely a lot of down time. Other than being more organized as mentioned, possibly the best solution I can think of is to have a community B stream run from home that broadcasts other games - similar to what dreamhack does. The other great thing for both the tournament and the stream that dreamhack does is list the next upcoming couple of games.

It was also hard to find the bracket link - couldn't see it in the ACL thread, or on the ACL site anywhere.

Lastly, the stream numbers went up significantly when IEM wasn't on - if possible try not to schedule on same weekend as major events, but you probably already know that.

Really well done overall though.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

Hmmm good point. All bracket links put onto our new BETA website. ACL site will take 2nd fiddle from now on

[SLCN.NXZ]

Stick a camera in the player area and have that and crowd shots instead of an overlay.

Quick Comments

syfPhoenix:

^This idea is a really good one.

[Blysk]

The referee staring at me while playing doesnt help stage fright, change positions of on-stage player seating.
Improve lighting (Especially the casters area, the white light doesn't help make it look any better, they just look pale >< )
Create clear metrics for players to anticipate their seeding into the brackets (in case of no ACL points etc).
If possible to get Player cameras would be cool.
Would love to have enough bandwidth to AT LEAST listen to music while sc2 but i understand if AUSternet has its limitations.
More fillers in between downtime for stream - Eg. camera around the area(walk arounds so stream viewers know what the event is like[similar to TheInternational] ,more fun interviews for players or visitors, challenges between players like TAKETV. stuff like that would increase viewer count for sure.

But overall event was amazing.

[syfChadMann]

I agree with Maynarde 100%, he summed it up perfectly. There was some epic down time and it got addressed really well on day 2. Really liked what you guys did with game analysis and interviews. Should do more interviews and have MC hype up the crowd before the games

Originally Posted by Maynarde

Even though there were spikes, the games were still the most lag-less games we've ever had. (on stage, not sure about OB area).

ACL Brisbane was crystal clear, no lag whole event. No spikes - that net was imba.


Another thing I'll say, and this is feedback to the players I've always noticed there is heaps of ******* around at ACL. Play your games, get off the PCs and report results straight away. If you are waiting for PCs to play, get your opponent ready and hang around the admin area, as soon as someone reports result, ask admins to take their PCs and play your games! There was a bit of luck that this ACL seemed to zoom by on Day 2, but day 1 looked painfully slow. I wasn't there but I read above that there were some PC issues, so this could have been to cause. Still, I don't think everyone takes their responsibility to get their games done properly.

Admins, have players ready for stream games, don't hold up the bracket too much, but if try and get someone waiting just a bit and get them ready with their veto's etc so they just have to set up, warm up quickly and get going.

Looked like it was a really well run event and the games were great. So my feedback, keep doing what your doing - but lets all try and stream line it a bit more!!

Also, I think I prefer the single elim version of the brackets.. I'd like to see that amount of people going through the groups but a double elim bracket for champs.. idk.. I think with more spots from groups you get some really nice stories of under-dogs coming through.

Anyway, hope to make it to the next one #Melbourne2014???

Quick Comments

	SLCN.NXZ:	I think they should seed 3rd place into losers or something.
	syfPhoenix:	^What NXZ said

[x5_Bard]

Event was fantastic. I can't really say anything truly negative from my perspective.

I thought on day 1 that it was going to run extremely overtime, but to the admins credit you did an amazing job of pulling it back on schedule by the end of day 2.

If anything the lighting was very poor in LoL, which was strange since Super Smash was extremely well lit.

As for people complaining about seeding etc, that happens at events. Unless you pick and choose (which imo is worse) someone is always going to get a tough bracket. Every single ACL I have watched has had x5 team kills, I just rock up now expecting it. Same goes with the music/lag/lighting etc. That is all part of the LAN experience, you cant expect to play in the exact same conditions as at home, where everything is perfect. If you have a look at who finished where you can almost rank it purely on the amount of Aussie LAN's they have been to (Pigeon the exception of course).

I personally liked the double elim version, it means if you draw someone like KK or guz first round you still have a chance to go deep in the lower bracket. Both versions have merits, with time constraints being the obvious major factor.

x5_NXZ: I think they should seed 3rd place into losers or something.

I love that idea.

Quick Comments

	Pox:	Tough brackets are inevitable but this was by far the worst I've ever seen.
	ACL VaNzR:	Well said...

[ETL.abbadonz]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Another thing I'll say, and this is feedback to the players I've always noticed there is heaps of ******* around at ACL. Play your games, get off the PCs and report results straight away. If you are waiting for PCs to play, get your opponent ready and hang around the admin area, as soon as someone reports result, ask admins to take their PCs and play your games! There was a bit of luck that this ACL seemed to zoom by on Day 2, but day 1 looked painfully slow.

100% agree with you here, a little bit of initiative from the players coming up to the admins, reporting scores (both winner and loser so we get a confirmation on score and a sort of double checking the results) Whilest it wasnt the main culprit, having to run around looking for players, making sure that you are in game etc is very time consuming... Your 5min of faffing around added with everyone elses means we lose alot of time.

And it was no luck that we caught up on day 2, it was 150% pure hard work from the ACL guys :P

[Baldie]

I've read through all your responses so far - thanks to those who have contributed and please continue to contribute. I have picked out a few responses I want to answer.

Originally Posted by ToRPox

My only complaint is the open bracket seeding - I'm not sure how it was done, but Blysk and Fighto got screwed over pretty hard. It's obviously a subjective issue but I think anyone who knows anything about our competitive scene would agree the brackets were very lopsided.

To clarify the seeding of the open bracket it was done through ACL yearly points. Anybody with 0 ACL yearly points were seeded randomly among other 0 point earners. From there the two brackets were split effectively into an odd group and an even group aka 1st seed into group A, 2nd seed into group B, 3rd seed into group A, 4th seed into group B etc. It's just an unfortunate turn of events which meant that a lot of the big names ended up being on the same side of a bracket. I cringed when I saw the brackets but there's nothing I can do without being subjective.

Originally Posted by Metalcore

To much dubstep. There are other genres you know. I know GSL has always blown me away with their playlists.

This is purely a music rights issue. GSL pay royalties for many of their songs and song rights are not cheap. As we are representing brands we don't want to do anything illegal or potentially damaging to a sponsor's image. I do acknowledge more time could be spent into sourcing a variety of royalty free genres and I'll try rectify this moving forward.

Originally Posted by Drinksarlot

possibly the best solution I can think of is to have a community B stream run from home that broadcasts other games - similar to what dreamhack does.

I reached out to the community in the ACL Sydney thread asking if anybody wanted to community cast to contact me and I had no responses. With everything I'm doing in preparation for an event of this scale, I don't have the time to chase something like this. The community needs to take initiative. And don't wait for me to reach out to the community before you ask me anything. If you have an idea tell me, ask me to do something even demand it - I won't bite your head off. The worst I will do is tell you I can't do it and I'll try to guide you in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Blysk

The referee staring at me while playing doesnt help stage fright, change positions of on-stage player seating.

The reason the stage admin was in the position he was in was to ensure there was no cheating given the location of the stage and the projector screen. Only the person on the left of stage had any possibility of looking up at the mini map so that's why the admin was there the whole time. Usually an admin will stand to the side. So while I apologise you (and perhaps others) had this experience my hands were tied.

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Another thing I'll say, and this is feedback to the players I've always noticed there is heaps of ******* around at ACL. Play your games, get off the PCs and report results straight away. If you are waiting for PCs to play, get your opponent ready and hang around the admin area, as soon as someone reports result, ask admins to take their PCs and play your games!

This 1000000%. My admin team and I will always do what we can to reduce the amount of things players have to do but as anybody at the event would have seen we don't exactly sit on a seat all day sipping a latte and watching the stream. At the end of the day the more we all work together the faster things move and ultimately the more my tournament admin will be in control which in turn frees me up to be able to make more of an impact on things like stream downtime.

[Metalcore]

Originally Posted by Baldie

I reached out to the community in the ACL Sydney thread asking if anybody wanted to community cast to contact me and I had no responses. With everything I'm doing in preparation for an event of this scale, I don't have the time to chase something like this. The community needs to take initiative. And don't wait for me to reach out to the community before you ask me anything. If you have an idea tell me, ask me to do something even demand it - I won't bite your head off. The worst I will do is tell you I can't do it and I'll try to guide you in the right direction.

I would of been keen for this but, I had prior plans that weekend . It is def something i will keep in mind for future events though. If you ever need a b stream for lans that can be cast from home let me know sooner than later so i can commit to it b4 i commit to the student life lol.

[Baldie]

Originally Posted by Metalcore

I would of been keen for this but, I had prior plans that weekend . It is def something i will keep in mind for future events though. If you ever need a b stream for lans that can be cast from home let me know sooner than later so i can commit to it b4 i commit to the student life lol.

Thanks but even saying this isn't enough. When the next event comes I won't be able to remember who said to reach out to them or who said they would be interested. Assume I will always forget!

Quick Comments

Metalcore:

Know the feel. I'll just take responsibility and get my ass involved!

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by ToRPox

My only complaint is the open bracket seeding - I'm not sure how it was done, but Blysk and Fighto got screwed over pretty hard.

Yeah, I have zero sympathy for this. Everyone knows its done from ACL points.. so if you don't want to get screwed over in the seeding, play the online qualifiers. If you can't that's a bummer.

Baldie, any hot tips on ACL Melbourne yay/nay??

[Frustration]

Come on melbourne

[syfSoundwave]

Originally Posted by baldie

just don't ask about acl melbourne - we will let you know anything on that as it becomes available - we are aware of your desire for one.!

WOW chad just WOW m8

[ToRsupapower]

I actually like some of the songs, accessible song list pls?

[Pox]

What's the latest on ACL Adelaide?

Quick Comments

ToRSpartaz:

Spook to win ACL Adelaide!

[SLCN.Petrify]

The only issue I encountered was being uninformed that if I had an issue midgame with my opponent to stop the game immediately and ask for an admin. It does seem very logical and obvious in hindsight but when you are in the situation and focusing on the game, it didn't occur to me. Maybe just reinforcing this fact in the speech before games started would've helped for me to think about it in the moment. I'm not sure if it was said during the speech before we started or not - if it was, then i apologise.

Quick Comments

Baldie:

It wasn't mentioned in the first speech will note to make sure it's clear in the future

[SLCN.NXZ]

My god your so salty you need to chill out mate. He literally just paused the game zzzzzzz

Quick Comments

VoxMSI.Rogue:

lmao

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by x5_NXZ

My god your so salty you need to chill out mate. He literally just paused the game zzzzzzz

I'm not trying to create drama, i'm providing feedback... which is the point of this thread... you are the one who needs to chill out. It wasn't just a pause. Pretty much everyone watching the games reaction was "wtf????".

I can see why you'd be upset by a pause, the early pool is designed to catch them of guard and get damage done.. However pausing gives you time to compose yourself, think about the best response and make it happen asap.

This is why I was mad at the time. The pause was clearly at a time where he needed to think.

That said, Petrify, its not very likely that pausing the game made any difference to the outcome of the match. Cheer up.

It just tilted me, I'm completely fine now, I'm just trying to provide feedback to prevent this situation from happening again.

[syfChadMann]

I can see why you'd be upset by a pause, the early pool is designed to catch them of guard and get damage done.. However pausing gives you time to compose yourself, think about the best response and make it happen asap. Rather than perhaps making a rash decision in the heat of the moment. Moral of the story, play with out music. You can hear the game you're playing at a competitive level much clearer. quite frankly, I don't see why people play music while playing SC2. Also with Internet bandwidth being shared by other competitors, I think its very selfish and should be banned by ACL to stream music.

That said, Petrify, its not very likely that pausing the game made any difference to the outcome of the match. Cheer up.

[Snx`Azz]

Good:
- Admin were friendly and accommodating
- Nice setup
- Spare Headsets/Gear
- Tournament Seedings

Bad:
- Tournament Time Scheduling
- Lack of structured rounds
- New tournament style (completed all of bracket B first before moving to bracket A).
- Too much basic information at the beginning of the day (could be posted on a web page instead to save time).

From my understanding, there were 2 brackets (A & B). A decision was made at some point to complete all of a single bracket first before progressing onto another bracket. I am not sure if this has been done before, but it seemed like a somewhat unorganised or lack of thought decision as people had to hang around for a long time in case it was their turn to play after a few hours.

If thought had gone into it, then it would be logical to begin this type of tournament structure with bracket A. In addition, this meant many players did not know what times their games would complete, and meant that some players were not available at the correct time which contributed to time waste and in some cases walkovers. This also made it more difficult for admins to manage.

Suggestion is to prepare a more thorough planned time schedule for each round so that players are aware when they should be expected to be available. If time does go over the planned schedule, then at least you still have people turning up on time for their matches. If implemented, Admins may not have to micromanage and multi-task finding and matching players.

Overall the event worked out due to the hard work of the starcraft admin/volunteer team and it looked good overall from a spectator point of view.

[ETL.abbadonz]

one suggestion moving forward, the more of you who pay before the tournament, the easier it is for us to have the brackets ready for you as soon as you walk in.
Each time a player paid and registered, we had to add them to the list in points order to make it as fair as possible for seeding. as you noticed, we had to redo the two brackets a few times due to late signups etc.

if you prepay its also one less thing you have to worry about organizing on the day

[FLuX]

Open bracket seeding was ******* shambolic. I don't think you can simply brush it aside and say it's the player's fault for not having enough ACL points. Seems to me like you're passing the blame onto a system, when that system (to me, at least) looks to be pretty poor. There's not enough chance to gain ACL points except for qualifiers for ACL events themselves; some people don't or can't play these online rounds for a myriad of reasons. To have one bracket completely stacked and the other one basically free seed for anyone half competent is absurd and needs to be addressed for future events so something like this doesn't happen again.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	But there was 6 online rounds and a LAN this year to get points in...
	x5_dot:	^^
	ACL VaNzR:	^^^^^^^^

[ETL.abbadonz]

I'm not speaking for or against the system at this point, just pointing out how we could streamline the current process.

If you had control of how seeding was done, how would you go about doing it?

Constructive criticism is great, but suggestions and ideas are better!

[FLuX]

Originally Posted by *Maynarde

*
But there was 6 online rounds and a LAN this year to get points in...

Sure, but the kinds of players who are competing at ACL for a shot at getting into the group stages don't play tournaments for "points". I'm pretty surprised to see this system being defended when two really strong players were knocked out in the open bracket, when they could potentially have topped a couple of the groups in pool stages.

Originally Posted by ETL.abbadonz

I'm not speaking for or against the system at this point, just pointing out how we could streamline the current process.

If you had control of how seeding was done, how would you go about doing it?

Constructive criticism is great, but suggestions and ideas are better!

I'm no expert on tournament seeding, but when there's a huge bracket **** up like we had this ACL, you should re-generate the brackets. Pretty stupid when you have players like Blysk coming in from Singapore to play and then having to deal with some of the worst bracket luck. Some people (Baldie included) would probably argue that this is subjective, but it's honestly common sense. Why would any tournament throw its big name dedicated players under the bus for a couple of (no offense) no-names who got there simply because the brackets were seeded in a stupid way?

Sorry but it's not making sense to me, maybe I'm just dumb and it's fair that some of the biggest names in SEA had to fight through one open bracket and some of them fell while a couple of mid-master players got through on the other bracket.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

Agree SEA could be incorporated more, but for ANZ players.... No sympathy really.

[Pox]

Seeding is a difficult issue: it's not like there's a quickfix and I understand why the current system is in place - at first glance it makes sense to seed ACL events based on ACL points and it's clearly unbiased. That said (and as my previous post made clear), it's not fair. there are a couple of problems with the "just play in the online rounds" argument:

* Many players do not play the online qualifiers, whether it's because they don't plan to attend the LAN that far in advance or simply that the time doesn't work for them.
* A good player having 0 ACL points doesn't just hurt them, it hurts other good players who hit them in the brackets.

I've seen OSC points recommended as a solution but I'm not sure that entirely works either - there are many good players who don't play online tournaments. Even just drawing the line at NA GM would have been a lot better than what we had, but once again not everyone ladders on that server. I can't actually think of an objective metric that would produce totally fair seeds, but I feel like this tournament was a shining example of why something more than just ACL points is probably appropriate.

Thanks to Brad, Dale, Todd and anyone else I'm forgetting for keeping everything together - you did a great job overall, and this is obviously the kind of procedural issue that needs to be fixed between events, not during them.

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

Gotta take into consideration of those who actually made an effort to play the Online Round qualifiers, though.

[FaDePressureTest]

I know this isn't very constructive but i gotta say it, I've been playing starcraft since 1998, and this was my first offline event I have ever been to, and I am kicking myself that I didn't go to one earlier. I didn't know what to expect but i had the best damn time watching all these games and meeting so many awesome people in this community. This community really does make this scene so great, and i'm definitely making the effort to go to more events in the future.

Quick Comments

Pox:

glad you came! I owe you a coffee ^^

[syfNaMeK]

Originally Posted by fray`FLuX

I'm no expert on tournament seeding, but when there's a huge bracket **** up like we had this ACL, you should re-generate the brackets

So you are saying they should rig the brackets so all the good players make it? That actually sounds dumb to me, as Maynarde said they had 6 online rounds to play in to qualify, if they couldn't make it for various reasons that is no fault to ACL at all.

Its just like saying oh Barcelona are one of the best teams in Spain so they don't have to play any games at all during the year to earn the points needed to win the La Liga, they only have to play the real important games and that's it.

Yes it sucks for the good players but it is what it is RNG good unit nothing you can do about that

Quick Comments

	FLuX:	lol ok
	ThatGuyDoMo:	I actually tend to agree with NaMek, good point.

[Pox]

Originally Posted by ETL.NaMeK

So you are saying they should rig the brackets so all the good players make it?

Yes. This is known as "seeding".

[syfSoundwave]

Originally Posted by ToRPox

Yes. This is known as "seeding".

But if there's a player who is essentially a blank slate in terms of whatever seeding system you're using but still very good you can't just mega micro manage everything or else bias will start creeping into the brackets.


I agree with your idea from earlier that maybe just have a list of NA GMs+ with no points and seed them above the others who don't have any ACL points.

[Pox]

Originally Posted by ETL.Soundwave

But if there's a player who is essentially a blank slate in terms of whatever seeding system you're using but still very good you can't just mega micro manage everything or else bias will start creeping into the brackets.

Yeah, this is why some thought needs to go in to a fairer seeding system - I'm not specifically advocating an ad-hoc approach (though it has worked pretty well for local LANs in the past).

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by ToRPox

Yeah, this is why some thought needs to go in to a fairer seeding system - I'm not specifically advocating an ad-hoc approach (though it has worked pretty well for local LANs in the past).

I wouldn't say it isn't a fair seeding system. Opportunities to get better seeds were provided throughout the year(four online rounds were set up AND they rewarded those who did well in ACL Brisbane). Many players gave up a few weekend plans just to try and earn more ACL points, it isn't cool for the others if someone puts no effort into trying and actually gets a good seed.

However, I do agree that Open Bracket B was too stupidly stacked as compared to Open Bracket A, the RNG Gods were too stronk on this.

Edit:

As for feedback, I loved how the tournament was set up. Was extremely cool SC2 had a stage all to ourselves. The only issue I had was being told to register at 12pm, but only able to play at 7pm(Despite it being written that Group A would start at 1pm, Group C at 4pm, etc etc) Some players even wasted a whole day waiting(https://twitter.com/fray_Wally/statu...79052948398080). That's just harsh . To improve on the situation, it would be nice to strategically calculate out how long the open brackets would run, and then only ask the Group stage players to report say 30minutes(in case Open Brackets end early) before their group stage starts.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

This would be possible if we forced pre-payment, but NOT if we continue to allow walkups and non prepayment.

[mGGSouth]

I had lots of fun, thanks to ACl for the amazing event.

I feel like the problem with the open bracket partly emerged because of this whole notion of "yearly points". It seems ridiculous that online rounds played back before Brisbane should be given equal weight to qualifying for Sydney as the Sydney online rounds themselves. In fact, the weighting for yearly points was so skewed towards season 1, that even if Tajea himself had come and played in online rounds three and four he still would have barely scraped into groups with a measly 600 points.

So my feedback is this: online rounds should only give points for a single ACL. (If this had been implemented for Sydney, MK, Frustration and Iaguz would have all gotten groups, and players like me and Runamok wouldn't have had better seeding than players like Blysk and Pidgeon.

My other piece of feedback is to really try to maximize interactions between the different games at ACL. I thought it was awesome the way the FIFA finals really drew a crowd, because it was right at the centre of the event. But with the Starcraft, LoL and Smash all being off in separate rooms I felt there was a bit of a disconnect. I for one would have loved to watch some LoL and Smash if it was made really clear to everybody at the event that a big game was happening.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

All good points tbh. Seeding and location in the event were all challenging factors. Dually noted.

[TtSYF.tRoy]

FluX, i see what you mean with both Fighto and Blysk getting knocked out early but;
4 players from open bracket placed top 2 in pro pools.
Pigeon, Frustration, RivaL and iaguz.
Two of these players came from Bracket A and two from Bracket B.
Pigeon and Frustration, from arguably the 'easier' bracket placed 3rd and 5/6th respectively. Obviously they were capable of taking the pro bracket placings they won considering they beat a bunch of 'pros'

[Pox]

Originally Posted by mGGSouth

So my feedback is this: online rounds should only give points for a single ACL. (If this had been implemented for Sydney, MK, Frustration and Iaguz would have all gotten groups, and players like me and Runamok wouldn't have had better seeding than players like Blysk and Pidgeon.

My other piece of feedback is to really try to maximize interactions between the different games at ACL. I thought it was awesome the way the FIFA finals really drew a crowd, because it was right at the centre of the event. But with the Starcraft, LoL and Smash all being off in separate rooms I felt there was a bit of a disconnect. I for one would have loved to watch some LoL and Smash if it was made really clear to everybody at the event that a big game was happening.

Agreed on both points, would have been cool to watch some smash but I completely forgot it was going on.

Originally Posted by TtSYF.tRoy

FluX, i see what you mean with both Fighto and Blysk getting knocked out early but;
4 players from open bracket placed top 2 in pro pools.
Pigeon, Frustration, RivaL and iaguz.
Two of these players came from Bracket A and two from Bracket B.
Pigeon and Frustration, from arguably the 'easier' bracket placed 3rd and 5/6th respectively. Obviously they were capable of taking the pro bracket placings they won considering they beat a bunch of 'pros'

Look at the next two players from each bracket. MK and I managed ~50% winrates in groups, and only barely eliminated Blysk and Fighto - they were both knocked out 1-2 1-2 by some combination of david, iaguz and I. Runamok and South qualified dropping only two maps between them and went 0-5 in groups. Not trying to be mean here, just trying to establish that I really don't think you can seriously refute that the brackets were stacked - the argument should be about whether or not ACL points are a fair way to seed.

[Baldie]

Originally Posted by ToRPox

at first glance it makes sense to seed ACL events based on ACL points and it's clearly unbiased. That said (and as my previous post made clear), it's not fair.

Originally Posted by ToRPox

clearly unbiased.

Originally Posted by ToRPox

it's not fair.

wut


In an ideal world I would have a single double elimination bracket. However the reality of the situation is we don't have sufficient computers to effectively manage that process. The whole reason we split brackets into two is so that I can sit down an entire bracket and allocate them a computer. That and double elim brackets get exponentially larger the more people in them so in theory having two smaller brackets reduces the total series required to be played. One of the largest waste of time at LANs is people setting up. People have to plug in their peripherals, sometimes download drivers and set the settings they want. So I try to avoid computer swapping where possible and that means delaying the other bracket until computers become available. Also please nobody counter-argue ACL should just buy more computers. It's not financially feasible for us to do this and in many places the space available wouldn't allow for more computers.

In regards to how seeding was done I seriously don't understand how anybody can argue seeding an ACL event using ACL points is not fair or not unbiased. In my opinion no admin should ever alter a bracket 'because it looks stacked' or 'because some really good guy gets a bad run', especially if the premise of seeding is based off previous qualifiers. What's the point of doing the qualifiers then? "Oh see this semi decent guy played in all the qualifiers and he's in the easier bracket but this guy here who is like top 2 protoss SEA is in the harder bracket hmm despite only playing in 1 qualifier let's swap them because it wont be as stacked then and it will make it more likely for this guy to advance because he really should." Makes me sick thinking about it. I definitely can see the merit in using 2013's model of seasons instead of yearly but that's all I can take from this entire discussion on it. There will always be people who get an easier bracket than others - welcome to a tournament.

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Definitely agree about admins altering brackets. Big can of worms once you start doing it

[Frustration]

Originally Posted by Baldie

wut


In an ideal world I would have a single double elimination bracket. However the reality of the situation is we don't have sufficient computers to effectively manage that process. The whole reason we split brackets into two is so that I can sit down an entire bracket and allocate them a computer. That and double elim brackets get exponentially larger the more people in them so in theory having two smaller brackets reduces the total series required to be played. One of the largest waste of time at LANs is people setting up. People have to plug in their peripherals, sometimes download drivers and set the settings they want. So I try to avoid computer swapping where possible and that means delaying the other bracket until computers become available. Also please nobody counter-argue ACL should just buy more computers. It's not financially feasible for us to do this and in many places the space available wouldn't allow for more computers.

In regards to how seeding was done I seriously don't understand how anybody can argue seeding an ACL event using ACL points is not fair or not unbiased. In my opinion no admin should ever alter a bracket 'because it looks stacked' or 'because some really good guy gets a bad run', especially if the premise of seeding is based off previous qualifiers. What's the point of doing the qualifiers then? "Oh see this semi decent guy played in all the qualifiers and he's in the easier bracket but this guy here who is like top 2 protoss SEA is in the harder bracket hmm despite only playing in 1 qualifier let's swap them because it wont be as stacked then and it will make it more likely for this guy to advance because he really should." Makes me sick thinking about it. I definitely can see the merit in using 2013's model of seasons instead of yearly but that's all I can take from this entire discussion on it. There will always be people who get an easier bracket than others - welcome to a tournament.

i 100% agree to this but i also want to add if you are a really good player or a top 2 protoss in sea you should be able to compete on a high level and should also be able to make it to groups, all players who "should" make it to groups or open bracket should also be able to get there and by players just missing out because of seeding is most likely because they didnt play better then the other good players on the day.

If Mk or Rival or who ever else just made it through missed out would you all be complaining as much, tbh i dont think so, so maybe we all just need to chill out and just take it for what it is

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by Baldie

In regards to how seeding was done I seriously don't understand how anybody can argue seeding an ACL event using ACL points is not fair or not unbiased. In my opinion no admin should ever alter a bracket 'because it looks stacked' or 'because some really good guy gets a bad run', especially if the premise of seeding is based off previous qualifiers. What's the point of doing the qualifiers then? "Oh see this semi decent guy played in all the qualifiers and he's in the easier bracket but this guy here who is like top 2 protoss SEA is in the harder bracket hmm despite only playing in 1 qualifier let's swap them because it wont be as stacked then and it will make it more likely for this guy to advance because he really should." Makes me sick thinking about it. I definitely can see the merit in using 2013's model of seasons instead of yearly but that's all I can take from this entire discussion on it. There will always be people who get an easier bracket than others - welcome to a tournament.

The current system is fair for seeding as its a privilege to be seeded and you should do the work required to be assigned a higher seed. If you have to verse tougher opponents in the open bracket who are non-seeded it is your own fault for not placing higher and making it into groups.

If you are not strong enough to progress through the bracket it is your own lacking. This system is fine because you only pay for entry of the current round. Bracket luck is always present in all games.

Originally Posted by Baldie

In an ideal world I would have a single double elimination bracket. However the reality of the situation is we don't have sufficient computers to effectively manage that process. The whole reason we split brackets into two is so that I can sit down an entire bracket and allocate them a computer. That and double elim brackets get exponentially larger the more people in them so in theory having two smaller brackets reduces the total series required to be played. One of the largest waste of time at LANs is people setting up. People have to plug in their peripherals, sometimes download drivers and set the settings they want. So I try to avoid computer swapping where possible and that means delaying the other bracket until computers become available. Also please nobody counter-argue ACL should just buy more computers. It's not financially feasible for us to do this and in many places the space available wouldn't allow for more computers.

You can pursue the bracket setup in this manner however there are some issues:
1) There should be no bias in the first bracket to play in the selection. Bracket A should always start first.
2) This should be publicized in the game format so people can understand and plan for the eventuality of this setup as ACL offers more opportunities to participate in other events.
3) Have a strict schedule for this bracket type of when it should finish and when the other begins.

Having people wait around for 1 bracket to finish and slowly all computers 1 by 1 replaced by bracket A players is incredibly messy.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Baldie

In regards to how seeding was done I seriously don't understand how anybody can argue seeding an ACL event using ACL points is not fair or not unbiased. In my opinion no admin should ever alter a bracket 'because it looks stacked' or 'because some really good guy gets a bad run', especially if the premise of seeding is based off previous qualifiers. What's the point of doing the qualifiers then? "Oh see this semi decent guy played in all the qualifiers and he's in the easier bracket but this guy here who is like top 2 protoss SEA is in the harder bracket hmm despite only playing in 1 qualifier let's swap them because it wont be as stacked then and it will make it more likely for this guy to advance because he really should." Makes me sick thinking about it. I definitely can see the merit in using 2013's model of seasons instead of yearly but that's all I can take from this entire discussion on it. There will always be people who get an easier bracket than others - welcome to a tournament.

Why would blysk have played in the qualifiers? Some of them were held long before it was known that this ACL was giving out a WCS seed or blizzard helped him with the cost of getting out here to compete for it.

The process is not entirely unfair as long as it's all known before the season starts. Changing it halfway through and then punishing players who didn't compete from the start of the year in events that at the time were completely pointless to them is indeed unfair.

Plenty of good things about this ACL though! For the first time it was actually a good experience as a spectator with the theatre and a really well run stage and interviews etc.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

OMG erasmus had something positive to say!! Thanks man :). Noted of course with the non ANZ players.

[Pox]

Originally Posted by Baldie

wut

By unbiased I mean that the current system can't be influenced to give any particular player an advantage - if you get screwed over, it's because someone didn't play enough online rounds, not because someone in the back room has it in for you. I think "impartial" is a better word.

Originally Posted by Baldie

In regards to how seeding was done I seriously don't understand how anybody can argue seeding an ACL event using ACL points is not fair or not unbiased. In my opinion no admin should ever alter a bracket 'because it looks stacked' or 'because some really good guy gets a bad run', especially if the premise of seeding is based off previous qualifiers. What's the point of doing the qualifiers then?

I guess we just have differing opinions on what the purposes of seeding is - I see it as a way to get an elimination-style tournament to have results as close as possible to what a full round-robin tournament would have - i.e. so that players with similar skill are eliminated in similar rounds. I don't think a good player should be punished for not playing in the qualifiers, and I certainly don't think a good player who did play the qualifiers should be punished at random by being matched up in the first round against a good player who didn't.

I agree that it's somewhat dodgy for an admin to alter the bracket after the fact - there should be a seeding procedure and it should be stuck to. I just think that procedure should change. The qualifiers would clearly still serve the purpose of determining who gets to start in groups.

If Mk or Rival or who ever else just made it through missed out would you all be complaining as much, tbh i dont think so, so maybe we all just need to chill out and just take it for what it is

I would be.

Quick Comments

ACL VaNzR:

I maintain, and so do my admins, that to earn a seed in an ACL tournament, you PLAY In previous ACL tournaments.

[Baldie]

Originally Posted by x5.Revenant

To improve on the situation, it would be nice to strategically calculate out how long the open brackets would run, and then only ask the Group stage players to report say 30minutes(in case Open Brackets end early) before their group stage starts.

I spent multiple hours on a spreadsheet calculating how long each stage of ACL would take, scheduling matches and the like but at the end of the day planning only goes so far. It's always hard to schedule for a tournament when there are so many variables to it (will there be any computer or network issues, how many people will show on the day, will we have a ****ing 2 hour match in the first round of open bracket etc.) I always feel guilty when people have to wait all day to play trust me but all I can do is apologise for the wait and thank them for understanding.

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Changing it halfway through and then punishing players who didn't compete from the start of the year in events that at the time were completely pointless to them is indeed unfair.

It would be unfair if we did that. But when I put the ACL Online Rounds Overview up in April I clearly stated that ACL Sydney would be seeded by Online Round 1 through 4 and ACL Brisbane. At no point outside of changing Online Round 3 to a WCS qualifier (which only impacted the tournament structure) did anything change after the first ACL online event. We also announced ACL Sydney was to be July 19th-20th in January so people were aware of these dates well in advance. While I do agree having season based points makes it easier for people to make decisions to attend a LAN event without feeling like they missed out on seeding opportunities I just want to make it abundantly clear there is no excuse for people saying they weren't informed well in advance of how the year would run and the importance of participating in all online rounds if they wanted to be seeded high for ACL Sydney.

Also to make it clear I love these kind of discussions despite sometimes coming across as defensive. I just sometimes need to give context to situations. Unfortunately I don't own a magic wand which makes things happen the way I want them to.

[x5_dot]

Wish I was there

Regarding seeding, I completely agree with Baldie. The general rule is that the more points you have the easier you make it for yourself. This is normally the case e.g. many players played in the online rounds to ensure they were seeded in groups. I think the players who don't bother to accrue points are normally the ones that skew bracket talent to one side just because they have to be slotted in with no set seed.

[syfChadMann]

Perhaps ACL could award seeding for open bracket based on ACL points and some consideration to OCS points? No one competitive has an excuse to not OCS points, you can earn them multiple times a day. At the end of the day, seeding is about getting a skill spread across the tournament. Of course you want accuracy and transparency? Perhaps run a few ACL Points Only ODC's or something? Add ACL points to Masters Cup results or something?.. All it does is make the seeding more accurate. Doesn't matter if its a different league, getting a better result is key.

Anyone that suggests using 'common sense' in seeding is asking for trouble, it NEEDS to be attributed to a points system.

[Pox]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Anyone that suggests using 'common sense' in seeding is asking for trouble, it NEEDS to be attributed to a points system.

Yeah, I agree 100% - the league needs a well-documented, impartial system for seeding to be taken seriously. It's definitely worth pointing out that this particular incident was a huge coincidence: if you look at the points, almost everyone had at least a modest amount of ACL points - it just happened that the rankings almost perfectly alternated between "common sense favourites" and frequently participating players. As someone who wants to see the best possible games I feel like the point system favours participation too much (as opposed to something like an Elo system) but I understand not everyone shares that viewpoint.

[SLCNPezz]

I actually really disagree with people saying seeding shouldn't be done based on Yearly points (south, pox).

This is an ACL event, it makes sense to reward people with a strong seed if they've attended previous events. All these strong players in OB, it's their fault for not playing qualifiers and attending earlier ACLs.

I've personally put a lot of effort into scheduling work and uni AROUND these qualifiers, so that I can get as many points as possible. If seeding wasn't done in this way, it would be a real slap in the face.

<only read page 2 so my bad most of this has been said already in page 3

[Frustration]

#pezzmyhero

[SLCN.Wally]

But a lot of people didn't know if they'd be able to make it to ACL till after the qualifiers, there is no incentive for them to play in the qualifiers if they aren't going to play in acl since there is no cash prize and acl points aren't used in any other tournaments.

Quick Comments

SLCNPezz:

That just seems like excuses, if you think that there's a possibility you play, period.

[syfChadMann]

Baldie, have you considered having something like DreamHack?.. with Multiple Group stages? Might make things run a bit faster? Seed top pro's into final groups and spread things out like that before moving onto a single or double elim bracket?

Not sure if that system runs much faster, but It should do? since you play three series rather than a full group of 5 series?? but there are more people?

Might be worth doing some research into? I like that format.

Quick Comments

FLuX:

I like your format you sexy man

[Baldie]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Baldie, have you considered having something like DreamHack?.. with Multiple Group stages? Might make things run a bit faster? Seed top pro's into final groups and spread things out like that before moving onto a single or double elim bracket?

Not sure if that system runs much faster, but It should do? since you play three series rather than a full group of 5 series?? but there are more people?

Might be worth doing some research into? I like that format.

I've toyed with the idea and other ideas but the ACL team decided ACL Sydney was too important of an event to try a new format we haven't trialed before. Perhaps in a future ACL we can look at other possibilities.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Baldie

I've toyed with the idea and other ideas but the ACL team decided ACL Sydney was too important of an event to try a new format we haven't trialed before. Perhaps in a future ACL we can look at other possibilities.

Maybe at ACL Melbourne 2014?

[ToRDjvillian]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Maybe at ACL Melbourne 2014?

Maybe at ACL Adelaide 2014?

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

KEEN

[Asrathiel]

Agree 100% about admins not dicking around with brackets because it looks lopsided... as soon as any person uses *their* judgement about who deserves to be where it just opens a huge can of worms. The seeding system was known beforehand, either you make the effort to participate and maximize your chances, or you don't.

Anyways! We dropped in for a few hours on the Saturday, thought the setup looked great, the big screen area was awesome, just the stage lighting issue between games took away from it a little.

Watching the stream on Sat evening and Sunday the lighting issue was more obvious, and as previously mentioned, sound balancing issues, downtime, lack of crowd mic, too much overlay and not enough crowd cam detracted from it somewhat.

Great to see the few people we got to say hi to

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Great to see you n goose too! gl with the bubs etc :)
	iM tgun:	Was good to see you two and the kids :)

[x5.RunaMoK]

overall i think the event went well and i was very happy to be apart of it


my only feedback and ive been gunning for this luxury is BOOOOOTHS D:

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	+1 for BOOOOOOOTHS!!!
	syfPhoenix:	BOOOOOOOOFS

[rezyn8]

In terms of the open bracket seeding, this is an ACL event. Previous ACL events were advertised that participation would earn points for seeding into groups and open bracket of ACL Finals events. There is no mystery here.

ACL is a tournament in its own right. It is not part of the OSC or any other tournament. If you want to give yourself the best possible seed you have to participate in that tournaments events. As such, correct me if I am wrong, there were six online qualifiers and a LAN that all earned points for the yearly Finals.

As is, OSC doesn't take into consideration ACL standings. It would be like the AFL looking at the VFL/SANFL/WAFL/etc league standings of the feeder clubs to seed the premier clubs in the finals.

While it was unfortunate to see the handsome Blysk get knocked out in the OB, he knew what he was in for when he entered. As did iaguz and the other 'top' players. Tournaments are supposed to have upsets, it would be pretty damn boring if the same 'expected' people played the Ro8 over and over again at every tournament.

I'll compose my feedback as an attendee of the event a little later.

[Chiddiru]

Wait can i ask a question then?

How were each of the brackets decided for OB?

As a few people have said A-B in terms of skill level was crazy skewed, surely you could have split up like MK and blysk iaguz etc?

Also some of the more notable players were seeded in OB, not sure why you'd seed in an OPEN bracket tbh

I enjoyed the tournament overall, had a good experience, you could see the exhaustion in baldies face especially day 2, poor guy, great job overall to the ACL Crew

Quick Comments

Pox:

Odd seeds in one bracket, even seeds in the other. The stacking was a nasty coincidence.

[TtSYF.tRoy]

Originally Posted by Chiddiru

Wait can i ask a question then?

How were each of the brackets decided for OB?

As a few people have said A-B in terms of skill level was crazy skewed, surely you could have split up like MK and blysk iaguz etc?

Also some of the more notable players were seeded in OB, not sure why you'd seed in an OPEN bracket tbh

I enjoyed the tournament overall, had a good experience, you could see the exhaustion in baldies face especially day 2, poor guy, great job overall to the ACL Crew

Wait can i ask a question then?

How does one separate players without seeding?

+1 for Chadmanns idea of running a more dream hack like format with group stages and smaller groups, could even set up one or two community streams to cover some more of the open bracket (Need volunteers)

[SLCN.Wally]

Originally Posted by Chiddiru

As a few people have said A-B in terms of skill level was crazy skewed, surely you could have split up like MK and blysk iaguz etc?

Also some of the more notable players were seeded in OB, not sure why you'd seed in an OPEN bracket tbh

these 2 things contradict eachother.

I don't think admin intervention is the answer to fixing this, tbh it's not even a problem this was just the absolutely worst scenerio the odds of this happening again would be extremely low I'd think.

[x5_Bard]

I don't think there is a problem with the current system in place. This is the first time in 3+ years the system has been brought up due to circumstances that probably will not present themselves again. The same problem could present in groups, where by some means it ends up being stupidly stacked.

I do not want a system where Baldie has to manually pick groups. This is an ACL event, the current method is both logical and fair. Good players miss out in tournaments all the time. If you don't want to get knocked out in open bracket, play the online quals and make groups. I made damn sure that Revz knew he had to qualify for groups, because I know how rough open bracket can be.

Now that I have had a chance to think back, this tournament was a huge success for both ACL and our SC2 scene. There were new faces, new stories and new rivalries. I only wish I wasn't so utterly sleep deprived and useless so that I could have actually enjoyed myself and said hi to more people.

[syfChadMann]

I have a suggestion for the rando seeding issue... Perhaps only seed the top (8 or 16) players entered into the Open Bracket, the rest > random...

This does away with Mr gold league that got a few walk overs to earn himself 10 ACL Points getting a higher seed than Blysk that didn't think he was going to any ACL events this year so he didn't earn any points. Just seed those that really earned a decent amount of points and rando everyone else..

Of course you still have RNG gods that can still skew the brackets.. but it might help..?

[ETL.abbadonz]

Originally Posted by Chiddiru

Wait can i ask a question then?

How were each of the brackets decided for OB?

heres how we did our magic (or lack there of according to some)
Spreadsheet 1 - All ACL registered players and their ACL points in order of highest to lowest, earned from relevant ACL events
Spreadsheet 2 - All players registered and paid to attend ACL Sydney

Take players from Spreadsheet 2- arrange them according to points Highest to lowest as shows on sheet 1, obviously Zero ACL points got stacked @ the bottom and randomized

Player 1 - goes to backet A
Player 2 - Goes to bracker B
Player 3 - Bracket A
And so on

Admins don't pick and choose who goes where, the only thing we choose on the day is who goes on stage

[inFeZa]

**** the seeds, practice starcraft get good and beat your ******* opponent no matter who it is. don't cry because he's hard and its early on. too bad.

speaking of tournament structure, after groups should have been bo5 single elim bracket.

[Pox]

After reconsidering the exact seeding process I don't think there's a major issue - it's very unlikely that this will happen again. I stand by personally preferring Elo-like ratings over participation points but it's fair that ACL events are seeded by ACL points.

Originally Posted by inFeZa

**** the seeds, practice starcraft get good and beat your ******* opponent no matter who it is. don't cry because he's hard and its early on. too bad.

I really don't understand this attitude... if it's that easy why not just practice and get good and win GSL. When the prize pool runs as deep as it did at Sydney I think it's quite reasonable to expect to be able to make it deep despite not being the overall favourite.

Originally Posted by inFeZa

speaking of tournament structure, after groups should have been bo5 single elim bracket.

This could definitely create a more exciting finals - double elim is usually kinda anticlimactic from a spectator's standpoint. The potential downside is that when there are two clear favourites (as in the two LAN events so far this year) they can end up hitting before the grand finals. Seeding the champ bracket based on group points should be able to mitigate this: I'm curious what the process for this was at Brisbane, since the top 2 scorers from groups ended up being on the same side.

[x5.RunaMoK]

I agree here with infeza, i lucked out in ACL sydney compared to others but i went in with not a care in the world who i was going to play. end of the day winners make it, everyone else falls short and thats competition.

[Baldie]

I decided to do double elim bo3 in the championship bracket for Sydney because of the magnitude and significance of the event both cash wise and for the remaining WCS seed. At a simple level I view double elim as more player focused and less spectator focused while single elim is the opposite. I prioritised players over spectators in this case. Had I done single elim we probably would have been talking about how Iaguz hit KingKong in Round of 8 and one was knocked out or something like that.

Originally Posted by ToRPox

I'm curious what the process for this was at Brisbane, since the top 2 scorers from groups ended up being on the same side.

The system is designed so that players from the same group (1st, 2nd and 3rd) don't hit each other until the semi finals - and the exact starting position of each person is changed each event so it can't be worked out during the event. So it isn't who does the best in groups get's 1st seed etc it's already decided before the event even starts.

[Pox]

Fair enough - it's possible to seed to some extent while retaining the property that players from the same group miss each other, but I didn't think about the metagaming issue (people would throw games in groups if they knew e.g. KingKong dropped some maps).