[Satu]

Introduction
A month or two ago, a player called Aquanda showed zergs a new style of ZvP that used zerglings and banelings instead of roaches and hydras. He mass expanded, got a huge economy up and then sent wave after wave at his opponents, until they fell apart. Recently, MorroW has used the style of ling/baneling at MLG columbus, but he did it in a slightly different way, that although less economic, seemed to have few holes in the build at all. He managed to crush many protoss opponents at MLG columbus using this same build as his standard ZvP build.

For those of you who don't know what ling/baneling in an engagement looks like, heres FXOSLoG vs mouzMorroW from MLG Columbus:

Before


Scary toss army ;(


Omg now my lings cant hit you. I guess I'll just fly my overlords over and...


Wait... Where'd you go?


After (Protoss supply dropped by 56!)

The Build Order
After reviewing his MLG ZvP replays, I managed to write up the build that MorroW used. I saw a few inconsistencies in his play, and after thinking very hard about each stage, I managed to find the optimal timing for everything tech-related.

14pool
15hatch w/ 2drones, if pylon, pull back.
15overlord
16queen
18 x2ling + gas
20/21hatch if the 15hatch was blocked
@92 gas start pulling drones
@100 gas metabolic boost
@95% metabolic boost, 3 drones on gas
@40 gas, evo chamber
@100 gas, melee attacks lv 1
@100% evo chamber, x3gas
@90 gas, evo chamber
@150 gas, carapace lv 1
@100 gas, lair
@20s lair, make bane nest.
@100% lair, overlord drops & speed, bane speed
@8-9 min mark, take 3rd and maybe macro hatch
Make infestation pit while making 5th & 6th gasses, while fully saturated at 3rd.
Pathogen glands when infestation pit completes
@31s Pathogen glands, begin infestor production

Build Strengths
- Crushes gateway unit heavy armies
- Zealots and sentries and high templar disintegrate to banelings
- Rediculously strong in midgame to lategame with proper unit control
- Allows for upgrades to "line up", causing units to be stronger at certain times than what they would be otherwise
- Allows for heavy droning at certain times
- When used with infestors, nothing escapes. Sounds cheesy now, but when you see it...
- Has a relatively standard 3rd base timing, finishing about the same time as 1/1, allowing for it to be more easily protected
- Makes it super easy to conduct two or three pronged attacks, due to overlord drops
- Allows for baneling or zergling drops on mineral lines

Build Weaknesses
- Can die easily to 6gates if not scouted and reacted accordingly
- Can die easily to stargate play if not scouted and reacted accordingly
- High templar can storm on lings or feedback infestors to demolish the army
- High templar or dts can transition into archons which do a decent splash damage against lings, and tank banelings well
- If not enough drones or hatcheries were made or are existing, then the build can be weak due to individual larvae efficiency

Replays & VODs
Just click download for the ZvP replays found here

The FXOSLoG vs mouzMorroW game from MLG columbus on testbug was casted by Husky, definitely worth a watch if you're still skeptical.

Day9's episode of "Steal This Build" on MorroW's ZvP.

Engaging
Heres a video from Psystarcraft on how to micro the baneling drops.

The lings can be attack moved, although its best to split them into groups for a surround beforehand. Infestors come in to fungal AS the banes are dropping. The key to a correct engagement with this unit composition is timing everything to hit the opponent's army at the same time.

Tweaking the build
After using the build against quite a few protoss opponents, I've found some parts of the build that can be changed. Feel free to take whatever ideas that may benefit you, and use it for your own game, but I reccomend trying the standardized build that I've posted above before you do so.

15pool/16hatch
I thought this was a much better variation for a while, but reassessing it, the 14pool/15hatch allows for an earlier expand, which helps if you havent been scouted yet on a larger 4player map. In that case, you can get your hatchery down before they even get a probe in position sometimes. So really, it depends on whether or not you think you can get your expand down, and it the extra drones are worth the wait for your lings to kill the pylon to get your hatchery down if it doesn't get placed initially. Personally, I think that its safer to go 14pool, due to the lings coming out earlier to kill the pylon.

Keeping a single drone on gas
This is a pretty cool way of keeping track of whether upgrades should be started or not. Instead of watching the timer, you are watching your gas count, which will also decide when you will be putting drones back on gas. Lately, I havent been so exact with the gas timings of the build, but I put two drones back on gas at about 40-50 gas and 40ish food (assuming at least 90% of that food count is drones, rest is 3 queens and 4 scouting lings), which is when I get my first evo and the next two gas. It helps, because if your opponent does something crazy like a cannon rush, that could potentially change the timings of the build, which would cause you to make mistakes later if you rely on the game timer. If you check the gas count.

Keeping drones on gas and getting upgrades sooner
Although I haven't experimented with this much, it could work fairly well to crush early game gateway timings from toss. Assuming you're still droning up effectively and not getting 3 gasses but staying on one instead, you can get your 1/1 ups faster and find it easier to deal with 6gates. Upgrades benefit your army in every engagement you have after the upgrades are done, so it clearly increases unit efficiency over the period of an entire game dramatically if the upgrades are earlier. Only, this build relies on having a huge economy to back up your units that you're constantly trading, so it might be counter productive to sacrifice economy, even if it is in the interest of better efficiency.

Expanding at 6 minute mark instead of 8-9 minute mark
Credit for this idea goes to Aquanda. Because the style is based upon having a huge economy to back you up, while you trade units constantly, it doesn't hurt to get a huge economy up as early as possible. Unless, of course, your opponent decides to punish you for it, but the catch is there are no extraordinary timings the protoss has to combat you making the expansion at this time. In my experience of it, its much safer than it actually sounds.

Don't make macro hatcheries, take more bases
This is another of Aquanda's ideas. You'll need a high larvae count for this build, but also a raging economy. So why not achieve both at the same time, and just take heaps of bases? It also works against protoss in the aspect of their low mobility armies, which will struggle to run all over the map, killing every single base. That can lead you pretty easily into the decision to just forcing a basetrade lategame, and never actually engage their army until you know you can instantly remax and that they won't be able to produce much of an army.

Going for Mutas instead of Infestors
Ultras or Broods are more lategame oriented, and you usually want either mutas or infestors prior to either of those units, so we'll leave those two units out of the question. I've been experimenting with mutas when you see your opponent go for a stargate opener, and I can safely say its pretty strong. You'll have your queens and spores to fall back on, and if you constantly bait the phoenix towards you, they generally won't succeed. Just remember to never chase the phoenix, it is a LOT harder on the protoss when they have to time it perfectly, and they don't even know when you're going to be changing directions.

Another good point to make is that collossus are often a transition from forge FE into stargates, because hydras are the usual answer instead of spire units. If you have a lot of zerglings made and go for mutaling instead of ling bane infestor, you can crush your protoss opponent if you didn't lose much while defending the stargate pressure. Just target the collossus down and try to keep your mutas as safe as possible. A good idea is to send your ling/bane in to tank shots from the stalkers, while your mutas handle the collossus. You can pretty much ignore any stargate units after the engagement, as more mutas will spawn eventually to deal with any remainers, which there shouldn't be many of unless you decided to throw banes into the mix, or any other gas heavy unit.

Final Thoughts
I think MorroW's ZvP performance at MLG columbus was insanely good for this style of gameplay. I've been a long fan of Aquanda's ZvP style, but to be honest, Im probably going to switch completely to this style so that my play is more standardized and so that the timings where my army is strong are very clear. If the protoss pushes in midgame to this build, and hasn't attempted to interrupt the droning of the zerg player prior to that point, it feels like its an autowin for the zerg player. Its a very solid build, as long as scouting is done correctly and no insane surprises are pulled out of the hat from the protoss player.

Similar ZvP Styles
Liked the information in this thread, but you are looking for something slightly different? Check out these links!

http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?...3&cid=0&kind=1
- Posted in a reply to this thread from pon, this is a variation that Nestea has used.

http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/communi...sgid=14373&p=1
- Its all in korean, but at the top right are replays from various players using Nestea's build.

Translations of replay names (Which are the players who used the style):
풍선 -> Balloon
세렌 -> Seren
아토시스 -> Artosis (Yes, ACTUALLY Artosis)
파투 -> Paatoo
레인드랍 -> RainDrop

http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-w...quanda-4819300
- This is where I originally learnt about the style, while I was struggling with standard ZvP. Its an episode of 12 weeks with the pros with mrbitter, before he uploaded the episodes to his youtube channel. Its yet again another variation of the build, using the earliest safe expansions possible and massing them up, so you can trade in army after army and get into a commanding lead.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=197338
- Replays from Aquanda against various players in a ZvP format. Good to see how the build fares against various builds.

Quick Comments

:

excellent writeup :)

[matthras]

I assume you mean 20/21 Hatch only if the 15 Hatch is denied by a pylon.

When I was using Baneling drops on mineral lines, I'd be aiming for a quick +2 (naturally so that they 1 shot Probes). A few games I managed to get the timing right such that +1 attack would finish as soon as Lair finished so I could research +2 immediately (though I just realised I could've refined this even more by getting +2 to finish as soon as OV drop finishes).

You can also delay OV speed a little as it takes a shorter time to research, but having it earlier is useful for scouting otherwise.

Otherwise, a huge thanks for writing this up!

[Satu]

Originally Posted by matthras

I assume you mean 20/21 Hatch only if the 15 Hatch is denied by a pylon.

When I was using Baneling drops on mineral lines, I'd be aiming for a quick +2 (naturally so that they 1 shot Probes). A few games I managed to get the timing right such that +1 attack would finish as soon as Lair finished so I could research +2 immediately (though I just realised I could've refined this even more by getting +2 to finish as soon as OV drop finishes).

You can also delay OV speed a little as it takes a shorter time to research, but having it earlier is useful for scouting otherwise.

Otherwise, a huge thanks for writing this up!

Yeah, I did mean 20/21 hatch only if the 15hatch was denied. I just edited that in ^_^

+2 banes own mineral lines, oneshotting with banes is epic. Good to try and hit that timing!

You COULD delay overlord speed, but yes, scouting wise its better to get it earlier, and also, it can get to the point where you're trying to line up so many things that inevitably you'll screw something up. Its like x10 easier to make three upgrades at once rather than timing them all to finish at the same time. Thats why all of those upgrades are listed to start when lair finishes, even though they all have different research times. It allows for APM to be used more effectively, basically.

No problem on the writeup bro, I wish more zergs would use this kind of playstyle in ZvP!

Although, it might be best to check out Aquanda's style as well if this build doesn't feel like a perfect fit. Another alternative could be FXOtgun's version he used vs TAms at some point, where he added roaches to the mix, leaving more left over after each engagement (Dunno where replays or VODs would be for that version, although I know they'd exist somewhere).

[crAzerk]

@matthras - There are many maps (e.g. close spawn ST, Metal, Slagpits even XNC) where Toss can do a 2gate zealot into stalker pressure to punish a hatch first opening, so I think because of that Zergs are going gas/pool first. I also checked with nirvana if this was so, and he said yes, any good Toss will put on some pressure if you hatch first and it'll be hard to defend zealots with just slow lings.
And if you say how about bigger maps like Taldarim? Well those maps Toss typically FFE, and that means cannons, which if properly executed (wellplaced cannons/pylon) WILL stop a 15 hatch flat in its tracks.

Good job with writing up the BO and gameplay guidelines!

This is fairly similar (or IS the build?) to the latest trend of ling/bling/infestor ZvP style isn't it? Probably good to have infestors out for some fungal growth in case of uber blink splits and preventing them from dodging the baneling bombs.

As you said, it IS kinda weak to stargate heavy play, but with those early evo chambers it should be easy to plant down pre-emptive spores for air/DTs.

And one problem I had with this build was, as you mentioned, the 6 gate timing push (off FFE). I can't remember what it was, I think I couldn't get a big enough army or drops hadn't finished yet and he hit. Maybe I wasn't executing right? I don't know. Does it hold?

[EveJeonSa]

Might want to add that if he manages to fend of your army you're gonna have a hard time re-establishing it, dangerous especially if he counter attacks. (Can be fended with blink stalker split, some hallucinate and High templars as well)

[matthras]

@crAzerk: Careful :P I didn't say to go 15 Hatch before Pool, just pointed out something that Zergtastic hadn't clarified. I personally go 15 Pool 16 Hatch which is good enough for me.

I think the idea I had vs Stargate play is just to go ahead and Baneling bust his front (similar to doing a Roach/Ling all in if you scout a Stargate). After all, investment in Stargate tech means a weaker ground army, but unfortunately I haven't had any games to support the idea.

I can't comment on 6 Gate unfortunately. At most I've always had Baneling speed done in time any Gateway pressure push has come my way so I don't have the experience to comment on stronger/earlier pushes.

[PapaBigBelly]

is it 2 PROMPT attack or 2 PRONGE attack? 0.o

[crAzerk]

@ArousalPerMinute
Neither. It is 2-PRONG attack.

@matthras
Ah I see.
Hmm baneling bust does sound interesting though, but we have to see the timings of everything. Do you mean a 2 base bust or just a 1 base bust?
Regardless, it is still very risky as if he scouts it and Chronos out some Sentries in time there could be some problems. I think you can do damage with the baneling bust, but won't be able to win the game with it (which isn't really a problem, just saying )

Alot of stargate play is based off a FFE though - so will baneling bust still be viable? I haven't had much experience trying to baneling bust a FFE wall (usually Roach bust) so I'm not too familiar with this.

[PapaBigBelly]

Baneling bust does work vs FEE but you must time it right.
Its actually better if the toss goes stargate cause the wont have sentries to FF or other units to block
just get a few extra queens as there will only be 1 void that manages to pop out after you destroeyd the stargate or the pylon powering it

[SLCN.Kez]

i used to use this build a lot but there is a few problems other than the ones u guys have mentioned. Yeah stargate play is pretty farken annoying to deal with, especially if on tal they go 2 stargate after forge FE. with the 6 gate +1 attack it can be really hard as lings get melted by +1 zealots and ovie drop isnt quite done yet, i found that u can do one of 2 things. u can skip upgrades and go straight into infestor tech but this is hard as u kinda have to expect him goin 6 gate (which u can if u scout the forge spinning). or you can mass a whole shit ton of lings BEFORE he moves out with it and crush his opening force which is really only a 7-9 stalkers +1-2 sentries +1-2 zealots, which buys u a whole heap of time to get out ur ovie drop+speed+(+1) and all the other good stuff. however if i scout stargate (as that pops around 7 mins) then ill usually go roach hydra and do idra style vs MC at mlg (where idra won). And btw i wouldnt call this morrow build, ive seen tgun do this for last 6 months or so to great effect! However after saying all this i still prefer roach+infestor/corrupter as i feel its more robust and engaging with ling/bling/drop is kinda hard and if toss splits his shit up (which im sure they will do eventually as meta game changes) then i think ull be seeing this style become a lot less effective, and like someone said it is prone to counter attacks if u dont do enough damage as its hard to mass up enough lings/blings right after ur shit just died to his ground army. But i do incorporate bling drops tho as those things are freakin awesome .

[PiG]

Interesting build but I don't see it as particularly solid for all the reasons stated above. Definitely something fun to throw out there once in a while though!

[Next_rim]

I've had some zergs play bling infestor against me. Either they sucked, or my forge FE is just a solid counter to it. Go figure.

[Satu]

Dont know if morrow is being given enough credit here ;P

The style is actually really solid provided you scout correctly. Watch the games from MLG, he 2-0'd three protosses using only this style.

To whoever started discussion on a baneling bust build, this isn't the right thread. Watch the games and you can see Morrow doesn't just choose to blindly bust his way into his opponent's base and win with this build.

Originally Posted by kez

i used to use this build a lot but there is a few problems other than the ones u guys have mentioned. Yeah stargate play is pretty farken annoying to deal with, especially if on tal they go 2 stargate after forge FE. with the 6 gate +1 attack it can be really hard as lings get melted by +1 zealots and ovie drop isnt quite done yet, i found that u can do one of 2 things. u can skip upgrades and go straight into infestor tech but this is hard as u kinda have to expect him goin 6 gate (which u can if u scout the forge spinning). or you can mass a whole shit ton of lings BEFORE he moves out with it and crush his opening force which is really only a 7-9 stalkers +1-2 sentries +1-2 zealots, which buys u a whole heap of time to get out ur ovie drop+speed+(+1) and all the other good stuff. however if i scout stargate (as that pops around 7 mins) then ill usually go roach hydra and do idra style vs MC at mlg (where idra won). And btw i wouldnt call this morrow build, ive seen tgun do this for last 6 months or so to great effect! However after saying all this i still prefer roach+infestor/corrupter as i feel its more robust and engaging with ling/bling/drop is kinda hard and if toss splits his shit up (which im sure they will do eventually as meta game changes) then i think ull be seeing this style become a lot less effective, and like someone said it is prone to counter attacks if u dont do enough damage as its hard to mass up enough lings/blings right after ur shit just died to his ground army. But i do incorporate bling drops tho as those things are freakin awesome .

1. Its annoying if they go 2stargate, but its still the same response as standard play, and its actually about as hard to hold off as standard play as well. You can still go for defensive hydras if you're forced to.

2. vs 6gate you need a heap of spine crawlers and you need to engage near them. Once you get a sufficient baneling count, you should be fine.

3. Never skip the upgrades, they are what makes the style work. If you skip them, the lings will be hilariously weak and baneling drops on mineral lines won't be viable. Banes dropping on an army will still KINDA work, just not nearly as well as before. Infestors aren't really the key unit in this composition, no point rushing straight to them. In fact, the composition works well with no infestors, they are more for neurals and fungals to allow better ling bane engagements. You can always substitute mutas or corruptors in, instead of infestors as well.

4. Tgun has a yet again different variation, where he adds roaches. Tbh, every ling bane style in ZvP nowadays is just a variation of Aquanda's style, but the way morrow structures his tech/upgrades around his economy is different than what I've seen other players do (Everything lines up REALLY nicely), thus I think its fine to call it his own style.

5. Counter attacks? This isn't a bane bust strategy. At no point do you just go and charge into your opponents base and ask to be countered. You just bane drop or counter them when THEY are thinking of being aggresive (you cannot simply cowbell into mordor). I dont see this as being open to counter attacks if theres no point where you leave yourself extremely weak.

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I've had some zergs play bling infestor against me. Either they sucked, or my forge FE is just a solid counter to it. Go figure.

If they suck, or don't do the build properly, you cant really say that theres a problem to the correct version of the build.

[Paroxysm]

Can someone explain to me/teach me how to successfully pull of a baneling drop ontop of a protoss army?

[Next_rim]

If I'm getting this correctly, the build is designed around destroying passive Hasuobs-style 2-base push, and dropping econ bling bombs while at it. I've seen Sen vs Nony with very similar play, but Nony was being passive too, and Sen switched to roach-bling after 4th base. Would love to see a replay against an agressive protoss, like WhiteRa, Cruncher, or Orb.

Waiting for MC to stop cheesing, and come up with a solid strategy so I can copy it. Until then, I'm back to a-moving diamond ladder with carriers

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

Can someone explain to me/teach me how to successfully pull of a baneling drop ontop of a protoss army?

Added to the OP.

[SLCN.Kez]

its silly to say "morrow 2-0 his 3 protoss opponents with it" im sure plenty of people have 2-0'd lots of protoss' with roach hydra doesnt mean its the best and thus should go it. but yeah i think its a hard style to pull off but if you wanna do it then go for it! and tgun did used to do something pretty much same as this about 6-7 months ago (he must have changed it) cauz i used to play with/against him when he was usin it.

[pikk0n]

Kez, so how would you suggest going up against the toss army? Isn't Morrow's method rather standard for ZvPs now?

[Satu]

Originally Posted by kez

its silly to say "morrow 2-0 his 3 protoss opponents with it" im sure plenty of people have 2-0'd lots of protoss' with roach hydra doesnt mean its the best and thus should go it. but yeah i think its a hard style to pull off but if you wanna do it then go for it! and tgun did used to do something pretty much same as this about 6-7 months ago (he must have changed it) cauz i used to play with/against him when he was usin it.

Im not saying ling bling is better, Im saying its solid. Unless you can say why morrow 2-0'ing tosses with this style shows it not to be a solid style, not much of an arguement.

Also, tgun learnt the style initially off watching Aquanda. I asked him at some point about it ^_^

[SLCN.Kez]

im not saying it is bad, im saying it can be harder for newer players to do. i said i used to do it and worked quite well but what i stated were merely some problems u can come in to. and morrow 2-0 toss' just cauz hes a good player who utilises ling/bling well, im sure hes 2-0'd many toss' with roach hydra as well, i wasnt arguing the effectiveness of it, more or less that the arguement for it being good wasnt really a valid one if u know what i mean. and against toss usually i go pretty old school idra style with drops/nydus and maybe the occasional ling/bling game if i feel like it. but yeah its more or less a preference thing