[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

This sounds like too much trouble count me out, sorry mith

awww poor guy..

tbh - glade playing in the league brings more exposure to the league. He is with out a doubt the most well known and acknowledged SEA SC2 player. Sponsors of this league are more likely to back it because of draw cards such as glade and tgun. Not including them only reduces the marketability of the league.

However, this is a team league, and thus is a competition between teams and their players. So introducing mercenaries runs against this logic - as it has been expressed by many.

So there are two sides to the whole thing... a better bigger league - or a fair legit league of clan players only.
Which does the best for the league overall....?
perhaps a few players are against it because they don't wish to face glade & tgun?...

However there is nothing stopping glade from joining a social clan and dominating the tier 2 competition?

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

[Frogmite]

I don't think that forcing Glade or Tgun to play for a clan is a good idea.
First, clans will prefer their players to play, i don't think any team manager will accept to sub out one of his player to sub in a very good player, but not part of the clan.
Second thing, you need both Tgun and Glade to win their games if they want to win a game, once again there are a lot of very good players in SEA able to beat at least one of them. So they can make their own team, i am not sure they are guaranteed to win the league.

For the format, 4 players, maybe 5 max is more than enough for a clan league. Keep in mind that the league will run for 2 month, and to get 4 players playing every game you need to register at least 8. Unless you're a pro, we all have last minutes events/exams that makes us unavailable for games. If your clan has too many players then you can register a second team.

Last point, and maybe the most important, we all have to consider that events such as tournaments or leagues cannot happen without sponsors, so yes, the number of viewers is very important. If we don't give a good coverage with this league, who will sponsor next season? Sponsors are just interested about viewers.

[NvJazBas]

damn I'm really late.. My opinion is, why is MITH and Mineski the weakest teams..? I look at all 8 teams and I find it pretty stacked.

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

good point

[aLtMrFool]

I agree with some of what people have said above. If moonglade can get us more viewership and increase the prize pool potentially, why not? It's good for the long term (long term vs short term yada yada yada) and I seriously don't get what is wrong with having someone with higher skill than the rest of SEA (moonglade) to be playing in this tournament. Are you telling everyone "hey, since this guy is so dominating, let's exclude him from our tournaments exclusively so that we can have an excuse not to improve to that standard." ? Maybe that's not what some people may mean and I'm just speculating but players with higher skill should serve as a motivation for us to improve rather than an excuse for us to stagnate our skill in SEA?

True , this MAY happen - > Season #2, moonglade powerhouses through a few teams for (team i dont know what) and helps them win the championship.

1: Teams who wishes to attract viewerships/notice from international communities can train harder BEFORE season #2 to have a chance against moonglade--> Say if you beat moonglade, people will be like woah, there are teams in SEA who can beat moonglade etc etc. I dont need to elaborate do i?

2: After the season, being stomped by moonglade can also serve as a motivation for some to practise hard enough to actually reach his standard.

You see, what most people are trying to do by including glade/tgun is not primarily because of money. There are reasons beyond that that reaches out more into the long term for the SEA community more than in the short term. I can understand that in the short term, moonglade and tgun will probably roflstomp (sorry for my language) most players in SEA. But that should not serve as an excuse for players in SEA to not work hard. Imagine what the rest of the international community will think of SEA as a community if word of such controversy goes out ( note : It doesn't even have to be true for it to have an impact on the SEA community).

I'm not suggesting that moonglade and tgun plays permanently as mercs for the rest of SEACL seasons. This is, from the suggestion of many, a temporary solution and should NOT be adopted for future seasons.

This may sound blunt but : Please remove MVP/NesTea from GSL during the 6 seasons of GSL where they dominated because I don't want to work hard to beat them.

If someone like this wants to be a pro-gamer, /sigh.

Again, I don't mean that anyone thinks this way, I just mean in the possibility that anyone thinks that way as a sponsored / pro-gamer, shame on you. And sorry for being blunt, I am tired after a long 3 days of 24-hours duty and right now I've got things to attend to and I cant think of any other way to put it across.

Again, I might be wrong, feel free to shoot me down if I'm wrong.

[NvRossi]

^i dont think anyone thinks that way

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by aLtMrFool

I agree with some of what people have said above. If moonglade can get us more viewership and increase the prize pool potentially, why not? It's good for the long term (long term vs short term yada yada yada) and I seriously don't get what is wrong with having someone with higher skill than the rest of SEA (moonglade) to be playing in this tournament. Are you telling everyone "hey, since this guy is so dominating, let's exclude him from our tournaments exclusively so that we can have an excuse not to improve to that standard." ? Maybe that's not what some people may mean and I'm just speculating but players with higher skill should serve as a motivation for us to improve rather than an excuse for us to stagnate our skill in SEA?

True , this MAY happen - > Season #2, moonglade powerhouses through a few teams for (team i dont know what) and helps them win the championship.

1: Teams who wishes to attract viewerships/notice from international communities can train harder BEFORE season #2 to have a chance against moonglade--> Say if you beat moonglade, people will be like woah, there are teams in SEA who can beat moonglade etc etc. I dont need to elaborate do i?

2: After the season, being stomped by moonglade can also serve as a motivation for some to practise hard enough to actually reach his standard.

You see, what most people are trying to do by including glade/tgun is not primarily because of money. There are reasons beyond that that reaches out more into the long term for the SEA community more than in the short term. I can understand that in the short term, moonglade and tgun will probably roflstomp (sorry for my language) most players in SEA. But that should not serve as an excuse for players in SEA to not work hard. Imagine what the rest of the international community will think of SEA as a community if word of such controversy goes out ( note : It doesn't even have to be true for it to have an impact on the SEA community).

I'm not suggesting that moonglade and tgun plays permanently as mercs for the rest of SEACL seasons. This is, from the suggestion of many, a temporary solution and should NOT be adopted for future seasons.

This may sound blunt but : Please remove MVP/NesTea from GSL during the 6 seasons of GSL where they dominated because I don't want to work hard to beat them.

If someone like this wants to be a pro-gamer, /sigh.

Again, I don't mean that anyone thinks this way, I just mean in the possibility that anyone thinks that way as a sponsored / pro-gamer, shame on you. And sorry for being blunt, I am tired after a long 3 days of 24-hours duty and right now I've got things to attend to and I cant think of any other way to put it across.

Again, I might be wrong, feel free to shoot me down if I'm wrong.

I like what you are trying to say but you aren't correct with saying excluding glade and tgun means we aren't going to be motivated or anything like that. . The other tournament he wasn't allowed in, SEASL, was very controversial because of his exclusion. I personally at the start felt bad about glade not being allowed in, but of course in the end i probably ended up happier about it :P. Thing is, people have caught up to GLaDe. Your argument works about 6+ months ago, but now people can take games off of GLaDe. It still doesn't change the fact that glade is favored vs probably every single player, and when there are ace matches or +2 point matches, it's such an advantage competitively. I want SEA to get exposure but i want a fair and fun clan league where the clan that plays the best wins, not wins because the inclusion of one of SEA's best made them better.

I personally like Scarecrow's idea FYI .

SEA has played in tournaments with both for ages, and those tournaments are 1v1 tournaments where you only care about the result you get. In a team league, if anything, you care less about glade and tgun and more about the team as a whole (if it's non-all kill.) if a team is artificially enhanced and wins at the end, that team gets the glory and having such great players to help them for free just does not seem fair for other teams just because they managed to get a stronger team.

We all wanted a team league first and foremost for FUN, and the competitive aspect of who is the best and seeing how teams are going is a very fun part of it. People seem to be forgetting that. That's the issue with glade and tgun - the arguable 2 best players in SEA who (not saying anything here) want to play for fun or money or exposure or whatever. The thing is, they never took an interest in SEA clans before now and suddenly get to join the 'weakest team' which really aren't that weak - Mineski is really strong and MiTH is surprisingly strong even if low on men. The biggest picture is as you and most are arguing is the exposure for SEA, the sponsors etc etc, but the core of what people wanted was fun. A fun league where maximum people can compete in as fair a competition as possible. I do think glade and tgun fit in, but joining another team and taking away from the legitimate competitive aspect just irks me.

Team Herocraft ftw!

edit: this is just part of my personal point competitively. If TA or AMSI somehow wins this, i wouldn't personally mind if there was no money as long was it was a fun, well run league. Money obviously gives incentive to play and practice.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

[Rockstar]

my 2 cents: People shouldn't be treated any different because they're popular or good.

If they're not in a SEA clan why are they competing in a SEA clan tournament? Viewer-ship or not it's not a good decision when it comes to the entire theme of the tournament.

Thats not to say they can't play. Perhaps they should start and/or join another team properly in order to compete. Then there wouldn't be any issue at all and the rules/integrity of the entire competition are upheld.

It's quite simple really. This is a tournament designed to find the best SEA clan. The requirement should be that you are a part of a SEA clan.

Quick Comments

simon:

exactly

[nirvAnA]

Heres a solution that came to mind building on scarecrows suggestions.

MiTH merges with inFi for SEA CL #2. This makes sense because RedArchon and Indy are from infi already. Maya, jump and Fah are not but can be included. Not sure if they(MiTH) will be happy with it but this will make room for "herocraft" to play in the league which will be glade + tgun + anyone else glade decides to hand pick for his team. the players must not already be in a clan / team in Tier 1. I don't see any cons except MiTH might not like it. this also makes infi one of the top favourites to win now with TargA, iceiceice, RedArchon, rev and kim jong roz.

if their team win half their winnings go back to SEA CL #3. This makes sense because glade/tgun didn't want much $$ in the first place they just wanted to participate and be involved with the SEA scene. And if their team wins, well they are already well known so theres really no point from a "sponsors of teams" benefit perspective, but it will help make SEA CL #3 happen, the end result being "sponsors of team" benefit from exposure cause its easier to start one more season if you already have half the prize pool taken care off.

Format: changed to best of 5 in view of glade/tgun being on the same team, the previous format would mean they 2 alone could win all their games every week and thier team would be top and that would not be fair. so 5 players would be needed each week, 5 sets of 1v1s. so xGking, SQLT and herocraft all have to pick up more players.

Because of the teams own sponsor limitations and nature of this, the players will probably not receive the full benefits from xgking/sqlt and be on a "trial run" of some sort, essentially mercs but then again not exactly because if they perform well a full offer as a legitimate player of the team should be offered. Also you should not attempt to take players already from a team aka Pokerface(SPR), Bielsko (aLt) because by that principle whats to stop you from "Trialing" glade or tgun?

So this is where the managers skill or "eye for talent" really comes in. For e.g its not right to say you're a good manager if all you do is snatch the already established top players from clans, by throwing money at them - because anyone with a willing sponsor can do that. but theres support to your argument as a good manager if you groomed or picked up unknown players in the scene, helped them find a team, put them into the spotlight or nurtured them into top players. Not only is it good for developing the scene, its far more respectable and something to be proud of.

the rest of the teams seem to have adequate number of players.

Thoughts / comments ? As soon as its resolved we can open registration.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	actually like this
	NvJazBas:	I like it
	TAScarecrow:	sounds good
	Champi:	you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up <3
	FaDeBadger:	Love it

[NvPinder]

Of the 5 major aus e-sports teams that currently have sc2 teams (TTesports, sqlTt, arcMSI, xGKing, immunity), literally only 1 has a team of 4 active players, so you're going to have to come up with a seriously spastic format to cater to them, meanwhile of the 12 active players I count in those teams(pig, ninja, hut, sensai, yang, edge, deth, rossi, jazbas, mafia, iaguz & yoon), 10 are currently on clans that would all field a team to play anyway, with hut/iaguz easily slipping into 'hero craft' or w/e anyway.

It's not as if these players don't get to represent their sponsors, casters can easily mention the teams the players play for when the game begins. Last SEACL was exclusively for CLANS, and arcMSI was actually prohibited from entering as arcmsi (despite our entire lineup being on TA anyway...), it just confuses me why you'd have a sudden switch around of trying to change it into something it wasn't to begin with. If you want to run a team league, then start running a team league, just don't call it something it isn't.

Quick Comments

	NvJazBas:	Damn..I like this too.. +_+
	TAEdgE:	you're poo
	Fadey:
	syfChadMann:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Heres a solution I have in mind building on scarecrows suggestions.

MiTH merges with inFi for SEA CL #2. This makes sense because RedArchon and Indy are from infi already. Maya, jump and Fah are not but can be included. Not sure if they(MiTH) will be happy with it but this will make room for "herocraft" to play in the league which will be glade + tgun + anyone else glade decides to hand pick for his team. the players must not already be in a clan / team in Tier 1. I don't see any cons except MiTH might not like it. this also makes infi favourites to win now with TargA, iceiceice, RedArchon and Rev.

if their team win half their winnings go back to SEA CL #3. This makes sense because glade/tgun didn't want much $$ in the first place they just wanted to participate and be involved with the SEA scene. And if their team wins, well they are already well known so theres really no point from a "sponsors of teams" benefit perspective, but it will help make SEA CL #3 happen and for the league to continue, the end result being "sponsors of team" benefit from exposure cause its easier to start one more season.

Format: maybe change it to best of 5 in view of glade/tgun being on the same team meaning 5 players each week. so xGking, SQLT and herocraft all have to pick up more players. the rest of the teams seem to have adequate number of players.

Thoughts / comments ? As soon as its resolved we can open registration.

Nice... Glade ermm.. I'm available.. call me.. ;-)

But seriously.. good compromise.. let them play..

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

this also makes infi one of the top favourites to win now with TargA, iceiceice, RedArchon and Rev.
.

You forgot Roz

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	i loled :D well done
	nirvAnA:	lol sorry forgot again! added!
	TAEdgE:
	syfChadMann:
	TAriiChard:

[Benji]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Of the 5 major aus e-sports teams that currently have sc2 teams (TTesports, sqlTt, arcMSI, xGKing, immunity), literally only 1 has a team of 4 active players, so you're going to have to come up with a seriously spastic format to cater to them, meanwhile of the 12 active players I count in those teams(pig, ninja, hut, sensai, yang, edge, deth, rossi, jazbas, mafia, iaguz & yoon), 10 are currently on clans that would all field a team to play anyway, with hut/iaguz easily slipping into 'hero craft' or w/e anyway.

It's not as if these players don't get to represent their sponsors, casters can easily mention the teams the players play for when the game begins. Last SEACL was exclusively for CLANS, and arcMSI was actually prohibited from entering as arcmsi (despite our entire lineup being on TA anyway...), it just confuses me why you'd have a sudden switch around of trying to change it into something it wasn't to begin with. If you want to run a team league, then start running a team league, just don't call it something it isn't.

EGMC format solves that issue, can use as few as 3 players or as many as 6 every clanwar (Provided the ace is required)

Quick Comments

	NvPinder:	see what i said about "seriously spastic format".
	Zealo:	INCLUDE 2V2!!!

[Eddie]

Love it Nirvana!

Address some issues some people had, myself included.

Glade and Tgun not jumping on board established teams, tipping the scales slightly.

Can the established clans beat the 'sc2sea mercenaries'?

Up to MiTH/inFi i guess...

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by EdgE

I want to know why they want to play formally first. I have my suspicious for both, and i may have missed a post by them, but i'll ask this just out of personal whim:

@Andy and Brad - if you are allowed to play in this, but are not awarded prize money at the end, would you still play?

Neutral Standing edit.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	.
	syfChadMann:	no need to call people names - its not nice...
	NvRossi:	you have too high an opinion of yourself
	Champi:	dont **** with edge please

[ROOT`iaguz]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

This is such a pathetic post that you should feel ashamed.

As for this discussion, its not helping anyone.. decide on a format that aligns best with your long term goals for SEA please..

You're a bad person. Shut up.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

This is such a pathetic post that you should feel ashamed.

As for this discussion, its not helping anyone.. decide on a format that aligns best with your long term goals for SEA please..

-----------------------

[nirvAnA]

chill guys or theres gonna be an edge vs azz showmatch. actually, why not?

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:
	NvRossi:	no

[TAEdgE]

-----------------------------

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

chill guys or theres gonna be an edge vs azz showmatch. actually, why not?

Neutral standing regarding this.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	syfChadMann:	good point..
	ROOT`iaguz:	People like you are the reason God doesn't want to talk to us anymore
	nirvAnA:	damnit my shit stirring failed
	TAriiChard:	^
	NvJazBas:	T_T I was hoping to ask him to PLEASE open forge expand instead of gateway nexus for once..

[crAzerk]

So this is where the managers skill or "eye for talent" really comes in. For e.g its not right to say you're a good manager if all you do is snatch the already established top players from clans, by throwing money at them - because anyone with a willing sponsor can do that. but theres support to your argument as a good manager if you groomed or picked up unknown players in the scene, helped them find a team, put them into the spotlight or nurtured them into top players. Not only is it good for developing the scene, its far more respectable and something to be proud of.

Am I the only one who noticed the subtle dig in this paragraph? Showmatch!

Anw when is this slated to begin? Frogmite originally said Feb or something right but from what it seems like it could start in a few weeks or less.

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

yeh the eye for talent made me laugh :P