[Benji]

So this is where the managers skill or "eye for talent" really comes in. For e.g its not right to say you're a good manager if all you do is snatch the already established top players from clans, by throwing money at them - because anyone with a willing sponsor can do that. but theres support to your argument as a good manager if you groomed or picked up unknown players in the scene, helped them find a team, put them into the spotlight or nurtured them into top players. Not only is it good for developing the scene, its far more respectable and something to be proud of.

These kinds of players are high risk. Safer bet is to sign players that are constantly performing well Clans usually pickup these players and groom them for us :P Until there are more teams and more demand for players, its just how its going to happen.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by EdgE

I want to know why they want to play formally first. I have my suspicious for both, and i may have missed a post by them, but i'll ask this just out of personal whim:

@Andy and Brad - if you are allowed to play in this, but are not awarded prize money at the end, would you still play?

Yes I would. I'll also not play if it'll stop people from bitching.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Atta boy
	nirvAnA:
	FaDeBadger:
	TAEdgE:	i love you sorry for my harsh wording and character judgement
	TAriiChard:
	ToRSmotPokingFish:

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by TAChampi

you just earnt back some of the respect i lost for you from all the other stupid things youve tried to pitch, keep it up...

oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.

jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.

We do this voluntary and are looking for the best solution because we want to make the best tournament for the community. We could have just made a bunch of final rules decided by ourselves it would be far easier and save all this trouble and everyone would still play in it anyway. Instead we went out of our way to do this to gather feedback - we are not your servants scurrying around "pitching" shit hoping one meets your liking and we dont owe you anything. i'm frankly very tired of people taking us for granted and the sense of entitlement some people have that lead them to make comments like the above is sickening.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	Agree 100%
	Maynarde:	Some of us work time. No one gets a cent for all this work. A "thanks" is little to ask..
	Frogmite:	nirv saving e-sport
	aLtMrFool:	^ Most people won't understand till they're the ones actually organising it
	Bash:
	ToR.Arnor:	100% agree,
	:	Counter-rep to HteD unnecessary bad rep
	ToRSmotPokingFish:
	Reere:
	Imperial:	lold
	EveVendetta:	glad you made it clear. some people need that reminding.

[PiG]

i feel like a stoned puppy after reading this thread. Honestly though props to Nirvana and everyone else who kept working at it until a solution was found. No idea how this thread managed to even vaguely stay on track!

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	I'm surprised too but glad nonetheless lol
	TAEdgE:	azz was mean to me too
	breadfan:	Drugs and pets are an entertaining mix

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by PiG

i feel like a stoned puppy after reading this thread. Honestly though props to Nirvana and everyone else who kept working at it until a solution was found. No idea how this thread managed to even vaguely stay on track!

How do you know what a stoned puppy feels like?

[Roz]

I mean I'm pretty sure most of inFi is willing to participate in this 1 way or another. With all the formats you mentioned, we'll still be playing whether we like it or not, so don't get me wrong there. The only thing I'm trying to say is I really don't think you should try to cater to the "sponsored teams". I like the new ideas listed on the last page or 2 more though. First of all, I really don't know who's sponsoring this league so I'm not going to comment on that but as for sponsors for the current teams, here's kinda how i feel. When you have mercs in the so called "weaker teams", then those sponsored teams will probably stronger than they actually are in terms of results. That itself already makes the league unfair. The supposedly strongest team might not actually be the team that's going to win because of it and the team that won it when they weren't suppose to will get a lot more exposure than they should and the team that should be getting it didn't. I'm not saying that glade or tgun will be willing it for sure but it definitely makes the chances of whatever team they play for higher. At the same time, clans or players that currently don't have sponsors certainly wouldn't mind sponsors in most cases. That causes a problem as well as their players will be put on several different teams + having mercs on some teams + having low number of players a week, it's a total misrepresentation of the clan itself and it doesn't help the clan at all. I understand that you are trying to help teams as well but clans are part of the "community" as well.

Another problem that I feel is that it kinda kills some of the fun out of it for us, I'm not too sure if it's the same for the other clans. I definitely want all our clan members to be competing in this together.

I don't know if I'm confusing you guys and I'm not trying to attack anyone or anything, just kinda trying to get my concern over to you guys. What I'm trying to get at here is you either go for a team league or you go for a clan league. I don't really like the idea of having both clans and teams mixed together and having clans lose some of their players to the teams.

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

[syfChadMann]

Why not have a Pro league - where only pro teams can play.. ala the Tier 1.. where there are prizes of $$ and all that goodness..Then Tier 2 where only clan affiliated players can play.. but allow Tier 1 players to play in both if they have the clan...

IMO a team league is not just about the competition, but the bonding of the clan/team and the sense of pride they can build in their success.. pride for their clans and the cheers of their clanmates from the streams.. vs the elitist Pro league that are small circles of players.

both types are awesome.. for different reasons.. the Pro league showcases the talent of the pro teams in SEA, where as the Clan league is that fun exciting grudge match style show down.

IMO
Tier 2 / players Clan league...
Tier 3 / CL
Tier 4 , & CL

Can even implement a rule that the first (1 or 2) players from each team have to be the lowest league represented in that tier... and only 1 or 2 tier 1 players can play each match.

I get the issue with players not wanting glade and tgun representing teams they are not part of, as it takes away some of the pride at stack - about the strongest team/clan in SEA.. that is the real prize, money aside - this league and all community leagues should be about fun, enjoyment and building the community.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by ChadMann

Why not have a Pro league - where only pro teams can play.. ala the Tier 1.. where there are prizes of $$ and all that goodness..Then Tier 2 where only clan affiliated players can play.. but allow Tier 1 players to play in both if they have the clan...

IMO a team league is not just about the competition, but the bonding of the clan/team and the sense of pride they can build in their success.. pride for their clans and the cheers of their clanmates from the streams.. vs the elitist Pro league that are small circles of players.

both types are awesome.. for different reasons.. the Pro league showcases the talent of the pro teams in SEA, where as the Clan league is that fun exciting grudge match style show down.

IMO
Tier 2 / players Clan league...
Tier 3 / CL
Tier 4 , & CL

Can even implement a rule that the first (1 or 2) players from each team have to be the lowest league represented in that tier... and only 1 or 2 tier 1 players can play each match.

I get the issue with players not wanting glade and tgun representing teams they are not part of, as it takes away some of the pride at stack - about the strongest team/clan in SEA.. that is the real prize, money aside - this league and all community leagues should be about fun, enjoyment and building the community.

isn't that exactly what nirvana (i think) proposed? or was i imagining that?

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Zealo

isn't that exactly what nirvana (i think) proposed? or was i imagining that?

Yeah it is.. basically - but I think the current play is to not permit Tier1 players to compete in Tier 2.
Which is silly.

There should be two different leagues for the new league.. a Pro league and a Clan league. Allow the best players to represent their clans - regardless of how stacked one team may or may not be, a Clan league is about players battling out to find out which clan has the drive, determination and skill to be the best. Not a place for mercenaries, as a 'Clan' league should only be players that represent that clan in each team.

where as the Pro league should be straight up, high level competitive play - for the prizes and the glory.

Tier 1 can use some small team format, whereas tier 2 can have a much larger format with many more players being involved. If there is one player that is always All-Killing cause they are a top GM/Pro player then good on them. That shows how strong that clan really is.. if the Clan only has one decent player, then the other clans against them need to work on the right sniper to take them out. Also the low league players first rule works in all Tiers (except for tier 1...), For example; Tier 2 teams vs, Bo7 - First two players from each team must be whereas the last two can be what ever mix of or that the team can field on the night.

idk, Hopefully a fair league for all is developed, but I do believe that Pro players should be able to represent their pro team, I think clans like TA would be highly affected by not being able to play in both Tiers. Their A team level players also in pro teams; MaFia, SenSei, yang, Rossi, deth, Pinder, EdgE, Light, Voices - all split onto 3 different teams.

Back on topic of the thread; Put tgun and glade into their own team that they can select players for - let them play and represent their own skill. While the extra, not-yet-pro-players that they add to their roster can use it as a proving ground to try and get more exposure.. and Perhaps a chance to play/practice with two of SEA's top Zergs. Why not have a tournament where 1st gets a spot on the Herocraft team?...

anyway, Can't wait to see how this all ends up.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.

jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.

Write a fuckin' simple plan song you emo. If your ideas are shit we're going to call you out on it just like we do to everyone else, harden the **** up and don't have a cry every time someone points out how dumb some of your ideas are.

Quick Comments

	HteD:
	ROOTPetraeus:	usad
	ToRSmotPokingFish:	no.....
	nirvAnA:	yea its exactly these attitude im talking about. we arent your servents
	Snx.FigJig:	no need for this
	EveMassacrisM:	.
	SLCN.NXZ:	Sometimes you go too far :(
	Imperial:	lold again
	EveVendetta:	Your portrait fits you well.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Write a fuckin' simple plan song you emo. If your ideas are shit we're going to call you out on it just like we do to everyone else, harden the **** up and don't have a cry every time someone points out how dumb some of your ideas are.

It wasn't that Champi pointed out a stupid idea, it's that he went and shit all over Nirvana saying every idea he's had has been retarded (except that one). It was a very poorly hidden insult in a compliment.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Nemo:	Exactly. Nirvana was entitled to be angry.

[dippa]

*bangs head*

issues aside, that might be the longest response to a (positive) rep comment i've ever seen.

nevertheless, let's all play nicely. it's christmas for ****'s sake.

[cRSenSei]

So where does pig fit in with all of this? Since all teams need minimum of 5 players now. I think he fits in well with SQLTt since he already practices with us/joins our friday night team training stream. Nirvana?

[dippa]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.SenSei

So where does pig fit in with all of this? Since all teams need minimum of 5 players now. I think he fits in well with SQLTt since he already practices with us/joins our friday night team training stream. Nirvana?

i think pig was already a part of aLt

[SLCN.NXZ]

IMO the way this should go is pretty simple. Fact is, xGKing should not be able to participate if they do not have the required amount of players. Think back to GSTL where IM was not allowed to participate due to poor GSL showings outside of Losira, mvp and nestea. This should apply here. Only way for xGKing to participate is if they "merge" with another clan with similar levels of players. For example, the crux-ToR thing that happened for PDCL. That should be the way that xGKing participates, naturally that weakens infi, TA and aLt but it should be teams first imo. Unless there is a separation between the clans and teams (there can't be, not enough teams) xGKing will have to participate combined with other clan/s or player/s.

Similarly, MiTH and Mineski should instead be regarded as GlaDe-MiTH and tgun-Mineski. That way the league maintains it's legitimacy in the same way it would if crux-ToR won the PDCL. Say there was only 1 crux player, playing for ToR in the league and that crux player won all his games (assuming the format used in this league instead of AK format) and they end up winning the league. If the team is entered as crux-ToR its fine however if it was just ToR it raises the question of whether they could win without said crux player. That way GlaDe and tgun can participate but instead of it being MiTH won the league ("but glad ecarried them yada yada"), it should be GlaDe-MiTH won the league ("GlaDe carried-" "doesn't matter hes part of the "team"). With a simple name change the proposed solution is ideal.

This sort of solution could be applied to the teams issue as well. Have xGKing participate as X-player compined with xG. For example they recruit Strafe to play alongside them. Make the team name Strafe-xG. To an extent kind of like the oGs-TL partnership, except for the league only. You could almost treat it like the QIM in IPL incident by having 2 teams playing as one. TArcMSI seems fine to me, perhaps TA would prefer to play as just TA but that's their decision to make whether they would like to play as TA or arcMSI. Perhaps even have arcMSI play in "tier 1" and TA (no players from arcMSI) play in tier 2 or 3 if necessary.

My thoughts ^^, PiG should play for aLt, I guess he could play as TT and SQLT could join with him, depends what he decides to do. He should play for aLt though if he chooses to not play as Tt for the league.

[mOOnGLaDe]

well i dont know what tgun thinks of this but i am certainly not playing in this so i dont know why im still mentioned in the discussion

i'll make sure i make a clan and recruit some people for future tournaments so i can participate without trouble lol

may this league allow the sea community to prosper and grow!

Quick Comments

	deL:	Lone Wolf
	breadfan:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

well i dont know what tgun thinks of this but i am certainly not playing in this so i dont know why im still mentioned in the discussion

i'll make sure i make a clan and recruit some people for future tournaments so i can participate without trouble lol

may this league allow the sea community to prosper and grow!

This is sad... SEA Event without SEA's best player?...

sad that you feel that you can't participate in the league.. Maybe you should just sign up to a few CO's and punish everyone?.. Also, when you make that new clan - lemme know k?.. I DID just win the BSGCL :P and I wrote Hi in Pylons to you when you cast me v EdgE in Dox Cup... :P

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

well i dont know what tgun thinks of this but i am certainly not playing in this so i dont know why im still mentioned in the discussion

i'll make sure i make a clan and recruit some people for future tournaments so i can participate without trouble lol

may this league allow the sea community to prosper and grow!

I'm out too then, hopefully the league has smooth sailing from here on

Quick Comments

	deL:	Maybe we can come up with something else to include you and glade without the use of clans. State of Origin perhaps? :D
	breadfan:	gentleman!
	SLCN.NXZ:	@deL but QLD-GlaDe would always win :P

[inFeZa]

I am not playing in it either.
There, now the league is totally balanced.

Quick Comments

	deL:	If you're not playing I'm not watching.
	SLCN.NXZ:	Well played, good sir, well played indeed ^^

[nirvAnA]

After reading the comments and all the negativity in this thread I initially felt hosting this league was not worth the trouble, nobody was going to be happy in the end and all our efforts would go to waste - just like what glade & tgun felt when they withdrew their participation. But after contemplating scrapping the league - there was a surge of overwhelming support from the community in the chatbox. Tons of people came forward offering to help admin, help donate, and do whatever need to ensure the league runs. It goes to remind me that the most vocal people are never a representation of the majority, although it may look that way at times, and theres always a less vocal community supporting who just don't express themselves as much. It was also an overeaction by me who acted emotionally first by cancelling the league before thinking of the bigger picture, so i apologise for that.

Firstly, props to GLaDe and tgun, who came back and decided to put a team together so the prestige of the league remains. The Tier1 league will have the 8 teams as previously suggested and i will confirm with infeza about SQLT's participation.

Next, the behaviour by deth and pinder are unacceptable. You do not abuse the mods who volunteer their time to run the tournament when you do not agree with something. Why did tourniquet who was previously the most active mod stop doing stuff? Exactly because of this reason, the abuse he was getting from the vocal few and the unappreciativeness after all the hard work he put in. I hope this does not happen to Erasmus as well and thats why im always very adamant against mod abuse and cannot allow to continue.

You don't say xxx is stupid and therefore X must be stupid for coming up with such an idea. That doesn't help the league and it fills the thread with negativity. You do it the proper way by taking the time to write well thought out suggestion (without insults) like Scarecrow has done, and which I have went on to implement. Not only will you it be the respectful thing to do and promote proper discussion, theres a much higher chance that your suggestions will be listened to.

Also, this is not the first time this happened either, every single major tournament has been filled with negativity in large part to the both of you, the SEASL#1, the SEACL#1 , which otherwise could have been much happier events if they didn't have all that drama. Why is it always the two of you and nobody else? Why are you so different, do you believe you are so much smarter and that your opinions are always the right ones and superior to everyone else's? If not, why not just express yourself civilly without anger or vulgarities? It is supposed to be a discussion to make a better tournament so why turn it into personal attacks and fill the thread with negativity?

Now if nothing is done these attitudes will continue, as they have in SEASL#1 and SEACL#1 and now SEACL#2. And this time their actions resulted in GLaDe / tgun pulling out and nearly influencing me to scrap the league altogether. The only way I feel there will be a change of attitudes is to ban the both of them for one Season of SEACL, a meaningful ban that they will not forget and hopefully learn from. Show a basic amount of respect, we are not your servants and we do not owe you anything.

Registrations for SEACL#2 will begin tomorrow.

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:	props to keeping it going! :)
	AvPoker:	baller
	cure:	Well Said.
	SLCN.NXZ:	A Shining beacon of hope for those of lesser awesome and lower opinions <3<3<3
	Volition:	completely justified! we rly appreciate your hard work!
	breadfan:	100% correct, and I'm excited to see this come to fruition!
	ToRMaverick:	Being a quiet minority and realativly new community member I was surprised by the tone of this thread myself.