[Satu]

Introduction
A month or two ago, a player called Aquanda showed zergs a new style of ZvP that used zerglings and banelings instead of roaches and hydras. He mass expanded, got a huge economy up and then sent wave after wave at his opponents, until they fell apart. Recently, MorroW has used the style of ling/baneling at MLG columbus, but he did it in a slightly different way, that although less economic, seemed to have few holes in the build at all. He managed to crush many protoss opponents at MLG columbus using this same build as his standard ZvP build.

For those of you who don't know what ling/baneling in an engagement looks like, heres FXOSLoG vs mouzMorroW from MLG Columbus:

Before


Scary toss army ;(


Omg now my lings cant hit you. I guess I'll just fly my overlords over and...


Wait... Where'd you go?


After (Protoss supply dropped by 56!)

The Build Order
After reviewing his MLG ZvP replays, I managed to write up the build that MorroW used. I saw a few inconsistencies in his play, and after thinking very hard about each stage, I managed to find the optimal timing for everything tech-related.

14pool
15hatch w/ 2drones, if pylon, pull back.
15overlord
16queen
18 x2ling + gas
20/21hatch if the 15hatch was blocked
@92 gas start pulling drones
@100 gas metabolic boost
@95% metabolic boost, 3 drones on gas
@40 gas, evo chamber
@100 gas, melee attacks lv 1
@100% evo chamber, x3gas
@90 gas, evo chamber
@150 gas, carapace lv 1
@100 gas, lair
@20s lair, make bane nest.
@100% lair, overlord drops & speed, bane speed
@8-9 min mark, take 3rd and maybe macro hatch
Make infestation pit while making 5th & 6th gasses, while fully saturated at 3rd.
Pathogen glands when infestation pit completes
@31s Pathogen glands, begin infestor production

Build Strengths
- Crushes gateway unit heavy armies
- Zealots and sentries and high templar disintegrate to banelings
- Rediculously strong in midgame to lategame with proper unit control
- Allows for upgrades to "line up", causing units to be stronger at certain times than what they would be otherwise
- Allows for heavy droning at certain times
- When used with infestors, nothing escapes. Sounds cheesy now, but when you see it...
- Has a relatively standard 3rd base timing, finishing about the same time as 1/1, allowing for it to be more easily protected
- Makes it super easy to conduct two or three pronged attacks, due to overlord drops
- Allows for baneling or zergling drops on mineral lines

Build Weaknesses
- Can die easily to 6gates if not scouted and reacted accordingly
- Can die easily to stargate play if not scouted and reacted accordingly
- High templar can storm on lings or feedback infestors to demolish the army
- High templar or dts can transition into archons which do a decent splash damage against lings, and tank banelings well
- If not enough drones or hatcheries were made or are existing, then the build can be weak due to individual larvae efficiency

Replays & VODs
Just click download for the ZvP replays found here

The FXOSLoG vs mouzMorroW game from MLG columbus on testbug was casted by Husky, definitely worth a watch if you're still skeptical.

Day9's episode of "Steal This Build" on MorroW's ZvP.

Engaging
Heres a video from Psystarcraft on how to micro the baneling drops.

The lings can be attack moved, although its best to split them into groups for a surround beforehand. Infestors come in to fungal AS the banes are dropping. The key to a correct engagement with this unit composition is timing everything to hit the opponent's army at the same time.

Tweaking the build
After using the build against quite a few protoss opponents, I've found some parts of the build that can be changed. Feel free to take whatever ideas that may benefit you, and use it for your own game, but I reccomend trying the standardized build that I've posted above before you do so.

15pool/16hatch
I thought this was a much better variation for a while, but reassessing it, the 14pool/15hatch allows for an earlier expand, which helps if you havent been scouted yet on a larger 4player map. In that case, you can get your hatchery down before they even get a probe in position sometimes. So really, it depends on whether or not you think you can get your expand down, and it the extra drones are worth the wait for your lings to kill the pylon to get your hatchery down if it doesn't get placed initially. Personally, I think that its safer to go 14pool, due to the lings coming out earlier to kill the pylon.

Keeping a single drone on gas
This is a pretty cool way of keeping track of whether upgrades should be started or not. Instead of watching the timer, you are watching your gas count, which will also decide when you will be putting drones back on gas. Lately, I havent been so exact with the gas timings of the build, but I put two drones back on gas at about 40-50 gas and 40ish food (assuming at least 90% of that food count is drones, rest is 3 queens and 4 scouting lings), which is when I get my first evo and the next two gas. It helps, because if your opponent does something crazy like a cannon rush, that could potentially change the timings of the build, which would cause you to make mistakes later if you rely on the game timer. If you check the gas count.

Keeping drones on gas and getting upgrades sooner
Although I haven't experimented with this much, it could work fairly well to crush early game gateway timings from toss. Assuming you're still droning up effectively and not getting 3 gasses but staying on one instead, you can get your 1/1 ups faster and find it easier to deal with 6gates. Upgrades benefit your army in every engagement you have after the upgrades are done, so it clearly increases unit efficiency over the period of an entire game dramatically if the upgrades are earlier. Only, this build relies on having a huge economy to back up your units that you're constantly trading, so it might be counter productive to sacrifice economy, even if it is in the interest of better efficiency.

Expanding at 6 minute mark instead of 8-9 minute mark
Credit for this idea goes to Aquanda. Because the style is based upon having a huge economy to back you up, while you trade units constantly, it doesn't hurt to get a huge economy up as early as possible. Unless, of course, your opponent decides to punish you for it, but the catch is there are no extraordinary timings the protoss has to combat you making the expansion at this time. In my experience of it, its much safer than it actually sounds.

Don't make macro hatcheries, take more bases
This is another of Aquanda's ideas. You'll need a high larvae count for this build, but also a raging economy. So why not achieve both at the same time, and just take heaps of bases? It also works against protoss in the aspect of their low mobility armies, which will struggle to run all over the map, killing every single base. That can lead you pretty easily into the decision to just forcing a basetrade lategame, and never actually engage their army until you know you can instantly remax and that they won't be able to produce much of an army.

Going for Mutas instead of Infestors
Ultras or Broods are more lategame oriented, and you usually want either mutas or infestors prior to either of those units, so we'll leave those two units out of the question. I've been experimenting with mutas when you see your opponent go for a stargate opener, and I can safely say its pretty strong. You'll have your queens and spores to fall back on, and if you constantly bait the phoenix towards you, they generally won't succeed. Just remember to never chase the phoenix, it is a LOT harder on the protoss when they have to time it perfectly, and they don't even know when you're going to be changing directions.

Another good point to make is that collossus are often a transition from forge FE into stargates, because hydras are the usual answer instead of spire units. If you have a lot of zerglings made and go for mutaling instead of ling bane infestor, you can crush your protoss opponent if you didn't lose much while defending the stargate pressure. Just target the collossus down and try to keep your mutas as safe as possible. A good idea is to send your ling/bane in to tank shots from the stalkers, while your mutas handle the collossus. You can pretty much ignore any stargate units after the engagement, as more mutas will spawn eventually to deal with any remainers, which there shouldn't be many of unless you decided to throw banes into the mix, or any other gas heavy unit.

Final Thoughts
I think MorroW's ZvP performance at MLG columbus was insanely good for this style of gameplay. I've been a long fan of Aquanda's ZvP style, but to be honest, Im probably going to switch completely to this style so that my play is more standardized and so that the timings where my army is strong are very clear. If the protoss pushes in midgame to this build, and hasn't attempted to interrupt the droning of the zerg player prior to that point, it feels like its an autowin for the zerg player. Its a very solid build, as long as scouting is done correctly and no insane surprises are pulled out of the hat from the protoss player.

Similar ZvP Styles
Liked the information in this thread, but you are looking for something slightly different? Check out these links!

http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?...3&cid=0&kind=1
- Posted in a reply to this thread from pon, this is a variation that Nestea has used.

http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/communi...sgid=14373&p=1
- Its all in korean, but at the top right are replays from various players using Nestea's build.

Translations of replay names (Which are the players who used the style):
풍선 -> Balloon
세렌 -> Seren
아토시스 -> Artosis (Yes, ACTUALLY Artosis)
파투 -> Paatoo
레인드랍 -> RainDrop

http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-w...quanda-4819300
- This is where I originally learnt about the style, while I was struggling with standard ZvP. Its an episode of 12 weeks with the pros with mrbitter, before he uploaded the episodes to his youtube channel. Its yet again another variation of the build, using the earliest safe expansions possible and massing them up, so you can trade in army after army and get into a commanding lead.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=197338
- Replays from Aquanda against various players in a ZvP format. Good to see how the build fares against various builds.

Quick Comments

:

excellent writeup :)

[matthras]

I assume you mean 20/21 Hatch only if the 15 Hatch is denied by a pylon.

When I was using Baneling drops on mineral lines, I'd be aiming for a quick +2 (naturally so that they 1 shot Probes). A few games I managed to get the timing right such that +1 attack would finish as soon as Lair finished so I could research +2 immediately (though I just realised I could've refined this even more by getting +2 to finish as soon as OV drop finishes).

You can also delay OV speed a little as it takes a shorter time to research, but having it earlier is useful for scouting otherwise.

Otherwise, a huge thanks for writing this up!

[Satu]

Originally Posted by matthras

I assume you mean 20/21 Hatch only if the 15 Hatch is denied by a pylon.

When I was using Baneling drops on mineral lines, I'd be aiming for a quick +2 (naturally so that they 1 shot Probes). A few games I managed to get the timing right such that +1 attack would finish as soon as Lair finished so I could research +2 immediately (though I just realised I could've refined this even more by getting +2 to finish as soon as OV drop finishes).

You can also delay OV speed a little as it takes a shorter time to research, but having it earlier is useful for scouting otherwise.

Otherwise, a huge thanks for writing this up!

Yeah, I did mean 20/21 hatch only if the 15hatch was denied. I just edited that in ^_^

+2 banes own mineral lines, oneshotting with banes is epic. Good to try and hit that timing!

You COULD delay overlord speed, but yes, scouting wise its better to get it earlier, and also, it can get to the point where you're trying to line up so many things that inevitably you'll screw something up. Its like x10 easier to make three upgrades at once rather than timing them all to finish at the same time. Thats why all of those upgrades are listed to start when lair finishes, even though they all have different research times. It allows for APM to be used more effectively, basically.

No problem on the writeup bro, I wish more zergs would use this kind of playstyle in ZvP!

Although, it might be best to check out Aquanda's style as well if this build doesn't feel like a perfect fit. Another alternative could be FXOtgun's version he used vs TAms at some point, where he added roaches to the mix, leaving more left over after each engagement (Dunno where replays or VODs would be for that version, although I know they'd exist somewhere).

[crAzerk]

@matthras - There are many maps (e.g. close spawn ST, Metal, Slagpits even XNC) where Toss can do a 2gate zealot into stalker pressure to punish a hatch first opening, so I think because of that Zergs are going gas/pool first. I also checked with nirvana if this was so, and he said yes, any good Toss will put on some pressure if you hatch first and it'll be hard to defend zealots with just slow lings.
And if you say how about bigger maps like Taldarim? Well those maps Toss typically FFE, and that means cannons, which if properly executed (wellplaced cannons/pylon) WILL stop a 15 hatch flat in its tracks.

Good job with writing up the BO and gameplay guidelines!

This is fairly similar (or IS the build?) to the latest trend of ling/bling/infestor ZvP style isn't it? Probably good to have infestors out for some fungal growth in case of uber blink splits and preventing them from dodging the baneling bombs.

As you said, it IS kinda weak to stargate heavy play, but with those early evo chambers it should be easy to plant down pre-emptive spores for air/DTs.

And one problem I had with this build was, as you mentioned, the 6 gate timing push (off FFE). I can't remember what it was, I think I couldn't get a big enough army or drops hadn't finished yet and he hit. Maybe I wasn't executing right? I don't know. Does it hold?

[matthras]

@crAzerk: Careful :P I didn't say to go 15 Hatch before Pool, just pointed out something that Zergtastic hadn't clarified. I personally go 15 Pool 16 Hatch which is good enough for me.

I think the idea I had vs Stargate play is just to go ahead and Baneling bust his front (similar to doing a Roach/Ling all in if you scout a Stargate). After all, investment in Stargate tech means a weaker ground army, but unfortunately I haven't had any games to support the idea.

I can't comment on 6 Gate unfortunately. At most I've always had Baneling speed done in time any Gateway pressure push has come my way so I don't have the experience to comment on stronger/earlier pushes.

[EveJeonSa]

Might want to add that if he manages to fend of your army you're gonna have a hard time re-establishing it, dangerous especially if he counter attacks. (Can be fended with blink stalker split, some hallucinate and High templars as well)

[PapaBigBelly]

is it 2 PROMPT attack or 2 PRONGE attack? 0.o

[crAzerk]

@ArousalPerMinute
Neither. It is 2-PRONG attack.

@matthras
Ah I see.
Hmm baneling bust does sound interesting though, but we have to see the timings of everything. Do you mean a 2 base bust or just a 1 base bust?
Regardless, it is still very risky as if he scouts it and Chronos out some Sentries in time there could be some problems. I think you can do damage with the baneling bust, but won't be able to win the game with it (which isn't really a problem, just saying )

Alot of stargate play is based off a FFE though - so will baneling bust still be viable? I haven't had much experience trying to baneling bust a FFE wall (usually Roach bust) so I'm not too familiar with this.

[PapaBigBelly]

Baneling bust does work vs FEE but you must time it right.
Its actually better if the toss goes stargate cause the wont have sentries to FF or other units to block
just get a few extra queens as there will only be 1 void that manages to pop out after you destroeyd the stargate or the pylon powering it

[SLCN.Kez]

i used to use this build a lot but there is a few problems other than the ones u guys have mentioned. Yeah stargate play is pretty farken annoying to deal with, especially if on tal they go 2 stargate after forge FE. with the 6 gate +1 attack it can be really hard as lings get melted by +1 zealots and ovie drop isnt quite done yet, i found that u can do one of 2 things. u can skip upgrades and go straight into infestor tech but this is hard as u kinda have to expect him goin 6 gate (which u can if u scout the forge spinning). or you can mass a whole shit ton of lings BEFORE he moves out with it and crush his opening force which is really only a 7-9 stalkers +1-2 sentries +1-2 zealots, which buys u a whole heap of time to get out ur ovie drop+speed+(+1) and all the other good stuff. however if i scout stargate (as that pops around 7 mins) then ill usually go roach hydra and do idra style vs MC at mlg (where idra won). And btw i wouldnt call this morrow build, ive seen tgun do this for last 6 months or so to great effect! However after saying all this i still prefer roach+infestor/corrupter as i feel its more robust and engaging with ling/bling/drop is kinda hard and if toss splits his shit up (which im sure they will do eventually as meta game changes) then i think ull be seeing this style become a lot less effective, and like someone said it is prone to counter attacks if u dont do enough damage as its hard to mass up enough lings/blings right after ur shit just died to his ground army. But i do incorporate bling drops tho as those things are freakin awesome .

[PiG]

Interesting build but I don't see it as particularly solid for all the reasons stated above. Definitely something fun to throw out there once in a while though!

[Next_rim]

I've had some zergs play bling infestor against me. Either they sucked, or my forge FE is just a solid counter to it. Go figure.

[Satu]

Dont know if morrow is being given enough credit here ;P

The style is actually really solid provided you scout correctly. Watch the games from MLG, he 2-0'd three protosses using only this style.

To whoever started discussion on a baneling bust build, this isn't the right thread. Watch the games and you can see Morrow doesn't just choose to blindly bust his way into his opponent's base and win with this build.

Originally Posted by kez

i used to use this build a lot but there is a few problems other than the ones u guys have mentioned. Yeah stargate play is pretty farken annoying to deal with, especially if on tal they go 2 stargate after forge FE. with the 6 gate +1 attack it can be really hard as lings get melted by +1 zealots and ovie drop isnt quite done yet, i found that u can do one of 2 things. u can skip upgrades and go straight into infestor tech but this is hard as u kinda have to expect him goin 6 gate (which u can if u scout the forge spinning). or you can mass a whole shit ton of lings BEFORE he moves out with it and crush his opening force which is really only a 7-9 stalkers +1-2 sentries +1-2 zealots, which buys u a whole heap of time to get out ur ovie drop+speed+(+1) and all the other good stuff. however if i scout stargate (as that pops around 7 mins) then ill usually go roach hydra and do idra style vs MC at mlg (where idra won). And btw i wouldnt call this morrow build, ive seen tgun do this for last 6 months or so to great effect! However after saying all this i still prefer roach+infestor/corrupter as i feel its more robust and engaging with ling/bling/drop is kinda hard and if toss splits his shit up (which im sure they will do eventually as meta game changes) then i think ull be seeing this style become a lot less effective, and like someone said it is prone to counter attacks if u dont do enough damage as its hard to mass up enough lings/blings right after ur shit just died to his ground army. But i do incorporate bling drops tho as those things are freakin awesome .

1. Its annoying if they go 2stargate, but its still the same response as standard play, and its actually about as hard to hold off as standard play as well. You can still go for defensive hydras if you're forced to.

2. vs 6gate you need a heap of spine crawlers and you need to engage near them. Once you get a sufficient baneling count, you should be fine.

3. Never skip the upgrades, they are what makes the style work. If you skip them, the lings will be hilariously weak and baneling drops on mineral lines won't be viable. Banes dropping on an army will still KINDA work, just not nearly as well as before. Infestors aren't really the key unit in this composition, no point rushing straight to them. In fact, the composition works well with no infestors, they are more for neurals and fungals to allow better ling bane engagements. You can always substitute mutas or corruptors in, instead of infestors as well.

4. Tgun has a yet again different variation, where he adds roaches. Tbh, every ling bane style in ZvP nowadays is just a variation of Aquanda's style, but the way morrow structures his tech/upgrades around his economy is different than what I've seen other players do (Everything lines up REALLY nicely), thus I think its fine to call it his own style.

5. Counter attacks? This isn't a bane bust strategy. At no point do you just go and charge into your opponents base and ask to be countered. You just bane drop or counter them when THEY are thinking of being aggresive (you cannot simply cowbell into mordor). I dont see this as being open to counter attacks if theres no point where you leave yourself extremely weak.

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I've had some zergs play bling infestor against me. Either they sucked, or my forge FE is just a solid counter to it. Go figure.

If they suck, or don't do the build properly, you cant really say that theres a problem to the correct version of the build.

[Paroxysm]

Can someone explain to me/teach me how to successfully pull of a baneling drop ontop of a protoss army?

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

Can someone explain to me/teach me how to successfully pull of a baneling drop ontop of a protoss army?

Added to the OP.

[Next_rim]

If I'm getting this correctly, the build is designed around destroying passive Hasuobs-style 2-base push, and dropping econ bling bombs while at it. I've seen Sen vs Nony with very similar play, but Nony was being passive too, and Sen switched to roach-bling after 4th base. Would love to see a replay against an agressive protoss, like WhiteRa, Cruncher, or Orb.

Waiting for MC to stop cheesing, and come up with a solid strategy so I can copy it. Until then, I'm back to a-moving diamond ladder with carriers

[SLCN.Kez]

its silly to say "morrow 2-0 his 3 protoss opponents with it" im sure plenty of people have 2-0'd lots of protoss' with roach hydra doesnt mean its the best and thus should go it. but yeah i think its a hard style to pull off but if you wanna do it then go for it! and tgun did used to do something pretty much same as this about 6-7 months ago (he must have changed it) cauz i used to play with/against him when he was usin it.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by kez

its silly to say "morrow 2-0 his 3 protoss opponents with it" im sure plenty of people have 2-0'd lots of protoss' with roach hydra doesnt mean its the best and thus should go it. but yeah i think its a hard style to pull off but if you wanna do it then go for it! and tgun did used to do something pretty much same as this about 6-7 months ago (he must have changed it) cauz i used to play with/against him when he was usin it.

Im not saying ling bling is better, Im saying its solid. Unless you can say why morrow 2-0'ing tosses with this style shows it not to be a solid style, not much of an arguement.

Also, tgun learnt the style initially off watching Aquanda. I asked him at some point about it ^_^

[pikk0n]

Kez, so how would you suggest going up against the toss army? Isn't Morrow's method rather standard for ZvPs now?

[SLCN.Kez]

im not saying it is bad, im saying it can be harder for newer players to do. i said i used to do it and worked quite well but what i stated were merely some problems u can come in to. and morrow 2-0 toss' just cauz hes a good player who utilises ling/bling well, im sure hes 2-0'd many toss' with roach hydra as well, i wasnt arguing the effectiveness of it, more or less that the arguement for it being good wasnt really a valid one if u know what i mean. and against toss usually i go pretty old school idra style with drops/nydus and maybe the occasional ling/bling game if i feel like it. but yeah its more or less a preference thing

[Satu]

Originally Posted by kez

im not saying it is bad, im saying it can be harder for newer players to do. i said i used to do it and worked quite well but what i stated were merely some problems u can come in to. and morrow 2-0 toss' just cauz hes a good player who utilises ling/bling well, im sure hes 2-0'd many toss' with roach hydra as well, i wasnt arguing the effectiveness of it, more or less that the arguement for it being good wasnt really a valid one if u know what i mean. and against toss usually i go pretty old school idra style with drops/nydus and maybe the occasional ling/bling game if i feel like it. but yeah its more or less a preference thing

So is it a preference thing or effectiveness? xD

I feel like at first you were arguing effectiveness... Well if you dont have an arguement to put forwards I dont really have much to reply with haha

[PuppetMaster557]

TLDR, Would not view again.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Constructive...
	SLCN.NXZ:	Thanks for the very helpful post, good sir. I hope you have a nice day giving your incredibly constructice advice around the forums.

[Satu]

Just added the video of day9's steal this build episode on MorroW's ZvP.

[SLCN.Kez]

LOL exactly its a preference thing. the best way to win an arguement isnt to argue with it ahahaha

[pon]

The counter 6-gate is burrow.

Nestea has also used this strategy. Here's the guide:
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?...3&cid=0&kind=1

This is more refined as you don't research baneling speed, drops, ovie speed blindly (too much gas, may delay upgrades, etc).

If he goes 6-gate (use your starsense, maybe), get burrow.

If he does 3-gate into robo, you'll need banespeed then drop after when collosus comes.

If he goes stargate, I agree with the bust. Or just prevent him from taking his natural while you get spore/queen maybe few hydra.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by pon

The counter 6-gate is burrow.

Nestea has also used this strategy. Here's the guide:
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?...3&cid=0&kind=1

This is more refined as you don't research baneling speed, drops, ovie speed blindly (too much gas, may delay upgrades, etc).

If he goes 6-gate (use your starsense, maybe), get burrow.

If he does 3-gate into robo, you'll need banespeed then drop after when collosus comes.

If he goes stargate, I agree with the bust. Or just prevent him from taking his natural while you get spore/queen maybe few hydra.

I no longer see 6gate as a hardcounter to this strat, although it can be seen a soft counter. If you scout a 6gate, depending on the choke you have available, you should have about 4-6 spines placed down before he hits you, and have plenty of ling bane created as well. The trick is to come from as many angles as possible, then you should crush the 6gate. If you go burrow vs the 6gate, some players choose to get a robo out and observers as well, which can completely destroy that plan. On top of that, burrowed bane placement needs to be really good, and you'll have a very thin timing (actually Im not sure if you'll even have lair in time) in which to make the banes, get burrow tech, then burrow your banes.

3gate into robo with quick collossus isn't viable vs this strategy. You can probably get 4base and still be safe, just suicide a handful of banes into it and clean it up with lings.

If he goes stargate, I like to get a spire up and go muta/ling. It makes more sense, as the mutas won't affect your mobility, whereas hydras will. Its popular to transition into collossus after stargate openers, which mutas should fare well against as well. Basically the only viable option toss then has are high templar, which is why you should still have bane drops. High templar die to two banes each, and if they are all grouped up, you can kill about 5-10 with only two banes. Just ensure to kill the temps as you engage and not after, or you will kill them and have no army left to stop the protoss.

There are a few allins that are strong against this build early on, involving mass sentry zealot, but they have to push with it really early, and even then you should have a lot of spines to stop them from doing too much damage, while also engaging properly.

The build has weaknesses, but I believe it has more strengths, regardless. I will probably change my mind if I vsed really strong protoss opponents, but if MorroW can destroy protosses at his level of play with this style, then I don't see what is stopping anyone else.

[Xeen]

Ling/bling has been in use for quite awhile (Master used to use it a bunch last year), especially on NA ladder. In my opinion, it beats the hell out of roach play, which is far less flexibile and effective past a point.

Ling heavy builds provide more significant map control, making it difficult to pressure. When you add blings, gateway aggression becomes impractical and there is a requirement for splash damage. Cue turtling to t3. This gives Zerg the chance to expand, drone up, and provide gas for upgrades, infestors, and hive-tech. Protoss needs to be extremely careful with how aggressive they are, and how they position in every engagement.

The biggest aspect in my view is that lings and blings are fought differently. You ball against lings, you spread against blings. There are no good units for engaging both besides heavy spash units (colossi and archons, which can be NPd, or HT) or sheer number advantages. The issue with that is ling/bling is very mobile, allowing amazing potential harass with cracklings and banes on minerals.

I like playing against it though, it's a lot more fun.

[Satu]

Just updated the OP!

I added a section of ideas on how the build can be tweaked, changed the title scheme and added a Husky VOD of MorroW vs SLoG. Hope some of you are taking some of this information and getting some use out of it! Although, I'll be honest, I was doing the research myself to try to refine my own ZvP, so this thread was mostly me compiling the ideas in an organised manner. More selfish than some of you might have thought! xD

[Meatex]

This was my standard ZvP build until I started encountering protoss that could make HT
Very nice write but missed that point. HT's will melt lings but I find they don't do enough damage quick enough to banelings at least once you have 3,3
I don't think its as weak as you say to forge fe into stargate at least if you go 6 min 3rd. and extra queens are always good because usually every expo after the 2nd you want to add a macro hatch with it

I have tried playing around with keeping the drones on gas and going for armor first (which I believe takes longer) But usually I will takes guys of of gas at 100 and leave one guy on. Evo at 64 gas which will pop exactly when you have 100 - then baneling nest at 50 gas then 2 guys back on gas. Lair at 100 then grab the 5 remaining gas.
The benefits to this is faster econ (the third will go down at around the 6 min mark) but at the sacrifice of fastest +1 armor. Its also weak to zealot heavy gateway push because you don't have enough banelings in time because of delayed gases at 2nd and 3rd.
This is fine if he is 3 gate expanding or forge FE but other more aggressive builds will cause problems.
If the protoss does a 1 base stargate opening he can deny the third because most maps don't have nearby third.

I usually skip infestors and go for insane amount of banelings and lings with broodlords. though its situational as you can't defend lots of spread out bases with this
you need spines to defend drop harass and control his ball with insane number of lings and blings

The reason this style is good is because its not AS vulnerable to good force fields. Of course the toss can FF you but you can pull what you have left back and reinforce or drop on him. But the key is constant harass with lings and banelings via any method you can. You need insanely good multi tasking ands high APM for this style to work at higher levels where the toss will have good FF

Anyway good write up

Suggestions to add should talk about threat of HT
Also the need to harass and deny expansions
And lastly you have to know when to engage and when to counter. The strength of this is that the protoss is kept afraid (as long as you stay active with the lings) so he won't want to move out. If he tries to shark, lings will come in and kill his nexus or workers etc.
Thats very hard to do while staying on top of your macro so the build is not anywhere near as easy to pull off as roach hydra.
And its so sad to see all lings disappear to 2 storms TT especially when you have over 100

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Meatex

This was my standard ZvP build until I started encountering protoss that could make HT
Very nice write but missed that point. HT's will melt lings but I find they don't do enough damage quick enough to banelings at least once you have 3,3
I don't think its as weak as you say to forge fe into stargate at least if you go 6 min 3rd. and extra queens are always good because usually every expo after the 2nd you want to add a macro hatch with it

I have tried playing around with keeping the drones on gas and going for armor first (which I believe takes longer) But usually I will takes guys of of gas at 100 and leave one guy on. Evo at 64 gas which will pop exactly when you have 100 - then baneling nest at 50 gas then 2 guys back on gas. Lair at 100 then grab the 5 remaining gas.
The benefits to this is faster econ (the third will go down at around the 6 min mark) but at the sacrifice of fastest +1 armor. Its also weak to zealot heavy gateway push because you don't have enough banelings in time because of delayed gases at 2nd and 3rd.
This is fine if he is 3 gate expanding or forge FE but other more aggressive builds will cause problems.
If the protoss does a 1 base stargate opening he can deny the third because most maps don't have nearby third.

I usually skip infestors and go for insane amount of banelings and lings with broodlords. though its situational as you can't defend lots of spread out bases with this
you need spines to defend drop harass and control his ball with insane number of lings and blings

The reason this style is good is because its not AS vulnerable to good force fields. Of course the toss can FF you but you can pull what you have left back and reinforce or drop on him. But the key is constant harass with lings and banelings via any method you can. You need insanely good multi tasking ands high APM for this style to work at higher levels where the toss will have good FF

Anyway good write up

Suggestions to add should talk about threat of HT
Also the need to harass and deny expansions
And lastly you have to know when to engage and when to counter. The strength of this is that the protoss is kept afraid (as long as you stay active with the lings) so he won't want to move out. If he tries to shark, lings will come in and kill his nexus or workers etc.
Thats very hard to do while staying on top of your macro so the build is not anywhere near as easy to pull off as roach hydra.
And its so sad to see all lings disappear to 2 storms TT especially when you have over 100

Just want to respond to some of the ideas you put forth

High templar owning lings/infestors with storms
You pretty much have to try to get banes connecting before the high templar are able to kill anything. So basically, send your overlords over their army first. The tradeoff for having a lot of high templar and archon/zealot is they wont have anything to kill the overlords efficiently. If they go for high templar and blink stalker, that can make it different, but they will generally be spending a lot of gas on high templar, making there be less anti air, and more zealots. Once you kill the sentries, high templar and zealots with the banelings, don't engage in a choke and you'll win. So basically remax after suiciding the banelings, and just wait while getting more bases. If they try to get more zealots/high templar/sentries, suicide more banelings in again with overlord drops. It can be useful to have 2-3 extra queens to heal your overlords that are doing the bane drops for the 2nd/3rd runs.

A different though is that Infestors outrange high templar, so you can keep fungalling them, or neural a high temp and start doing feedback on other high templar. Although, I think neurals dont actually outrange them, only fungals do. I only recommend this in a wide open space, though, as they should be dropping storms regardless. Only do this if you can remax quickly as well.

Skipping infestors for broodlords
I really don't like this idea, because you generally need something before broodlords, mutas or infestors. Why? Because the protoss might just kill you before you manage to get your broodlords out. Sure, if they are going stargate or collossus heavy, get a spire and corruptors out with the ling/bane, and ensure they don't reduce you to below 4base. But if they go straight to high templar, it would be a lot harder to hold off the pushes.

Another thing to consider is that broodlords will slow the mobility of your army significantly, which is one of the real strengths of the style, as it allows you to choose when an engagement will occur. With broodlords, you might not be able to always engage when you want to.

Originally Posted by TheTinyOne

This is a very good strat because the mineral will surely stack up thus makes it easier to expand. Also, this strat don't need that many baneling because it explode right in the middle of the forces. I recon, usually its a 90% win once this pull off. Tho, it's not easy to engage the ball - zergling and overlord gotto engage at the same time to minimize casualty.

I was only going to respond to meatex, but then read your post without just skimming over it.

Not getting many banelings
No, you need a lot of banelings. Even if you have banelings left over afterwards, you should be using banelings so much that it'll make your eyes water. Its pretty much the whole point of the build, that you trade banelings in, cost-effectively, while having a huge economy. Then repeat. If you don't have enough banes and lose a single engagement as a result, you can sometimes end up losing the entire game due to the fact you've sacrificed an army and the re-maxed army might not be able to stop your opponent, if you just engage the same way.

Basically, get more banes than you need (applies for infestors too), just in case you would have ended up not winning an engagement.

[TheTinyOne]

This is a very good strat because the mineral will surely stack up thus makes it easier to expand. Also, this strat don't need that many baneling because it explode right in the middle of the forces. I recon, usually its a 90% win once this pull off. Tho, it's not easy to engage the ball - zergling and overlord gotto engage at the same time to minimize casualty.

[Meatex]

well if played well I have 3,3 upgrades and broodlords out at 15 minutes
and on maps like typhon and metal the mobility isn't a problem
I will also use it when the protoss is being defensive, i will have my mass ling baneling keeping a contain and seige his natural with broodlords to force him to come out where i want him so my banelings can asplode them ^^

Storms do a lot of damage to overlords as well and just a few stalkers can can take out the overlords though it depends on positioning. Out in the open yes. But on a map full of chokes its doesn't work as well. Also if you try a runby into the natural and 1 HT on high ground takes out all your lings then TT
HT's will be towards the back of the wall protected by gateway army and coll maybe void rays so not sure if you could defend infestors to fungal the HT
But regardless BL are another option that work very well if you have harassed successfully as the protoss should be playing quite defensive trying to make sure his third and forth get up then you siege him with BL force his army out into the open where you slam your 100 banelings into him :P

[Eldrid]

Archons make this strat useless. Please show me a decent toss using archons who loses to this ...

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

Archons make this strat useless. Please show me a decent toss using archons who loses to this ...

Its not the archons that matter, its everything else. The high templar, zealots and sentries disintegrate to the banelings, leaving the lings to clean up whatever is left, including archons. You want to see a decent toss using archons that loses to this? Check out the VOD, or some of aquanda's ZvP replays.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

Archons make this strat useless. Please show me a decent toss using archons who loses to this ...

dont worry guys just mass archon ez win

I see that strategy here has rather low standards. Not only does it take significant time to build up archon numbers, they can be neuraled.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Xeen

I see that strategy here has rather low standards.

I'd post this on TL.net, but I've been trolled enough from the strategy forums already over there.

Hint: Look at my avatar

[maximusPrime]

I hope this doesn't start becoming more regularly used by zerg's...my FF's are my most useful tool against them and if they start working against me it will be worrying.

Not specifically referring to this exact build but I definitely think that baneling drops need to be more regularly used in ZvP. It's not all that often that they happen to me but when they are done correctly it is a major pain in the ass. When protoss get their colossus death ball going and have all their units clumped together, a few banelings dropped in the middle and you're in some serious trouble.

[SLCN.NXZ]

I use to use this style ALL the time way back when aquanda featured it on 12 weeks. Morrow's version seems much more refined but I would definitely prefer the 6 min third (or take your third when he takes his nat) over the 8-9 min third that Morrow seems to favor. I slowly stopped doing this build when after watching sheth play his similar style except with slower upgrades but roaches to deal with 6 gates. Basically he went for the really fast 3rd makes ridiculous amounts of drones with just enough roaches out in time to defend. Meanwhile hes getting roach speed/burrow and/+1 ranged.

This leads to a ling bane drop style only with a much stronger 6 gate defense and an army that in general has more hp and deals with things like archons and storms a bit better. That's the style I've been using alot currently but after reading this and watching some of MorroW's zvp reps from MLG, I wanted to try ling/bane out again.

After a couple of games I have a couple of questions.

If the hatch gets blocked would a build like 14gas/14pool or 11 pool/18 hatch have a stronger economy due to the inability to get pylon blocked?

If your opponent is 6 gating the response is to rush out the baneling drops and just force him to waste ff's using your banes until they come up?

And finally could adding roaches for a stronger backbone to the army (albeit less offensive potential) a stronger choice for the midgame? (Ultras take over once you reach hive)


Thanks for the great writeup!!

[Satu]

Originally Posted by NXZ

I use to use this style ALL the time way back when aquanda featured it on 12 weeks. Morrow's version seems much more refined but I would definitely prefer the 6 min third (or take your third when he takes his nat) over the 8-9 min third that Morrow seems to favor. I slowly stopped doing this build when after watching sheth play his similar style except with slower upgrades but roaches to deal with 6 gates. Basically he went for the really fast 3rd makes ridiculous amounts of drones with just enough roaches out in time to defend. Meanwhile hes getting roach speed/burrow and/+1 ranged.

This leads to a ling bane drop style only with a much stronger 6 gate defense and an army that in general has more hp and deals with things like archons and storms a bit better. That's the style I've been using alot currently but after reading this and watching some of MorroW's zvp reps from MLG, I wanted to try ling/bane out again.

After a couple of games I have a couple of questions.

If the hatch gets blocked would a build like 14gas/14pool or 11 pool/18 hatch have a stronger economy due to the inability to get pylon blocked?

If your opponent is 6 gating the response is to rush out the baneling drops and just force him to waste ff's using your banes until they come up?

And finally could adding roaches for a stronger backbone to the army (albeit less offensive potential) a stronger choice for the midgame? (Ultras take over once you reach hive)


Thanks for the great writeup!!

1. The build is more economic than 14g14p and 11p18hatch, its kinda logical. Comparing to 14g14p, you're not getting the gas until later with this build, and you get the hatchery at the same tie. Thus more minerals and a better economy. Comparing to 11p18hatch, you get more drones u\out before the hatch goes down, so you should have more minerals.

2. The idea is usually to go bane drops with a large speedling support group, but I've been tossing ideas around in my head on whether it actually works well, after hitting masters. MorroW likes to get about six spines, but you cant rely on spines when you're taking a third. So you CAN add roaches or hydras, I suppose. Im seriously considering adding hydras, so its hydra ling. The massive problem I see vs 6gate atm, is that they can reproduce their food count and army efficiency faster than what the zerg can, due to the banes constantly being sacrificed. Hydra/ling would just be waaaaaay more cost efficient, although upgraded roaches would probably be a safer option. Which brings me to the next point.

3. It depends entirely on the situation. If my opponent opens stargate off forge FE, I like to get a spire and muta/corruptor out. Then I transition into muta/ling and kill his army based off my lings tanking and the mutas doing splash damage. 6gate you can have a different response to again, and thus a different midgame. If they play a bit more straight up, and go for a fast 3rd, just mass expansions and drones, I make an entirely ling/bane force with bane drops. I then proceed to do bane drops at each of their bases all at the same time when 2/2 for the ling/bane kicks in. So basically, at the moment, I go into midgame with a style that depends on what they do, which really shouldn't be that reliable of a strategy. Going roaches every time allows you to be more prepared for whatever they throw at you, whereas lingbane is starting to seem a bit more situational, the way I see it. Although, ling bane CAN work in every scenario, it can just be hard to make it work.

[ZergGirl]

You are all so crazy with your ZvP and I want to slap you in the face for it D;

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

You are all so crazy with your ZvP and I want to slap you in the face for it D;

Then by all means grace us with YOUR ZvP please

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

Then by all means grace us with YOUR ZvP please

If there was a zerg only section with no pigtoss, I would happily do so. But the pigtoss would abuse any secrets I type here

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

If there was a zerg only section with no pigtoss, I would happily do so. But the pigtoss would abuse any secrets I type here

Good point. PM me? Lol. Pretty keen to have a whole bunch of Pigtoss crushing builds in the arsenal

[maximusPrime]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

If there was a zerg only section with no pigtoss, I would happily do so. But the pigtoss would abuse any secrets I type here

I think you meant brotoss

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by maximusPrime

I think you meant brotoss

Hmm. I had a think about it but I think I was right the first time

[SLCN.NXZ]

Thanks for the answers

6 gate is the biggest problem alongside unscouted stargate allins but anything not involving hydras has trouble with that. If we assume 6 gate hits at 9 mins, obviously with our super fast 3rd we cant make spines for defence. Especially if they go for the increasingly popular blink stalker 6-7 gate which could bypass the spines completely. Hydras while a good solution might just take a little too long to get too and unlike burrow move roaches forcefields will still cause them a lot of trouble.

I tried doing the build with 11 pool on ladder earlier. I won both, one because of a BO win the next because of the effectiveness of bane drops on a toss army. I think that if thew build is tweaked so a fast second queen can be fitted in 11 pool might be a better choice on some maps if the hatchery is blocked using 14/15.

[aLtNinja]

This build is extremely strong in BOX series, it is strong against the common +2 blink stalker 7 gates and any tech play, one of the only real weaknesses are ultra fast 6 gates and if you get a scout on them you can build enough spines to hold them as well.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by stormninja

This build is extremely strong in BOX series, it is strong against the common +2 blink stalker 7 gates and any tech play, one of the only real weaknesses are ultra fast 6 gates and if you get a scout on them you can build enough spines to hold them as well.

+2 blink stalker 7gate can destroy ling bane, depending on the timing and micro. I've lost with this build more to blink stalker heavy 6-7gates than anything else. Basically what you need is a better economy constantly, while trading banes in over and over again, cost-efficiently. If they pick off your 3rd, you're pretty screwed.

This build is really strong against passive protosses, as you can bane drop their mineral lines until they have little to no probes left, then clean up their army.

I'm beginning to go for a different style based off this build, that I will definitely make mention of in the strategy forums if it continues to give good results.

[SLCN.NXZ]

Originally Posted by stormninja

This build is extremely strong in BOX series, it is strong against the common +2 blink stalker 7 gates and any tech play, one of the only real weaknesses are ultra fast 6 gates and if you get a scout on them you can build enough spines to hold them as well.

I disagree blink stalker 7 gate is actually really hard to hold with this build on a lot of maps. Especially if you do the 9 min third that morrow does as spines have extreme difficulty holding blink stalkers.

[DemisodaSPR]

It is incredibly strong against protosses who are not top 30 SEA or top 200 NA because they just don't have the APM to deal with it.

Some people in this thread have asserted that it is a cheese style, and have listed reasons why this is so. It is far too early to make this conclusion. Morrow has 11 ZvP series in public since he started this style. His has only lost 2 series (Socke Dreamhack, Xiaot or something in Starswar). He lost one series to wha tlooked like a snipe build (forge FE into mass zealot) and lost one series to double stargate cheese. Morrow claims that this style is solid against both 6 gates, and can hold 2 star just fine (morrow hydra and infestor off lair if vs stargate) - Morrow's claim sure holds more weight than doubters who are not pro level and have not played with this build for the very long time morrow has.
Idra played with this build for many months, has stopped about 4 months ago, but has shied away from the conclusion that it is not viable because there's so so many ways to approach this style. Idra has recently commented on EGMC that all EU protosses "assure me that this build is airtight to blink stalker cheese off forge FE" - that is pro level toss speaking!
Personally still havent ironed out kinks into this build, such as when to stop droning vs FE constant chrono on core/forge or whether its possible to sneak in a spore in each base if his build range is still composed of dts/stargate as well as some late timing such as blink stalker. Also Morrow's gas timings are quite volatile so is hard to directly copy, but i can see a general theme of vs 3 gate expo doing 33-36 gas retake, 44-49 evo, 4 gas after evo finish etc etc. His 2nd-5th gas timings and evo timings vs forge FE are most volatile, hard for me because I don't know what scouting and other variables he's considewring when decicding on gas timing nad whether to get speed before +1+1 or after it. Am getting there though.

Quick Comments

aLtNinja:

Good analysis

[SLCN.NXZ]

Need to have Morrow on Mrbitter's show or something