[Satu]

Originally Posted by kez

im not saying it is bad, im saying it can be harder for newer players to do. i said i used to do it and worked quite well but what i stated were merely some problems u can come in to. and morrow 2-0 toss' just cauz hes a good player who utilises ling/bling well, im sure hes 2-0'd many toss' with roach hydra as well, i wasnt arguing the effectiveness of it, more or less that the arguement for it being good wasnt really a valid one if u know what i mean. and against toss usually i go pretty old school idra style with drops/nydus and maybe the occasional ling/bling game if i feel like it. but yeah its more or less a preference thing

So is it a preference thing or effectiveness? xD

I feel like at first you were arguing effectiveness... Well if you dont have an arguement to put forwards I dont really have much to reply with haha

[SLCN.Kez]

LOL exactly its a preference thing. the best way to win an arguement isnt to argue with it ahahaha

[pon]

The counter 6-gate is burrow.

Nestea has also used this strategy. Here's the guide:
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?...3&cid=0&kind=1

This is more refined as you don't research baneling speed, drops, ovie speed blindly (too much gas, may delay upgrades, etc).

If he goes 6-gate (use your starsense, maybe), get burrow.

If he does 3-gate into robo, you'll need banespeed then drop after when collosus comes.

If he goes stargate, I agree with the bust. Or just prevent him from taking his natural while you get spore/queen maybe few hydra.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by pon

The counter 6-gate is burrow.

Nestea has also used this strategy. Here's the guide:
http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?...3&cid=0&kind=1

This is more refined as you don't research baneling speed, drops, ovie speed blindly (too much gas, may delay upgrades, etc).

If he goes 6-gate (use your starsense, maybe), get burrow.

If he does 3-gate into robo, you'll need banespeed then drop after when collosus comes.

If he goes stargate, I agree with the bust. Or just prevent him from taking his natural while you get spore/queen maybe few hydra.

I no longer see 6gate as a hardcounter to this strat, although it can be seen a soft counter. If you scout a 6gate, depending on the choke you have available, you should have about 4-6 spines placed down before he hits you, and have plenty of ling bane created as well. The trick is to come from as many angles as possible, then you should crush the 6gate. If you go burrow vs the 6gate, some players choose to get a robo out and observers as well, which can completely destroy that plan. On top of that, burrowed bane placement needs to be really good, and you'll have a very thin timing (actually Im not sure if you'll even have lair in time) in which to make the banes, get burrow tech, then burrow your banes.

3gate into robo with quick collossus isn't viable vs this strategy. You can probably get 4base and still be safe, just suicide a handful of banes into it and clean it up with lings.

If he goes stargate, I like to get a spire up and go muta/ling. It makes more sense, as the mutas won't affect your mobility, whereas hydras will. Its popular to transition into collossus after stargate openers, which mutas should fare well against as well. Basically the only viable option toss then has are high templar, which is why you should still have bane drops. High templar die to two banes each, and if they are all grouped up, you can kill about 5-10 with only two banes. Just ensure to kill the temps as you engage and not after, or you will kill them and have no army left to stop the protoss.

There are a few allins that are strong against this build early on, involving mass sentry zealot, but they have to push with it really early, and even then you should have a lot of spines to stop them from doing too much damage, while also engaging properly.

The build has weaknesses, but I believe it has more strengths, regardless. I will probably change my mind if I vsed really strong protoss opponents, but if MorroW can destroy protosses at his level of play with this style, then I don't see what is stopping anyone else.

[Xeen]

Ling/bling has been in use for quite awhile (Master used to use it a bunch last year), especially on NA ladder. In my opinion, it beats the hell out of roach play, which is far less flexibile and effective past a point.

Ling heavy builds provide more significant map control, making it difficult to pressure. When you add blings, gateway aggression becomes impractical and there is a requirement for splash damage. Cue turtling to t3. This gives Zerg the chance to expand, drone up, and provide gas for upgrades, infestors, and hive-tech. Protoss needs to be extremely careful with how aggressive they are, and how they position in every engagement.

The biggest aspect in my view is that lings and blings are fought differently. You ball against lings, you spread against blings. There are no good units for engaging both besides heavy spash units (colossi and archons, which can be NPd, or HT) or sheer number advantages. The issue with that is ling/bling is very mobile, allowing amazing potential harass with cracklings and banes on minerals.

I like playing against it though, it's a lot more fun.

[Satu]

Just updated the OP!

I added a section of ideas on how the build can be tweaked, changed the title scheme and added a Husky VOD of MorroW vs SLoG. Hope some of you are taking some of this information and getting some use out of it! Although, I'll be honest, I was doing the research myself to try to refine my own ZvP, so this thread was mostly me compiling the ideas in an organised manner. More selfish than some of you might have thought! xD

[Meatex]

This was my standard ZvP build until I started encountering protoss that could make HT
Very nice write but missed that point. HT's will melt lings but I find they don't do enough damage quick enough to banelings at least once you have 3,3
I don't think its as weak as you say to forge fe into stargate at least if you go 6 min 3rd. and extra queens are always good because usually every expo after the 2nd you want to add a macro hatch with it

I have tried playing around with keeping the drones on gas and going for armor first (which I believe takes longer) But usually I will takes guys of of gas at 100 and leave one guy on. Evo at 64 gas which will pop exactly when you have 100 - then baneling nest at 50 gas then 2 guys back on gas. Lair at 100 then grab the 5 remaining gas.
The benefits to this is faster econ (the third will go down at around the 6 min mark) but at the sacrifice of fastest +1 armor. Its also weak to zealot heavy gateway push because you don't have enough banelings in time because of delayed gases at 2nd and 3rd.
This is fine if he is 3 gate expanding or forge FE but other more aggressive builds will cause problems.
If the protoss does a 1 base stargate opening he can deny the third because most maps don't have nearby third.

I usually skip infestors and go for insane amount of banelings and lings with broodlords. though its situational as you can't defend lots of spread out bases with this
you need spines to defend drop harass and control his ball with insane number of lings and blings

The reason this style is good is because its not AS vulnerable to good force fields. Of course the toss can FF you but you can pull what you have left back and reinforce or drop on him. But the key is constant harass with lings and banelings via any method you can. You need insanely good multi tasking ands high APM for this style to work at higher levels where the toss will have good FF

Anyway good write up

Suggestions to add should talk about threat of HT
Also the need to harass and deny expansions
And lastly you have to know when to engage and when to counter. The strength of this is that the protoss is kept afraid (as long as you stay active with the lings) so he won't want to move out. If he tries to shark, lings will come in and kill his nexus or workers etc.
Thats very hard to do while staying on top of your macro so the build is not anywhere near as easy to pull off as roach hydra.
And its so sad to see all lings disappear to 2 storms TT especially when you have over 100

[TheTinyOne]

This is a very good strat because the mineral will surely stack up thus makes it easier to expand. Also, this strat don't need that many baneling because it explode right in the middle of the forces. I recon, usually its a 90% win once this pull off. Tho, it's not easy to engage the ball - zergling and overlord gotto engage at the same time to minimize casualty.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Meatex

This was my standard ZvP build until I started encountering protoss that could make HT
Very nice write but missed that point. HT's will melt lings but I find they don't do enough damage quick enough to banelings at least once you have 3,3
I don't think its as weak as you say to forge fe into stargate at least if you go 6 min 3rd. and extra queens are always good because usually every expo after the 2nd you want to add a macro hatch with it

I have tried playing around with keeping the drones on gas and going for armor first (which I believe takes longer) But usually I will takes guys of of gas at 100 and leave one guy on. Evo at 64 gas which will pop exactly when you have 100 - then baneling nest at 50 gas then 2 guys back on gas. Lair at 100 then grab the 5 remaining gas.
The benefits to this is faster econ (the third will go down at around the 6 min mark) but at the sacrifice of fastest +1 armor. Its also weak to zealot heavy gateway push because you don't have enough banelings in time because of delayed gases at 2nd and 3rd.
This is fine if he is 3 gate expanding or forge FE but other more aggressive builds will cause problems.
If the protoss does a 1 base stargate opening he can deny the third because most maps don't have nearby third.

I usually skip infestors and go for insane amount of banelings and lings with broodlords. though its situational as you can't defend lots of spread out bases with this
you need spines to defend drop harass and control his ball with insane number of lings and blings

The reason this style is good is because its not AS vulnerable to good force fields. Of course the toss can FF you but you can pull what you have left back and reinforce or drop on him. But the key is constant harass with lings and banelings via any method you can. You need insanely good multi tasking ands high APM for this style to work at higher levels where the toss will have good FF

Anyway good write up

Suggestions to add should talk about threat of HT
Also the need to harass and deny expansions
And lastly you have to know when to engage and when to counter. The strength of this is that the protoss is kept afraid (as long as you stay active with the lings) so he won't want to move out. If he tries to shark, lings will come in and kill his nexus or workers etc.
Thats very hard to do while staying on top of your macro so the build is not anywhere near as easy to pull off as roach hydra.
And its so sad to see all lings disappear to 2 storms TT especially when you have over 100

Just want to respond to some of the ideas you put forth

High templar owning lings/infestors with storms
You pretty much have to try to get banes connecting before the high templar are able to kill anything. So basically, send your overlords over their army first. The tradeoff for having a lot of high templar and archon/zealot is they wont have anything to kill the overlords efficiently. If they go for high templar and blink stalker, that can make it different, but they will generally be spending a lot of gas on high templar, making there be less anti air, and more zealots. Once you kill the sentries, high templar and zealots with the banelings, don't engage in a choke and you'll win. So basically remax after suiciding the banelings, and just wait while getting more bases. If they try to get more zealots/high templar/sentries, suicide more banelings in again with overlord drops. It can be useful to have 2-3 extra queens to heal your overlords that are doing the bane drops for the 2nd/3rd runs.

A different though is that Infestors outrange high templar, so you can keep fungalling them, or neural a high temp and start doing feedback on other high templar. Although, I think neurals dont actually outrange them, only fungals do. I only recommend this in a wide open space, though, as they should be dropping storms regardless. Only do this if you can remax quickly as well.

Skipping infestors for broodlords
I really don't like this idea, because you generally need something before broodlords, mutas or infestors. Why? Because the protoss might just kill you before you manage to get your broodlords out. Sure, if they are going stargate or collossus heavy, get a spire and corruptors out with the ling/bane, and ensure they don't reduce you to below 4base. But if they go straight to high templar, it would be a lot harder to hold off the pushes.

Another thing to consider is that broodlords will slow the mobility of your army significantly, which is one of the real strengths of the style, as it allows you to choose when an engagement will occur. With broodlords, you might not be able to always engage when you want to.

Originally Posted by TheTinyOne

This is a very good strat because the mineral will surely stack up thus makes it easier to expand. Also, this strat don't need that many baneling because it explode right in the middle of the forces. I recon, usually its a 90% win once this pull off. Tho, it's not easy to engage the ball - zergling and overlord gotto engage at the same time to minimize casualty.

I was only going to respond to meatex, but then read your post without just skimming over it.

Not getting many banelings
No, you need a lot of banelings. Even if you have banelings left over afterwards, you should be using banelings so much that it'll make your eyes water. Its pretty much the whole point of the build, that you trade banelings in, cost-effectively, while having a huge economy. Then repeat. If you don't have enough banes and lose a single engagement as a result, you can sometimes end up losing the entire game due to the fact you've sacrificed an army and the re-maxed army might not be able to stop your opponent, if you just engage the same way.

Basically, get more banes than you need (applies for infestors too), just in case you would have ended up not winning an engagement.

[Meatex]

well if played well I have 3,3 upgrades and broodlords out at 15 minutes
and on maps like typhon and metal the mobility isn't a problem
I will also use it when the protoss is being defensive, i will have my mass ling baneling keeping a contain and seige his natural with broodlords to force him to come out where i want him so my banelings can asplode them ^^

Storms do a lot of damage to overlords as well and just a few stalkers can can take out the overlords though it depends on positioning. Out in the open yes. But on a map full of chokes its doesn't work as well. Also if you try a runby into the natural and 1 HT on high ground takes out all your lings then TT
HT's will be towards the back of the wall protected by gateway army and coll maybe void rays so not sure if you could defend infestors to fungal the HT
But regardless BL are another option that work very well if you have harassed successfully as the protoss should be playing quite defensive trying to make sure his third and forth get up then you siege him with BL force his army out into the open where you slam your 100 banelings into him :P

[Eldrid]

Archons make this strat useless. Please show me a decent toss using archons who loses to this ...

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

Archons make this strat useless. Please show me a decent toss using archons who loses to this ...

Its not the archons that matter, its everything else. The high templar, zealots and sentries disintegrate to the banelings, leaving the lings to clean up whatever is left, including archons. You want to see a decent toss using archons that loses to this? Check out the VOD, or some of aquanda's ZvP replays.

[maximusPrime]

I hope this doesn't start becoming more regularly used by zerg's...my FF's are my most useful tool against them and if they start working against me it will be worrying.

Not specifically referring to this exact build but I definitely think that baneling drops need to be more regularly used in ZvP. It's not all that often that they happen to me but when they are done correctly it is a major pain in the ass. When protoss get their colossus death ball going and have all their units clumped together, a few banelings dropped in the middle and you're in some serious trouble.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

Archons make this strat useless. Please show me a decent toss using archons who loses to this ...

dont worry guys just mass archon ez win

I see that strategy here has rather low standards. Not only does it take significant time to build up archon numbers, they can be neuraled.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Xeen

I see that strategy here has rather low standards.

I'd post this on TL.net, but I've been trolled enough from the strategy forums already over there.

Hint: Look at my avatar

[SLCN.NXZ]

I use to use this style ALL the time way back when aquanda featured it on 12 weeks. Morrow's version seems much more refined but I would definitely prefer the 6 min third (or take your third when he takes his nat) over the 8-9 min third that Morrow seems to favor. I slowly stopped doing this build when after watching sheth play his similar style except with slower upgrades but roaches to deal with 6 gates. Basically he went for the really fast 3rd makes ridiculous amounts of drones with just enough roaches out in time to defend. Meanwhile hes getting roach speed/burrow and/+1 ranged.

This leads to a ling bane drop style only with a much stronger 6 gate defense and an army that in general has more hp and deals with things like archons and storms a bit better. That's the style I've been using alot currently but after reading this and watching some of MorroW's zvp reps from MLG, I wanted to try ling/bane out again.

After a couple of games I have a couple of questions.

If the hatch gets blocked would a build like 14gas/14pool or 11 pool/18 hatch have a stronger economy due to the inability to get pylon blocked?

If your opponent is 6 gating the response is to rush out the baneling drops and just force him to waste ff's using your banes until they come up?

And finally could adding roaches for a stronger backbone to the army (albeit less offensive potential) a stronger choice for the midgame? (Ultras take over once you reach hive)


Thanks for the great writeup!!

[Satu]

Originally Posted by NXZ

I use to use this style ALL the time way back when aquanda featured it on 12 weeks. Morrow's version seems much more refined but I would definitely prefer the 6 min third (or take your third when he takes his nat) over the 8-9 min third that Morrow seems to favor. I slowly stopped doing this build when after watching sheth play his similar style except with slower upgrades but roaches to deal with 6 gates. Basically he went for the really fast 3rd makes ridiculous amounts of drones with just enough roaches out in time to defend. Meanwhile hes getting roach speed/burrow and/+1 ranged.

This leads to a ling bane drop style only with a much stronger 6 gate defense and an army that in general has more hp and deals with things like archons and storms a bit better. That's the style I've been using alot currently but after reading this and watching some of MorroW's zvp reps from MLG, I wanted to try ling/bane out again.

After a couple of games I have a couple of questions.

If the hatch gets blocked would a build like 14gas/14pool or 11 pool/18 hatch have a stronger economy due to the inability to get pylon blocked?

If your opponent is 6 gating the response is to rush out the baneling drops and just force him to waste ff's using your banes until they come up?

And finally could adding roaches for a stronger backbone to the army (albeit less offensive potential) a stronger choice for the midgame? (Ultras take over once you reach hive)


Thanks for the great writeup!!

1. The build is more economic than 14g14p and 11p18hatch, its kinda logical. Comparing to 14g14p, you're not getting the gas until later with this build, and you get the hatchery at the same tie. Thus more minerals and a better economy. Comparing to 11p18hatch, you get more drones u\out before the hatch goes down, so you should have more minerals.

2. The idea is usually to go bane drops with a large speedling support group, but I've been tossing ideas around in my head on whether it actually works well, after hitting masters. MorroW likes to get about six spines, but you cant rely on spines when you're taking a third. So you CAN add roaches or hydras, I suppose. Im seriously considering adding hydras, so its hydra ling. The massive problem I see vs 6gate atm, is that they can reproduce their food count and army efficiency faster than what the zerg can, due to the banes constantly being sacrificed. Hydra/ling would just be waaaaaay more cost efficient, although upgraded roaches would probably be a safer option. Which brings me to the next point.

3. It depends entirely on the situation. If my opponent opens stargate off forge FE, I like to get a spire and muta/corruptor out. Then I transition into muta/ling and kill his army based off my lings tanking and the mutas doing splash damage. 6gate you can have a different response to again, and thus a different midgame. If they play a bit more straight up, and go for a fast 3rd, just mass expansions and drones, I make an entirely ling/bane force with bane drops. I then proceed to do bane drops at each of their bases all at the same time when 2/2 for the ling/bane kicks in. So basically, at the moment, I go into midgame with a style that depends on what they do, which really shouldn't be that reliable of a strategy. Going roaches every time allows you to be more prepared for whatever they throw at you, whereas lingbane is starting to seem a bit more situational, the way I see it. Although, ling bane CAN work in every scenario, it can just be hard to make it work.

[ZergGirl]

You are all so crazy with your ZvP and I want to slap you in the face for it D;

[PuppetMaster557]

TLDR, Would not view again.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Constructive...
	SLCN.NXZ:	Thanks for the very helpful post, good sir. I hope you have a nice day giving your incredibly constructice advice around the forums.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by ZergGirl

You are all so crazy with your ZvP and I want to slap you in the face for it D;

Then by all means grace us with YOUR ZvP please