[TAhackdZ]

Hey guys,

So this is my first post here. It's good to see some activity specifically for SEA.

I posted this on TL a few days back, just looking for some more advice on a decent Muta-ling build. The general consensus so far is to get the first Gas earlier and the second one later. Which I'm still experimenting with.

The game plan with this BO is to defend with Slings + Raoch/Banes (maybe a Spine Crawler) and tech to Muta's ASAP. Harass and poke at expo's/Mineral lines with the Muta's and mass Slings with excess minerals. (Hence the 3rd in base Hatch, purely for Lavae)

The idea is to run your giant ball of slings into his base when he's trying to deal with the harassing muta's.
If there's a wall in the way, bust it with banes and charge in overwhelming numbers of Slings. The overwhelming bit is probably the most important part of that sentence. Litterally all your minerals that arnt going towards upgrades/Base defense/Muta's get dumped into Slings.

Btw: It's not mentioned in the BO but there are 2 Evo chambers for upgrades in the build. Just not really sure when its neccessary to put them down.

Anywho, onto the build order;

9 OL
15 Hatch [At natural]
14 Pool
16OL

[Maybe a Spine Crawler at my natural here If I think they're rushing me]

Not usually neccessary though.

17 Queen [At main]
19 Queen [At Nat]
21 Gas [Both geysers at main]
20 Zerglings for defense
24 OL
27 OL
- @ 100 Gas
Metabolic Boost
36 Lair [at main]
38 Roach Warren/Baneling Nest

[To explain this, the Roach/Bane is situational. I find that Slings and a Spine arn't enough to hold serious pressure at this point. I tend to go Roach Vs Toss or Banes Vs Terran]

40 OL
- @ 100% Lair
Second Hatchery at main.
40 Spire

Anyway, any advice or revisions you come up with are appreciated very much

Cheers, and Merry Xmas.

PS: Only a bronzie here so pls be gentle...;p

[HDPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Ridiculisk

Hey guys,

So this is my first post here. It's good to see some activity specifically for SEA.

I posted this on TL a few days back, just looking for some more advice on a decent Muta-ling build. The general consensus so far is to get the first Gas earlier and the second one later. Which I'm still experimenting with.

The game plan with this BO is to defend with Slings + Raoch/Banes (maybe a Spine Crawler) and tech to Muta's ASAP. Harass and poke at expo's/Mineral lines with the Muta's and mass Slings with excess minerals. (Hence the 3rd in base Hatch, purely for Lavae)

The idea is to run your giant ball of slings into his base when he's trying to deal with the harassing muta's.
If there's a wall in the way, bust it with banes and charge in overwhelming numbers of Slings. The overwhelming bit is probably the most important part of that sentence. Litterally all your minerals that arnt going towards upgrades/Base defense/Muta's get dumped into Slings.

Btw: It's not mentioned in the BO but there are 2 Evo chambers for upgrades in the build. Just not really sure when its neccessary to put them down.

Anywho, onto the build order;

9 OL
15 Hatch [At natural]
14 Pool
16OL

[Maybe a Spine Crawler at my natural here If I think they're rushing me]

Not usually neccessary though.

17 Queen [At main]
19 Queen [At Nat]
21 Gas [Both geysers at main]
20 Zerglings for defense
24 OL
27 OL
- @ 100 Gas
Metabolic Boost
36 Lair [at main]
38 Roach Warren/Baneling Nest

[To explain this, the Roach/Bane is situational. I find that Slings and a Spine arn't enough to hold serious pressure at this point. I tend to go Roach Vs Toss or Banes Vs Terran]

40 OL
- @ 100% Lair
Second Hatchery at main.
40 Spire

Anyway, any advice or revisions you come up with are appreciated very much

Cheers, and Merry Xmas.

PS: Only a bronzie here so pls be gentle...;p

Hey Ridiculisk!

First off, amazing character name! Lovin' it

I can go into detail about the build but as you are bronze, there is something else you should focus on first.

Fundamentals!! Its the bane of every player, and even the top diamonds still struggle with it. Now it is very easy to caught up with build orders and micro tricks and details but that is not as important as fundamentals.

Do you inject larve constantly?
Do you spread your creep?
Do you scout with your early lings?
Do you scout with overlords?

Each are very important and I still see high level zergs struggle with it, so even if you're bronze, don't scoff at this. Its vitally important. I would challenge you to play games and the focus on the game is NOT to win, but to focus on just 1 objective, just 1 fundamental.

Play a game and your only goal is to keep your 2 base Queens below 50 energy by the 10 min mark (read you only missed 2 inject larves). Play and play till queen injections are a part of you

Then play a game with a 3rd Queen and keep that Queen below 50 energy by spawning only creep tumors. The other 2 Queens must also be below 50 energy.

IMPORTANT: It does not MATTER if you lose, focus on your fundamentals. Soon it'll become second nature and you can focus on the details.

And so on, after Queen management, focus on your scouting with lings and overlords.

I say this because Muta/Ling is very weak in the early stages and you only have lings for defense. Your lings MUST have enough larve to make and your lings MUST fight on creep to be most effective. If your Queen management isn't good, you lose many more lings than you should and most players will say, "Crap, I need more lings". No! You don't. You need more fundamentals

Details like perfecting build orders, flanking, battle placements and 'high level' stuff can wait.

Hope this helps. My 2cents =)

[dennistoo]

VR rush you will be gone.

[xceL]

Just dont skip both roach and baneling tech against terran.
You need one of those. If terran finds your spire going up really early he can shut it down pretty hard with only a couple of turrets.

I think you're best playing as a reactionary zerg, not going a certain build/composition like muta-ling just because you want to go muta ling.

[GFree]

Isn't it really risky to plan a BO to such a high supply?

[TAhackdZ]

Originally Posted by GFree

Isn't it really risky to plan a BO to such a high supply?

Probably.

I plan the BO out this far so that I can keep track of where I'm supposed to be at any given time.

I don't think it's ever gone that smoothly though. Consider it a general guideline, rather than the be all and end all of the build.

[ZanooKu]

I recommend not using this build, not just because I hate it but because if the enemy is smart enough, he can steam roll you.

[HDPhoenix]

Originally Posted by ZanooKu

I recommend not using this build, not just because I hate it but because if the enemy is smart enough, he can steam roll you.

Why? Mutaling is the standard opener vs Terran and its great vs Toss too, just can't use it against Zerg cause he'll just roach rush you if he sees the early hatch.

[ZanooKu]

Because it's so stupid having to come up against 109 Zerglings and however many Mutalisks. ~_~

[Harmonik]

Originally Posted by ZanooKu

Because it's so stupid having to come up against 109 Zerglings and however many Mutalisks. ~_~

Translation: Puh puh puh please dont hurt me! Im so scared of your zerg swarm

LOL

[TAhackdZ]

Originally Posted by Harmonik

Translation: Puh puh puh please dont hurt me! Im so scared of your zerg swarm

LOL

haha, awesome

Because it's so stupid having to come up against 109 Zerglings and however many Mutalisks. ~_~

I know it is that's kinda the point...

[ZanooKu]

You want an easy win rather than get better?

[Dogsi]

Zanooku is just upset because he was embarrassed after talking smack to a zerg on the b.net forums and then getting rolled by muta/ling.

[ZanooKu]

Upset? No just frustrated that people still use this imbalanced strategy, which can be done by complete and utter noobs and beat people much better.

[Dogsi]

Originally Posted by ZanooKu

Upset? No just frustrated that people still use this imbalanced strategy, which can be done by complete and utter noobs and beat people much better.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GE5JC642

You are right. It's so imbalanced. It's so imbalanced that despite 2 bungled assaults, losing 1/4 of my army for the cost of 3 lings, having 1/4 of his APM, ect., I rolled him. OH, and he's a zerg rated higher than me, forgot that part.

Simply because you can't handle muta/ling doesn't mean it's op.

[HDPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Dogsi

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GE5JC642

You are right. It's so imbalanced. It's so imbalanced that despite 2 bungled assaults, losing 1/4 of my army for the cost of 3 lings, having 1/4 of his APM, ect., I rolled him. OH, and he's a zerg rated higher than me, forgot that part.

Simply because you can't handle muta/ling doesn't mean it's op.

Before this degenerates into a flame war over 'skill', I just want to say mutaling is an excellent opener for zerg as it gives map control and you get your FE (fast expand). Similar builds would be the 3 gate FE from Protoss and 2 rax FE from Terran. They have their strong points. They also have glaring weaknesses

A zerg who goes mutaling spends every bit of gas, from the start of the game till the 8-9 min when the mutas pop, on mutas. Mutas can be countered. Phoenixes, Thors, Mass Marines, even a single missile turret can deter 3-5 mutas by itself.

If the zerg does NOT do economic damage with the mutas, he will find it hard to get a 3rd. Also mutaling zergs only have lings till mid game so they can't easily stop fast expansions by their opponents. A 2 base zerg who fights a 2 base protoss/terran and does not deal damage with his mutas will lose

All standard builds are strong because they are well... standard. Does not mean they don't have their weaknesses. ^_~

[Benji]

Muta/Ling works really well in lower divisions, simply because players don't understand how to counter it correctly. The issue with Muta/Ling is that it opens up a massive timing window in which you are very very vulnerable to any sort of attack. Most players I talk to simply say that when they see mutas, they attack and usually win.

In ZvT, Mutas are good, but as a support unit, it slows down the Tank/Marine push significantly and punishes any player who does not cover all his tanks with Marines.

In ZvP, Muta/Ling is pretty difficult to pull off, but I am finding delayed Mutas (ie: Going Roach and getting a spire and a few mutas to harrass) works really well, because your opponent expects Roach into Hydra play, and usually isnt well prepared. Muta/Ling is just too easily countered by Phoenix play.

In short, Mutas are good, but in most situations a strong ground army supported by mutas is significantly stronger.

Back on topic, Any build order that goes past 25 in my experience is too specific, you start losing units and you lose track of when you need to build x and y unit. Also the build will vary depending on what your opponent is doing, for example if a Terran is 2 Rax pressuring you, you'll proberbly want banelings+baneling speed before a spire, but if hes just expanding and turtling you can proberbly skip baneling speed for a faster spire.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

In ZvP, Muta/Ling is pretty difficult to pull off, but I am finding delayed Mutas (ie: Going Roach and getting a spire and a few mutas to harrass) works really well, because your opponent expects Roach into Hydra play, and usually isnt well prepared. Muta/Ling is just too easily countered by Phoenix play.

If the Protoss is not pre-empting Muta play (ie: opening stargate), he will not have enough phoenixes to actually engage the mutas. This means he has to turtle, which means you are going to have a massive economical advantage (plus, you can add corruptors).

If the Protoss has done anything but that, going heavy muta and not dying to a timing attack (5gate, a gate/robo mix, etc) means Protoss will most likely need to turtle for blink/storm, and there is a great deal of damage you can potentially do and little counter-pressure you can take.

I personally find Mutas much harder to handle than anything else, largely because Protoss anti-air is extremely underwhelming.

[Dogsi]

Originally Posted by Xeen

If the Protoss is not pre-empting Muta play (ie: opening stargate), he will not have enough phoenixes to actually engage the mutas. This means he has to turtle, which means you are going to have a massive economical advantage (plus, you can add corruptors).

If the Protoss has done anything but that, going heavy muta and not dying to a timing attack (5gate, a gate/robo mix, etc) means Protoss will most likely need to turtle for blink/storm, and there is a great deal of damage you can potentially do and little counter-pressure you can take.

I personally find Mutas much harder to handle than anything else, largely because Protoss anti-air is extremely underwhelming.

If he is using his mutas to harass, chase them away and then kill him. Seriously. Mutas are quite weak in combat.

Just my noob opinion.

[Ryukku]

i read your post and i feel... your bo should stop at the 2nd queen. basically i play reactionary passive zerg. u can skip 20 lings for defense if u see the opponent wants to go into a macro game. u might want an earlier gas too.. but its all very situational and map dependent. but the main gist of your BO is about right.

i want to enforce what HDphoenix has already said. the main things zergs need to learn is when to drone and when to produce attacking units, thats why queen management and creep spread is more impt than having a perfect build order. with proper fundamentals, any BO u do will be played out with 100% efficiency and will most probably work =p. the biggest problem with going the standard muta/ling/bling is the 7 min window. and thats when your fundamentals will be put to the test. your ability to get information on what your opponent is doing and be prepared for it. if your creep spread is horrible... your engagement will be closer to your expo and it leaves alot less room for any mistakes etc. so focus on your ABCs!!

for a player starting out, i always believe in overreacting to your opponent. knowing the proper response firstly, and then going a little bit overboard with it. u will need the extra reserve as a player starting out like you will most probably make a few mistakes here and there. when u realise, ok i can handle it with X amount of spines, then u can adjust according to your gameplay. there is no right answer in SC2(many things works against different builds), but there are many wrong answers(ie building roaches against void rays...). u just need to avoid the wrong answers and u will most probably be safe. i started out building 4 spine crawlers to hold off 4 gate rushes, but nowadays im down to 2. and i can say its because of my macro fundamentals that have improved.

so keep fighting fellow cerebrate! =D... if u need any help, just PM me or something. though im not very active =X