[syfPhoenix]

Ok im a diamond Zerg who is having alot of trouble holding the sentry immortal all in. Ive tried going muta's and i can never get enough out in time to kill the force or i go roach/ling and get forecefielded out any advice?

Quick Comments

VoiD:

This couldn't be because I beat you in that practice game with it? ;)

[AxSGRiM]

mas sspine with muta. Dimaga's ling bane style also is pretty cool.

[mGGAequitas]

Mass spines in your main, while you base race.

[ROCCAT_Savior]

Once I'm sure the Protoss isn't going for a gateway pressure/all in, i mass lings from about the 8:30 mark, whilst piling up gas, once lair finishes, spire -> force base trade, just charge lings into their base as soon as they push out a decent amount.

edit: If they are gateway allinng I mass roach ling as per usual

[EveTigey]

60 drones, 3 base, 3 gas, roach speed, ling speed, +1 range, macro hatch, 3 queens and then pump units ling heavy. Gotta be right on with your injects and try engage in an open place as possible and bring units in from 3 or 4 angles to get a surround.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	i like this way
	DarKcS:	this is the best way i know of

[FsDronesInJail]

Originally Posted by TigeyWigey

60 drones, 3 base, 3 gas, roach speed, ling speed, +1 range, macro hatch, 3 queens and then pump units ling heavy. Gotta be right on with your injects and try engage in an open place as possible and bring units in from 3 or 4 angles to get a surround.

Yeap i found that the stephano fast max helps alot against the sentry immortal all in

[syfPhoenix]

all sounds very base tradey/could put u behind on econ... T.T guess i haft to learn how to base trade xD

[ROCCAT_Savior]

Originally Posted by PhoenixA

all sounds very base tradey/could put u behind on econ... T.T guess i haft to learn how to base trade xD

"behind in econ"...it takes his first units a while to kill bases, so if your initiating a base trade straight away their going to be mining on 1 base whilst your on 2 ect. Just don't forget to have drones on the map for extra hatches/evos ect.

[iM yang]

lose then call the protoss terrible is generally how the games i see go

Quick Comments

	syfPhoenix:	seems like a legit solutions ;)
	Theend:	This Hard counter Toss
	mGGAequitas:	this is the most common response
	nirvAnA:	lol!
	VoiD:	I get this EVERY time and something else about the game being broken...

[EveMassacrisM]

Mass spines in your main, while you base race.

This is the way to go if you have already gone mutas. If you went roaches, mixing some lings in to soak damage is not a bad idea, and get Infestors when you can.

[Snx.Mufasa]

Anyone tried hydra?

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by iVnMufasa

Anyone tried hydra?

From personal experience I've found hydra is okay at defending immortal sentry all in, but not as good as muta. It's actually really good against immortal into 3rd base though, but if toss scouts hydra and stays on 2base til colossus tech I seem to be screwed from there.

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by FaDeJoshboy

From personal experience I've found hydra is okay at defending immortal sentry all in, but not as good as muta. It's actually really good against immortal into 3rd base though, but if toss scouts hydra and stays on 2base til colossus tech I seem to be screwed from there.

I assume you mean that muta is better at winning you the game via counter attacks, not actually defending the all in... though if you've got enough spines already you can hold but that really depends on the time of the attack which can vary due to skill.

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by iVnMufasa

I assume you mean that muta is better at winning you the game via counter attacks, not actually defending the all in... though if you've got enough spines already you can hold but that really depends on the time of the attack which can vary due to skill.

I guess it's map dependent. Sometimes with hydra spine I'll lose because protoss has enough forcefields to kill all the spines separately and then segment my army once or twice until they have overwhelming numbers that hydras don't cut it any more. However I find with mutas you can run in front of the spines with lings and mutas, then when ff'd you can back the mutas up, stockpiling your muta count while constantly adding more lings to buffer the spines. And yes, defending with mutas means basically an instant gg instead of a more drawn out game.

But then again I still don't have a clear definitive answer to immo/sentry all in atm, I usually bounce around between different styles.

[eCKo`Switch]

Muta/ling. Rally to his side of the map, mass spines at home to slow him down and pepper your angus for base trade.

[foxmeep]

I'm pretty sure mass spines don't do anything vs mass immortals other than waste minerals :P

[eCKo`Switch]

Originally Posted by foxmeep

I'm pretty sure mass spines don't do anything vs mass immortals other than waste minerals :P

The immortal all in isnt really MASS immortal, more like a few immortals mixed in with like 6/7 gates worth of units, upgrades and the odd guy that goes blink . It's just to slow them down anywho, not stop them from being able to base race.

[foxmeep]

Originally Posted by Switch

The immortal all in isnt really MASS immortal, more like a few immortals mixed in with like 6/7 gates worth of units, upgrades and the odd guy that goes blink . It's just to slow them down anywho, not stop them from being able to base race.

you're right... no where in this thread does it actually say mass immortal!

no sleep = confused state of mind lol

[RVLiveR]

It seems slightly easier when I do fast maxout, but it's still the best choice imo to just basetrade - 2 base zerg vs 1 base toss limits his production so much. Especially when the main is half mined out. Spines imo are just to delay, they dont actually dent toss armies in any way.

[inFeZa]

This build is designed to crush roaches.
If you have a case of the I'm a zerg who only makes roaches, You're going to die a lot.

[AvMyuu]

Posture with your units, be active with them, it all comes down to control, if your going to attack from one angle your probably gonna lose but if you waste as many forcefields and delay the attack for long as possible, go for a surround, youll most likely crush it with roach ling

[FsDronesInJail]

Originally Posted by judgementxmyuu

waste as many forcefields and delay the attack for long as possible ling

Yep, baiting and forcing your Protoss opponent to put up forcefields is absolutely key in holding off this agression. Sniping pylons go a long way as well as they have to warp in from their secondary pylon which is often halfway across the map

[DarKcS]

Derp*** Don't forget roach warren timing or you're SOL :X

[Masterfuzzy]

Mass lings and spines. Have around 50-75% of your lings on some other place on the map to flank. Once they push up to your natural, you should have enough lings and spines to defend the front while flanking from the back. Immortals and sentries are horrible against lings, so just continue to pump lings out.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Masterfuzzy

Mass lings and spines. Have around 50-75% of your lings on some other place on the map to flank. Once they push up to your natural, you should have enough lings and spines to defend the front while flanking from the back. Immortals and sentries are horrible against lings, so just continue to pump lings out.

I 100% guarantee you that lings dont beat immortal sentry, even if you get a 360 degree surround forcefields will ruin your day.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by SatuSPR

I 100% guarantee you that lings dont beat immortal sentry, even if you get a 360 degree surround forcefields will ruin your day.

Need 360 degree with BOTH roaches and lings

[Shieldz]

spines and basetrade and if a zerg says 10 spines dont do anything to a mid game toss army i think thats just stupid zerg.

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by Shieldz

spines and basetrade and if a zerg says 10 spines dont do anything to a mid game toss army i think thats just stupid zerg.

you're gonna need more than 10 spines to cover every single attack path. and if you're basetrading then having only spines to defend won't work.

[Shieldz]

u dont have to save ur third when hes 2 base all ining just cover ur whole natural and also hes only on 2 base ofc u can base trade him and just kill his econ and production then come back and defend with muta ling ofc not roaches...

[SLCN.NXZ]

Machine covered defending it in a chanman pro corner (using roach ling)its very difficult and requires great baiting of forcefields and positioning.

You Tube

You Tube

You can go hydras and you will roll the push, like if he fights he just... dies... but if hes good he'll run away (hydra pretty slow) and switch to colossus, if you go for a hydra defense your gonna have to hit a solid timing with your army (behind it you can even switch to muta ling). Then theres the muta ling way, you mass spines at ur nat while saccing your third and basetrading. This way works best if your going nestea style 10:30 mutas but vs the REALLY early push it will have issues and technically he can beat you in the basetrade if he goes for your natural before your third. Lastly you can go ling bane and intercept the push on the way out and you beat it. If he delays his push you have drop out and crush it even harder, ling bane is probably the best counter to this all in.

Good luck!

Quick Comments

PiG:

yup :)

[aLtNinja]

If they hit the 10:00-10:30 timing the only real way to hold it is roach ling with micro, flank + bait forcefields, pull back and do it again like tigey said standard 3-4 gas 60 drones at the most.

[Flaunt]

something i've picked up massing zvp is that you really want to tech a lot faster vs protoss now. you must also know that the 3immortal all-in is coming by the 8min mark. i've been playing with 0 evo and going for the fast tech with hydra. you need spines, lings and raoches to support. you want to defend it off of 63 drones - 15 per hatchery and 5 geysers.

few tips:
i've been playing 0 evo play but i've seen zergs experimenting with 9min speed and getting an early upgrade b4 the tech.
you want to tech to lair at around the 8minute mark.
you MUST never attack forward into him unless it's for baiting purpsoes. you need to micro A LOT by constantly spreading and baiting.
delaying the push is basically impossible. i've seen pros do this but recently protoss players have worked out great ways to simcity their bases and knowing how committed zergs are to the baseraces/delaying you.
stay off the the macro hatch IMO. i've been playing around with a lot and it really doesn't help at all UNLESS you're going for the bane ling drop approach.

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

I assume you mean 9 min, 8 mins is like before first immo even finishes

[FaDe'Shampoo]

yeh base trade seems most reliable vs this lol

[syfPhoenix]

ok now that i know how to hold it.. how do i identify that he is doing this build like will he take 3 or 4 gas 1 or 2 robo tell tale signs hes doing this build

[FsDronesInJail]

Originally Posted by PhoenixA

ok now that i know how to hold it.. how do i identify that he is doing this build like will he take 3 or 4 gas 1 or 2 robo tell tale signs hes doing this build

Position your overlord at their natural. If they don't take gas past 7-8 min mark expect an all-in coming. To verify it is an immortal sentry all in, fly overlord into main at around 6:30 minute mark to look for his tech path

[SLCN.NXZ]

You have to scout him going robo tech, from there you can assume either a third or this all in. Basically you keep going with your strategy if you dont see an atempt for a third by 9:30 you can safely prepare for this all in. Thats whats a bit annoying about this build is it is very difficult to identify (He does have a few more gates so if your sacrificial overlord sees that then you can prepare). Keep in mind you have to use YOUR strategy to defend, you cant go roach ling, scout this THEN go mutas as you WILL die or go ling bane then switch into roaches, again easy loss. You base your defense off your normal macro play. (Maybe only the hydras can be done reactively, off roach ling)

Good luck!

[mGGDaedalus]

I've been having success lately against this push by going 3 base muta with 1/1 upgraded lings and a baneling nest in case he reactively starts warping in a lot of zealot stalker. Just need spines at your 3rd and maybe nat and decent creep spread to slow the push/see which angle he's coming in from so you can flank. And try to use your first pack of lings to bait ff as he crosses the map and threaten counter attacks.

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

Can't go muta and bane, have to commit to one, personally prefer muta and base trade

[LGShaft]

The best thing you can do is stop somewhere around 55 drones on roach-ling, like someone above mentioned. Getting a fast lair with your first 100 gas (2 gas taken at 6 minutes on 3 base), then +1 Ranged attack (Evo+Roach Warren at 7:00), followed by roach speed asap. With this style, you should be able to engage his army pretty close to the middle of the map, before he has a lot of stalkers and zealots on the map to defend them -- it's the force fields that are the scariest part of this push!

I have a few VoDs if you need them detailing this a lot more explicitly.

[Omallie]

In the GSL code S ro16 group b matches today Symbol dealt with this attack by using overlord ventral sacs to negate the force fields. As I am not a zerg I don't know how viable this is normaly but i thought this was an elegant solution.

[VB_Rhuubarb]

Originally Posted by Omallie

In the GSL code S ro16 group b matches today Symbol dealt with this attack by using overlord ventral sacs to negate the force fields. As I am not a zerg I don't know how viable this is normaly but i thought this was an elegant solution.

It seemed that the push came later than usual which gave him time to get the upgrades, but having said that, maybe zergs can figure ways to get the upgrade in time for earlier attacks... maybe not.

[RVLiveR]

Originally Posted by Omallie

In the GSL code S ro16 group b matches today Symbol dealt with this attack by using overlord ventral sacs to negate the force fields. As I am not a zerg I don't know how viable this is normaly but i thought this was an elegant solution.

Only problem is that ovie drop is actually very expensive. If we want ovie drop done by the time a 9:00 push moves out, we need to start research at 7:00, or start lair at ~5:30, which is before stephano even starts his 2 gases.

To scout it, usually I start a 6:30 warren when I see no gas, 6:45 warren+7:00 evo when I see one gas, 7:00 warren+evo when I see 2 gas. Fits pretty well for me.

[DarKcS]

Can someone supply masters/GM Replays of beating this strat well executed (eg didnt lose because failed FFs or moving out and getting caught in open).

[TADivinity]

Ling Roach does it fine. You need to be pretty spot on with your macro (injects and supply), and its definitely tough if the protoss executes it perfectly on their end too.

Baiting ForceField is very helpful. Engage before they push you up a ramp. To do this, you need units. To have enough units by this time, you need to have macroed well.

If you can kill the forward pylon then that is super helpful as well, but far more difficult and oftentimes a factor of luck is needed

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	god stuff
	Fourby:	god stuff
	TABjornbrandr:	god stuff
	Snx.FigJig:	god stuff

[DarKcS]

Can't max nearly as early when toss blocks 2nd and 3rd. And ofcourse I flank and bait, I'm not bronze >_>

[Fairyking]

ewww all ins :P

[Myth.ZenAku]

If you scout and know absolutely nothing is coming earlier than the push and you can have relatively high drones, it's not as hard as it looks as long as you constantly bait force fields as he's moving across the map. You also set yourself you're own trap when you fight at the 3rd base most of the time because it's so easy to block off with 1/2 force fields

[InteGrand]

Once i realize hes going immortal all-in, i call him a ****** and leave the game. (no point trying to defend, just prolonging your pain.)

Quick Comments

syfPhoenix:

LOL!