[EveVendetta]

I don't know why so many people are complaining about Terran's 1-1-1 not being affected at all by this patch.

The increase in immortal range actually may help a toss significantly when you're defending against 1-1-1 cos of two things:

1. Terrans usually focus on the immortal once they see it coming forward to hit the tanks, this buff will definitely cause some delay in the immortal going down as marines will have to walk further forward past the zealot sentry line to hit the immortal as the immortal will be further away. A delay of 2-3 seconds means roughly two extra shots by each immortal and that can change the battle!

2. Siege tanks too near the ramp ( during a contain ) and immortals will be able to pick them off from the high ground. Thus the further sieging distance also means toss' buildings are not as easily sniped by the tanks.

Oh and also if the increase in barracks building time does go through it also means terran's 1-1-1 push will come a few seconds later. 5 perhaps? Which translates to possibly an extra set of warp ins / one more immortal which can really mean A LOT.

Overall I think this patch is awesome but I actually feel sorry for zergs cos Neural Parasite seemed quite ok to me. perhaps a -1 in casting range would have sufficed.

Still think something should be done for carriers though!!!

[nGenLight]

I have a feeling NP was hit too hard, but it was certainly not "OK". The amount of 200/200 armies I have demolished because of 10+ Infestors registers no sympathy from me at the NP hit.

[StitcH]

Why they nerf Neural Parasite until like that? Infestors seems alittle weak now. :S

[Muldeh]

Infestor is still great. Neural parasite is just a useless upgrade now, and massive units are much much harder to deal with as zerg.

[ProAnnn]

The neural change will affect ZvP and ZvT. But i think it makes the protoss a little bit stronger but mass thors is yet another problem. Like whoever posted before me, i think it is ok just to nerf the neural range. It would be a better solution since it allows skillful played who flank with infestor to utilise neural and make it useful and not imba.

[EveJeonSa]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

The neural change will affect ZvP and ZvT. But i think it makes the protoss a little bit stronger but mass thors is yet another problem. Like whoever posted before me, i think it is ok just to nerf the neural range. It would be a better solution since it allows skillful played who flank with infestor to utilise neural and make it useful and not imba.

What do you mean by make it useful and not imba.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by derpy

What do you mean by make it useful and not imba.

If they nerf the range, it wouldnt be possible to neural the collossus from the front. Which is pretty imba that they can do it in the first place..

[EveMassacrisM]

If they nerf the range, it wouldnt be possible to neural the collossus from the front. Which is pretty imba that they can do it in the first place..

Problem is flanking with infestors is heavily dependent on maps. Some don't give Zergs the option to do so at all and with the already nerfed movement speed it becomes even more difficult. Plus a simple warp-in reinforcements can easily come in and snipe the exposed infestors.

Nope. With decreased range NP just isn't viable at all.

[Snx`Azz]

Basically these changes represent % winrate.

So these changes do not exactly represent balance but help to build & maintain a 50% win ratio as funny as it sounds.

Thats how bliz balances things.

[TADivinity]

As Lost said before, I really can't see this Neural change going through - at least not in the same way that it has been proposed
Terran Mech will now be a fantastic option - just have some starports on stand-by waiting for the Broodlords, react, and I cant see you having much trouble.

I know protoss have had woes with Zerg. I think Zerg can still manage with this MU, however as soon as there are a 'mass' of collosus/archons, its gonna be seriously hard to effectively army-trade without Tier 3 support.

Where I get grumpy is the fact that Ghosts and HT's exist in this game, and this really just gives less of an incentive to make them. I know HT's are a bit useless without their energy upgrade, but as soon as they feedback an infestor its practically a complete 1:1 trade (in regards to resources)

I would not be surprised if Blizz are trying to come up with a new spell for the infestor...

All in all, if it goes through I think I will be seriously considering a race-change and a couple of league demotions..

[Estancia]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

I know protoss have had woes with Zerg. I think Zerg can still manage with this MU, however as soon as there are a 'mass' of collosus/archons, its gonna be seriously hard to effectively army-trade without Tier 3 support.

In starcraft 2, if you are behind in tech, and same in other aspects, you should probably be losing. Zerg could roflstomp protoss deathball (which comprises of tier 3 units) just by using Infestor roaches (highest tier 2) and neural parasiting the colossi.

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Where I get grumpy is the fact that Ghosts and HT's exist in this game, and this really just gives less of an incentive to make them. I know HT's are a bit useless without their energy upgrade, but as soon as they feedback an infestor its practically a complete 1:1 trade (in regards to resources)

Its the similar thing with ghost's EMP. It depends on who manages to cast a spell faster. If a infestor is already neural parasitng a colossi, or fungaled your entire army, there is no point of feedbacking it. This gives infestors great advantage when you try to feedback them, unless you somehow manage to ninja your way in and feedback all of them before you get killed.

[SuperHero]

I think the neural parasite nerf is very overboard in terms of dealing with the infestor. The fungal growth change was a good start but i think this is too much.

it may get to the point where infestors are only used for infested terran bombs and thats its.

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by Estancia

Its the similar thing with ghost's EMP. It depends on who manages to cast a spell faster. If a infestor is already neural parasitng a colossi, or fungaled your entire army, there is no point of feedbacking it. This gives infestors great advantage when you try to feedback them, unless you somehow manage to ninja your way in and feedback all of them before you get killed.

Have you seen how fast a Feedback goes down compared to a Neural? How hard is it to keep the collosus back until you shoot off the Feedback - and then enter the collosus (Who are long range anyway?). Then if you manage to keep the HT alive you get bonus archons..

And I know Fungle is easier and faster to cast than Neural - but that is being nerfed too. (Not complaining about this nerf btw)

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

I recommend trying to use HT compo army against Roach, Infestor, and see how easy it is to get Feedbacks off

[PiG]

I have no problem with NP being nerfed. In no other RTS is there a caster with 3 offensive abilities (correct me if im wrong).

1) Infested Terran: Still the most imba spell in the game. It's essentially a full stimship for 2 supply.
2) Fungal is pretty much as good as storm, if not better. The damage nerf won't affect it too much.
3) NP will only be useful for immortals, Hts, ghosts and seige-tanks now. It can still be very useful in certain scenarios.

With two extremely easy and obvious combat/harass spells already on the unit I really don't have a problem with NP becoming a much more niche ability.

Now as for specific builds which NP has been used to counter. Certain zergs have said they CANT stop a 2-base collossus push or a thor helion push now. My answer to this is I've almost NEVER used NP vs collossus until recently it really is just icing on the ZvP cake.

As for Thor builds, common. Thor-based armies are hopeless. They are incredibly slow and so if you've reacted appropriately to mech and are up on atleast 4+ bases with ridiculous drone-counts then you just head for brood infestor.

"But Pig what if they push before Broods you automatically JUST DIE!"

No.

There's these units called roaches. They're fast and if you simply counterattack (drops if they have good walloffs). You can basetrade, maynarde drones from your dieing bases and rebuild tech continuing to build proxy greater spire/roach warrens. You will be overwhelm their army with your economy simply continuing longer then theirs.

"But roaches tickle a maxed mech army"

Get burrow movement against mech, if you force the orbitals to liftoff and burrow underneath their army you smash it.

Also if they're maxed and you don't have broods you've done something wrong.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	This post has made the most sense to me in this thread.
	Halstrom:	Needed to be said
	Nemo:	Great analysis !
	EveJeonSa:
	nGenLight:	I really like this guy!
	dazaris:
	Bendy:	Quite a refreshing opinion from this fine zerg player
	sRAnti:	piggy hwaiting
	Champi:	stop QQing about how weak zerg i.... wait wtf? i like you

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by PiG

I have no problem with NP being nerfed. In no other RTS is there a caster with 3 offensive abilities (correct me if im wrong).

1) Infested Terran: Still the most imba spell in the game. It's essentially a full stimship for 2 supply.
2) Fungal is pretty much as good as storm, if not better. The damage nerf won't affect it too much.
3) NP will only be useful for immortals, Hts, ghosts and seige-tanks now. It can still be very useful in certain scenarios.

With two extremely easy and obvious combat/harass spells already on the unit I really don't have a problem with NP becoming a much more niche ability.

Now as for specific builds which NP has been used to counter. Certain zergs have said they CANT stop a 2-base collossus push or a thor helion push now. My answer to this is I've almost NEVER used NP vs collossus until recently it really is just icing on the ZvP cake.

As for Thor builds, common. Thor-based armies are hopeless. They are incredibly slow and so if you've reacted appropriately to mech and are up on atleast 4+ bases with ridiculous drone-counts then you just head for brood infestor.

"But Pig what if they push before Broods you automatically JUST DIE!"

No.

There's these units called roaches. They're fast and if you simply counterattack (drops if they have good walloffs). You can basetrade, maynarde drones from your dieing bases and rebuild tech continuing to build proxy greater spire/roach warrens. You will be overwhelm their army with your economy simply continuing longer then theirs.

"But roaches tickle a maxed mech army"

Get burrow movement against mech, if you force the orbitals to liftoff and burrow underneath their army you smash it.

Also if they're maxed and you don't have broods you've done something wrong.

Your post makes me feel I have just had a massive QQ .

Tbh I have felt like its the end of the world because my style has been based around using Neural in a lot of situations - especially when there are a majority of tanks containing your base and a few thors covering.

Whilst I really dont like the idea of base trading, your points regarding a focus on drops is very true.

This makes me think of something completely unrelated -- They still havent made any effort to make Overlords visually look different when they get Ventral Sacks. A subtle advantage no doubt.

[SuperHero]

I just had another look at the patch notes and it seems the neural parasite change has been removed? anyone on the ptr confirm/deny that the change is still in place?

it looks like it might not be implemented at all.

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by SuperHero

I just had another look at the patch notes and it seems the neural parasite change has been removed? anyone on the ptr confirm/deny that the change is still in place?

it looks like it might not be implemented at all.

Did it say "updated <date>" at the top? Otherwise you might just be looking at the patch notes that were released before the <update> that noted the NP change.

[ROOT`iaguz]

Caster with 3 offensive abilities? Leshrac the Tortured Soul (aka Torturer from HoN) has like 4 dude. I'd say he's pretty balanced.

Staying on topic a bit, NP nerf makes me ponder the viability of BC's in TvZ, also rethinking how I view the Thor unit. Fun times abound! Now all I need is infinite gas...

Quick Comments

	ToRPandarine:	dont we all wish for infinite gas in our gas heavy builds? :P
	PiG:	Leshrac Zomg best hero! Bloostone + 15 charges and you just leave Pulse Nova on permamnentaly and kite all the neuts while dancing between lanes!

[SuperHero]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Did it say "updated <date>" at the top? Otherwise you might just be looking at the patch notes that were released before the <update> that noted the NP change.

Ah yeah good call. i just checked the thread on the battlenet forums and its still there.

interesting.

[aLtShortizz]

I can foresee myself having some problems against a Mech composition on smaller maps and close spawns if they take away neural. I know we can swing around and take advantage of speed on bigger maps but smaller ones and close spawn would be hopeless. IE: Shattered temple close spawn is already freaking hard to play ZvT and without Neural, terran has another composition just to kill you.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Great point Shortizz! Imbalanced spawn on shattered will become even more imba!