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**|Erasmus|** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 10:18 AM

General

Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.

PROTOSS

Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.

Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.

The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.

Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.

Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.

TERRAN

Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.

Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.

Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.

ZERG

Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.

Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.

Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Ascel · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 10:45 AM

Eh Seems alright. Not sure why they did a few things but would like to see how it plays out.

I do think that the Hellion Nerf is because of the sudden switch the Meta game, But I dunno =\

Snod · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 10:53 AM

I actually quite like the changes coming in, they aren't a massive nerf hit on anything, just small tweaks to hopefully make things smoother.

Satu · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 10:57 AM

It all looks good! ;D

NvPinder · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).

r0cKy · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

quoted for effect

souljah · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 11:10 AM

mmm infestor damage nerfed, seems to be better for P v Z considering that 6 infestors can kill your whole protoss army....

nothing has been changed that will affect the terran 1/1/1 though...

TAScarecrow · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 4:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souljah

nothing has been changed that will affect the terran 1/1/1 though...

....Immortal range helps snipe tanks
- 5 seconds on banshees means toss can delay robo slightly plus just play generally a little greedier cause everything comes later and the probe scout gets a little more info.
- 5 seconds on the push timing might mean an extra warp in, it's all gonna add up

Amazing patch barring the blink nerf which I didn't think was breaking any mu's and at least gave PvP some variety. We needed this so badly, maybe a SEA toss will finally win an esl cup!

**TAEdgE** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 11:13 AM

WOW, these changes are so perfect. WHERE IS MY HYDRALISK SPEED THOUGH (If immortals are buffed T_T)

**Maynarde** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 11:14 AM

This is awesome

I have no problem with any of those changes, even though my beloved infestor and it's beloved fungal got nerfed. Time to make ultras!

TAXanT · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 11:17 AM

Where's the carrier buff at?

Doctor · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 12:13 PM

+ [Bug Fixes] +

SkyBreaker Edit: I've put the wall of text into a spoiler-tag.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	Don't just paste a huge wall of text like that!
	Nemo:	It was usefull for me. Just use header and list BB code to make it more pleasant to read

Next_rim · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 12:27 PM

PROTOSS

Quote:

Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.

Good robo pvp buff, won't affect other match ups that much.

Quote:

Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.

The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.

I suppose delay in cloak happens only when it pops from nexus, negligible change. Acceleration buff was long awaited, at least mommaship can be somewhat microed now.

Quote:

Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.

Don't get it. Are they trying to delay 3-gate TC blink in PvP? Because fast blink won't be affected that much.

Quote:

Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.

Awesome. Although i'd prefer deployment speed buff.

Quote:

Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.

What's this one about? Tanks? 4wg?

Quote:

Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.

So, hellion now 3-shots workers w/o upgrades? Used to be 24 damage, now it's 19.

Sola · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:10 PM

I like all the changes atm. Even the infestor change doesn't seem that bad. I just hope they make replays shareable between friends. So frustrating that isn't in yet.

Ascel · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:15 PM

Will Terran still do the Hellion play they have come to love now?

Next_rim · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:17 PM

Quote:

Will Terran still do the Hellion play they have come to love now?

They will just add one more hellion, nothing to worry about.

NvJazBas · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:22 PM

Nestea: AS I HAVE PLANNED! Well done MVP

MVP: ???????????????????????

Quick Comments

nard:

TCPLemminks · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:24 PM

I wanna say what I said in chat about the ramp vision, though I'm not really sure if I am correct.

In my opinion this is very disadvantageous to protoss and zerg. From what I understand, this means that units on the ramps will have 1 less vision range. Therefore stalker or zergling pokes up the ramp will see less. This nerfs one of the only ways that a protoss or zerg can scout after a wall-in.

It doesn't really help with PvP 4gate either, since you don't need to look that far into the base to warp in zealots in the high ground if you have a plyon near the ramp.

Either way I have no idea why they are thinking to implement this change. Then again this could be Blizzard trying to balance out the fact that you now have more time to scout a terran with the increased racks build time, assuming you get into their base before they wall off.

Quick Comments

	NvJazBas:	its ok though cause 11/11 is so much less stronger now. I'm just happy with the rax nerf
	psygoh:	Good point

Ascel · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemminks

I wanna say what I said in chat about the ramp vision, though I'm not really sure if I am correct.

In my opinion this is very disadvantageous to protoss and zerg. From what I understand, this means that units on the ramps will have 1 less vision range. Therefore stalker or zergling pokes up the ramp will see less. This nerfs one of the only ways that a protoss or zerg can scout after a wall-in.

It doesn't really help with PvP 4gate either, since you don't need to look that far into the base to warp in zealots in the high ground if you have a plyon near the ramp.

Either way I have no idea why they are thinking to implement this change. Then again this could be Blizzard trying to balance out the fact that you now have more time to scout a terran with the increased racks build time, assuming you get into their base before they wall off.

I thought it was saying that form the Low Ground You can see 1 less up the Ramp, in some cases i have seen stalker been able to Blink onto the High Ground from the Low ground without Vision.

TCPLemminks · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic

I thought it was saying that form the Low Ground You can see 1 less up the Ramp, in some cases i have seen stalker been able to Blink onto the High Ground from the Low ground without Vision.

This is actually what I'm not sure of, whether it is low ground to high ground vision for units on ramp to high ground. Though I'm pretty sure that low ground doesn't have any vision of high ground, so it should be ramp to high ground vision. I'll wait until Blizzard or someone here clarifies this.
Also it's impossible to blink without vision, they probably blinked onto the ramp or had an obs somewhere.

Ascel · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemminks

This is actually what I'm not sure of, whether it is low ground to high ground vision for units on ramp to high ground. Though I'm pretty sure that low ground doesn't have any vision of high ground, so it should be ramp to high ground vision. I'll wait until Blizzard or someone here clarifies this.
Also it's impossible to blink without vision, they probably blinked onto the ramp or had an obs somewhere.

Can't be 100% sure, But from what I could tell they Blinked onto the little Lip at the end of the ramp which puts them on the high ground.

TCPLemminks · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 1:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic

Can't be 100% sure, But from what I could tell they Blinked onto the little Lip at the end of the ramp which puts them on the high ground.

Yeah then that actually still counts as the ramp, so they're not on the high ground. Some of them may end up on the high ground because they were grouped together though.

HuT · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:05 PM

Barracks nerf and Blue-flame nerf.. cool Blizz. **** with the 12 rax 15 orbital timings and then nerf Hellion back into oblivion.. Marine Tank will be back for TvT I feel..

**iM tgun** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nGenHuT

Barracks nerf and Blue-flame nerf.. cool Blizz. **** with the 12 rax 15 orbital timings and then nerf Hellion back into oblivion.. Marine Tank will be back for TvT I feel..

A 5-damage change to one of the fastest-producing mineral dumps that is able to soak more tank shots than bio could imagine is going to remove them from the matchup? They'll still be amazing for soaking damage and harass; you just have to control them a little better now (not a personal dig; just a general statement).

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

HuT · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 3:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgun

A 5-damage change to one of the fastest-producing mineral dumps that is able to soak more tank shots than bio could imagine is going to remove them from the matchup? They'll still be amazing for soaking damage and harass; you just have to control them a little better now (not a personal dig; just a general statement).

When you consider how quickly you can mass marines rather than hellions due to the spammable nature of barracks, combined with the numerous bio timings you can abuse against a meching player, you'll be surprised how much that extra damage will be missed.

AxSGRiM · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:14 PM

So happy about the Infestor and T nerf

fur · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:24 PM

Weakers Hellions and Stronger immortals. Thx for making Metal even less viable blizz.

And seriously, rax time increased? Are bunker rushes really THAT hard to hold?

Fungal nerf very necessary tho.

Daboo · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:49 PM

Is the ptr up? It doesnt even start up for me, no message or error.

Snod · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daboo

Is the ptr up? It doesnt even start up for me, no message or error.

I don't think it's up right now no.

Aean(: · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:54 PM

"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes." NO APM SPAAMZ? now everyone will see the hideous skills i possess

**TAEdgE** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 2:58 PM

Took a year for drones to finally have better AI. woo!

Quick Comments

Champi:

maybe next year hydras will get speed? :D

SuperHero · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 3:02 PM

Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.

A nice buff considering that in a lot of battles the immortals are stuck in the back lines not doing anything. also they are easily taken down by ghosts + marine focus fire.

Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.

Blink stalkers are incredibly powerful. this may push back the timing slightly to help defend against them.

Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.

This will allow terran to squeeze in 1 more SCV before the orbital command needs to be transformed. also will delay 2rax obviously.

Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.

With the current change in metagame this was needed but is still dissapointing to see since i use BFH so much.

Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).

YAY. fungal growth is so damn good. SO GOOD and its nice to see this change.

Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.

Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.

very nice buff to zerg scouting ability since that was a very prominant complaint from a lot of zerg players.

Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.

ehhhh, im not sure if this will make them favourable over broodlords as the zerg T3 tech of choice. but still a nice buff.

PantlessPete · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 3:10 PM

As much as I screamed YES! when I saw the hellion nerf, this is what really got me happy.

"Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes."

Seriously, how many times has that marine with the bunker rush killed more drones than he should of simply because attacks miss? Really, go try it out, even on a scouting probe in your base. Makes me so angry to see the drone stop, go through the attack animation and the bloody health bar doesn't move at all. Then it takes another couple of seconds to catch up again.

Oh, and probes dancing at your natural? Same deal, thankyou blizzard!

**SkyBreaker** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 3:35 PM

These changes look pretty good; I'm interested to see how they play out when they go live. I have struggled a lot as of late in regards to infestors so I can't say I'm not pleased to see a change in that regard. I'm not sure if I'm the only one; but I'm curious to see if the change to the shield-value of the warp prisms will perhaps see drops a more common thing from Protoss (as I absolutely love them, haha).

Looking forward to it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maynarde

This is awesome

I have no problem with any of those changes, even though my beloved infestor and it's beloved fungal got nerfed. Time to make ultras!

+ [My face when I read the change to infestors...] +

Jkjk,

you May ^-^

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Thank you for spoiling, your face is scary.

[TA]LoSt · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 3:53 PM

Best and most balanced patch to date IMO.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Agreed.

Next_rim · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 4:48 PM

People keep saying it's fake.

Any thoughts?)

**SkyBreaker** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next_rim

People keep saying it's fake.

Any thoughts?)

It's practically impossible for the patch notes to be fake considering they're posted on the Battle.net forums by a community manager; while things do change before a patch goes live I'm quite sure this is how things will look when they're first applied to the PTR/when the PTR is made available.

cruxis · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 4:56 PM

Ok, just went through the thread, and there has been no discussion on the contaminate nerf.

What would bring about this nerf? The only time I see it used is if the scouting OS somehow manages to scout the base without being killed, then a few minutes later another scout with a contaminate. So they're nerfing a spell that is barely used as is, in the hopes it'll get used even less? Why have it in the game?

If it's to balance out the reduced morph cost, then I don't think it should be 125. It's not like you can just morph heaps then fly in and contaminate, they still have to wait for that first contaminate.

Stupidest nerf I think.

**Dox** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 9:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruxis

Ok, just went through the thread, and there has been no discussion on the contaminate nerf.

What would bring about this nerf?

I think it has something to do with Zerg having the cheapest, fastest mobile detection unit in the game now (don't factor in the inital overlord cost because you're always guaranteed to be making them anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

so maybe in TvT it has any application? I dunno. I'm really skeptical about the Seeker missile although I am ready to be convinced if Terrans can show consistent successful application of it.

This makes it so Vikings can no longer outrun Seeker Missiles. I'm guessing the objective here is to provide an avenue for air dominance to be re-gained in mirror match-ups, since once you've got it, it's very hard to lose it (unless you fly into a bunch of Thors or something.)

SlayerS are gonna bring the Seeker Missile into conventional play, you just watch.

Also noticed some comments in chat about Guardian Shield, and people saying, "I thought it was only supposed to block projectiles?"
That's actually the description of Point Defense Drone. :P

aLtShortizz · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 5:32 PM

Great patch IMO.

Infestor was a little too OP in ZVP i reckon and nerfing it while boosting the Ultra seems like a decent trade. I would definitely use Ling infestor Ultra alot more when the patch comes through. Overseer change is decent enough, reducing the Gas cost to encourage more usage while also adding extra energy required for contaminate is a fair trade too.

5 Seconds more on the barrack would mean like what, 1.2 marine lesser for the bunker rush? Hellion nerf is expected, lets not turn every damn TvX into a my hellions kill ur mineral line, i win!

Its also good to see Protoss getting a little bit of buffed with the immortal and Warp prism, ive always though these 2 units are underappreciated and often got overshadowed by Colossi and HT.

Lastly, i have to agree with Edge and Avelestar, Fixing the drone AI is FREAKING AWESOME!

iM yang · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 5:42 PM

Can't find anything wrong with these patch notes. Seems like some good changes!

Cyanide · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 6:02 PM

Seems pretty balanced overall. But don't understand the blink upgrade time increase.

ROOT`iaguz · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 6:19 PM

Rax change: makes 0 sense. Ta blizz.

Hellion change: I'm ok with this. I like marine/tank in TvT and I hope this nerf steers it back in that direction. Currently my TvT seems more of a contest on who can slip a drop into the other guys base first then the positional fun of marine/tank. I didn't care for blue flames in TvP unless I was messing around and wanted all of Lights probes to burn so w/e, and they still kill lings in 2 shots so they're main role in TvZ is there. An undefended drone line is still going to ******* hurt for Zerg even with 50% more shots required. So yea, I'm ok with this one.

Seeker missile: There are a few things I'm a bit grumble-y about this one. First, SM's are hard to deploy in a game due to price and them jostling with tanks and nukes for the role of WMD. Second, even with the energy upgrade it takes 50 energy for it to come online. A tank is a tank once "FUELED UP, READY TO GO!". Third, the only things it outran before were things that typically had loads of hp and could just soak it up (bc's, thors, broodlords, motherships, maybe carriers). Third, you still cannot use it vs protoss (feedback) and it's pointless against Zerg (tanks do it better vs ground and mutas can easily outrun it), so maybe in TvT it has any application? I dunno. I'm really skeptical about the Seeker missile although I am ready to be convinced if Terrans can show consistent successful application of it.

VISION THINGY:

The way I'm interpreting this is it nerfs PvP's warp up on the ramp when you're trying to defend a 4gate. Sounds totally fair. You can still get to the top of a ramp and look around and see everything with a zergling or w/e because you're at the top of the ramp so you have all your vision. And generally I'm not trying to get up ramps unless I have a flying unit with me (usually) so I think I'm ok here. I think?

ZERG:

Ultras: Broods still generally the better choice in ZvT as a unit. More uses, works better with infestors, demands specific counters and they completely negate tanks whereas ultras don't make 33% of your opponent's army value almost entirely worthless. BUT what I do see possible is the b-lord into ultra switch after you've banked up a ton of money. Run all your broodlords in, lose it all and make 200/200 ultra/ling to smash the softened up terran army. But the only time this works is in a really poor game state for the terran (ie, 200/200 and floating) so I guess it just exemplifies that aspect of TvZ

Fungal: I was happy until I did some math and realized that it takes 8 seconds instead of 6 for my marines to die. Thorzain pointed out that it means it takes an extra fungal to kill vikings which I suppose is kind of nice but fungal growth is still functionally the same ability; ie, marine annihilator.
I guess this is mostly for ZvP which makes sense since as I understand it Protoss are having a ton of trouble with this matchup.

PROTOSS

Immortal range 6: Saw this one coming tbh. Immortal kinda sucks, needs buff to remain relevant. What I'm concerned are PvT aggresive 3 gate robo immortal timings. They used to be kinda good and if you've got enough ff's to negate bunkers then they can be insane (thank christ relatively rare).

Blink timing: So yay, one PvT opening gets pretty much removed to be replaced with two more.

Warp Prism: Someone is going to break this and I'm going to be upset about it! I always thought that the tradeoff to the warp prism being shit was this wonderful combination of units that protoss could get at 200/200 that were virtually unstoppable by terran. Now they also get to drop stuff. Fortunately what they can drop isn't too scary (templar yes but very expensive/risky for them to do it but I'm still kinda grumble-y about this one too).

Quick Comments

	iM tgun:	Pretty good writeup.
	Nemo:	+1

Stallion · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 7:21 PM

i like the ptr notes

dropship buff

immortal buff was unneeded but il take it

blink research time i can dig ^^ hunter seeker missle is awesome fully looking forward to that

zerg buff yet infestor tweak awesome bout time blizzard patched the game well

xGKingdelete · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 7:36 PM

i like these changes, especially the mothership one. haven't seen one of them in ages

"Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes."

does this mean everyone's going to have around 100 apm now?

Estancia · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 7:34 PM

They fixed the drone AI, now its time to nerf their hp regen rate.

Anyone got any idea where the hell the mothership accleration buff came from?? From what I remember no one actually seemed to care about them whether they were buffed or nerfed (after the archon toilet nerf)

Starcraftmazter · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 7:35 PM

If Blizzard doesn't want terran to win games, may as well just remove it as a race.

**cure** · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 8:36 PM

Mmmm, loving the changes !

ToRPandarine · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 8:55 PM

yay! no more 2 shotting everything! boo! for not being able to 2 shot things!

lol

other than that, I'm not sure how does the +5 build time affects us terrans but I do know it'll add +5 to everything...doesn't that make us a little bit suspectible to certain builds? *cough*unscouted 6 pool*cough*

(i know i know, 6 pool easy defend. hv u ever tried to defend one whn there's a hole in ur wall or failed to scout it?)

regarding the protoss: not so much of an issue tho, the additional shields on the warp prism worries me...

regarding the zerg: w00t! infestors slightly nerfed (prefer to see infested terrans energy cost go up but meh, ill take what's given) other than that, not so much of an issue other than the fact you can have ULTRAS in your base...lol..

Eldrid · Thu, 25th-Aug-2011, 9:32 PM

i really like the ultra buff. nothing worse than being ahead but not being able to break a mech line and throwing away your army, remaxing instantly on 3/5 ultra, to die before they hatch ... -_- (or lose half your base and have them slowly come into your main from all your different hatches - lame!). Smart by blizz.

EveMassacrisM · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 2:23 AM

Took long enough for Blizzard to realize an unit that costs only minerals being able to 2shot multiple workers is retarded.

Other changes are pretty meh.

mGMUSE · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 5:54 AM

don't like the changes tbh, agree with what iaguz has posted

Snod · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 8:31 AM

They will most likely be refined more on the PTR, if it turns out that Barracks build increase is too much; they will change it.

If hellions now super suck, they will change it.

However I for one love the changes for Immortals and Warp Prisms... Immortal drop with warped in Zealots anyone?

ETL.Santi · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 9:45 AM

Hopefully the delay for marines and buff for inmortals dont come into the game.

Snod · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santi

Hopefully the delay for marines and buff for inmortals dont come into the game.

What? Immortals actually need the +1 range buff. And the barracks timing change will be barely noticable unless you are going for a early game rush. 5 game second turns into 3 IRL seconds... unless you are doing something so cheesy that you will lose because your opponent had 3 extra seconds... it wont matter.

souljah · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 10:16 AM

Totally loving this comment on TeamLiquid...

"How is the no gas FE into 3 other naked rax going to hold against 3 gate robo? "

"I don't see many terrans hold that kind of pressure, especially with the immortal range buff. That is what worries me the most with the barracks nerf, the timings are already as close at it is."

They neglect the fact that it is a fast expand against a semi-allin =.= are terrans supposed to hold a FE against all kinds of all-ins without difficulty? 0o

Digby · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 10:44 AM

I for one, believe that the rax "nerf" will not be included in the final release of the patch, it doesn't really make any sense, 12 rax 15 orbital will have scv production halted for 5 secs, the festor nerf is awesome, the hellion nerf... was neccessary to a degree, the toss buffs will probably mean more creative plays by protoss in pvp as well as other match ups, with the unused units, mships warp prisms being buffed, overall very nice

**Dox** · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digby

I for one, believe that the rax "nerf" will not be included in the final release of the patch, it doesn't really make any sense, 12 rax 15 orbital will have scv production halted for 5 secs, the festor nerf is awesome, the hellion nerf... was neccessary to a degree, the toss buffs will probably mean more creative plays by protoss in pvp as well as other match ups, with the unused units, mships warp prisms being buffed, overall very nice

Just FYI - 16OC has been very popular for several months now. There are a lot of top players who have been doing this every game, since you can actually squeeze 7 seconds of SCV production out before the Barracks completes. So this means you can actually smoothly get the 16th SCV out rather than leaving your CC idle for a while.

Halstrom · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:03 AM

Just my thoughts....

Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.
Not sure what to make of this yet. It will hurt P and Z the most I think, as there are windows where they only have ramp scouting to scout. This change will do a couple of things I think. It will force units further up the ramp to get good vision, whereas now there is sometimes a sweetspot where the scout can get vision but is out of a Marines range for example. Second, it will likely prevent a ramp scout from seeing buildings behind the wall in. Not sure how it will affect attacks on wall ins though. This one is a wait and see though.

PROTOSS

Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
Really needed to make this unit relevant. Interestingly Blizz designed the Immortal with the intent of making it a front row tanking unit. Looks like they have abandoned that.

Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.
Meh. Might save it in some rare situations. Otherwise meh.

The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.
Again meh. Nice to alleviate lag, but not really game impacting.

Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
Interesting. Kills the blink stalker timing push a little and might make a strat shift harder for P. Also makes P a little less harrassy in early game against Z, and might make Roach play a little more popular early. Another wait and see here

Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.
Wow....big change. Gotta say I've been expecting this. A definite needed change to make this unit viable widely. PvP and PvZ will likely see significant drop play now IMHO. T will be forced to be wary of it too, but turrets and vikings should deter a little (though vikings later in numbers). For some context, it will now take a single Viking 20 seconds to kill a Prism, or 4 Vikings 5 seconds. Might make way for a "Korean 4 gate robo", build a robo for the Prism, then just produce out of 4 gates. Within a second or two of deplying the Prism you could have 8 zealots on the ground (4 from the drop and 4 warp-ins). Then reinforce in waves of 4. Not as quick, but much more deadly.

TERRAN

Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
Not sure about this one. I don't think it kills a marine rush. I think it just makes it more all in. T might be able to get an early supply and ealier Rax/s for the same effect, but would suffer more of an eco hit. It will screw with the standard T opening as it is now though, and 5 seconds isn't enough time to sneak in another SCV. Not sure what else this really achieves aside from annoying Terran plays TBH.

Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
I think Blind Betty saw this one coming from a mile away. As a T I'm dissappointed, but conceed that it was needed. Having said that, I'm not sure what this changes (unless I'm missing something, which is entirly possible). BF Hellions will still do 19 damage a hit to workers, so 3 will still 1 shot a worker right? Sure, the damage reduction will mean less overall collatoral damage, but BF hellion drops will still work.

Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
Really?!? This should make mainstream T rush to Seekers now!!! /endSarcasm

ZERG

Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
Booyaa......Blizz are on the money with this one. Still, would like to have seen FG reduced to just leave marines in the deep red and not kill them outrite. Even psi-storms give T the chance to save units. I wonder how this will affect Z vs. mass blink stalker though?

Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is a decent change. IMHO this is a 50% reduction in cost (minerals are almost a non-factor at the stage of the game at which Z can mass overseers). Twice the fast scouting. Twice the detection. Twice the changlings. Twice the contaminate!!!

Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
My guess is that this is an attempt to prevent Z from getting mass overseer's and rolling in to contaminate a whole base at once. I can't really see what else this acheives, but then again my understanding of Zerg is pretty ordinary

Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Not sure what to make of this really. As already pointed out, Broodlords are a better choice. It's not like there is a concept of an Ultra rush either. They are a nasty follow up to Mutaling, but if a Z gets enough bases to contantly build Ultra's even at 70sec whoever he is playing is in trouble anyway. NFI here really......guess it's a wiat and see.

Insidious · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:14 AM

Where is the zealot "launch fireball" buff.... :| for shame blizard

noobinater · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Game Options
Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section.
Only allow friends to send me invites.
Only allow friends to send me chat messages.
Set status to Busy when playing a game.

Best update nobody has even mentioned.

Snod · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noobinater

Best update nobody has even mentioned.

Wait how am I going to be able to make myself feel awesome by spamming streamers now?!
Damnit Blizzard I hate you, ruin the game.

pikk0n · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:31 AM

Nooooo... how am I going to stalk other players now? There goes the after game BM into ignore strategy.... I hate that privacy patch. Bad move blizzard! I shall voice my disagreement by bming blizzard officials then ignoring them. Heh!

TcaTX · Fri, 26th-Aug-2011, 11:33 AM

PTR is up and running as of now.

Daboo · Sat, 27th-Aug-2011, 7:11 PM

One of the smaller but useful things I've noticed in the ptr: You dont need to go click on view profile to check a persons league, it shows the league next to the persons name on the score screen.

But the main multiplayer screen looks a little messy now, and it feels like redundant info.

**SkyBreaker** · Sat, 27th-Aug-2011, 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daboo

One of the smaller but useful things I've noticed in the ptr: You dont need to go click on view profile to check a persons league, it shows the league next to the persons name on the score screen.

I like the sound of this

simon · Sun, 28th-Aug-2011, 7:44 AM

not sure i like the immortal buff. i hope it doesnt make it past the ptr

TcaTX · Sun, 28th-Aug-2011, 7:58 AM

Not really that bad... I mean it will help a little... but if you insist on building immortals vs zerg.. as my poor foe found out... I just add a heap hydralisks to my roaches =P And clean shop with ling hydra afterwards!

NDG.Stitch · Wed, 31st-Aug-2011, 9:03 AM

Im not happy about BFH nerf.

SuperHero · Wed, 31st-Aug-2011, 4:06 PM

I wonder if they will implement anything in this patch that addresses the very powerful 1/1/1 banshee tank timing attack that is incredibly popular in TvP nowadays.

ill admit i have tried it out against several protoss players and have easily won regardless of what build they went. 4gate, 3gate robo, stargate etc etc etc.

many people say its just a powerful timing attack that the counter for hasnt been found yet but i dont know about that, it is incredibly difficult to stop. im sure the korean protoss experts (oGsMC comes to mind) will figure something out.

**Nemo** · Wed, 31st-Aug-2011, 6:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperHero

I wonder if they will implement anything in this patch that addresses the very powerful 1/1/1 banshee tank timing attack that is incredibly popular in TvP nowadays.

ill admit i have tried it out against several protoss players and have easily won regardless of what build they went. 4gate, 3gate robo, stargate etc etc etc.

many people say its just a powerful timing attack that the counter for hasnt been found yet but i dont know about that, it is incredibly difficult to stop. im sure the korean protoss experts (oGsMC comes to mind) will figure something out.

They know the problem : http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php...hlight=Insight but they are apparently waiting to see if there is no evolution in the metagame before acting.

Concerning balance, they seem to think the game is generally balanced but I think they want to tweak "intra-race balance". I mean so player begin to use more of that unit than another one that have been a bit "abused".

To do that they have to be sure each time they give a buff to a unit of a race they nerf another one.

For example, when they want more usage of Warp prism they nerf Blink research so

mobility isn't buffed too much.

[Troll On]With the exception of

that are just plain nerfed as usual

[Troll off]

More seriously I have the feeling that the new maps introduced in season 3 are more favorable to Terrans (as I heard

s and

whine about it) and the infestor nerf are in fact the Terran indirect buff.

I'm very interested in the new Missile speed. I have always found that that spell is fun to play and would like to use it more often without putting me behind because of my whim.

ToRPandarine · Wed, 31st-Aug-2011, 7:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

I'm very interested in the new Missile speed. I have always found that that spell is fun to play and would like to use it more often without putting me behind because of my whim.

I think you used that to take out a few of my banshees and vikings that day when we played 1v1. I fear the I see a T just mass spams seeker missiles XD

**Nemo** · Wed, 31st-Aug-2011, 9:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePandarine

I think you used that to take out a few of my banshees and vikings that day when we played 1v1. I fear the I see a T just mass spams seeker missiles XD

And then I lost with a bigger army.

I should have made PDD to keep air dominance instead, but Missiles are so fun, I prefer them.

Azure · Wed, 31st-Aug-2011, 9:40 PM

I hope we dont get 1 less vision up ramps it will hurt scouting at the start of the game.
specially on 4 player maps sometimes you just cant get your overlord into position in time to find out what they are doing.

even thou ultra build time is been reduced they still dont do well vs tanks mmm to really make them better then broodlords.

**|Erasmus|** · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 12:18 PM

Updated PTR notes: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

- Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

O_o.. I don't even play zerg, I hate the matchup, but that seems a little too harsh. It's the main use for the spell, anyway.

Tom · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Updated PTR notes: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1213111662

- Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

O_o.. I don't even play zerg, I hate the matchup, but that seems a little too harsh. It's the main use for the spell, anyway.

*insert heavenly music playing here*

Sorry about my manner, I am just so happy. I can make colossus again in PvZ! I will be crushed if this doesn't go through. Keep them coming Blizzard!

EveMassacrisM · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

What the f*** is with Blizzard seriously... Haven't they f***ed this game up enough already?

What are we gonna neural parasite now? Immortals ? So Colossi can walk 2 pixels over and 2shot the infestors ?

ProAnnn · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

What the f*** is with Blizzard seriously... Haven't they f***ed this game up enough already?

What are we gonna neural parasite now? Immortals ? So Colossi can walk 2 pixels over and 2shot the infestors ?

Back to mass collosi with voidrays!

FaDeHellfyre · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 1:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

What the f*** is with Blizzard seriously... Haven't they f***ed this game up enough already?

What are we gonna neural parasite now? Immortals ? So Colossi can walk 2 pixels over and 2shot the infestors ?

I'm more worried about Thors... Now how are they supposed to be countered? With their ground and air splash damage, and scv's ridiculous ability to repair them neural parasite was the only thing that zerg have that stopped them from being ridiculously overpowered... Now i think i'll dread seeing their lumbering walk across the battlefield.

Colossi can still be countered with a few corruptors, or even mutalisks. But Thors... they are going to be the real problem now.

And no ghost nerf sucks. Ghosts need to be nerfed.

Next_rim · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Infestor’s Neural Parasite can no longer target Massive units.

Lolwut? Me feels it has something to do with archons.

TAXanT · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 1:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Lolwut? Me feels it has something to do with archons.

Archons, Collosi.. who cares which one! lol

*dances*

NvRossi · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 1:50 PM

mass them thors

**Nemo** · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 2:21 PM

We even might see the return of the Battle Cruiser in TvZ and by consequence the return of the Hydra too. That's 2 units that have completely disappeared from the MU. That would be a good thing for this.

pikk0n · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 2:35 PM

???? Why would you not just decrease the range??? I don't get this complete nerf.... It's not like the old sc1 days where mind control used to be a permanent ability.... :S

HuT · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 2:47 PM

Hellion / Thor / BC.

Turtle 20 mins on 3 base, roll out, gg, sup?

**Nemo** · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 4:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nGenHuT

Hellion / Thor / BC.

Turtle 20 mins on 3 base, roll out, gg, sup?

I think Thors don't do well enough against Corruptors and don't do well at all against Broodlords. Don't you think Corruptor (with their corrupt ability) + Broodlord would prevail against this compo ? We should add Vikings that are owned by Infestors. On the paper it seems quite an rich MU like that.

fur · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 2:48 PM

w00t so happy. With the blue flame nerf what was going to happen to my poor mech?

And Neural IS a bit broken as anyone who has had their army MCed can attest too.

ToRPandarine · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 3:08 PM

mech play still viable!! RAWR!! and BC's too!

*cries in tears of joy* Thors, BC, hellion, tank

pikk0n · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 3:23 PM

note to self. Helion/Thor/BC.

3 bases only. No need to bother with the 4th or 5th base.

No micro needed. Thanks, Hut.

souljah · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 3:39 PM

Note to infestors : stay AWAY from my archons and colossus, and i mean beyond-9-range AWAY

NvRossi · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 4:53 PM

mass thors do fine against broodlords, helions can be right clicked on thors to be on broodling duty if needed

**Nemo** · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 5:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TARossi

mass thors do fine against broodlords, helions can be right clicked on thors to be on broodling duty if needed

I never seen it on stream I watched but if you say so, I believe you. Then indeed Mech play on 2 or 3 base would be very hard to stop for zerg.

Eldrid · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 4:57 PM

I have nfi how to beat Thor helion scv 2-3 base shenanigans anymore.

Or the BC / viking army composition

I feel this makes infestors weaker than they've ever been at any point ever...

I'm sure blizzard have the data to make this change but .... This is one confused Zerg. Now I have to start trying to kill thors without infestors, the only way to do this is if I have 3x the economy or (risky) base trade

Let's see!

[TA]LoSt · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 5:04 PM

Won't go through IMO

Fadey · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 5:34 PM

hope it does

LennX · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 6:05 PM

I prefer if they nerfed NP range instead. But oh well time to enjoy thor/hellions on the PTR when I have the time

Xenomorph · Fri, 9th-Sep-2011, 6:38 PM

Why wouldn't they just nerf the amount of time that u can NP massive units instead of making it impossible...

Azure · Sat, 10th-Sep-2011, 3:28 AM

looking to be one of the best patches to date.

crAzerk · Sat, 10th-Sep-2011, 10:45 AM

As many has mentioned, this neural change would make mass Thors virtually unstoppable as Zerg.
Broodlords were mentioned, but im pretty sure they dont come out in time vs those 2 base timing Thor pushes that I've suffered before

Really hoping this neural change doesn't go through!

fur · Sat, 10th-Sep-2011, 11:48 AM

My heart is breaking already for the poor zergies that wont be able to just neural parasite half an army while spamming fungal.

Looking forward to the QQ

EveVendetta · Sat, 10th-Sep-2011, 12:56 PM

I don't know why so many people are complaining about Terran's 1-1-1 not being affected at all by this patch.

The increase in immortal range actually may help a toss significantly when you're defending against 1-1-1 cos of two things:

1. Terrans usually focus on the immortal once they see it coming forward to hit the tanks, this buff will definitely cause some delay in the immortal going down as marines will have to walk further forward past the zealot sentry line to hit the immortal as the immortal will be further away. A delay of 2-3 seconds means roughly two extra shots by each immortal and that can change the battle!

2. Siege tanks too near the ramp ( during a contain ) and immortals will be able to pick them off from the high ground. Thus the further sieging distance also means toss' buildings are not as easily sniped by the tanks.

Oh and also if the increase in barracks building time does go through it also means terran's 1-1-1 push will come a few seconds later. 5 perhaps? Which translates to possibly an extra set of warp ins / one more immortal which can really mean A LOT.

Overall I think this patch is awesome but I actually feel sorry for zergs cos Neural Parasite seemed quite ok to me. perhaps a -1 in casting range would have sufficed.

Still think something should be done for carriers though!!!

**nGenLight** · Sat, 10th-Sep-2011, 5:00 PM

I have a feeling NP was hit too hard, but it was certainly not "OK". The amount of 200/200 armies I have demolished because of 10+ Infestors registers no sympathy from me at the NP hit.

StitcH · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 5:52 AM

Why they nerf Neural Parasite until like that? Infestors seems alittle weak now. :S

Muldeh · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 3:32 PM

Infestor is still great. Neural parasite is just a useless upgrade now, and massive units are much much harder to deal with as zerg.

ProAnnn · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 5:17 PM

The neural change will affect ZvP and ZvT. But i think it makes the protoss a little bit stronger but mass thors is yet another problem. Like whoever posted before me, i think it is ok just to nerf the neural range. It would be a better solution since it allows skillful played who flank with infestor to utilise neural and make it useful and not imba.

EveJeonSa · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 6:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

The neural change will affect ZvP and ZvT. But i think it makes the protoss a little bit stronger but mass thors is yet another problem. Like whoever posted before me, i think it is ok just to nerf the neural range. It would be a better solution since it allows skillful played who flank with infestor to utilise neural and make it useful and not imba.

What do you mean by make it useful and not imba.

ProAnnn · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 8:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derpy

What do you mean by make it useful and not imba.

If they nerf the range, it wouldnt be possible to neural the collossus from the front. Which is pretty imba that they can do it in the first place..

EveMassacrisM · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 9:21 PM

Quote:

If they nerf the range, it wouldnt be possible to neural the collossus from the front. Which is pretty imba that they can do it in the first place..

Problem is flanking with infestors is heavily dependent on maps. Some don't give Zergs the option to do so at all and with the already nerfed movement speed it becomes even more difficult. Plus a simple warp-in reinforcements can easily come in and snipe the exposed infestors.

Nope. With decreased range NP just isn't viable at all.

Snx`Azz · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 9:27 PM

Basically these changes represent % winrate.

So these changes do not exactly represent balance but help to build & maintain a 50% win ratio as funny as it sounds.

Thats how bliz balances things.

TADivinity · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 11:09 PM

As Lost said before, I really can't see this Neural change going through - at least not in the same way that it has been proposed
Terran Mech will now be a fantastic option - just have some starports on stand-by waiting for the Broodlords, react, and I cant see you having much trouble.

I know protoss have had woes with Zerg. I think Zerg can still manage with this MU, however as soon as there are a 'mass' of collosus/archons, its gonna be seriously hard to effectively army-trade without Tier 3 support.

Where I get grumpy is the fact that Ghosts and HT's exist in this game, and this really just gives less of an incentive to make them. I know HT's are a bit useless without their energy upgrade, but as soon as they feedback an infestor its practically a complete 1:1 trade (in regards to resources)

I would not be surprised if Blizz are trying to come up with a new spell for the infestor...

All in all, if it goes through I think I will be seriously considering a race-change and a couple of league demotions..

Estancia · Sun, 11th-Sep-2011, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TADivinity

I know protoss have had woes with Zerg. I think Zerg can still manage with this MU, however as soon as there are a 'mass' of collosus/archons, its gonna be seriously hard to effectively army-trade without Tier 3 support.

In starcraft 2, if you are behind in tech, and same in other aspects, you should probably be losing. Zerg could roflstomp protoss deathball (which comprises of tier 3 units) just by using Infestor roaches (highest tier 2) and neural parasiting the colossi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Where I get grumpy is the fact that Ghosts and HT's exist in this game, and this really just gives less of an incentive to make them. I know HT's are a bit useless without their energy upgrade, but as soon as they feedback an infestor its practically a complete 1:1 trade (in regards to resources)

Its the similar thing with ghost's EMP. It depends on who manages to cast a spell faster. If a infestor is already neural parasitng a colossi, or fungaled your entire army, there is no point of feedbacking it. This gives infestors great advantage when you try to feedback them, unless you somehow manage to ninja your way in and feedback all of them before you get killed.

TADivinity · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 3:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estancia

Its the similar thing with ghost's EMP. It depends on who manages to cast a spell faster. If a infestor is already neural parasitng a colossi, or fungaled your entire army, there is no point of feedbacking it. This gives infestors great advantage when you try to feedback them, unless you somehow manage to ninja your way in and feedback all of them before you get killed.

Have you seen how fast a Feedback goes down compared to a Neural? How hard is it to keep the collosus back until you shoot off the Feedback - and then enter the collosus (Who are long range anyway?). Then if you manage to keep the HT alive you get bonus archons..

And I know Fungle is easier and faster to cast than Neural - but that is being nerfed too. (Not complaining about this nerf btw)

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

I recommend trying to use HT compo army against Roach, Infestor, and see how easy it is to get Feedbacks off

SuperHero · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 1:01 AM

I think the neural parasite nerf is very overboard in terms of dealing with the infestor. The fungal growth change was a good start but i think this is too much.

it may get to the point where infestors are only used for infested terran bombs and thats its.

**PiG** · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 11:23 AM

I have no problem with NP being nerfed. In no other RTS is there a caster with 3 offensive abilities (correct me if im wrong).

1) Infested Terran: Still the most imba spell in the game. It's essentially a full stimship for 2 supply.
2) Fungal is pretty much as good as storm, if not better. The damage nerf won't affect it too much.
3) NP will only be useful for immortals, Hts, ghosts and seige-tanks now. It can still be very useful in certain scenarios.

With two extremely easy and obvious combat/harass spells already on the unit I really don't have a problem with NP becoming a much more niche ability.

Now as for specific builds which NP has been used to counter. Certain zergs have said they CANT stop a 2-base collossus push or a thor helion push now. My answer to this is I've almost NEVER used NP vs collossus until recently it really is just icing on the ZvP cake.

As for Thor builds, common. Thor-based armies are hopeless. They are incredibly slow and so if you've reacted appropriately to mech and are up on atleast 4+ bases with ridiculous drone-counts then you just head for brood infestor.

"But Pig what if they push before Broods you automatically JUST DIE!"

No.

There's these units called roaches. They're fast and if you simply counterattack (drops if they have good walloffs). You can basetrade, maynarde drones from your dieing bases and rebuild tech continuing to build proxy greater spire/roach warrens. You will be overwhelm their army with your economy simply continuing longer then theirs.

"But roaches tickle a maxed mech army"

Get burrow movement against mech, if you force the orbitals to liftoff and burrow underneath their army you smash it.

Also if they're maxed and you don't have broods you've done something wrong.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	This post has made the most sense to me in this thread.
	Halstrom:	Needed to be said
	Nemo:	Great analysis !
	EveJeonSa:
	nGenLight:	I really like this guy!
	dazaris:
	Bendy:	Quite a refreshing opinion from this fine zerg player
	sRAnti:	piggy hwaiting
	Champi:	stop QQing about how weak zerg i.... wait wtf? i like you

TADivinity · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 3:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiG

I have no problem with NP being nerfed. In no other RTS is there a caster with 3 offensive abilities (correct me if im wrong).

1) Infested Terran: Still the most imba spell in the game. It's essentially a full stimship for 2 supply.
2) Fungal is pretty much as good as storm, if not better. The damage nerf won't affect it too much.
3) NP will only be useful for immortals, Hts, ghosts and seige-tanks now. It can still be very useful in certain scenarios.

With two extremely easy and obvious combat/harass spells already on the unit I really don't have a problem with NP becoming a much more niche ability.

Now as for specific builds which NP has been used to counter. Certain zergs have said they CANT stop a 2-base collossus push or a thor helion push now. My answer to this is I've almost NEVER used NP vs collossus until recently it really is just icing on the ZvP cake.

As for Thor builds, common. Thor-based armies are hopeless. They are incredibly slow and so if you've reacted appropriately to mech and are up on atleast 4+ bases with ridiculous drone-counts then you just head for brood infestor.

"But Pig what if they push before Broods you automatically JUST DIE!"

No.

There's these units called roaches. They're fast and if you simply counterattack (drops if they have good walloffs). You can basetrade, maynarde drones from your dieing bases and rebuild tech continuing to build proxy greater spire/roach warrens. You will be overwhelm their army with your economy simply continuing longer then theirs.

"But roaches tickle a maxed mech army"

Get burrow movement against mech, if you force the orbitals to liftoff and burrow underneath their army you smash it.

Also if they're maxed and you don't have broods you've done something wrong.

Your post makes me feel I have just had a massive QQ

.

Tbh I have felt like its the end of the world because my style has been based around using Neural in a lot of situations - especially when there are a majority of tanks containing your base and a few thors covering.

Whilst I really dont like the idea of base trading, your points regarding a focus on drops is very true.

This makes me think of something completely unrelated -- They still havent made any effort to make Overlords visually look different when they get Ventral Sacks. A subtle advantage no doubt.

SuperHero · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 7:20 PM

I just had another look at the patch notes and it seems the neural parasite change has been removed? anyone on the ptr confirm/deny that the change is still in place?

it looks like it might not be implemented at all.

TADivinity · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperHero

I just had another look at the patch notes and it seems the neural parasite change has been removed? anyone on the ptr confirm/deny that the change is still in place?

it looks like it might not be implemented at all.

Did it say "updated <date>" at the top? Otherwise you might just be looking at the patch notes that were released before the <update> that noted the NP change.

SuperHero · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Did it say "updated <date>" at the top? Otherwise you might just be looking at the patch notes that were released before the <update> that noted the NP change.

Ah yeah good call. i just checked the thread on the battlenet forums and its still there.

interesting.

ROOT`iaguz · Mon, 12th-Sep-2011, 9:59 PM

Caster with 3 offensive abilities? Leshrac the Tortured Soul (aka Torturer from HoN) has like 4 dude. I'd say he's pretty balanced.

Staying on topic a bit, NP nerf makes me ponder the viability of BC's in TvZ, also rethinking how I view the Thor unit. Fun times abound! Now all I need is infinite gas...

Quick Comments

	ToRPandarine:	dont we all wish for infinite gas in our gas heavy builds? :P
	PiG:	Leshrac Zomg best hero! Bloostone + 15 charges and you just leave Pulse Nova on permamnentaly and kite all the neuts while dancing between lanes!

aLtShortizz · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 2:05 AM

I can foresee myself having some problems against a Mech composition on smaller maps and close spawns if they take away neural. I know we can swing around and take advantage of speed on bigger maps but smaller ones and close spawn would be hopeless. IE: Shattered temple close spawn is already freaking hard to play ZvT and without Neural, terran has another composition just to kill you.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Great point Shortizz! Imbalanced spawn on shattered will become even more imba!

Ascel · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 9:39 AM

I don't fully understand the reasons behind nerfing NP so hard?

Starcraftmazter · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 9:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic

I don't fully understand the reasons behind nerfing NP so hard?

Zerg is very overpowered, that's why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikk0n

News just in!!!!

Queen's inject larva now takes 50 energy. So the queen spawns with 50 energy but energy regeneration rate remains the same. ;D

Please tell me this is true! The biggest problem with zerg is overpowered macro, and the thing is larva inject. In my view it only needs to give 2 or maybe 3 larva - 5 is far too many!

If Blizzard finally decided to address the overpowered nature of zerg and not just tweak a few units, that would be good.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	why are you in my clan
	FaDeEvetS:	^
	Frogmite:	I think you should go back to battlenet forums

TAhackdZ · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 12:49 PM

I might actually make Ultra's now...

SuperHero · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 1:53 PM

Check out the drop changes that have been implemented in 1.4

http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view....cle_id=3383490

The change, under bug-fixes:
Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location.

Goodbye baneling rain!

TADivinity · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperHero

Check out the drop changes that have been implemented in 1.4

http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view....cle_id=3383490

The change, under bug-fixes:
Transports can no longer unload units into a dense area if the original order was issued on a fogged location.

Goodbye baneling rain!

I don't understand, the patch note says only IF the order was given into fog then you can't unload?

Edit: Maybe the banelings stopped dropping as far as the OL sight was at when the "d-click" order was originally made? Hard when the video didn't limit vision to just the Z player..

But the video shows you can't unload into a dense area regardless?

Bit confused :S

SuperHero · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 3:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Edit: Maybe the banelings stopped dropping as far as the OL sight was at when the "d-click" order was originally made? Hard when the video didn't limit vision to just the Z player..

i think thats exactly what happened its just that the vision range wasnt zerg only in the video

**TAEdgE** · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 2:11 PM

lol
10char

TheMagiBum · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 3:24 PM

I never used NP very much, and when i have i haven't had much success. I don't understand the nerf, they shud make NP be forever

Ultralisks are actually a little better now, but 55 seconds is still a long time.

biogenie · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 6:43 PM

just wondering if anyone saw the PsyStarcraft cast for VileState vs EGIdra... someone please tell me how is ForceField not nerf-ed yet XD As much as I love the balance of the game.. *i know toss is pretty hard done at the moment* the truth is Toss/Terrans still reign supreme if they play a lil meta game and are relentless....

ProAnnn · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biogenie

just wondering if anyone saw the PsyStarcraft cast for VileState vs EGIdra... someone please tell me how is ForceField not nerf-ed yet XD As much as I love the balance of the game.. *i know toss is pretty hard done at the moment* the truth is Toss/Terrans still reign supreme if they play a lil meta game and are relentless....

Well, have you see 10+ sentries just killed by 2 fungal growths while we cant do anything? Have you seen 2-3 collossus getting NP and rape the protoss army instead of vice versa? Have you seen baneling drops annihilating everything the protoss have within seconds?

Fourby · Tue, 13th-Sep-2011, 9:03 PM

I really like this drop fix !!!

**|Erasmus|** · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 8:14 AM

Neural changed again... Can target massive units again, but range has gone from 9 to 7.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3182509584#1

**Dox** · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 8:51 AM

Since this change won't be published on the PTR, I think it's safe to say these changes are final and the patch will roll out within the next week.

Tom · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 9:37 AM

Not too shabby - they have to run into the colossus lance first!

Stallion · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 9:40 AM

good to hear about the neural change

fur · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 11:16 AM

I'll take the reduced range but I still don't think neural should be able to target air units (I want to be able to use BC's damnit!)

**Dox** · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fur

I'll take the reduced range but I still don't think neural should be able to target air units (I want to be able to use BC's damnit!)

Just gotta EMP first.

LennX · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 1:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dox

Just gotta EMP first.

Or yamato cannon some unburrowed infestors.

This PTR seems decent I guess. I just wish they will make infested marines a little weaker but increase their duration a little bit more. Warp Prisms cant seem to die now so I will expect it to be seen a lot more. And last but not least, the chance of a long TvT battle should be lessen since HSM actually outruns vikings now.

**Dox** · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 11:17 AM

Btw the drop change only effects MMA style Terrans who queue multi drops before engaging. Now they either have to scan first or improve their multitasking to execute the drop after the medivac has arrived.

Eldrid · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dox

Btw the drop change only effects MMA style Terrans who queue multi drops before engaging. Now they either have to scan first or improve their multitasking to execute the drop after the medivac has arrived.

No, this wont affect this at all - MMA style terrans dont drop into dense areas, they drop behind mineral lines etc . . . this will still work unfortunately

SuperHero · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 6:16 PM

Yay reduced range is way better than not being able to target massive units.

now those pesky infestors cant just walk up and steal all my tanks or thors. sweet.

FvRelimzkE · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 7:30 PM

I would have preferred that the range be decreased to 8 instead of 7, but I prefer this nerf over the removal of targeting massive units so eh. I don't use infestors too much anyway (probably why I'm still in Plat :P)

Anyway, good to see the 3rax and 1/1/1 are being nerfed a little bit ^_^

EveMassacrisM · Fri, 16th-Sep-2011, 11:38 PM

Nerfing NP to 7 range sounds so ridiculous it's almost funny. Did any of the Blizzard guys even try NP-ing a massive unit at 7 range in a practical situation? The amount of idiocy it took to implement this is blowing my mind.

EDIT: Looks like there wont be baneling drops after 1.4 either. Fungal's dps got nerfed. No more NP. Sounds like Protoss can go back to deathball mode safely again.

fur · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

Nerfing NP to 7 range sounds so ridiculous it's almost funny. Did any of the Blizzard guys even try NP-ing a massive unit at 7 range in a practical situation? The amount of idiocy it took to implement this is blowing my mind.

EDIT: Looks like there wont be baneling drops after 1.4 either. Fungal's dps got nerfed. No more NP. Sounds like Protoss can go back to deathball mode safely again.

It should NOT be easy to mindcontrol half of someones army. It is a powerful spell and their should be some degree of difficulty associated with it.

I think the ease of spell casting in SC2 has made players lazy.

ProAnnn · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

Nerfing NP to 7 range sounds so ridiculous it's almost funny. Did any of the Blizzard guys even try NP-ing a massive unit at 7 range in a practical situation? The amount of idiocy it took to implement this is blowing my mind.

EDIT: Looks like there wont be baneling drops after 1.4 either. Fungal's dps got nerfed. No more NP. Sounds like Protoss can go back to deathball mode safely again.

Nerfing the neural range to 7 is to address the whining of ZvT where mass thors are a viable strat once again. It is not to address the fact you can neural every single one toss's collossus haha

pikk0n · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 12:21 PM

News just in!!!!

Queen's inject larva now takes 50 energy. So the queen spawns with 50 energy but energy regeneration rate remains the same. ;D

Quick Comments

LennX:

Could be more subtle though :P

TcaTX · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 8:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pikk0n

News just in!!!!

Queen's inject larva now takes 50 energy. So the queen spawns with 50 energy but energy regeneration rate remains the same. ;D

Better be trolling mate... I take you are by the ;D...

If not Blizzard are in for hell =P

pikk0n · Sat, 17th-Sep-2011, 11:35 PM

I had to make the ;D in case I stir up a major shitstorm. Nope, blizz isn't doing that.

I'm just trolling but I can only imagine the reaction from zerg players if blizz decides to trial that right after messing with neural. TL will be completely bombarded with messages. Half supporting it because of zerg's remacroing ability while the other half just ripping the &*^& out of blizz.

I really want to see IdrA's reaction to such a change.

EveMassacrisM · Sun, 18th-Sep-2011, 2:05 AM

Quote:

It should NOT be easy to mindcontrol half of someones army. It is a powerful spell and their should be some degree of difficulty associated with it.

I think the ease of spell casting in SC2 has made players lazy.

I think it has been nerfed to the point it's not viable at all anymore. Just picture an infestor neural-ing a Colossus at 7 range. If you do it right you can totally see Blizzard's trollface there.

Totally agree with 2nd point. Smart casting totally wrecked the difficulty of Starcraft. It's now just about getting as 10-year-old friendly as CoD has become.

Quote:

Nerfing the neural range to 7 is to address the whining of ZvT where mass thors are a viable strat once again. It is not to address the fact you can neural every single one toss's collossus haha

That's what I thought. So Blizzard decided that fixing a seemingly broken ZvP is more important than messing up the other matchup(?). NP-ing tanks and immortals aren't going to be even possible anymore either if you really think about it. 7range is also still within the attack range of Thors and Thors can 2shot an infestor too. One shot from a few hellions(which usually accompany in a mass Thors timing) allows Thors to 1shot infestors as well.

**PiG** · Mon, 19th-Sep-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EveMassacrisM

I think it has been nerfed to the point it's not viable at all anymore. Just picture an infestor neural-ing a Colossus at 7 range. If you do it right you can totally see Blizzard's trollface there.

I imagine it being used in situations where the infestors are specifically dropped, burrowed or flank into battle. It will be a very hard-to-execute move which will pay huge dividends for such a small resource allocation in a few infestors. It definitely won't be able to be executed en-masse by a player with shabby micro.

We are seeing what in my eyes is NP being turned into a niche, support ability. In my eyes this is where it belongs.

I think this range decrease means it still has the potential to be used brilliantly to turn around huge battles. But no longer can it be relied on as a hard-counter to collossus and mech.

I'm happy to see a unit that is extremely easy to reach on the tech tree (tier 2, low build time for the pit, reasonably low upgrade time on neural) get one of its extremely powerful abilities nerfed to the point where it doesn't have such a ridiculous amount of utility.

I look forward to Destiny being forced to upgrade his mechanics and gameplay a little or drop down. To be honest though, fungal and infested terrans will still be insanely good spells

Quick Comments

CZE:

Your emphasis on the infestor being too versatile couldn't be more right. Really good post.

**Nemo** · Sun, 18th-Sep-2011, 4:09 AM

Guys, one of the main reason this forum is good is that nobody whines about balance. Let's just keep it like that and don't transform this thread into one of Battle Net forum classic rubbish.

It's more interesting to know your opinions about what it's going to change in strategies than how it will be easier or more difficult overall for this race or that one.

My opinion is that Bunker rushs will be less effective and use of Infestors as unique do-it-all unit won't be as effective too (let's say Destiny style). That change tries to make it a support unit anew.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	Great post Nemo! This thread was starting to look pretty whiny :)
	Frogmite:	Captain Nemo reporting.

Daboo · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 9:55 AM

Patch is live on SEA now, it's downloading at 2kbps

.

cruxBsK · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 11:07 AM

any chance we can get a copy of the patch notes on here was it basically the same as previous just with the change to Infestors?

Daboo · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BsK

any chance we can get a copy of the patch notes on here was it basically the same as previous just with the change to Infestors?

Yeah it's the same thing, the only addition is the infestor change to np.

Here is the new score screen, this one doesnt show the leagues, but next to the player team numbers, there will be the league emblems. So you dont have to go view profile->Leagues and ladders once a game is over to see how good your opponent is ...I will probably still do it to see his win/loss streak

.

cruxBsK · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 2:07 PM

[QUOTE=Daboo;35573]Yeah it's the same thing, the only addition is the infestor change to np.

Here is the new score screen, this one doesnt show the leagues, but next to the player team numbers, there will be the league emblems. So you dont have to go view profile->Leagues and ladders once a game is over to see how good your opponent is ...I will probably still do it to see his win/loss streak

.

this is from the PTR?

CZE · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 11:35 AM

Could someone post some screenshots of the new post-game score screen? (I didn't know they were actually changing this, I was only aware of the change they made where you can click on your league from the multi-player tab).

Mostly a great patch, my only gripe is with the barracks change - it's pretty poor but oh well. Looking forward to this

ToRDjvillian · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 12:21 PM

Woot, infestors np can still target massive unita

though range has decreases from 9 to 7

Snx.FigJig · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 1:36 PM

Can't find it in the notes, but has the change to baneling drops where the banes are placed outside the ball instead of in it been taken out?

**|Erasmus|** · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 1:54 PM

It was only introduced as a bug in PTR so if it was fixed, the patch wouldn't say anything... It's also proven to only be a change in highly unrealistic situations.

CZE · Tue, 20th-Sep-2011, 2:03 PM

Daboo, that's only vs the computer. Apparently if you play a ladder game it shows your opponent's league in the post-game screen