[nirvAnA]

I've talked to both tgun and glade, and they have both agreed to play in the SEA CL #2 as "mercs" for the two least strong "Tier 1" teams.

The 8 tier 1 teams that will be invited are xGking +nGen, TArcMSI , SQLT, inFi, aLt, Mski, MiTH, SPR.

Why are they playing as "mercs"?

First of all they are probably the two most famous SEA players, but they have never belonged to a SEA clan or team. To have them suddenly join a Team just for SEACL would not be right, but exculding them from the league wouldn't be right either. The fairest way imo to include both of them would be to assign them to the two "least strong" teams in Tier 1.

This solves the problem of one powerhouse team "picking up" BOTH these players as mercs for their OWN team just for the SEACL. Meaning in that scenario they are essentially "mercs" as they are just playing for this season of SEACL but they are making one team incredibly strong and dominant. Yes they actually received offers already!

I feel this way presents a much more level playing field, so the skill is more evenly distributed and theres more competition throughout the league. Its now hard to say "The Big 4" will get all the top spots again. This will also produce more high quality matches since they will probably be playing in the Ace Matches, so you get to see the likes of GLaDe & Tgun every week while still seeing top players from other teams. The two teams I have determined as the "least strong teams" are Mineski & MiTH.

GLaDe will join MiTh as a mercenary for Season 1
tgun will join Mineski as a mercenary for Season 1

The players have a condition like a fair % of any prize money won from SEACL to go to them. I will now talk to the teams to confirm, but I'm sure both would love these additions to the team as it is a very reasonable request.

[ToRSpartaz]

Glade to ToR? ;D Hes always in our channel so why not ^^

Quick Comments

ToRDjvillian:

+1

[aLtMrFool]

Good but I don't think it should be made a permanent solution if SEACL continues to be run beyond season 1! Given the short notice before SEACL makes its debut, it seems to be a solution for now!

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by aLtMrFool

Good but I don't think it should be made a permanent solution if SEACL continues to be run beyond season 1! Given the short notice before SEACL makes its debut, it seems to be a solution for now!

It's season 2, and it starts in one month

[Eddie]

I agree with Pinder, seems a little cheap to me them already joining quality established teams.

they have never belonged to a SEA clan or team

To me this speaks volumes. Both awesome guys, but this event should be about and for those who play in SEA clans with their team mates.

I like the idea of them forming a merc/independent team, but then could be a but stacked/unfair to the real clans.

Quick Comments

deL:

[NvPinder]

This makes 0 sense to me....

Why not make glade and tgun + any other masters/GM stragglers make a team together? Glade + tgun on a team alone would make them a fair force, boosting lower ranked lineups is a slap in the face to the lower ranked teams(of which i wouldnt really consider mineski to be to be honest) and just makes the competition not really mean anything (ie: Well yeah mith won but they wouldnt of won if they didn't have glade playing) etc.

At the end of the day its suppose to be "Who is the best clan in SEA", in my eyes if either of those 2 teams win now it completely takes away from any legitimacy of the tournament.

Quick Comments

	deL:
	Champi:
	MooZfY:
	TAScarecrow:
	TADivinity:	Posting at 4:20am after this blew up....Still agree 110%
	FvRsolis:

[nirvAnA]

First of all, this is not final that's why there's a poll. this was a solution suggested to so that tgun and glade could play in the league. if a better solution comes up i will use it. having a "clanless" or "mercenary" team will mean 1 less team gets in, which has no sponsors and its different from what we are trying to accomplish, getting sponsored teams /players air time and keeping sponsors happy, or getting other strong teams like SPR attention so they can get a good sponsor.

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

This makes 0 sense to me....

Why not make glade and tgun + any other masters/GM stragglers make a team together? Glade + tgun on a team alone would make them a fair force, boosting lower ranked lineups is a slap in the face to the lower ranked teams(of which i wouldnt really consider mineski to be to be honest) and just makes the competition not really mean anything (ie: Well yeah mith won but they wouldnt of won if they didn't have glade playing) etc.

At the end of the day its suppose to be "Who is the best clan in SEA", in my eyes if either of those 2 teams win now it completely takes away from any legitimacy of the tournament.

firstly its to evenly distribute the skill to avoid one superteam that would dominate the others and lower the competitiveness of the whole competition. so instead of tgun/glade/filthy on one team or they both joining an already strong team like xgking, they are split up, still play in the league, and help boost the other "less strong" teams.

i dont see how its a slap on the face, its subjective yes, but hey i wont mind calling aLt the weakest team if we got glade/tgun playing for us and im sure any team wouldnt care if they are considered the "weakest" if that meant glade or tgun joined their team. bearing in mind just 4 players are needed each week, this is how i would roughly "seed" the teams at the moment. i didnt just blindly throw a darts at a wall to determine the "least strong" teams, i thoguht about it based on the 4 best players.if needed i can take votes from the players listed below to get a less subjective determination of the two "least strong" teams but i am pretty certain we will end up with the same result.

Strongest teams

• xGking - mafia, jazbas, iaguz, light
• inFi - targa, iceiceice, rev, Kim jong roz
• SPR - soulman, master, ist, pokerface
• TArcMSI - rossi, deth, edge, pinder

"Not so strong" teams

• aLt - pig, jimdiddy, yoonyj, han
• SQLT - ninja, hut, sensei, yaaaang
• Mski - enderr, jabito, azz, pobbes
• MiTH - redarchon, maya, jump, indy

[iceiceice]

Originally Posted by TargA

you forgot roz

you forgot roz.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by iceiceice

you forgot roz.

I just listed the first 4 players that came to my mind for each team, roz has been inactive. Teams can have up to 10 players probably and rotate lineups its up to them

[TargA]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I just listed the first 4 players that came to my mind for each team. Teams can have up to 10 players probably and rotate lineups its up to them

inFi pulls out of the league, it will happen. :/

[NDG.Stitch]

Absolutely agree with Pinder. It takes out the point of the tournament if you add in players like Glade or tgun into a team's lineup. Glade or tgun will barely represent that team in any fashion, unless they have been practicing with that team for a long time (which I don't believe they have with either Mineski or MiTH). And I also don't see how you'd even figure out the 2 weakest teams off of that list of teams, it's a bit opinionated.... :/

I'd be looking o other solutions, i'd love to see both Glade and tgun play, but putting them in Mineski and MiTH just isn't the way.

Quick Comments

	deL:
	TAScarecrow:

[Benji]

Can we have them? If the format requires 5 players we need the extras

Quick Comments

deL:

you get... NOTHING

[mOOnGLaDe]

well if its a problem with alot of people im happy to revive team herocraft and invite tgun as a member i dont mind i just wanted to play, and joining a lesser team seemed fair rather than going to xgking or something ;P

Quick Comments

	:	Go Team Herocraft!
	deL:	I really hate the clanless team ideas :(
	breadfan:	herocraft ^.^

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

well if its a problem with alot of people im happy to revive team herocraft and invite tgun as a member i dont mind i just wanted to play, and joining a lesser team seemed fair rather than going to xgking or something ;P

Can I join Herocraft tooz?.. tgun, mOOnGLaDe and EdgE - you guys will need a protoss.. :P

[TAEdgE]

hahaha herocraft

[mOOnGLaDe]

sounds like edge wants to join it too! :P:P

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

sounds like edge wants to join it too! :P:P

I'd totally be in for herocraft

[mGGDrGooSe]

In any tournament I think the question has to be asked, in which order do we cater to the fans/players and teams/clans. Given that this is a clan league I would assume the clans would be high in that order, and therefore I am most interested in their opinions. As a fan, I just want any way I can get to watch our superstars play on a regular basis. Having marque players can really only serve to strengthen the quality of play I feel. In order to be the best, you have to play the best. Leaving out Glade and Tgun can only hurt the league overall, IMO. I don't actually care what the solution is, so long as it ends up giving the highest quality matches possible.

[TargA]

mineski just won this league

[ROOT`iaguz]

I disagree TargA, Moonglade is definitely a very strong player but he's not indestructible, I think it's pretty fair.

Oh wait, I think he means Azz. Hmmm, yea we're boned for sure.

[TargA]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

I disagree TargA, Moonglade is definitely a very strong player but he's not indestructible, I think it's pretty fair.

Oh wait, I think he means Azz. Hmmm, yea we're boned for sure.

moonglade is in mith you silly bastard.

Mineski now has Australias best player, the worlds best player, the best fillipino and the best player in SEA.

Pretty sick!

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by TargA

moonglade is in mith you silly bastard.

Mineski now has Australias best player, the worlds best player, the best fillipino and the best player in SEA.

Pretty sick!

Which is which?

[syfMiley]

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

Which is which?

Azz, Azz, Azz and Azz

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by TargA

moonglade is in mith you silly bastard.

Mineski now has Australias best player, the worlds best player, the best fillipino and the best player in SEA.

Pretty sick!

How did you know I joined Mineski ? It was a secret deal, about the same as Beckham in the PSG ... Well without the same salary ... In fact without salary

[ROOT`iaguz]

Mother of God...

[NvPinder]

I think (although i could be totally wrong), be we would be joining as TA not arcmsi.

[NvRossi]

wheres roz on that list?

[AxSGRiM]

RA+GlaDe and tgun+EnDeRR+JaBiTo. damn

[PiG]

Glade and Tgun why not on SEA clans anyway? THINK YOU'RE BETTER THEN US?

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	You tell em PiGzy
	Zealo:	if they do they're right lol

[nirvAnA]

K in that case dear leader Kim jong roz over muse

[jump]

to roz ~ RedArchon will join MiTH for SEACL ^^; hope u not mind

and glade welcome to MiTH ~ Let's rock !!!

[TargA]

Originally Posted by jump

to roz ~ RedArchon will join MiTH for SEACL ^^; hope u not mind

and glade welcome to MiTH ~ Let's rock !!!

we are more sad that indy wont be able to play for us : (

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by TargA

we are more sad that indy wont be able to play for us : (

IT OK

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

indy looks so happy!

[jump]

lol muse how u got this pic

[dippa]

thing is, if andy + tgun put together a slut team, who would they get to fill in the rest of the roster?

only players that i can think of that would be competitive that aren't on a team would be like, kayz, bielsko, techtron (pretty sure he's on a team ... can't think which one though), evesigns, eldrid, maybe even masters players like sunder

actually, that could be an interesting team to throw in the mix.

so yeah, andy+tgun bring back herocraft. should be fun.

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by dippa

thing is, if andy + tgun put together a slut team, who would they get to fill in the rest of the roster?

only players that i can think of that would be competitive that aren't on a team would be like, kayz, bielsko, techtron (pretty sure he's on a team ... can't think which one though), evesigns, eldrid, maybe even masters players like sunder

actually, that could be an interesting team to throw in the mix.

so yeah, andy+tgun bring back herocraft. should be fun.

Bielsko got picked up by aLt a while back eldrid is in a clan too (but I dont think its a tier 1 clan/team) but yeah Kayz is a little boss and theres heaps of top 50 GMs around unaligned at this point

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by dippa

thing is, if andy + tgun put together a slut team, who would they get to fill in the rest of the roster?

only players that i can think of that would be competitive that aren't on a team would be like, kayz, bielsko, techtron (pretty sure he's on a team ... can't think which one though), evesigns, eldrid, maybe even masters players like sunder

actually, that could be an interesting team to throw in the mix.

so yeah, andy+tgun bring back herocraft. should be fun.

Bielskinator, as much as I'd love him on my team for something like this, is on aLt if i'm not mistaken.

Edit: Ninja'd by chros.

[EveTechtron]

i am not on a team

[souljah]

Both tgun and GLaDe should have their own team, lets not be an Azz about it....

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

[dippa]

Originally Posted by souljah

Both tgun and GLaDe should have their own team, lets not be an Azz about it....

you souljah on with those puns ...

[Meatex]

I have an interesting and fun different idea

Perhaps have tgun and moonglade play for clan fade cause clearly we are the most awesomeness clan that ever was (sung to pokeman theme song ^^)

Okay no really
What if they were available to all teams in some fashion? My thinking is each team has the ability to call on either tgun or moonglade to play for them provided they meet some conditions.
Like perhaps a death streak from CoD - if one team has lost to the same player 3 times in a row they can call on glade or tgun for 1 match (win or lose) breaking the winning team's momentum a little but still not calling in a merc to reverse all kill or what have you

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

pokemon theme tune :D

[Roz]

can i suggest that we just go with 5 players a week with even point distribution? Having 4 players and the last player as 2 points puts way too much weight on that 1 single game. The team that wins that last game will most likely end up winning the series if this is the case =.=

[dippa]

should be a bo7 or bo9 format instead, forces teams to have a bit of depth, but any league is better than none.

[Roz]

bo7 is definitely good but the problem is most teams won't have 7 people. It's a huge problem to have the ace as 2 points because for example mith, they just have to put glade in the ace match...chances are they'll get 2 points there. That means the remaining 3 players just needs to win 1 of their series. There's absolutely no depth needed in the line up, that's why i think they should field at least 5 players. That way you'll need at least 3 players to win. If you only need 2 players to win for you every week to win a clan league, it doesn't really feel like a clan league to me at all...

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by Roz

can i suggest that we just go with 5 players a week with even point distribution? Having 4 players and the last player as 2 points puts way too much weight on that 1 single game. The team that wins that last game will most likely end up winning the series if this is the case =.=

Actually no, the problem with G5 being worth 2 points is that you'll end up with unnecessary draws instead.

E.g.
G1: Team A wins (1-0)
G2: Team A wins (2-0)
G3: Team A wins (3-0)
G4: Team B wins (3-1)
G5 : Team B wins (3-3)

If they win 2 apiece, then it doesn't matter what G5 is worth, can be worth 10 points or 1 point it's the same it will just be a tiebreaker match.

The only point of G5 now it seems is to prolong series. For instance, if G5 is worth 1 point then once a team hits 3 wins the series ends. But if G5 is worth 2 points then at least one more game (G4) must be played, and if Team B wins it then G5 has to be played.

[Roz]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Actually no, the problem with G5 being worth 2 points is that you'll end up with unnecessary draws instead.

E.g.
G1: Team A wins (1-0)
G2: Team A wins (2-0)
G3: Team A wins (3-0)
G4: Team B wins (3-1)
G5 : Team B wins (3-3)

If they win 2 apiece, then it doesn't matter what G5 is worth, can be worth 10 points or 1 point it's the same it will just be a tiebreaker match.

The only point of G5 now it seems is to prolong series. For instance, if G5 is worth 1 point then once a team hits 3 wins the series ends. But if G5 is worth 2 points then at least one more game (G4) must be played, and if Team B wins it then G5 has to be played.

What i meant is 1 point for each game...and the teams would still want to play out for more points as I'm assuming you'll have group stage so the points would matter? =.=

[TCPKiaSu]

how is aLt not strong??? pig..... han...... yoonyj... ??? o_O

[nirvAnA]

the TCL 4 player matchday format was basically to help accommodate xGking + SQLT, since they both have just 4 players. this already means that they whole lineup has to be committed to play every week. Of course i myself would very much prefer a bigger format like 5-7 games per week, that way teams with more depth will be rewarded and theres also more room for strategy in picking your players and their starting maps.

Also why not have the 2 point ace match still regardless of 4 or 5 matches? since its a league format theres nothing wrong with draws, teams get 3points(win), 1point(Draw) or 0 points(lose), and it might make things more interesting with undefeated streaks instead of the either "WIN/LOSE scenarios only" which we will already have in the "FA Cup"

MiTH have confirmed and accepted GLaDe to play for them for the upcoming season.
Zendex from Mineski it still unsure if its a right decision, he said he will not feel comfortable if his team ends up winning because of tgun and he will have to discuss with his team, which is of course understandable. Should he not wish tgun to play, SQLT will be next in line to have the option to have tgun play for them a golden opportunity i'm sure infeza won't turn down!

[Benji]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

MiTH have confirmed and accepted GLaDe to play for them for the upcoming season.
Zendex from Mineski it still unsure if its a right decision, he said he will not feel comfortable if his team ends up winning because of tgun and he will have to discuss with his team, which is of course understandable. Should he not wish tgun to play, SQLT will be next in line to have the option to have tgun play for them a golden opportunity i'm sure infeza won't turn down!

We only have 3 players, Light has quit. And why isnt it up to the players on what team they play on? I imagine tgun would prefer to play on my team as opposed to MSKI or another asian based team.

nGen is pretty dead, being forced to pull players from the clan is difficult with Hut not being an option, we're getting through TCL4 as the games my sponsored players are playing are heavily weighted as far as points go, if we have to play a Bo5, i'm kind of counting on iaguz, Jaz and Mafia to win their games.

Also am I allowed to sign players that are not on pro teams (Bielsko, Pokerface etc) to xG for the sole purpose of playing in this league and other similar leagues?

[Xenomorph]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Also am I allowed to sign players that are not on pro teams (Bielsko, Pokerface etc) to xG for the sole purpose of playing in this league and other similar leagues?

I think it's been stated somewhere that you can't do that. However if you were willing to recruit someone into your team for full time (i.e. not just for this tournament) that would obviously be viable.

[Roz]

well i dunno, up to you guys i suppose... i just think a 4 player match day format is way too few to properly represent clans.

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by Roz

well i dunno, up to you guys i suppose... i just think a 4 player match day format is way too few to properly represent clans.

Im with you buddy, cos 4 pax means i wont get to play T_T

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by dippa

actually, that could be an interesting team to throw in the mix.

so yeah, andy+tgun bring back herocraft. should be fun.

having a "clanless" or "mercenary" team will mean 1 less legitimate team gets in. a merc team has no sponsors and its different from what we are trying to accomplish, getting sponsored teams / players air time and keeping their sponsors happy, or getting other strong teams like SPR attention so they can get a good sponsor - all of which will help develop the esports scene in SEAp.

Originally Posted by roz

well i dunno, up to you guys i suppose... i just think a 4 player match day format is way too few to properly represent clans.

it was made primary with xGking and SQLT in mind. if you have any suggestions for that let me know. xGking can use nGen players and arcMSI can use TA players so thats mitigated somewhat. And perhaps SQLT can pick up a "tier 2" clan of their choice as their backup? This would give that backup team some top level experience but of course it would also mean that team cant play in tier 2.

[Zealo]

i think teams should be able to use whoever they can convince to play for them

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

I am of course willing to merc myself out for any team that needs a champion and wishes to win this thing....

K sarcasm off, maybe if you could find another team and then have Herocraft reborn to make it an even amount?? Because i would like to see both GLaDe and Tgun participate but also agree with Pinder that it robs the wins of any validity if they were to carry (Which i assume they would) Also the 4th player on either of those teams and vice versa a player that one of these two knock out may feel cheated after all the hard work they put in training with said team. So GLaDe goes out with MiTH 0-3 and someone playing really well and about to AK for his team then Bang, GLaDe delivers a swift 4-0 rape it kind of negates an achievement for another player.....also this league would be brilliant to see some obviously quite good but lesser known players strut their stuff. In conclusion my opinion is Herocraft reforms and an extra team added aswell or they may have to miss out (Sorry GLaDe/tgun you both) Sorry for the wall of text and i assume terrible grammar throughout, it's like 5 am and im so ******* tired lol

[mGMUSE]

Clans =/= teams, so as this is a clan league i feel that players in sponsored teams should play under their clans and not their sponsored teams(xgking = ngen, the 50 sponsored players from or previously from alt = alt etc)

And bo7 AK format = best

Quick Comments

TAScarecrow:

might as well call it a team league

[[TA]LoSt]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

Clans =/= teams, so as this is a clan league i feel that players in sponsored teams should play under their clans and not their sponsored teams(xgking = ngen, the 50 sponsored players from or previously from alt = alt etc)

And bo7 AK format = best

Problem is if we do that, mafia/light/sensei/yang etc. play for TA and then players like iaguz and jazbas won't be able to play just because there aren't enough competitive nGen around anymore. Same goes for HuT and Ninja if they're not in nGen/aLt.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

Clans =/= teams, so as this is a clan league i feel that players in sponsored teams should play under their clans and not their sponsored teams(xgking = ngen, the 50 sponsored players from or previously from alt = alt etc)

And bo7 AK format = best

If there was a team league in SEA, i'd like this idea. But our team and other teams have worked hard to secure sponsors and support our players, it's hardly fair if suddently we cannot play in any team leagues when we are the ones trying to push esports by sponsoring players.

On a side note, if this was to happen, there wouldn't be an nGen team, Mafia is TA, iaguz is aLt and Jaz is Infi atm.

[Roz]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

Clans =/= teams, so as this is a clan league i feel that players in sponsored teams should play under their clans and not their sponsored teams(xgking = ngen, the 50 sponsored players from or previously from alt = alt etc)

And bo7 AK format = best

I kinda feel the same way as well because having redarchon and jazbas on other teams for this league doesn't seem too right to us. I mean yes i understand the whole idea and the idea of having more teams that can compete with each other but at the same time, the whole thing is more catered towards the "sponsored teams" as clans competing wouldn't be represented properly with a lot of their key players playing for someone else.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Roz

I kinda feel the same way as well because having redarchon and jazbas on other teams for this league doesn't seem too right to us. I mean yes i understand the whole idea and the idea of having more teams that can compete with each other but at the same time, the whole thing is more catered towards the "sponsored teams" as clans competing wouldn't be represented properly with a lot of their key players playing for someone else.

Sponsored teams are what our scene should want to support, its how we will grow, and denying them the ability to play in team events does the complete opposite of this. Sorry that your clan is a weaker as a result, feel free to get a few sponsors tho and do the same thing yourself, otherwise other teams with money and gear will be more attractive to players.

Quick Comments

Zealo:

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Sponsored teams are what our scene should want to support, its how we will grow, and denying them the ability to play in team events does the complete opposite of this. Sorry that your clan is a weaker as a result, feel free to get a few sponsors tho and do the same thing yourself, otherwise other teams with money and gear will be more attractive to players.

I'm with Benji on this, but that said at the end of the day it should be the sponsor's choice where the league goes In my opinion though if we don't promote the sponsored teams and players is there any real point? I think we can all agree that we want the SEA scene to grow and the only way this will happen is if we put our big name players (read:sponsored) out there competing against each other.

[Roz]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Sponsored teams are what our scene should want to support, its how we will grow, and denying them the ability to play in team events does the complete opposite of this. Sorry that your clan is a weaker as a result, feel free to get a few sponsors tho and do the same thing yourself, otherwise other teams with money and gear will be more attractive to players.

You don't have to be so defensive about these kinda topics... what we are getting at is, if we call this a CLAN league, we should probably stick to clans. An example would be TCL, they had no idea you guys aren't a clan and if they had known, they wouldn't have asked you guys compete in it.

Quick Comments

NDG.Stitch:

[Zealo]

well the main point is to have a SEA league for the top teams (the sponsored teams) to compete in...

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

yeap, name is just a slight technicality

[lolwut]

I'm not sure if Mineski is one of the weaker teams right now....

[deL]

hy not let them revive herocraft but they are just playing for fun and are inelligible for the prizemoney, that way we know they are really playing to contribute to the event and clan scene rather than wanting to cash in on a prize tourney without putting in the effort to be part of a clan ;D

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

hy not let them revive herocraft but they are just playing for fun and are inelligible for the prizemoney, that way we know they are really playing to contribute to the event and clan scene rather than wanting to cash in on a prize tourney without putting in the effort to be part of a clan ;D

But then they'd be taking points away from teams in the running to win it.

[inFeZa]

Lets just have a giant FFA instead. BGH anyone?

[mOOnGLaDe]

i guess it depends on what the person sponsoring it wants :O whether they want only these old clans that are *established* or they want some of the top players participating too with their newly formed teams/ partnering with established teams

theres no effort in joining a clan its just some of us train else where so we can perform internationally so we arent as social, so i think thats pretty lame to say ^o^

[PiG]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

i guess it depends on what the person sponsoring it wants :O whether they want only these old clans that are *established* or they want some of the top players participating too with their newly formed teams/ partnering with established teams

theres no effort in joining a clan its just some of us train else where so we can perform internationally so we arent as social, so i think thats pretty lame to say ^o^

Haha yeah this is true I was just being a douche. :P

[iM MaFia]

if we just had SEASL instead of CL none of these problems would have occured, and there weren't even that many more voters for CL>SL

Quick Comments

NDG.Stitch:

Couldn't agree more on this!

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by xGKingMafia

if we just had SEASL instead of CL none of these problems would have occured, and there weren't even that many more voters for CL>SL

I love you tim

[nGenLight]

So hard to satisfy everybody!

[ZergGirl]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

So hard to satisfy everybody!

*anybody

'Cry some more, weak little babies'

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by Bigbird

So GLaDe goes out with MiTH 0-3 and someone playing really well and about to AK for his team then Bang, GLaDe delivers a swift 4-0 rape it kind of negates an achievement for another player.....also this league would be brilliant to see some obviously quite good but lesser known players strut their stuff

You must have missed the part about it being 5 Bo3s and not an all-kill format.

[NvRossi]

this is getting ridonculous

[ROOT`iaguz]

WHY ARE WE YELLiNG!

[crAzerk]

WHY ARE WE YELLiNG!

You forgot to capitalize your 'i'.

[NvRossi]

i believe he did this to counteract the anti caps lock sheezy. if you write everything in caps nirvana made it so it all becomes lowercase.

[cRSenSei]

I agree that mineski is not one of the weakest teams in that lineup.

[ETL.Santi]

I think for moonglade is ok, but who cares about tgun that guy is not even that good. So who cares if he plays for mineski, bad luck for them to get the average top sea player and not the good guy.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	trying too hard bro
	mGGDrGooSe:	This doesn't add anything to the debate
	aLtShortizz:	Dont post at all, just dont.
	Synizta:	tgun > you

[SLCN.NXZ]

Originally Posted by Santi

I think for moonglade is ok, but who cares about tgun that guy is not even that good. So who cares if he plays for mineski, bad luck for them to get the average top sea player and not the good guy.

Not necessary mate. However I agree Tgun is worse than GlaDe but in the same way Mineski is a much stronger team then MiTH.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by Santi

I think for moonglade is ok, but who cares about tgun that guy is not even that good. So who cares if he plays for mineski, bad luck for them to get the average top sea player and not the good guy.

Standard Santi, bming me at every chance

[crAzerk]

i believe he did this to counteract the anti caps lock sheezy. If you write everything in caps nirvana made it so it all becomes lowercase.

oh! That's cool! I never knew that! Guess i don't yell enough (this message is entirely in caps if it becomes lower case you know why)

[TAScarecrow]

tgun and glade asking for a fair % of the prizemoney if their teams win just seems wrong. Last SEACL there was a rule against this sort of merc'ing, now nirvana wants them to play for teams they're completely unaffiliated with and allow them access to prizemoney as well?

I think this would also run better as primarily a clan league with any sponsored teams that are big enough to participate doing so. Catering this for xgking (3 players) will make for a shitty format (even worse if glade is on a team), instead maybe get the smaller sponsored teams to merge for this or take players from their feeder clans (e.g. maybe SQLTKing and TArcMSI)

Herocraft isn't a bad alternative, especially if it's a larger format.

@Sensei it was just an example, half of King's lineup used to be TA too. I haven't forgotten you guys :P

Quick Comments

	cRSenSei:	wtf SQLTKing.. half of SQLT's lineup is from TA bro!
	TAEdgE:	anti-sensei train
	TAriiChard:	ANTI SENSEI TRAAAAIN!

[nirvAnA]

its hard to please everyone, let me explain my rationale for the way the format is such at the moment.

1. we want moonglade and tgun to play in this league, hence this "mercenary" solution. moonglade just casually streaming by himself already gets more viewers then all our other events except the masters cup. people want to watch moonglade. we want more viewers to keep sponsors happy. if a better solution comes up, ill use it.

herocraft is not viable imo because having a "clanless" or "mercenary" team will mean 1 legitimate team is axed. a merc team has no sponsors and its different from what we are trying to accomplish, getting sponsored teams / players air time and keeping their sponsors happy - giving them more reason to sponsor other players or increase their budget. Or getting other strong teams like SPR attention so they can get a good sponsor - all of which will help develop the esports scene in SEA by allowing players to commit more and take their game to the next level because of the support they are getting.

that is why "mercenaries" was allowed, moonglade,tgun = more viewers and the teams / esports scene has a higher chance to develop.

2. pro teams / clan issue - we want to promote the pro teams to grow the scene, hence theres a priority to teams over clans in the case players belong to both. we want to keep sponsors of teams happy with a major event. at the same time, not including clans would mean alot of top players with no "team" or that are too small like TargA, iceiceice, yoonyj, rev etc will be excluded.

thats is why this pro team+clan format is chosen, to include virtually every top player in SEA so the league is as exciting as possible, which will lead to more viewers.

3. TCL format of 4-5 matches. not very in depth yes but its to accommodate teams like SQLT and xGking who have few players.

thats is why this match day format is chosen, so smaller sized teams with 3-4 players who are still growing will not be so handicapped.

everything was thought about before being suggested. threads like these were made so we can get more ideas and incorporate the better solutions that others have suggested. the admins are reading what is said here and will consider various viewpoints before coming up with the final format. we cannot please everyone but we will do our best to come up with an optimal format based on the circumstances we face.

it may sound like theres alot of disagreement but that happened in our first SEASL#1 too and that went out to be a huge success regardless of many of the "disagreements" with most ending up being the right decisions anyway. so I hope people don't take this "negativity" in this thread the wrong way, but instead look forward to the SEACL #2 and are excited we FINALLY have a nice league to play in, its been such a long wait!

JoFritz has sent me the money already and registrations will open soon!

Quick Comments

	Zealo:	well said
	TAriiChard:	I don't like this
	Uglymutt:	Well reasoned

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

1. we want moonglade and tgun to play in this league, hence this "mercenary" solution. moonglade just casually streaming by himself already gets more viewers then all our other events except the masters cup. people want to watch moonglade. we want more viewers to keep sponsors happy. if a better solution comes up, ill use it.

herocraft is not viable imo because having a "clanless" or "mercenary" team will mean 1 legitimate team is axed. a merc team has no sponsors and its different from what we are trying to accomplish, getting sponsored teams / players air time and keeping their sponsors happy - giving them more reason to sponsor other players or increase their budget. Or getting other strong teams like SPR attention so they can get a good sponsor - all of which will help develop the esports scene in SEA by allowing players to commit more and take their game to the next level because of the support they are getting.

that is why "mercenaries" was allowed, moonglade,tgun = more viewers and the teams / esports scene has a higher chance to develop.

you've got to be joking

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by TARossi

you've got to be joking

Care to elaborate?

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by FaDeBadger

Care to elaborate?

just expressing that im against what he is saying basically. I dont like the justifications of his argument and the direction this tournament is going.

[ROOT`iaguz]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

1. we want moonglade and tgun to play in this league, hence this "mercenary" solution. moonglade just casually streaming by himself already gets more viewers then all our other events except the masters cup. people want to watch moonglade. we want more viewers to keep sponsors happy. if a better solution comes up, ill use it.

herocraft is not viable imo because having a "clanless" or "mercenary" team will mean 1 legitimate team is axed. a merc team has no sponsors and its different from what we are trying to accomplish, getting sponsored teams / players air time and keeping their sponsors happy - giving them more reason to sponsor other players or increase their budget. Or getting other strong teams like SPR attention so they can get a good sponsor - all of which will help develop the esports scene in SEA by allowing players to commit more and take their game to the next level because of the support they are getting.

that is why "mercenaries" was allowed, moonglade,tgun = more viewers and the teams / esports scene has a higher chance to develop.

!

And I don't like this reasoning because a team that has Glade could get attention for stuff the team did not actually do. If a shitty team can get first because Glade just happens to beat everybody no problem then how is that good for that team?

Pretty good for Glade though.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	akky:

[xpaperclip]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

moonglade just casually streaming by himself already gets more viewers then all our other events except the masters cup. people want to watch moonglade.

While I agree Glade certainly has pulling power, the very exception of Masters Cup (especially this past one) demonstrates the underlying reason - the TL stream list. Benji has also discussed this before. Getting on the TL stream list is crucial for getting viewers. As far as I'm aware, the immediate past Masters Cup didn't particularly have any player-based advertising, but the very fact that there were no other events on at the time on TL lead to larger viewership. In fact, if I recall, the reason I found out about sc2sea.com was the SEA v Ret showmatch series.

---

I don't want to speak for anyone, but as I said in the chatbox today, I don't believe people are demanding their view be the one ultimately implemented, but are instead just expressing their views so it can be heard and taken into consideration so the league can be a success.

Probably good early discussion for SEACL 3 too, right?

[TAEdgE]

I'm not liking where any of this is going

[BaKaiNu]

I think the solution is to leave tgun and moonglade be mercenaries and see which clan would hire them. The details can be sorted out between the team and the mercenaries, this can be applied to other players in smaller teams as well. Both tgun and moonglade could get better offers which may benefit themselves while the team get their services. I think for us to grow, we should not put so much control over the scene and let it sort itself out. We should be the facilitator, not the dictator.

[ROOT`iaguz]

I really don't feel comfortable with that idea because the team that bids the highest amount of the prize pool gets Glade. There's no other way of negotiating and Glade is NOT joining any current SEA team/clan.

Now I'm happy to have xGKingGlade but that's ******* stupid. Plus I don't think Timhe would appreciate it.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

exactly

[nirvAnA]

yea iaguz i am aware of that, it isnt a perfect solution. also its not all kill format and as you've said before glade isn't so invincible anymore!

do you have any suggestions on how else to include glade/tgun?

[TAEdgE]

I want to know why they want to play formally first. I have my suspicious for both, and i may have missed a post by them, but i'll ask this just out of personal whim:

@Andy and Brad - if you are allowed to play in this, but are not awarded prize money at the end, would you still play?

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by EdgE

I want to know why they want to play formally first. I have my suspicious for both, and i may have missed a post by them, but i'll ask this just out of personal whim:

@Andy and Brad - if you are allowed to play in this, but are not awarded prize money at the end, would you still play?

Neutral Standing edit.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	.
	syfChadMann:	no need to call people names - its not nice...
	NvRossi:	you have too high an opinion of yourself
	Champi:	dont **** with edge please

[ROOT`iaguz]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

This is such a pathetic post that you should feel ashamed.

As for this discussion, its not helping anyone.. decide on a format that aligns best with your long term goals for SEA please..

You're a bad person. Shut up.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

This is such a pathetic post that you should feel ashamed.

As for this discussion, its not helping anyone.. decide on a format that aligns best with your long term goals for SEA please..

-----------------------

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by EdgE

I want to know why they want to play formally first. I have my suspicious for both, and i may have missed a post by them, but i'll ask this just out of personal whim:

@Andy and Brad - if you are allowed to play in this, but are not awarded prize money at the end, would you still play?

Yes I would. I'll also not play if it'll stop people from bitching.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Atta boy
	nirvAnA:
	FaDeBadger:
	TAEdgE:	i love you sorry for my harsh wording and character judgement
	TAriiChard:
	ToRSmotPokingFish:

[Nemo]

Rossi, Edge, Riichard, this subject is not really my business as I'm not actor in this, but from a exterior point of view, I don't understand your opinion because it lacks arguments.

What I understand from Nirvana point of view is :

• Glade is popular, let's use him to get more viewers = more money in this
• Having all the top players in it, even if they don't have a team that can compete will make it more popular then => more money

More money => better for the community as a whole even if for the guys that already belongs to top teams it will be harder to get the prizes.


Are your arguments => It won't bring more money and it's unfair for those who already are in top teams ? In this case, could you explain the first one (as the second one is clear like that) ?

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Rossi, Edge, Riichard, this subject is not really my business as I'm not actor in this, but from a exterior point of view, I don't understand your opinion because it lacks arguments.

What I understand from Nirvana point of view is :

• Glade is popular, let's use him to get more viewers = more money in this
• Having all the top players in it, even if they don't have a team that can compete will make it more popular then => more money

More money => better for the community as a whole even if for the guys that already belongs to top teams it will be harder to get the prizes.


Are your arguments => It won't bring more money and it's unfair for those who already are in top teams ? In this case, could you explain the first one (as the second one is clear like that) ?

Well firstly i haven't presented an argument Nemo, i said i don't like where this is going and i ment the thread in general - i have my disagreements with format and mercenaries in certain areas, but just the discussion itself. I just said 'it's hard to find an agreement that everyone will enjoy' in my own silly way

I'll post later when i can form points, as i have tried not to look too much into it yet.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Thanks for the precision :)

[mOOnGLaDe]

This sounds like too much trouble count me out, sorry mith

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

This sounds like too much trouble count me out, sorry mith

awww poor guy..

tbh - glade playing in the league brings more exposure to the league. He is with out a doubt the most well known and acknowledged SEA SC2 player. Sponsors of this league are more likely to back it because of draw cards such as glade and tgun. Not including them only reduces the marketability of the league.

However, this is a team league, and thus is a competition between teams and their players. So introducing mercenaries runs against this logic - as it has been expressed by many.

So there are two sides to the whole thing... a better bigger league - or a fair legit league of clan players only.
Which does the best for the league overall....?
perhaps a few players are against it because they don't wish to face glade & tgun?...

However there is nothing stopping glade from joining a social clan and dominating the tier 2 competition?

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Rossi, Edge, Riichard, this subject is not really my business as I'm not actor in this, but from a exterior point of view, I don't understand your opinion because it lacks arguments.

What I understand from Nirvana point of view is :

• Glade is popular, let's use him to get more viewers = more money in this
• Having all the top players in it, even if they don't have a team that can compete will make it more popular then => more money

More money => better for the community as a whole even if for the guys that already belongs to top teams it will be harder to get the prizes.


Are your arguments => It won't bring more money and it's unfair for those who already are in top teams ? In this case, could you explain the first one (as the second one is clear like that) ?

my point of view is that money should not be the primary factor for decisions regarding this league

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Thanks for the precision :)

[TAScarecrow]

I still think a 'Team 8' led by Glade would be the best solution (as the majority vote wants them to play in some capacity, just not necessarily as mercs). It's a great way of showcasing some of SEA's top unsponsored players to the sponsors of current and future teams. Glade can pick out some unknowns and bring them into the spotlight. Instead of getting rid of any tier 1 team maybe just merge any 2 of the smaller ones to allow a spot for a new Herocraft/Team 8/SlayerSesque team.

Hopefully this'll lead to a slightly deeper format too. It's hard to take a TCL Bo4 format seriously and will just reinforce impressions of SEA as the minnow server. Basically I feel compromising the tourney for 3-4 player teams is not the best move; if such teams want to participate (i doubt they'll sit out whilst other bigger sponsors get coverage) they can pick up 1-2 extra's or form a one off alliance.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	I like this
	NvRossi:	me 2
	Maynarde:
	:	me 3
	syfChadMann:	me 4
	Frogmite:	me tex
	Champi:	best solution, go with it
	Fadey:
	ToRSmotPokingFish:
	simon:
	breadfan:
	SLCN.NXZ:	Best thing that ever happened to this thread
	TADivinity:	Yes.
	MooZfY:	CCCCCCC-COMBO BREAKER

[Frogmite]

I don't think that forcing Glade or Tgun to play for a clan is a good idea.
First, clans will prefer their players to play, i don't think any team manager will accept to sub out one of his player to sub in a very good player, but not part of the clan.
Second thing, you need both Tgun and Glade to win their games if they want to win a game, once again there are a lot of very good players in SEA able to beat at least one of them. So they can make their own team, i am not sure they are guaranteed to win the league.

For the format, 4 players, maybe 5 max is more than enough for a clan league. Keep in mind that the league will run for 2 month, and to get 4 players playing every game you need to register at least 8. Unless you're a pro, we all have last minutes events/exams that makes us unavailable for games. If your clan has too many players then you can register a second team.

Last point, and maybe the most important, we all have to consider that events such as tournaments or leagues cannot happen without sponsors, so yes, the number of viewers is very important. If we don't give a good coverage with this league, who will sponsor next season? Sponsors are just interested about viewers.

[NvJazBas]

damn I'm really late.. My opinion is, why is MITH and Mineski the weakest teams..? I look at all 8 teams and I find it pretty stacked.

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

good point

[aLtMrFool]

I agree with some of what people have said above. If moonglade can get us more viewership and increase the prize pool potentially, why not? It's good for the long term (long term vs short term yada yada yada) and I seriously don't get what is wrong with having someone with higher skill than the rest of SEA (moonglade) to be playing in this tournament. Are you telling everyone "hey, since this guy is so dominating, let's exclude him from our tournaments exclusively so that we can have an excuse not to improve to that standard." ? Maybe that's not what some people may mean and I'm just speculating but players with higher skill should serve as a motivation for us to improve rather than an excuse for us to stagnate our skill in SEA?

True , this MAY happen - > Season #2, moonglade powerhouses through a few teams for (team i dont know what) and helps them win the championship.

1: Teams who wishes to attract viewerships/notice from international communities can train harder BEFORE season #2 to have a chance against moonglade--> Say if you beat moonglade, people will be like woah, there are teams in SEA who can beat moonglade etc etc. I dont need to elaborate do i?

2: After the season, being stomped by moonglade can also serve as a motivation for some to practise hard enough to actually reach his standard.

You see, what most people are trying to do by including glade/tgun is not primarily because of money. There are reasons beyond that that reaches out more into the long term for the SEA community more than in the short term. I can understand that in the short term, moonglade and tgun will probably roflstomp (sorry for my language) most players in SEA. But that should not serve as an excuse for players in SEA to not work hard. Imagine what the rest of the international community will think of SEA as a community if word of such controversy goes out ( note : It doesn't even have to be true for it to have an impact on the SEA community).

I'm not suggesting that moonglade and tgun plays permanently as mercs for the rest of SEACL seasons. This is, from the suggestion of many, a temporary solution and should NOT be adopted for future seasons.

This may sound blunt but : Please remove MVP/NesTea from GSL during the 6 seasons of GSL where they dominated because I don't want to work hard to beat them.

If someone like this wants to be a pro-gamer, /sigh.

Again, I don't mean that anyone thinks this way, I just mean in the possibility that anyone thinks that way as a sponsored / pro-gamer, shame on you. And sorry for being blunt, I am tired after a long 3 days of 24-hours duty and right now I've got things to attend to and I cant think of any other way to put it across.

Again, I might be wrong, feel free to shoot me down if I'm wrong.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by aLtMrFool

I agree with some of what people have said above. If moonglade can get us more viewership and increase the prize pool potentially, why not? It's good for the long term (long term vs short term yada yada yada) and I seriously don't get what is wrong with having someone with higher skill than the rest of SEA (moonglade) to be playing in this tournament. Are you telling everyone "hey, since this guy is so dominating, let's exclude him from our tournaments exclusively so that we can have an excuse not to improve to that standard." ? Maybe that's not what some people may mean and I'm just speculating but players with higher skill should serve as a motivation for us to improve rather than an excuse for us to stagnate our skill in SEA?

True , this MAY happen - > Season #2, moonglade powerhouses through a few teams for (team i dont know what) and helps them win the championship.

1: Teams who wishes to attract viewerships/notice from international communities can train harder BEFORE season #2 to have a chance against moonglade--> Say if you beat moonglade, people will be like woah, there are teams in SEA who can beat moonglade etc etc. I dont need to elaborate do i?

2: After the season, being stomped by moonglade can also serve as a motivation for some to practise hard enough to actually reach his standard.

You see, what most people are trying to do by including glade/tgun is not primarily because of money. There are reasons beyond that that reaches out more into the long term for the SEA community more than in the short term. I can understand that in the short term, moonglade and tgun will probably roflstomp (sorry for my language) most players in SEA. But that should not serve as an excuse for players in SEA to not work hard. Imagine what the rest of the international community will think of SEA as a community if word of such controversy goes out ( note : It doesn't even have to be true for it to have an impact on the SEA community).

I'm not suggesting that moonglade and tgun plays permanently as mercs for the rest of SEACL seasons. This is, from the suggestion of many, a temporary solution and should NOT be adopted for future seasons.

This may sound blunt but : Please remove MVP/NesTea from GSL during the 6 seasons of GSL where they dominated because I don't want to work hard to beat them.

If someone like this wants to be a pro-gamer, /sigh.

Again, I don't mean that anyone thinks this way, I just mean in the possibility that anyone thinks that way as a sponsored / pro-gamer, shame on you. And sorry for being blunt, I am tired after a long 3 days of 24-hours duty and right now I've got things to attend to and I cant think of any other way to put it across.

Again, I might be wrong, feel free to shoot me down if I'm wrong.

I like what you are trying to say but you aren't correct with saying excluding glade and tgun means we aren't going to be motivated or anything like that. . The other tournament he wasn't allowed in, SEASL, was very controversial because of his exclusion. I personally at the start felt bad about glade not being allowed in, but of course in the end i probably ended up happier about it :P. Thing is, people have caught up to GLaDe. Your argument works about 6+ months ago, but now people can take games off of GLaDe. It still doesn't change the fact that glade is favored vs probably every single player, and when there are ace matches or +2 point matches, it's such an advantage competitively. I want SEA to get exposure but i want a fair and fun clan league where the clan that plays the best wins, not wins because the inclusion of one of SEA's best made them better.

I personally like Scarecrow's idea FYI .

SEA has played in tournaments with both for ages, and those tournaments are 1v1 tournaments where you only care about the result you get. In a team league, if anything, you care less about glade and tgun and more about the team as a whole (if it's non-all kill.) if a team is artificially enhanced and wins at the end, that team gets the glory and having such great players to help them for free just does not seem fair for other teams just because they managed to get a stronger team.

We all wanted a team league first and foremost for FUN, and the competitive aspect of who is the best and seeing how teams are going is a very fun part of it. People seem to be forgetting that. That's the issue with glade and tgun - the arguable 2 best players in SEA who (not saying anything here) want to play for fun or money or exposure or whatever. The thing is, they never took an interest in SEA clans before now and suddenly get to join the 'weakest team' which really aren't that weak - Mineski is really strong and MiTH is surprisingly strong even if low on men. The biggest picture is as you and most are arguing is the exposure for SEA, the sponsors etc etc, but the core of what people wanted was fun. A fun league where maximum people can compete in as fair a competition as possible. I do think glade and tgun fit in, but joining another team and taking away from the legitimate competitive aspect just irks me.

Team Herocraft ftw!

edit: this is just part of my personal point competitively. If TA or AMSI somehow wins this, i wouldn't personally mind if there was no money as long was it was a fun, well run league. Money obviously gives incentive to play and practice.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

[NvRossi]

^i dont think anyone thinks that way

[Rockstar]

my 2 cents: People shouldn't be treated any different because they're popular or good.

If they're not in a SEA clan why are they competing in a SEA clan tournament? Viewer-ship or not it's not a good decision when it comes to the entire theme of the tournament.

Thats not to say they can't play. Perhaps they should start and/or join another team properly in order to compete. Then there wouldn't be any issue at all and the rules/integrity of the entire competition are upheld.

It's quite simple really. This is a tournament designed to find the best SEA clan. The requirement should be that you are a part of a SEA clan.

Quick Comments

simon:

exactly

[nirvAnA]

Heres a solution that came to mind building on scarecrows suggestions.

MiTH merges with inFi for SEA CL #2. This makes sense because RedArchon and Indy are from infi already. Maya, jump and Fah are not but can be included. Not sure if they(MiTH) will be happy with it but this will make room for "herocraft" to play in the league which will be glade + tgun + anyone else glade decides to hand pick for his team. the players must not already be in a clan / team in Tier 1. I don't see any cons except MiTH might not like it. this also makes infi one of the top favourites to win now with TargA, iceiceice, RedArchon, rev and kim jong roz.

if their team win half their winnings go back to SEA CL #3. This makes sense because glade/tgun didn't want much $$ in the first place they just wanted to participate and be involved with the SEA scene. And if their team wins, well they are already well known so theres really no point from a "sponsors of teams" benefit perspective, but it will help make SEA CL #3 happen, the end result being "sponsors of team" benefit from exposure cause its easier to start one more season if you already have half the prize pool taken care off.

Format: changed to best of 5 in view of glade/tgun being on the same team, the previous format would mean they 2 alone could win all their games every week and thier team would be top and that would not be fair. so 5 players would be needed each week, 5 sets of 1v1s. so xGking, SQLT and herocraft all have to pick up more players.

Because of the teams own sponsor limitations and nature of this, the players will probably not receive the full benefits from xgking/sqlt and be on a "trial run" of some sort, essentially mercs but then again not exactly because if they perform well a full offer as a legitimate player of the team should be offered. Also you should not attempt to take players already from a team aka Pokerface(SPR), Bielsko (aLt) because by that principle whats to stop you from "Trialing" glade or tgun?

So this is where the managers skill or "eye for talent" really comes in. For e.g its not right to say you're a good manager if all you do is snatch the already established top players from clans, by throwing money at them - because anyone with a willing sponsor can do that. but theres support to your argument as a good manager if you groomed or picked up unknown players in the scene, helped them find a team, put them into the spotlight or nurtured them into top players. Not only is it good for developing the scene, its far more respectable and something to be proud of.

the rest of the teams seem to have adequate number of players.

Thoughts / comments ? As soon as its resolved we can open registration.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	actually like this
	NvJazBas:	I like it
	TAScarecrow:	sounds good
	Champi:	you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up <3
	FaDeBadger:	Love it

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Heres a solution I have in mind building on scarecrows suggestions.

MiTH merges with inFi for SEA CL #2. This makes sense because RedArchon and Indy are from infi already. Maya, jump and Fah are not but can be included. Not sure if they(MiTH) will be happy with it but this will make room for "herocraft" to play in the league which will be glade + tgun + anyone else glade decides to hand pick for his team. the players must not already be in a clan / team in Tier 1. I don't see any cons except MiTH might not like it. this also makes infi favourites to win now with TargA, iceiceice, RedArchon and Rev.

if their team win half their winnings go back to SEA CL #3. This makes sense because glade/tgun didn't want much $$ in the first place they just wanted to participate and be involved with the SEA scene. And if their team wins, well they are already well known so theres really no point from a "sponsors of teams" benefit perspective, but it will help make SEA CL #3 happen and for the league to continue, the end result being "sponsors of team" benefit from exposure cause its easier to start one more season.

Format: maybe change it to best of 5 in view of glade/tgun being on the same team meaning 5 players each week. so xGking, SQLT and herocraft all have to pick up more players. the rest of the teams seem to have adequate number of players.

Thoughts / comments ? As soon as its resolved we can open registration.

Nice... Glade ermm.. I'm available.. call me.. ;-)

But seriously.. good compromise.. let them play..

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

this also makes infi one of the top favourites to win now with TargA, iceiceice, RedArchon and Rev.
.

You forgot Roz

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	i loled :D well done
	nirvAnA:	lol sorry forgot again! added!
	TAEdgE:
	syfChadMann:
	TAriiChard:

[NvPinder]

Of the 5 major aus e-sports teams that currently have sc2 teams (TTesports, sqlTt, arcMSI, xGKing, immunity), literally only 1 has a team of 4 active players, so you're going to have to come up with a seriously spastic format to cater to them, meanwhile of the 12 active players I count in those teams(pig, ninja, hut, sensai, yang, edge, deth, rossi, jazbas, mafia, iaguz & yoon), 10 are currently on clans that would all field a team to play anyway, with hut/iaguz easily slipping into 'hero craft' or w/e anyway.

It's not as if these players don't get to represent their sponsors, casters can easily mention the teams the players play for when the game begins. Last SEACL was exclusively for CLANS, and arcMSI was actually prohibited from entering as arcmsi (despite our entire lineup being on TA anyway...), it just confuses me why you'd have a sudden switch around of trying to change it into something it wasn't to begin with. If you want to run a team league, then start running a team league, just don't call it something it isn't.

Quick Comments

	NvJazBas:	Damn..I like this too.. +_+
	TAEdgE:	you're poo
	Fadey:
	syfChadMann:

[Benji]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Of the 5 major aus e-sports teams that currently have sc2 teams (TTesports, sqlTt, arcMSI, xGKing, immunity), literally only 1 has a team of 4 active players, so you're going to have to come up with a seriously spastic format to cater to them, meanwhile of the 12 active players I count in those teams(pig, ninja, hut, sensai, yang, edge, deth, rossi, jazbas, mafia, iaguz & yoon), 10 are currently on clans that would all field a team to play anyway, with hut/iaguz easily slipping into 'hero craft' or w/e anyway.

It's not as if these players don't get to represent their sponsors, casters can easily mention the teams the players play for when the game begins. Last SEACL was exclusively for CLANS, and arcMSI was actually prohibited from entering as arcmsi (despite our entire lineup being on TA anyway...), it just confuses me why you'd have a sudden switch around of trying to change it into something it wasn't to begin with. If you want to run a team league, then start running a team league, just don't call it something it isn't.

EGMC format solves that issue, can use as few as 3 players or as many as 6 every clanwar (Provided the ace is required)

Quick Comments

	NvPinder:	see what i said about "seriously spastic format".
	Zealo:	INCLUDE 2V2!!!

[Eddie]

Love it Nirvana!

Address some issues some people had, myself included.

Glade and Tgun not jumping on board established teams, tipping the scales slightly.

Can the established clans beat the 'sc2sea mercenaries'?

Up to MiTH/inFi i guess...

[nirvAnA]

chill guys or theres gonna be an edge vs azz showmatch. actually, why not?

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:
	NvRossi:	no

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

chill guys or theres gonna be an edge vs azz showmatch. actually, why not?

Neutral standing regarding this.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	syfChadMann:	good point..
	ROOT`iaguz:	People like you are the reason God doesn't want to talk to us anymore
	nirvAnA:	damnit my shit stirring failed
	TAriiChard:	^
	NvJazBas:	T_T I was hoping to ask him to PLEASE open forge expand instead of gateway nexus for once..

[TAEdgE]

-----------------------------

[crAzerk]

So this is where the managers skill or "eye for talent" really comes in. For e.g its not right to say you're a good manager if all you do is snatch the already established top players from clans, by throwing money at them - because anyone with a willing sponsor can do that. but theres support to your argument as a good manager if you groomed or picked up unknown players in the scene, helped them find a team, put them into the spotlight or nurtured them into top players. Not only is it good for developing the scene, its far more respectable and something to be proud of.

Am I the only one who noticed the subtle dig in this paragraph? Showmatch!

Anw when is this slated to begin? Frogmite originally said Feb or something right but from what it seems like it could start in a few weeks or less.

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

yeh the eye for talent made me laugh :P

[Benji]

So this is where the managers skill or "eye for talent" really comes in. For e.g its not right to say you're a good manager if all you do is snatch the already established top players from clans, by throwing money at them - because anyone with a willing sponsor can do that. but theres support to your argument as a good manager if you groomed or picked up unknown players in the scene, helped them find a team, put them into the spotlight or nurtured them into top players. Not only is it good for developing the scene, its far more respectable and something to be proud of.

These kinds of players are high risk. Safer bet is to sign players that are constantly performing well Clans usually pickup these players and groom them for us :P Until there are more teams and more demand for players, its just how its going to happen.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...

oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.

jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.

We do this voluntary and are looking for the best solution because we want to make the best tournament for the community. We could have just made a bunch of final rules decided by ourselves it would be far easier and save all this trouble and everyone would still play in it anyway. Instead we went out of our way to do this to gather feedback - we are not your servants scurrying around "pitching" shit hoping one meets your liking and we dont owe you anything. i'm frankly very tired of people taking us for granted and the sense of entitlement some people have that lead them to make comments like the above is sickening.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	Agree 100%
	Maynarde:	Some of us work time. No one gets a cent for all this work. A "thanks" is little to ask..
	Frogmite:	nirv saving e-sport
	aLtMrFool:	^ Most people won't understand till they're the ones actually organising it
	Bash:
	ToR.Arnor:	100% agree,
	:	Counter-rep to HteD unnecessary bad rep
	ToRSmotPokingFish:
	Reere:
	Imperial:	lold
	EveVendetta:	glad you made it clear. some people need that reminding.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.

jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.

Write a fuckin' simple plan song you emo. If your ideas are shit we're going to call you out on it just like we do to everyone else, harden the **** up and don't have a cry every time someone points out how dumb some of your ideas are.

Quick Comments

	HteD:
	ROOTPetraeus:	usad
	ToRSmotPokingFish:	no.....
	nirvAnA:	yea its exactly these attitude im talking about. we arent your servents
	Snx.FigJig:	no need for this
	EveMassacrisM:	.
	SLCN.NXZ:	Sometimes you go too far :(
	Imperial:	lold again
	EveVendetta:	Your portrait fits you well.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Write a fuckin' simple plan song you emo. If your ideas are shit we're going to call you out on it just like we do to everyone else, harden the **** up and don't have a cry every time someone points out how dumb some of your ideas are.

It wasn't that Champi pointed out a stupid idea, it's that he went and shit all over Nirvana saying every idea he's had has been retarded (except that one). It was a very poorly hidden insult in a compliment.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Nemo:	Exactly. Nirvana was entitled to be angry.

[PiG]

i feel like a stoned puppy after reading this thread. Honestly though props to Nirvana and everyone else who kept working at it until a solution was found. No idea how this thread managed to even vaguely stay on track!

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	I'm surprised too but glad nonetheless lol
	TAEdgE:	azz was mean to me too
	breadfan:	Drugs and pets are an entertaining mix

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by PiG

i feel like a stoned puppy after reading this thread. Honestly though props to Nirvana and everyone else who kept working at it until a solution was found. No idea how this thread managed to even vaguely stay on track!

How do you know what a stoned puppy feels like?

[Roz]

I mean I'm pretty sure most of inFi is willing to participate in this 1 way or another. With all the formats you mentioned, we'll still be playing whether we like it or not, so don't get me wrong there. The only thing I'm trying to say is I really don't think you should try to cater to the "sponsored teams". I like the new ideas listed on the last page or 2 more though. First of all, I really don't know who's sponsoring this league so I'm not going to comment on that but as for sponsors for the current teams, here's kinda how i feel. When you have mercs in the so called "weaker teams", then those sponsored teams will probably stronger than they actually are in terms of results. That itself already makes the league unfair. The supposedly strongest team might not actually be the team that's going to win because of it and the team that won it when they weren't suppose to will get a lot more exposure than they should and the team that should be getting it didn't. I'm not saying that glade or tgun will be willing it for sure but it definitely makes the chances of whatever team they play for higher. At the same time, clans or players that currently don't have sponsors certainly wouldn't mind sponsors in most cases. That causes a problem as well as their players will be put on several different teams + having mercs on some teams + having low number of players a week, it's a total misrepresentation of the clan itself and it doesn't help the clan at all. I understand that you are trying to help teams as well but clans are part of the "community" as well.

Another problem that I feel is that it kinda kills some of the fun out of it for us, I'm not too sure if it's the same for the other clans. I definitely want all our clan members to be competing in this together.

I don't know if I'm confusing you guys and I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything, just kinda trying to get my concern over to you guys. What I'm trying to get at here is you either go for a team league or you go for a clan league. I don't really like the idea of having both clans and teams mixed together and having clans lose some of their players to the teams.

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

[syfChadMann]

Why not have a Pro league - where only pro teams can play.. ala the Tier 1.. where there are prizes of $$ and all that goodness..Then Tier 2 where only clan affiliated players can play.. but allow Tier 1 players to play in both if they have the clan...

IMO a team league is not just about the competition, but the bonding of the clan/team and the sense of pride they can build in their success.. pride for their clans and the cheers of their clanmates from the streams.. vs the elitist Pro league that are small circles of players.

both types are awesome.. for different reasons.. the Pro league showcases the talent of the pro teams in SEA, where as the Clan league is that fun exciting grudge match style show down.

IMO
Tier 2 / players Clan league...
Tier 3 / CL
Tier 4 , & CL

Can even implement a rule that the first (1 or 2) players from each team have to be the lowest league represented in that tier... and only 1 or 2 tier 1 players can play each match.

I get the issue with players not wanting glade and tgun representing teams they are not part of, as it takes away some of the pride at stack - about the strongest team/clan in SEA.. that is the real prize, money aside - this league and all community leagues should be about fun, enjoyment and building the community.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by ChadMann

Why not have a Pro league - where only pro teams can play.. ala the Tier 1.. where there are prizes of $$ and all that goodness..Then Tier 2 where only clan affiliated players can play.. but allow Tier 1 players to play in both if they have the clan...

IMO a team league is not just about the competition, but the bonding of the clan/team and the sense of pride they can build in their success.. pride for their clans and the cheers of their clanmates from the streams.. vs the elitist Pro league that are small circles of players.

both types are awesome.. for different reasons.. the Pro league showcases the talent of the pro teams in SEA, where as the Clan league is that fun exciting grudge match style show down.

IMO
Tier 2 / players Clan league...
Tier 3 / CL
Tier 4 , & CL

Can even implement a rule that the first (1 or 2) players from each team have to be the lowest league represented in that tier... and only 1 or 2 tier 1 players can play each match.

I get the issue with players not wanting glade and tgun representing teams they are not part of, as it takes away some of the pride at stack - about the strongest team/clan in SEA.. that is the real prize, money aside - this league and all community leagues should be about fun, enjoyment and building the community.

isn't that exactly what nirvana (i think) proposed? or was i imagining that?

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Zealo

isn't that exactly what nirvana (i think) proposed? or was i imagining that?

Yeah it is.. basically - but I think the current play is to not permit Tier1 players to compete in Tier 2.
Which is silly.

There should be two different leagues for the new league.. a Pro league and a Clan league. Allow the best players to represent their clans - regardless of how stacked one team may or may not be, a Clan league is about players battling out to find out which clan has the drive, determination and skill to be the best. Not a place for mercenaries, as a 'Clan' league should only be players that represent that clan in each team.

where as the Pro league should be straight up, high level competitive play - for the prizes and the glory.

Tier 1 can use some small team format, whereas tier 2 can have a much larger format with many more players being involved. If there is one player that is always All-Killing cause they are a top GM/Pro player then good on them. That shows how strong that clan really is.. if the Clan only has one decent player, then the other clans against them need to work on the right sniper to take them out. Also the low league players first rule works in all Tiers (except for tier 1...), For example; Tier 2 teams vs, Bo7 - First two players from each team must be whereas the last two can be what ever mix of or that the team can field on the night.

idk, Hopefully a fair league for all is developed, but I do believe that Pro players should be able to represent their pro team, I think clans like TA would be highly affected by not being able to play in both Tiers. Their A team level players also in pro teams; MaFia, SenSei, yang, Rossi, deth, Pinder, EdgE, Light, Voices - all split onto 3 different teams.

Back on topic of the thread; Put tgun and glade into their own team that they can select players for - let them play and represent their own skill. While the extra, not-yet-pro-players that they add to their roster can use it as a proving ground to try and get more exposure.. and Perhaps a chance to play/practice with two of SEA's top Zergs. Why not have a tournament where 1st gets a spot on the Herocraft team?...

anyway, Can't wait to see how this all ends up.

[dippa]

*bangs head*

issues aside, that might be the longest response to a (positive) rep comment i've ever seen.

nevertheless, let's all play nicely. it's christmas for ****'s sake.

[cRSenSei]

So where does pig fit in with all of this? Since all teams need minimum of 5 players now. I think he fits in well with SQLTt since he already practices with us/joins our friday night team training stream. Nirvana?

[dippa]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.SenSei

So where does pig fit in with all of this? Since all teams need minimum of 5 players now. I think he fits in well with SQLTt since he already practices with us/joins our friday night team training stream. Nirvana?

i think pig was already a part of aLt

[SLCN.NXZ]

IMO the way this should go is pretty simple. Fact is, xGKing should not be able to participate if they do not have the required amount of players. Think back to GSTL where IM was not allowed to participate due to poor GSL showings outside of Losira, mvp and nestea. This should apply here. Only way for xGKing to participate is if they "merge" with another clan with similar levels of players. For example, the crux-ToR thing that happened for PDCL. That should be the way that xGKing participates, naturally that weakens infi, TA and aLt but it should be teams first imo. Unless there is a separation between the clans and teams (there can't be, not enough teams) xGKing will have to participate combined with other clan/s or player/s.

Similarly, MiTH and Mineski should instead be regarded as GlaDe-MiTH and tgun-Mineski. That way the league maintains it's legitimacy in the same way it would if crux-ToR won the PDCL. Say there was only 1 crux player, playing for ToR in the league and that crux player won all his games (assuming the format used in this league instead of AK format) and they end up winning the league. If the team is entered as crux-ToR its fine however if it was just ToR it raises the question of whether they could win without said crux player. That way GlaDe and tgun can participate but instead of it being MiTH won the league ("but glad ecarried them yada yada"), it should be GlaDe-MiTH won the league ("GlaDe carried-" "doesn't matter hes part of the "team"). With a simple name change the proposed solution is ideal.

This sort of solution could be applied to the teams issue as well. Have xGKing participate as X-player compined with xG. For example they recruit Strafe to play alongside them. Make the team name Strafe-xG. To an extent kind of like the oGs-TL partnership, except for the league only. You could almost treat it like the QIM in IPL incident by having 2 teams playing as one. TArcMSI seems fine to me, perhaps TA would prefer to play as just TA but that's their decision to make whether they would like to play as TA or arcMSI. Perhaps even have arcMSI play in "tier 1" and TA (no players from arcMSI) play in tier 2 or 3 if necessary.

My thoughts ^^, PiG should play for aLt, I guess he could play as TT and SQLT could join with him, depends what he decides to do. He should play for aLt though if he chooses to not play as Tt for the league.

[mOOnGLaDe]

well i dont know what tgun thinks of this but i am certainly not playing in this so i dont know why im still mentioned in the discussion

i'll make sure i make a clan and recruit some people for future tournaments so i can participate without trouble lol

may this league allow the sea community to prosper and grow!

Quick Comments

	deL:	Lone Wolf
	breadfan:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

well i dont know what tgun thinks of this but i am certainly not playing in this so i dont know why im still mentioned in the discussion

i'll make sure i make a clan and recruit some people for future tournaments so i can participate without trouble lol

may this league allow the sea community to prosper and grow!

This is sad... SEA Event without SEA's best player?...

sad that you feel that you can't participate in the league.. Maybe you should just sign up to a few CO's and punish everyone?.. Also, when you make that new clan - lemme know k?.. I DID just win the BSGCL :P and I wrote Hi in Pylons to you when you cast me v EdgE in Dox Cup... :P

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

well i dont know what tgun thinks of this but i am certainly not playing in this so i dont know why im still mentioned in the discussion

i'll make sure i make a clan and recruit some people for future tournaments so i can participate without trouble lol

may this league allow the sea community to prosper and grow!

I'm out too then, hopefully the league has smooth sailing from here on

Quick Comments

	deL:	Maybe we can come up with something else to include you and glade without the use of clans. State of Origin perhaps? :D
	breadfan:	gentleman!
	SLCN.NXZ:	@deL but QLD-GlaDe would always win :P

[inFeZa]

I am not playing in it either.
There, now the league is totally balanced.

Quick Comments

	deL:	If you're not playing I'm not watching.
	SLCN.NXZ:	Well played, good sir, well played indeed ^^

[nirvAnA]

After reading the comments and all the negativity in this thread I initially felt hosting this league was not worth the trouble, nobody was going to be happy in the end and all our efforts would go to waste - just like what glade & tgun felt when they withdrew their participation. But after contemplating scrapping the league - there was a surge of overwhelming support from the community in the chatbox. Tons of people came forward offering to help admin, help donate, and do whatever need to ensure the league runs. It goes to remind me that the most vocal people are never a representation of the majority, although it may look that way at times, and theres always a less vocal community supporting who just don't express themselves as much. It was also an overeaction by me who acted emotionally first by cancelling the league before thinking of the bigger picture, so i apologise for that.

Firstly, props to GLaDe and tgun, who came back and decided to put a team together so the prestige of the league remains. The Tier1 league will have the 8 teams as previously suggested and i will confirm with infeza about SQLT's participation.

Next, the behaviour by deth and pinder are unacceptable. You do not abuse the mods who volunteer their time to run the tournament when you do not agree with something. Why did tourniquet who was previously the most active mod stop doing stuff? Exactly because of this reason, the abuse he was getting from the vocal few and the unappreciativeness after all the hard work he put in. I hope this does not happen to Erasmus as well and thats why im always very adamant against mod abuse and cannot allow to continue.

You don't say xxx is stupid and therefore X must be stupid for coming up with such an idea. That doesn't help the league and it fills the thread with negativity. You do it the proper way by taking the time to write well thought out suggestion (without insults) like Scarecrow has done, and which I have went on to implement. Not only will you it be the respectful thing to do and promote proper discussion, theres a much higher chance that your suggestions will be listened to.

Also, this is not the first time this happened either, every single major tournament has been filled with negativity in large part to the both of you, the SEASL#1, the SEACL#1 , which otherwise could have been much happier events if they didn't have all that drama. Why is it always the two of you and nobody else? Why are you so different, do you believe you are so much smarter and that your opinions are always the right ones and superior to everyone else's? If not, why not just express yourself civilly without anger or vulgarities? It is supposed to be a discussion to make a better tournament so why turn it into personal attacks and fill the thread with negativity?

Now if nothing is done these attitudes will continue, as they have in SEASL#1 and SEACL#1 and now SEACL#2. And this time their actions resulted in GLaDe / tgun pulling out and nearly influencing me to scrap the league altogether. The only way I feel there will be a change of attitudes is to ban the both of them for one Season of SEACL, a meaningful ban that they will not forget and hopefully learn from. Show a basic amount of respect, we are not your servants and we do not owe you anything.

Registrations for SEACL#2 will begin tomorrow.

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:	props to keeping it going! :)
	AvPoker:	baller
	cure:	Well Said.
	SLCN.NXZ:	A Shining beacon of hope for those of lesser awesome and lower opinions <3<3<3
	Volition:	completely justified! we rly appreciate your hard work!
	breadfan:	100% correct, and I'm excited to see this come to fruition!
	ToRMaverick:	Being a quiet minority and realativly new community member I was surprised by the tone of this thread myself.

[deL]

I don't think everyone who says those things doesn't appreciate the work the admins put in - but they are seeing the glass half empty in that they'd rather see something not done until it can be done 100% properly rather than settling for an "inferior" event just because someone without the proper time to commit is available or whatever. Of course what constitutes doing the event or whatever it is properly is up for debate, but thoroughly discussing it could possibly avoid a lot of the negativity where changing ideas last-minute is concerned, which could make the public feel like decisions are changed willy-nilly regardless of behind-the-scenes planning and collaboration.

Basically, if you think through the format properly in the first place and give everyone a chance to air their concerns (whether they come across as negative or not) and don't flippantly change decisions where there's still a large amount of uncertainty these kinds of things could avoid getting personal. If your admins have to work let people know and have some for of mitigation because people are going to ask "why did you bother?" when an event is run less than ideally because it was rushed.

Quick Comments

	SLCN.NXZ:
	TAriiChard:

[Xavi]

The main change of this league, moreover arguing points have now been solved, now that glade and tgun are not competing in this league.

can we move forward with an elaborated version of season 1? considering that was the main idea of this league in the first place i'm guessing same stuff as season one, except bigger?

[nirvAnA]

its more of the way things are being said del. different opinions are suggestions are always encouraged just that theres no need to be a dick or give people shit about it. all my suggestions were thought of and thoroughly explained, and open for alternation should a better idea come up. the most recent format is mostly built on scarecrows suggestions. And i made lots of posts with this is X because of Y and Z reasons, taking the time to explain my decisions for the format. Rather than "X sucks and therefore you must be a retard for coming up with X"

on our site we have had threads full of constructiveness and positivity with differing opinions then we have some that become derailed into attacks on the mods or just become needlessly rude and i'd rather very much have sc2sea be a site like the former rather than the later. and id like to think this thread despite all the negativity actually produced a better tournament format, just that, why was all that negativity needed in the first place? hence the bans

Quick Comments

	SLCN.NXZ:
	JoFritzMD:

[AxSGRiM]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

its more of the way things are being said del. different opinions are suggestions are always encouraged just that theres no need to be a dick or give people shit about it. all my suggestions were thought of and thoroughly explained, and open for alternation should a better idea come up. the most recent format is mostly built on scarecrows suggestions. And i made lots of posts with this is X because of Y and Z reasons, taking the time to explain my decisions for the format. Rather than "X sucks and therefore you must be a retard for coming up with X"

on our site we have had threads full of constructiveness and positivity with differing opinions then we have some that become derailed into attacks on the mods or just become needlessly rude and i'd rather very much have sc2sea be a site like the former rather than the later. and id like to think this thread despite all the negativity actually produced a better tournament format, just that, why was all that negativity needed in the first place? hence the bans

+1, the whole point of being a community is to be together! Merry Christmas, and it sucks that I have to give someone else reputation before I give more to nirvAnA again.

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

gotta learn to share

[Maynarde]

I agree in the sense that if someone is unhappy with something, they are ALWAYS welcome in this forum to do so. It is a forum after all. I've seen it happen many times in this forum on many threads.

But you go about it a different way than flaming. DO NOT make personal attacks on people when you disagree with something they are say / trying to do, tell them you disagree and tell them why, it's not hard. It's how I would treat any body and how I would expect to be treated in return.

Glad to hear herocraft reviving, really want to see this go ahead

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[Delraich]

I agree with Nirvana. My view is that if you have a better idea: propose it, explain how it will work in a practical sense, say why it is better and then help/ join in to make it work.

If you are managing a team of volunteers the only thing you can really offer them is the pleasure of doing a good job and the pleasure they feel from giving back to the community. If, as a volunteer or any situation really, you need to push sh*t uphill or even worse get sh*t on for trying to help out, you really are not going to want to do that "job" anymore - which is a loss for everyone. I think that Nirvana is doing the right thing by standing up for his team.

Quick Comments

JoFritzMD:

[PiG]

I will most likely be playing for alt. If it wasn't for alt I'm not certain I would be playing and coaching Sc2 fulltime. Will finalize in the near future

Quick Comments

aLtShortizz:

Such a baller.

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

I have some valid input

Merry Christmas everyone, have a chill for a few days and relax and come to a conclusion sometime in the future

[Nemo]

Well Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA again ...

Last time it happend I told you 2 things:
First, never underestimate the support you have from 95% of the people here, the silent overwhelming majority. Whatever the subject, in the end of the day, it's the guy that has 400 threads on this forum, that writes tons of arguments in the discussion, organises a ton of things, has done 80% of the replay analysis in TGM section, has written multiple blogs, has written most of the TGM Manual and maintained it, has started this site in the first palce, has organised the T-Shirts printing, the sales of the Korean licenses, has done the advertising for the site, that has welcomed new people here (look in New to the forum thread), has been nice to everyone whatever his level and given 2nd and 3rd and 4rth and 5th ... and 10th chance to people even if they have offended him personally (Del), has encouraged all good initiatives here (how many guys like Frog or Maynarde or (Crayzerg) crAzerk (sorry mate) or Pig would have done what they did here without you encouraging them permanently ?), and number of things I can't list here, it's that guy against people who only say "I don't like this".

People are silent but they are not stupid and know the difference between hard work done for the community and "cool attitude". I'm glad you finally understood it. That will give you enough self-confidence in this support to just brush aside destructive comments from a few and not overreact : "You don't like it but don't give arguments as to why?" "Be certain I'm very sad about it. Now let's go back to work." In other words "The dog barks, the Caravan just passes" (don't know if this proverb exists in English).

Secondly, I proposed to open a topic on "free speech" on SC2sea since that's the pretext some TA members were giving to attack you. That would allow the silent majority to express their opinion about it.
TA guys taken individually are just normal people, not better or worse than any other. You find awesomely nice guys among them (Riichard, Edge ) and great community builders too (Del - wait, what did I just say ? ) and good people. But they have that painful habit of becoming bullies sometimes when they act as a group. Certain don't participate but there are always enough "followers of the Alpha males" or enough who defend blindly a member of the group that has received an ass kick, even deserved, that makes "TA" in a whole look like bullies. We all have experienced it and 90% of people not from TA (and I'm absolutely sure a large part of TA members too), don't like that at all. A thread putting things clearly on the table would allow people to tell them and could change things deeper than just banning every month some TA members when they cross the line.
Frankly that chronic mini-war does no good to the community, we should solve it once and for all, and the only way to do that is putting the things on the table clearly. There is no community without you but there is no community without TA members too.

Now, Riichard, you're the boss of TA now, that's your job to make things right and to put an end to this war. They have elected you, now high time they listened to you.

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:
	Snx.FigJig:
	nirvAnA:	Thanks Nemo. It isn't TA tho, its just 3 or 4 people who all happen to be in TA
	TAriiChard:
	FvRsolis:	nirvAnA is the man
	TAkrunch:	Lead us riichard, We're yours to mould.

[crAzerk]

how many guys like Frog or Maynarde or Crayzerg or Pig

Omg Nemo just coined a new nickname for me

[TAriiChard]

Hi Nemo,


I probably shouldn't be typing this because I just came home from a big night out + I'm not a well spoken individual but I guess it's time to share a few of my opinions. I really don't understand where this "Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA" issue is coming from. If you go through the whole thread, "TA members" have given positive feedback to posts that in their opinion deserve positive feedback and they've given negative feedback to posts that in their opinion deserves negative feedback. I don't believe there has been an issue of positive rep trains on TA members or negative rep trains on non-TA members.

Can you explain to me how this is "Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA again" when it's really Nirvana (with a lot of people supporting him) having an issue with two members of TA... Only two and straight away you believe that the whole of TA (70 members) are ganging up on the website owner Nirvana. If you check the thread again you'll see that although there are disagreements with Nirvana, the majority of it is of us agreeing with each other over a mostly calm discussion.

In regards to the two members who I'll agree have stepped over the line by taking a stab at Nirvana, I do believe that Nirvana has overreacted to what Champi has said. Firstly, what Champi said was basically "you did the right thing this time which I have gained respect in contrast to the respect lost from the previous ideas that you have presented" but in a much harsher tone. But not so harsh that it deserved the following response by Nirvana.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.

jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.

We do this voluntary and are looking for the best solution because we want to make the best tournament for the community. We could have just made a bunch of final rules decided by ourselves it would be far easier and save all this trouble and everyone would still play in it anyway. Instead we went out of our way to do this to gather feedback - we are not your servants scurrying around "pitching" shit hoping one meets your liking and we dont owe you anything. i'm frankly very tired of people taking us for granted and the sense of entitlement some people have that lead them to make comments like the above is sickening.

What Champi said I believe was not directed at the other admins/volunteers nor did he say that Nirvana owed him anything and I don't see where Champi went ape shit..... He didn't go off at you with a barrage of abuse. He didn't throw a tantrum and swear at other admins. Hell, he even gave you a positive feedback. Ok I'm getting very very tired now but I'll keep it up.

Honestly... It actually sounded like Nirvana went ape shit at Champi if you read it again. In regards to what Pinder said, he replied to Nirvana's outbreak on Champi and sure I don't agree with his swearing and his not so friendly remarks, but I do agree with what he's trying to say. If ideas are bad they should be called out and discussed right? Isn't that what forums are for? Are we not allowed to "point out how dumb some of Nirvana's ideas are" in this "forum"?


So long story short Nemo I still love you but I do disagree with most of what you said. There is no TA vs Nirvana and friends and Nirvana, I believe that you overreacted and this is my opinion but I also do believe that things could have been worded better from Champi and Pinder which would have avoided this conflict.


These are my final opinions and I hope you all respect them.


Cheers,
TAriiChard

Quick Comments

	[TA]LoSt:	Agree
	x5.Revenant:
	Volition:	Good post. might be time to get past finger pointing though
	deL:	my liege
	TAavanar:	well written, i agree
	Nemo:	Point taken :) <3

[nirvAnA]

I have to disagree there. riichard you are a good leader defending your clan mates like any good leader would do in this situation.

tgun best sums it up what champi meant.

Originally Posted by tgun

It wasn't that Champi pointed out a stupid idea, it's that he went and shit all over Nirvana saying every idea he's had has been retarded (except that one). It was a very poorly hidden insult in a compliment.

people are smart enough to realise that too - look at the rep comments they are from all walks of the community with no affiliation. I don't want to turn this into a TA vs sc2sea because its just a 3-4 members of TA who consistently do this every single time a major event is hosted, not TA as a whole. Its the group / identity thing where people just naturally want to support their friends. Its the same how Revenant and Roz defended TargA in that Bielsko thread, they were being good friends supporting each other but its felt on a much smaller scale because they are small. With TA it sometimes snowballs out or proportion and opinions become magnified because TA is big in size. There are some members in TA who are absolutely great guys.

I also want to move on from this topic so people can start looking forward to the SEACL, registrations would open tomorrow and I hope TA participates and does well in all 4 divisions, they certainly have the depth to do so.

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FvRsolis:

[TAriiChard]

This leads to you having your opinion of disagreeing with me and me having my opinion of disagreeing with you which shows that we don't have to agree with everything right? I'm glad that you do agree that this isn't a TA vs Nirvana and sc2sea as it is far from it.


Also what Nirvana said, this topic in this thread should end now so that the community of sc2sea can look forward and enjoy the next SEACL. It's gonna be awesome as long as we all do our parts.

Oh and give us an add on Skype. riicharse so that we can discuss these issues more in depth privately if needed.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

i like this direction <3

[BaKaiNu]

I'm going to start moderating this thread so it doesn't go out of control. If you get infracted by me, its because you did something wrong. Now this is taking time away from my addiction, so I definitely won't be nice.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	happpy birthday!
	TADivinity:	I dont know why you stepped in and said this after the above posts

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by BakaInu

I'm going to start moderating this thread so it doesn't go out of control. If you get infracted by me, its because you did something wrong. Now this is taking time away from my addiction, so I definitely won't be nice.

Take your infraction and shove it up your pee hole. merry christmas, goodbye sc2sea.

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TAkrunch:

If you imagine the picture of the poo is talking, its quite a charming post

[BaKaiNu]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Take your infraction and shove it up your pee hole. merry christmas, goodbye sc2sea.

Bye Pinder. See you in 7 days if you make it back.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	EveVendetta:

[FvRsolis]

I vote myself team mascot for herocraft (Trying to ease the tension)

[TargA]

**** da police

[nGenLight]

CBF Essay writing, so in summary:

Nirvana is fantastic, and has done SO MUCH for this community.

TA is an absolut monumental part of this community filled with great and entertaining individuals when you get to know them.

In my complete non-bias opinion, I do tend to see Nirvana trying to take the moral highground on several occasions, but generally tries to be very logical and reasonable. Whereas at the same time, TA can be a pain in the ass bunch of bullies when their group identity is threatened, but are actually pretty sweet/reasonable guys otherwise. We are all fighting on the same side with different point of views. I'm not going to say "Relax guys and let's talk through your differences" - FTS (**** that sh*t!), I'm a sicko and love myself some Nirvana vs TA threads. Drama, entertainment is what keeps the community alive outside of the game itself and is why I still drop by from time to time - I'm sure both TA (trolls anonymous) and Nirvana (mega shit stirer) are well aware of this very fact.

Keep the drama alive, and in control, you guys are doing a hell of a job, please don't stop.

Oh and if your a p*ssy that gets offended by TA, first up, grow a pair. Second, get off the net before someone like Deth or Pinder make you reevaluate your reason for living, uncle Nirvana isn't always there to save and cuddle you.

TArayray

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:
	TAEdgE:
	TADivinity:	haha what a great post
	Fadey:

[MooZfY]

Ahhhhh so much reading it's hurting my eyes !!

[nirvAnA]

I agree TA can be nice people, especially to each other and if you KNOW them, or you and Mafia would never have joined TA in the first place. I've heard this from many sources who stand by them once you get to know them well. This does not necessarily apply to outsiders though, and thats what makes the TA bond and group identity stronger. If you're in their group, you are treated well whereas outsiders are treated differently, theres that exclusivity. I understand there isnt the need to be Mr Nice to everyone but it doesnt hurt to let others know that good side of you as well. Btw i obviously dont speak for ALL of TA, just a few of the members involved in this thread. I personally like EdgE and riichard alot.

However, i disagree anyone offended by them = pussies, especially since these "pussies" rarely get offended by anything else. If i felt i was getting offended too often by everything, I would stop and think and re-evaluate my behaviour, because there would mean theres certainty something wrong with me. However, if it was not just me getting offended, but others as well, and by the same constant people I would be confidant in my belief that it was those few members have crossed the line in that instance and of course, naturally people got offended and not because they are "pussies".

Is KJH a pussy for being offended by zannoku? For those who interacted with Zannoku before can you honestly say you haven't being offended by him? I certainty dont think you are a pussy if you were offended cause the stuff he says is downright vile and hes just very offensive and confrontational whenever he speaks or has a different opinion. So no, I don't think you can ever use "this is the way I talk so deal with it" to justify bad behaviour. As for those 3-4 members i've talked about in this thread being in the same clan as them, you can rationalise and understand that they are actually nice people (to you and their group) and hence its only right to support your friends and let the world know they are nice (to you) but remember, outsiders are treated differently.

Update: For clarification, im not at all comparing Zan to TA i was trying to illustrate the point that offensive behaviour cant be justified by saying others are "pussies who unable to deal with it", as in the case with zan, it doesnt make any of us pussies, it makes zan offensive.

Lastly and ironically, i feel pinder should apply his own advice about "hardening up" to himself instead of rage quitting sc2sea and that parting shot left at baka was unnecessary, baka didn't even ban him out of respect for his past contributions, it was just an infraction. There are times when he has went out of line but he has also made many good contributive posts on this forum in the past and I hope he returns when he thinks about this and cools down.

As for the moral high ground issue, yes I tend to take it whenever i see the forum environment turn into something which isn't my vision of sc2sea and I will do my best to prevent this site from becoming the battle.net forums or cg where these behaviours are tolerated.

Thanks for your comments light and I hope to see you back for SEACL!

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

I like to take the moral high ground myself, appealing to the masses feel's good yo xD

[dippa]

please don't compare zanooku's wanton racism and complete and utter lack of intelligence to TA.

you should already know by now that even the people you dislike in TA are capable of holding a reasonable, level-headed discussion; what you said about JP is proof enough.

not going to go into this any further, just don't want people to mistakenly associate the scum of the earth(tm) with TA.

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:
	TAScarecrow:

[aLtShortizz]

I really dont understand why a tournament that has been so anticipating ended in 2 of our best players getting banned from it. I didnt read the whole thing, but AFAIK ppl from both sides really want this CL to work out.

I agree with Light about the drama thread part. it IS very entertaining sometimes. But when the tournament was almost canceled. personal insults are throw and 2 of our best players are banned, its not so funny anymore.

Despite ur reasons, maybe it`ll be good to drop our ego for once and be a little more compromising for something that everyone has been looking forward to for a long time.

[[TA]LoSt]

Lol glad this is going ahead, gives me some motivation to get back into the game and hopefully play for one of the lower tiers.

Nirvana nearly pulled a deL :P

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TADivinity:

lol!!

[Rockstar]

Wow, this really spiralled out of control didn't it.

I've been involved in many highly competitive small communities in my time. Not online communities, RL communities. I have watched this kind of behaviour completely destroy them from the inside. Every time the drama ensued one or 2 more people would drop off the radar never to be seen again, until there was almost noone left.

The only way small communities like these keep their shit together is by cooperation and mutual respect. If you don't have mutual respect or the ability to cooperate then just **** off now, because you are far more trouble than you are worth to anything and everything that is trying to be achieved here.

There are a lot of people who read this forum and don't participate directly in discussion. Every time they read a 9 page bitchfest the community becomes less and less appealing to these borderline players. This is not the responsibility of admins, mods or anyone else, it's the responsibility of every single person who expresses their opinion in one of these threads.

If you want to be a jerk take it to PM's. If you disagree with an argument, constructively explain why and offer an alternative, or shut ur mouth.

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Well said
	Nemo:	+1. Silent majority expressing.
	Maynarde:
	nirvAnA:

[Spud]

I re-created an account to say that arguing over the internet is for retards.

But also a few thoughts:

SC2SEA Team: Every1 is truly appreciative of this site as a platform to connect with others, nerds can be mean, but we never overlook the effort and great work that is done.

On the other hand, talking about viewers and sponsorship is bordering on laughable. "Sponsorship" is a filthy dirty word if you are talking about money making. Sponsorship is nothing more than a donation, its like sponsoring a starving child, it doesn't generate any revenue, but its a great thing to do. Honestly the coin that companies' sponsor/donate or whatever is such a piss in the ocean compared to their overall operations. If you actually believe that the sponsorship of our teams and events are an important aspect of their marketing strategy or have significant impact on their sales you are on crack, seriously you are deluding yourself into thinking your part of something big.

If having the best SEA players gets say an extra 400 viewers, you could roughly estimate it that 200 of these viewers are unlikely to be a target audience for a company, whether they are too young, don't have any money, don't wear Ultra thin tampons or whatever the bullshit adds are pitching. So u r left with 200 possible viewers, who 100 probably have add-blockers. The numbers left over are probably spending the adds beating off to a well endowed midget feeding a length to a double D German porn goddess called Elke. None of this is measurable and with such small numbers, it doesn't mean shit in terms of marketing.

I never saw any of these problems happen in BW, it was about the game and how it would be the most fun. Streams, sponsors, pro teams and all this other shit barely existed, and it was way better imo. Just because a few people worldwide r making a living off SC2 doesn't mean that potentially great tourneys and comps have to cause so much controversy over the sake over a few viewers who in the end are completely in-*******-significant.

Merry Christmas.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	A little crude but you're on the money RE:sponsorship = burning money
	TAEdgE:
	TADivinity:	I love Elke
	Champi:

[inFeZa]

Sponsorship is advertisement, not a donation.

How about we just play some ******* starcraft games coz as a sponsor myself thats all i really care about seeing, my team - doing what they're do best

Quick Comments

TADivinity:

Drama and Ari die :)

[Bloodmyst]

Holy guacamole!

What an entertaining thread!

After reading through a lot of this, all I can say is....

You really all sound like a bunch of kids really..... "tgun and moonglade are just too good!".....

Really guys? You can't really complain if tgun and moonglade decided to join a team for a league because "they wanted to."

Anyways, good luck hf and may everyone prosper!

Quick Comments

	TAScarecrow:	work on your comprehension
	JoFritzMD:	I don't think you actually read through the thread...
	NvRossi:	good head

[nirvAnA]

This thread has run its course and will now be closed. Thank you everyone for your comments.

We somehow at the end still managed to sift through all the hate and bitching and come out with an improved format that the majority of the people will enjoy. Coming up with a good format is very important as we were setting the precedent for the future SEACL's as well, not just this season. As to the silent majority - thank you to some of you for stepping out and making your voice heard.

In the future I hope other discussion can be done without participation of the few that made this such an unpleasant experience, or if they are do are able to just voice their concerns in a civil manner. After all it was all about making a better format, and thats what we achieved with this thread, despite all the negativity and name calling and it would just been so much better without it.

Moral highground ftw!