[PiG]

This is a post that was inspired by some of the points FXOBoss brought up in his private blog. It is in no way about FXO as a team or their management. I Repeat DO NOT go off on tangents about The team or their players. Please discuss only points related to the blog mentioned and those brought up in this post.

The purpose of this blog is to discuss the great growth we've seen in our scene, and also the areas we could be advancing faster and some methods to do so. Any suggestions and discussion are encouraged!

http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/

I'm still sick so this isn't going to be worded too well. Please bare with me

So guys and girls we're all looking forward to WCS in 1 months time aren't we? Lets' blabber a bit..

Heading :P

This blog will be a bit about esports in SEA/Australia in general as well as focusing especially on what we can do with future events such as WCS.

Dot was nice enough to read outloud to me FXOBoss' blog the other night while I was huddled underneath a heap of blankets in our hotel room and since then I've been thinking a lot about Starcraft 2 and it's growth. It's come a long way. A damn long way.

I remember when I first joined the competitive scene as a clanless NA ladder player a little over a year and a half ago. I came 2nd in my first Community Open tournament beating Edge and losing narrowly to Revenant in the finals. I got pwnt 2-0 by YoonYJ at my first LAN at eastwood in the ro8 and the next one at Cityhunter I won beating Light and Rossi and only dropping one map the entire tournament. So here I was a high master nobody who kept losing to Desrow in NA ESL but in SEA I was winning tournaments and beating known names! :O

And now today think of a clanless high master player on NA standing any chance of taking down the names I just mentioned seems laughable! Many SEA players even lesser known players frequent NA GM and many of us see very little difference between SEA and NA ladder. Right off the bat that's a pretty sick improvement! All of the clans, tournaments and events that have popped up as well as the growing SEA community has all helped build us into a position very similar to our American counterparts.

We are still lacking the Idras and Huks as well as the imported talents such as Violet and BeastyQT which does hold NA to a much higher standard then SEA at the top level. However our top level players are easily on par with all but the very top echelon of the NA region. Many of the recent TSL qualifiers had just as many Australian participants as Canadians despite starting at 1.15am AEST! Not only that but I remember by the ro16 there were often more Australian flags left in the running then American ones, despite them having more then double the number of signups!

Ok so we train harder, to win more tournaments and more money. To compete for our clans, teams and personal pride. We are one of the countries with the highest %/person of live GSL viewers and we now have events like ACL which are reminiscent of 2010 MLG albeit on a smaller scale.

So onto Boss' blog:

"There is talk in the SEA community how they just need more chances to prove themselves internationally so they get the recognition they deserve... however for one reason or another the majority of those players (5 out of 8)either had issues playing the games or simply left midway through the series"

I was really sad that I fell ill and was unable to move from my bed in my hotel room and had to abandon my plans to borrow infezas computer to play my series on Tuesday night. I was up against LiquidHero who in my eyes is the most talented starcraft 2 player in the world and would have been honoured to play him. The only time I vsed him on ladder it was Shattered Temple so I freaked out at no easy 3rd and tried a horribly executed lingbane allin... right after I had said how excited I was to play him and that I would try to give him a good game. All 5K+ stream viewers had a lot of sour words for me after the game when I hopped on his stream.

So this was a chance to redeem myself in my favourite matchup and a great opportunity to play the guy who lost his 2 base allin vs Idra's 4 base roachling and then proceeded to win using dual prism harass on metalopolis in a HSC game a year or two ago. Unfortunately I was sick and couldn't play. However if I did get a chance to play I think I would have put up an OK fight. Though I almost undoubtably would have lost.

However I'm really sad that other players didn't show up and I guess It's partly because ACL was just days before and a mixture of personal issues all hitting at bad times. I did hear some players left mid-series and that is really sad to me. I think if you're a progamer and you're leaving mid-series then you have the completely wrong attitude and won't win major tournaments that way. Please do your best to represent us professionally and always give the organisers as much forward notice as possible so they can replace you. If you feel you have no chance and will give-up halfway then tell the organisers ahead of time that you don't wish to play. Otherwise it just ruins the purpose of the tournament.

Now that being said, Australian's don't necessarily need so many spots in a tournament filled with top level Koreans. I wouldn't be surprise to see a lot of high profile NA and EU players get rolled in any of the groups in this FXO Invitational and so to hope for the less-experienced SEA players to do well is a bit of a stretch. I think Mafia, Glade and Targa and Tgun were the only 4 players with serious chances of taking many games from these players. The simple fact is Europe is far behind Korea, and NA is far behind Europe, and SEA is a little behind NA. It's great for a lot of fans to always think SEA players just need a chance to show their talents. But that's fan-talk, not necessarily the reality. And yes I'm prone to overhyping people I fanboy too!

In actuality SEA players need more chances to compete with the NA and EU players such as the recent TSL tournaments before progressing to having any serious expectation of progressing far in a tournament as difficult as the FXO Invitational. That being said the experience from these sort of tournaments is invaluable and gives huge inspiration to train harder! Thankyou FXOBoss, Frequency and Unstable for this opportunity and I'm sorry that circumstances disallowed many from participating. I also hope any who quit mid-series will think twice before doing this in future.


" In contrast to this is I must shout out Coach Choi who if one of his players couldn’t make it he instantly had a replacement"

Just a short mention that the comparison to coach Choi finding replacements when a player can't make it is clearly a completely different situation to us as players. Targa's managers don't know anything about sc2 as far as I know. My manager Mayo has limited knowledge as a CSS player and I'm his only player. Dox was disbled with the same disease I have but normally I would hope he would offer up an alternative such as Deth to replace YoonYJ well ahead of time. etc etc.

Unfortunately in the SEA scene the majority of managers, organisers and players are doing this on the side of busy careers and personal lives and it's an unfortunate fact that we simply don't have the time to be as professional as the Koreans. Don't get me wrong it's still something we aspire to, it's just not a possiblity! I think that the tone of comparison of SEA to Korea here, as well as FXO as a team's tendency to focus on money and business does cast a bit of light on Boss being a little out of touch with the SEA scene. I think the FXO approach always differed from most organisations but to use the business and professional discourses in the sea scene is especially at odds with how things happen down under.

Add the fact that FXO haven't helped the Australian/SEA esports scene very much/in a very visual way and you put yourself in an easy position to take a lot of flak.

I'm not going to go any further with that because I don't know the facts and I choose to take Boss' word that he is under pressure to make FXO economically viable and so they basically haven't been able to do work in Australia/SEA where there's no real chance of economic return.


Boss went on to talk about some things I agreed with. And some things I didn't agree with.

"There is so much talk of their events are getting better and better and their players too, but simply put, the numbers don’t lie, it’s been a long time since any SEA player has competed globally in GSL or an international event and placed well, also the viewer number for their events has declined."

The fact our players have improved drastically and our events are getting better and better is absolutely without a doubt. Targa did just place well in NASL, as did Glade at WCG last year, as did Tgun and Mafia in multiple TSL qualifiers and playhem dailies. When did we have any good results previously? Only when Moonglade had sick sponsorship deals with FXO did he have the chance to train ridiculously hard including in Korea and go around smashing IEMS. Other then that when did SEA ever have ANY wins at all in international events? I'm pretty sure Jazbas taking 2-3 series at blizzcon 2011 was massive compared to our nonexistant history in international events. What we have now is multiple players (mostly zerg unfortunately) who with limited sponsorship and local support have trained themself up to an internationally competitive level and are starting to compete at a very high NA/EU level. The overall results might not be as good as Glade's past IEM successes but trust me they are a tangible and solid growth in our scene. Most importantly they are a natural growth that comes from within the scene not from an investor suddenly putting money into a pre-established player who trained from the beta to dominate.

As for viewer numbers I don't know what numbers you're looking at but since Benji unlocked how to use the TL featured stream function and the rest of SEA slowly learned from that, the views on SEA events have been steadily rising higher and higher. (Edit: This was based off anecdotal evidence aka. nothing, and benji informs me numbers have stagnated over the past year:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

This is incorrect, on average our stream viewer numbers have not significantly increased in the last year or so.

Ok now that I basically just said why I disagree with a lot of what Boss said. I also kind of agree with it.
Whilst Boss' standards are a bit ridiculous for SEA and he is overly critical of what has been fantastic development, we still have a long way to go! Sure our views have gone up, our lans are up, our sponsors are up. But there is still so much further to go!


How you can help grow Starcraft

Right now at this moment there are SO GODDAMN MANY SC2 FANS IN AUSTRALIA! The most random people can tell you about "Idra killing his own base thing and then losing or something" and we have a MASSIVE number of Australians on TL. The problem is only a fraction of them know about or follow the SEA scene. This Has to change! With Mafia reaching GM on Korea and Targa smashing up NASL we need more people following the SEA scene, competing at ACL and tuning into SEA events.

One of the problems is getting the word out. Avertising. Marketing. Networking. Whatever the hell you want to call it. See this thread I wrote a while back for an attempted list of networking groups about sc2 in SEA for organisers to post to get more viewers/attendees etc.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php...working&page=1

And yet when I scroll through the incredibly active Sydney Collegiate SC2 group with over 500 active members I see zero posts about ACL on ACL weekend! Ughhhh why aren't we posting on these sites guys!? A massive part of the AU/NZ/SEA community is just being ignored because we're used to just posting on sc2sea, TL, and then tweeting and retweeting.

Well guess what, unfortunately our twitter networks just aren't that big yet. The NA scene was building twitter networks from day 1 and before whereas most of our top players still are too lazy to maintain a twitter page. Not just that but many thousands of sc2 fans in SEA don't use twitter. We NEED to reach these fans in alternative methods!

So here's what I suggest as our main goals for WCS and future events:

1. BUMP THE SHIT OUT OF TL THREADS. Doing this is Key to getting exposure for our events
2. Post in the major groups in my list and add to this list yourselves
3. Bring friends along to LAN events, share them on your facebook and who cares if your friends or family see that you like a game! Be proud of it!

Some other things I personally think should get pressed forward:

1) Integration of major tournament scene advertising with Battle.net. Battle.net should advertise ACL freely as they do for MLG and Dreamhack. When you logon to bnet it should have a link to the ACL event page around events. Same for barcrafts . Currently I've only seen this for WCS events...

2) ACL + SGL/Respawn style events:

SGL/Respawn have a sick casual gamers event with MASSIVE sponsorship, fanbase and backing. They usually get plenty of room to hold tournaments and just need some simple internet management (respawn figured this out on there first go) and you instantly have an event which viably can amuse hundreds of spectators for the length of the entire event. People play pingpong, fighting games, lan games, eat food, do cosplay competitions and get drunk. Basically it's a giant nerd party!

Dreamhack operates off this concept and it creates a sick atmosphere for the competitive games to be played amongst. The difficulty can be in providing computers for interstate players if there's a sponsorship clash, but normally this shouldn't be too huge an issue.

The Shit-slinging/Old-boys club point

As for the shit-slinging this was, I believe, Boss' best points. I talk to a lot of lesser known people in the sc2 SEA community and the consensus from a lot of them has been that they absolutely hate some of the forum behaviour exhibited by many of the SEA figures in sc2. Whether it started with the rep system or "TA vs Nirv: the endless rivalry" or just people being dicks I don't know. But basically a lot of people have been acting like morons lately. Including good friends of mine. I'm not going to name names but I would state as an example the way Light behaves on the forum as basically toeing the border between slightly amusing and complete moron. Ray you know I love you, and you know it's true. However there have been many people just being needlessly aggressive and antagonistic and it turns the community very sour.

EDIT: This was perfect example of me writing such a long post whilst sick. What I meant was that Light whilst antagonistic and self-admittedly an ass on the forums at times, would always draw the line and so i meant to point him as an example of someone who is somewhere between good and bad behaviour. The way I worded this was inappropriate and gave the wrong message. Sorry Ray!


In the past I've had problems with how people have acted as community figures and I usually try to bring it up in private on skype and at the very least understand where they are coming from. Unfortunately I've been very busy training and its tiring trying to help people remember to treat each other as human beings. Considering most people's attitudes to online interaction seems to be pretty much along the lines of "well if i take stuff seriously on the internet I'll just get offended every two seconds, so let's just act like dicks to make ourself immune to other people acting like dicks". That sort of attitude is one of the reasons why I never liked online interaction until SC2. This is meant to be the exception in that sc2 communities are somehow 500% better in general being bound together by the love of such a great game!

The "old boys club" or just tight-knit friends idea is something quite important. Remember if you only communicate with you direct group of friends or clanmates about the game it can never grow! And the sort of language and way to communicate in clan-chats, private skype-groups etc isn't suitable for forums especially if you're a community figure! When a community figure makes posts that seem outright offensive and stupid and miss the troll or the in-joke it alienates those not in on the pre-existing culture and limits growth.


Try to be inclusive, open and get out of your comfort zone to grow starcraft. Share your passion not just amongst those that already have the fire within them! But Light it anew in the hearts of your friends and family and make Starcraft something magical.

Edits (havent proofed it there will be many):
Added Quote re: coach choi
Added note about stream viewers stagnating - benji
Added my response re: ingame advertising and BYOC LAN integration
Added warning to stay on topic and summary of topic at start of OP
Added apology to Ray and a clarification on my intent there

Quick Comments

	TCPLemminks:	This is why we need uprep back
	mGGDaedalus:	Well said
	nirvAnA:	+1
	xGKingdelete:	very good points

[ToRSpartaz]

Whoally crap mate, I have always had a lot of respect for you, but even more reason to have it after reading your thread man.

I have to agree with you on most of your points man and I hope that people won't get offended or anything along those lines and people will come to realise what it means to be a part of this community because seriously I think all of us deeply value this community and it means a lot to I think would safe to say all of us.

I'm hoping that this thread people will respond positively to it and take some steps forward for the development of the scene and the community, by everyone adding and doing their part for SEA.

Much love piggy

[Benji]

Goddammit Pig, I did a video blog on this and am just getting around to proofing and rendering and you stole some of my points :P

Skim read as I am bout to go home from work, but one small error is:

As for viewer numbers I don't know what numbers you're looking at but since Benji unlocked how to use the TL featured stream function and the rest of SEA slowly learned from that, the views on SEA events have been steadily rising higher and higher.

This is incorrect, on average our stream viewer numbers have not significantly increased in the last year or so.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

post it anyway, damnit!

[PiG]

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

Goddammit Pig, I did a video blog on this and am just getting around to proofing and rendering and you stole some of my points :P

Skim read as I am bout to go home from work, but one small error is:



This is incorrect, on average our stream viewer numbers have not significantly increased in the last year or so.

That's fascinating news, I was going off of anecdotal evidence of Masters cup + your stream numbers for the most part. Edited this into the OP

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

As a viewer of many streams i haven't seen an increase in viewer numbers of SEA tournaments

[Benji]

Originally Posted by PiG

That's fascinating news, I was going off of anecdotal evidence of Masters cup + your stream numbers for the most part. Edited this into the OP

Yea, it can be misleading as some nights the stars align and you get a spike (the opposite happens too) but looking at the averages there isn't a great upward trend.

I'll scour my numbers when I get time (after xGTL tonight maybe) and get some more exact figures hopefully

Quick Comments

PiG:

eagerly awaiting your vod mate

[iM tgun]

I have nothing to add until Systems podcast thing. Then I will have supplementary material (see: props) to help tell my story.

Quick Comments

	ToRSpartaz:	WOOOOOH MORE TGUN!
	Zealo:	NOW HE HAS TO INVITE YOU ON AGAIN MUHAHAHAAHA
	nirvAnA:	+1 for bouncing tgun on systems show

[syfChadMann]

Well said,

But

Originally Posted by PiG

When a community figure makes posts that seem outright offensive and stupid and miss the troll or the in-joke it alienates those not in on the pre-existing culture and limits growth.

Saddle up yo.

Quick Comments

PiG:

haha good point :P

[Zealo]

link to what you're responding to at the top of the OP please?

Quick Comments

PiG:

done

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

I already kinda made what I thought of his blog known when I tweeted him some abuse.

But quite seriously, someone who leaves the community and doesn't continue to support it in anyway turning around and making revolting remarks about someone who has stood by and invested thousands of dollars and hours to make this community great is a slap in the face.

I have never lost respect for anyone that fast before, dude is a serious fuckhead.

[syfSoundwave]

I think if the matches were scheduled for the day after ACL or whatever then it's 100% understandable and even expected that some people miss their matches.

A shame that there were these kind of circumstances, because this was the best shot SEA ever had to prove they can compete.

EDIT: As a response to Maynarde's comment, best shot ever...so far.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

I reckon WCS finals is a pretty good shot not to mention IEM / MLG plans for SEA teams

[Dox]

iaguz and yoon had only just got home when they had to play their matches i think, and yoon left his mouse at ACL, so that was unfortunate.

If circumstances were better (i was in transit back to Brisbane) I'd have loved to submit an alternate player, but unfortunately it's not really something we could have planned for. As far as I'm aware, Yoon played out his matches with a faulty mouse anyway.

I was under the impression that events like Masters Cup have been rising in viewers over the last 12 months. We've seen some pretty staggering numbers sometimes! Part of me wonders if this is because we omit any shred of "SEA" identity from the title of the event. I tend to think most people avoid SEA branded events because (as far as they're concerned) we have nothing to offer them.

[nirvAnA]

Rogue, boss is sharing his opinion from his perspective as a long time organizer of events, lets not hate but try and have some positive discussion about the points he brought up

The fact our players have improved drastically and our events are getting better and better is absolutely without a doubt.

PiG that was a fantastic post, never knew what happened behind the scenes with the FXO tournament so thanks for sharing your side, im sure the people who were bashing you on stream would sympathize with you if they knew you were so sick. From FXO's side I believe they were doing us a favor by opening the qualifiers to us but because of really unfortunate timing many couldn't make it so when that happened they were understandably frustrated.

I hope they still plan to include us in future events as that exposure is what SEA players need. IMO every time a player from our region stands out the world views our region a little better. glade did this at two iems and wcg, and mafia did this by getting kr gm on reddit. And what dox said about how people view sea branded events is unfortunately true too and i feel it applies to a lot of smaller scenes too that people are unfamiliar about.

We NEED to reach these fans in alternative methods!

So true, its amazing Australia & Singapore have one of the highest GSL subscription rates but it seems there are so little players on our servers! A big reason why sc2sea was created in the first place was because our threads kept getting buried in TL and we had nowhere to go. A few months after sc2 was released there still wasn't any community site for our region and it made me very frustrated. As I had limited knowledge in web development, me and sheepy had a talk with some admins in the scene and suggested to them the idea of creating a portal for the sc2 scene but sadly they weren't interested at all. And everywhere else in the world was progressing except ours so a while later I decided **** it ill just learn and do it myself so at least our scene could have that chance to grow. I thought it would just be a tiny site (like the old aLt site which SG war3 players used) but it exceeded all my initial expectations. I think we have done reasonably well in bringing our community together so lets go further from here - we can do even better if we combine our efforts, get along (civilly) with each another and work towards a common goal.

We already have a strong homebase now, but we can be so much bigger/stronger if we had everyone's help. So get your friends on the site, get the lurkers you know to start posting, tell everyone who may not know about our community. We want more people playing starcraft and forums generally help a ton as it lets people follow the game even when not playing it or at work etc and keep people in the game or playing it longer. I spam the site to everyone I don't recognize meet on ladder, most of them already know about it, they just don't post so i've never heard of them before. But they are the ones i guess who come to barcrafts and stuff so the scene is actually 10x bigger then it appears to be, it just doesn't feel that way More people = more sponsors = more tournaments = more pros = brings in more people and this cycle will just perpetuate.




Here's the banner i made that shows up if you haven't posted in 3 weeks, to encourage people to post! I've also introduced "New member of the month" and "quality member for the month" for similar reasons, to encourage non-posters to be more involved in our community and to recognize the efforts of whose who have been.

As for alternative methods, the people who post on sc2sea are the more "serious" gamers so I think facebook is one of the best alternative ways to reach out for the more casual players who just log in to fb and don't post much on forums and thats basically thats how the Thailand community operates now that they have no site, and theres quite a lot of interaction in the sg facebook community page too.

The whole "The Shit-slinging/Old-boys club point" section has so much perfection in it I feel like quoting the whole thing.

"its tiring trying to help people remember to treat each other as human beings. "

"the sort of language and way to communicate in clan-chats, private skype-groups etc isn't suitable for forums especially if you're a community figure! "

"Try to be inclusive, open and get out of your comfort zone to grow starcraft."

Alot of the site's values were created with the view of growing the scene and creating a friendly warm environment that would help in that growth. Because of this theres an aversion to bming, trolling, elitist attitudes, bullying and attacks on people as it just turns forums to shit quickly if its tolerated and its an eyesore that pushes people away. A lot of those unhappy with the site's values are just not able to see the big picture and often end up taking admin decisions carried out personally when they shouldn't.

Enjoyable read 11/10!

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	lol, I won't post for 3 weeks just to have this :D
	PiG:	Nemo why no post!? I miss you! Also nirv the hero game was a ladder story i meant! I was too sick to even logon!

[FvRelimzkE]

This is why my signature has what it has!
I agree with most of the points made. I especially have an issue with the tight-knit oldm8 thing. New people getting bullied usually ends up in one of two ways: 1) The bullied person gets mad, learns how to rape everything in half, then comes back as a pro or 2) Leaves and plays LoL

Coming from elitist communities and being one of those dickhead bullies myself, I got to see two communities I love slowly dissolve into a few members just circle jerking each other off. Please don't let me witness that again here!

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	This right here. I've seen so many newer players get bullied and leave its just so sad.
	iVnStinger:	LOL (LoL)

[ROOT`iaguz]

Yea, my story was coming back home tired as shit, turning on my pc to see frequency telling me I gotta play grubby in 90 minutes.

I played my series vs grubby cuz I like grubby. I played 1 game vs violet and then forfeit cuz I know that normally I wouldn't beat these people anyway, but doing it from this condition was just impossible, and the quality of games I was playing was absolute dogshit. So... yea. **** that.

It's not FXO's fault that they scheduled a tournament right after that weekend, and I should of remembered the date in advance and realised the schedule clash and turned it down ahead of time before this happened. My bad T_T. But at least I get 3 embarrassing pathetic games to be streamed so there's my punishment!

Quick Comments

	PiG:	bad luck man that's a shame bad scheduling :(
	frequency:	"so I'm vs gimli first" - Grubby

[Cordance]

Personally my thoughts on FXO Boss have never been too high. He is very selfish in his actions and motivations the only reason I have respect for him at all is that he is completely honest about those things.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Alot of the site's values were created with the view of growing the scene and creating a friendly warm environment that would help in that growth. Because of this theres an aversion to bming, trolling, elitist attitudes, bullying and attacks on people as it just turns forums to shit quickly if its tolerated and its an eyesore that pushes people away. A lot of those unhappy with the site's values are just not able to see the big picture and often end up taking admin decisions carried out personally when they shouldn't.

Ive got to say this one of the main reasons I was so supportive of the site and community opens when things where starting with SC2. The site was/is about community.

As far as expanding the ouch reach of SC2 I actually think it is more a case in Australia of expanding the acceptability of gaming. Im often watching GSL on lunch breaks and such at work and often to talk to people about the excitement of pro gaming. I would actually say that at least 50% of the people I talk to about it mention another game they play. I always mention if there is a competition that I know about in their game of choice too which more often than not I get the response "I had no idea."

Most SC2 players who are still playing the game know of team liquid but probably more than half of the SEA players dont know about sc2sea. So remeber to mention the site when laddering.
A few key things people need to remember when sharing the site.
Do so before the game. Doing it after the game will generally make people either think they dont need it if they win, or your being an ass if you win.
If your sharing the site keep in mind it is meant to be a friendly place dont mention it unless your going to be friendly in game. AKA if you are prone to BM, super cheesy strats you might save it for another night.
An offer to talk after the game at the start of the game is also a good way to find a friend to bring into the community.
Keep in mind the start of the game is the time to talk after the game people are normally not in a receptive frame of mind.
Its hard for the "pros" to expand the community from in game because pros tend mostly to see other pro gamers.

Outside of the game remember to promote gaming when you can. Mentioning that you plan to watch ACL over a weekend can spark a conversation about gaming. You might be surprised how many people you already know that you didnt know gamed or even played starcraft.

[Meatex]

The fate of SEA server was sealed when blizzard herped on real id and completely cut communication between servers
If the SEA scene wants to grow got to encourage players from other servers to jump on SEA enough to warrant them wanting to be part of the community. We have some koreans that hang out here and play in the open tournaments and I think need to encourage more players somehow.
This will become so much easier with HotS when anybody will be able to jump on any server without needing to buy separate accounts so we may have to work towards that timing?

And about Boss, I don't necessarily dislike him but I certainly don't trust his word
I spent a lot of my free time working on 2 video projects for him on empty promises and blind hope. I was under immense stress at the time and had my gf nagging me as to why I was spending all my time working for free. It was always me that had to chase him up despite him always telling me I will get in touch with you soon about blah blah
When I was half way through the second video hearing Boss saying he has moved away from e-sports and now looking at clothing lines I started to doubt that my time was being well spent and quit shortly after

Quick Comments

AxS.Sorathez:

Hopefully, with the global servers idea that's being tossed around for HotS will fix the first part.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

The fate of SEA server was sealed when blizzard herped on real id and completely cut communication between servers
If the SEA scene wants to grow got to encourage players from other servers to jump on SEA enough to warrant them wanting to be part of the community. We have some koreans that hang out here and play in the open tournaments and I think need to encourage more players somehow.
This will become so much easier with HotS when anybody will be able to jump on any server without needing to buy separate accounts so we may have to work towards that timing?

And about Boss, I don't necessarily dislike him but I certainly don't trust his word
I spent a lot of my free time working on 2 video projects for him on empty promises and blind hope. I was under immense stress at the time and had my gf nagging me as to why I was spending all my time working for free. It was always me that had to chase him up despite him always telling me I will get in touch with you soon about blah blah
When I was half way through the second video hearing Boss saying he has moved away from e-sports and now looking at clothing lines I started to doubt that my time was being well spent and quit shortly after

Try to keep it on topic please guys (talking to you too rogue!). I don't know much about Boss and frankly don't care. I'm responding to the ideas expressed in his blog which was a talking point a few days ago. As for the Blizzard thing that reminded me of two points which I really think will grow esports!:

1) Integration of major tournament scene advertising with Battle.net. Battle.net should advertise ACL freely as they do for MLG and Dreamhack. When you logon to bnet it should have a link to the ACL event page around events. Same for barcrafts . Currently I've only seen this for WCS events...

2) ACL + SGL/Respawn style events:

SGL/Respawn have a sick casual gamers event with MASSIVE sponsorship, fanbase and backing. They usually get plenty of room to hold tournaments and just need some simple internet management (respawn figured this out on there first go) and you instantly have an event which viably can amuse hundreds of spectators for the length of the entire event. People play pingpong, fighting games, lan games, eat food, do cosplay competitions and get drunk. Basically it's a giant nerd party!

Dreamhack operates off this concept and it creates a sick atmosphere for the competitive games to be played amongst. The difficulty can be in providing computers for interstate players if there's a sponsorship clash, but normally this shouldn't be too huge an issue.

[inFeZa]

I'm gonna be totally blunt.

I Dislike FXO.

Sorry
¯\(°_o)/¯

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	LOL
	TAriiChard:	ROFL
	Zepph:	#winning
	x5_dot:	thanks for helping
	Pandan:	The constant self-promotion while doing nothing is what gets me the most...

[syfSoundwave]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

I'm gonna be totally blunt.

I Dislike FXO.

Sorry
¯\(°_o)/¯

I don't dislike them, but I like them a hell of a lot less than I used to. They used to have tgun, SLoG, mOOnGLaDe and all these other foreigners and were pioneers, heading into the great unknown of Korea despite all the trolls and hecklers saying they couldn't do it. Then qxc got a ******* all-kill.

But now they're just another Korean team to me. Obviously BoSs is happy because KR FXO is a much stronger team, but they've lost their connection with the foreign fans.

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by PiG

The Shit-slinging/Old-boys club point

This.

Unfortunately the people doing it are usually the most vocal and somwhat 'popular' people on these forums/Chatbox. U disagree with one of them and a herd of morons come at you even though your points might be valid.

2nd: Trolling. I never understood it and i bet 99% of you dont either. Someone made a fantastic blog about this topic as well although i cant seem to find it. It really isnt funny to pick on one person and have your friends come and laugh with you even though most of the ppl around dont know exactly whats so funny.

In short, alot of people are bullies on Sc2sea and ive seen alot of players left our community just because they said something silly or disagreed with a ''popular'' figure in our community.

On the topic of declining stream numbers and lack of SEA players in global tournaments. IMO it will only get worse. Stream numbers have not been increasing and will probably start to decline, the gap between top players and SEA players will only increase with the exception of a few(Mafia). I just dont see how we can compete without real Pro teams paying you wages to train. How is it possible to close the gap when you have school, jobs and other committments?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

This.

Unfortunately the people doing it are usually the most vocal and somwhat 'popular' people on these forums/Chatbox. U disagree with one of them and a herd of morons come at you even though your points might be valid.

2nd: Trolling. I never understood it and i bet 99% of you dont either. Someone made a fantastic blog about this topic as well although i cant seem to find it. It really isnt funny to pick on one person and have your friends come and laugh with you even though most of the ppl around dont know exactly whats so funny.

In short, alot of people are bullies on Sc2sea and ive seen alot of players left our community just because they said something silly or disagreed with a ''popular'' figure in our community.

On the topic of declining stream numbers and lack of SEA players in global tournaments. IMO it will only get worse. Stream numbers have not been increasing and will probably start to decline, the gap between top players and SEA players will only increase with the exception of a few(Mafia). I just dont see how we can compete without real Pro teams paying you wages to train. How is it possible to close the gap when you have school, jobs and other committments?

NA has a pretty sick SC2 scene that whilst not ideal, is still thriving. And yet they don't have proper pro teams other then EG. Nonetheless there are passionate young dudes who put it on the line to get insanely good: Huk, Illusion etc... We don't need to necessarily be able to be as competitive as the Korean scene to be successful. Does Australia stop playing Soccer because Brazil or Spain will always have stronger sides then them? Hells no!

We already have a lot of sc2 fans here and my key point is it's simply a few small things not getting them down to LANs!

[Dox]

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

This.

Unfortunately the people doing it are usually the most vocal and somwhat 'popular' people on these forums/Chatbox. U disagree with one of them and a herd of morons come at you even though your points might be valid.

This is a slight de-rail, but I just wanted to chime in and say I agree with this. It bothers me when two people are discussing/disagreeing on something and people blindly ride in on their high horses and tell them to cut it out / get along / take it to PM's. Discussion leads to disagreement. Disagreement leads to debate. Debate leads to change. Change often leads to improvement.

Some people call this "bickering", whilst others recognise it as a valuable step in cultural/social advancement.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	I like this post..
	x5_Potter:	Take it to PM's buddy...
	frequency:	I hope everyone else read that in Yoda's voice
	NOM:	agree 100000%
	cruxSpoon:	I thought you were going to say, disagreement leads to hate, leads to anger, leads to dark side
	Baldie:	I agree, the only thing that needs to be avoided is making things personal.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Dox

This is a slight de-rail, but I just wanted to chime in and say I agree with this. It bothers me when two people are discussing/disagreeing on something and people blindly ride in on their high horses and tell them to cut it out / get along / take it to PM's. Discussion leads to disagreement. Disagreement leads to debate. Debate leads to change. Change often leads to improvement.

Some people call this "bickering", whilst others recognise it as a valuable step in cultural/social advancement.

There's disagreeing constructively and debating using the forum as it's meant to be. Then there's making snide or derogatory comments or simply disagreeing with no reasoning behind the disagreement. That sort of forum activity is counter-productive and it especially becomes a problem when the friends of those people hop on and back up those unsubstantiated points with a series of attacks or blind reinforcements of what was a trash original statement.

There have been times where the original statement when called out for it's lack of substance ends up being fleshed out by people who didn't even make the original post. Hence the reference to circle-jerking, bandwagonning etc etc.

As I said it hasn't been a major problem recently and I haven't seen it happen in the last week but there have been a few phases where it has just dragged the forum culture into the ground. Multiple people have spoken to me in those phases about why they hadn't been visiting sc2sea. Otherwise I would probably be convinved it's just my imagination/all in my head.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

perfect

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Dox

This is a slight de-rail, but I just wanted to chime in and say I agree with this. It bothers me when two people are discussing/disagreeing on something and people blindly ride in on their high horses and tell them to cut it out / get along / take it to PM's. Discussion leads to disagreement. Disagreement leads to debate. Debate leads to change. Change often leads to improvement.

Some people call this "bickering", whilst others recognise it as a valuable step in cultural/social advancement.

I wholeheartedly agree - most of the time. There is a fine line with this that often gets crossed though, and there are times when the people involved would do well to realise that as someone centrally implicated in the whole thing, they are not necessarily in a position to objectively evaluate how badly devolved an argument has become. There are also times when this approach to things just flat out is inappropriate. There are definitely people who chime in when they have basically no business doing so, and their calls to "knock it off" create a fierier situation than there originally was. But then there's people who actually step in as a voice of reason, and their words should be heeded (I am thinking specifically of people like PiG here).

Basically, I think a lot of it comes down to respect for others, and particularly managing to not be disrespectful, whichever role you play in this.

[FXOBoSs]

Pig,

I must thank you for a very competent, intelligent response to my blog. Its actually really nice for me personally to get such a response rather than the various twitter responses I have been getting.

Of course, as stated in my blog, there are exemptions to the facts such as yourself being sick, with what happened with our event and I have been following your career quite a bit of late with the media you are getting as well as watching various games and tuning into the SEA events when I can.

I am going to go way out on a limb here and address not your point so much, but the points that have been brought up within this thread.

Firstly, the "he has dumped SEA" so on so forth comments.

I live in Malaysia, I support the local scene, I provide help and advice to those who wish to start their own events in this area of the world, and when I have time, I run my own events. I would be doing it more often if the SC2 scene was not dead here. I like to give back to my community and thats just how I am. Everything I have ever invested into SEA, except for SEA players, is from my own pocket.

I think one big illusion of SEA is that AUS/NZ = SEA. It doesn't, reach out to AUS means you are hitting the same people all the time. There is a HUGE viewership available to the SEA region that is not being utilised, but I do not have the means at this point in time to capture it, and also its hard to then make it monetarily viable for a company with large consolidated cash sponsorships (i.e all money in 1 place for easier management).

But at the same time, accessibility to events is extremely difficult for Australians, and given that E-sports actually hasn't got huge amounts of money in it, it is very difficult for Aussies and Kiwis to get a great chance to travel to events. I won't argue that its extremely hard for AUS/NZ people to part take in what is a growing international scene.

All this being said.... The best opportunities for SEA players, are those that are international. You want to lure the money to your scene, you want to get the support you deserve/demand, then these events (such as FXOIS but there are more important ones) are the ones you should be making sure you get to on time and stick to the schedule and rules (not directed at you pig). This is how you will get the true growth in the scene.

As for practice, I have no idea how SEA players practice. I can believe its extremely difficult for some with latency issues and what not. But there are enough of you as friends with great minds and skill to collaborate together and grow quickly and skillfully. Your advantage is that no one has exposure to you as players, with a bit of creativity, you guys can bring out the strategies that have never been seen before.

There are players with Korean experience, Tgun, Glade, both have enough knowledge to pass on about training environments and schedules. I know some people don't believe in the large practice time = large pay out method. But so far only Stephano has proven the world wrong. The others who have been saying that are now mid tier at best. Things such as a collective vent discussing GSL matches etc can be considered practice.

Anyway.

I am more than happy to invest in SEA... I am just not going to invest in something that is SEA only. It doesn't achieve anything, right now, for a number of reasons. The first reason being that the player numbers are just too small. The skill gap between last and first is too great and the exposure is miserable (almost 50x less than an international event).
One idea I have been personally toying with is an NA vs SEA style tournament. The fall of NA and the rise of SEA should keep it relatively even in terms of skill and the viewership will be triple that of any SEA event. More viewership = more money, plain and simple.

I applaud those of you who are in SEA doing the hard yards to try to get events up and running such as Dox. But at the same time, having power struggles and mental crisis' are not going to achieve your own goals, or help anything.

Its very easy to have the "so why don't you do it mentality" actually its the easiest way out of fixing the problem. I have too, invested thousands of my own money and company money, not to mention the resources I have to try to prop up SEA, but I do work for a company, business, which will always come first. Not to mention, I am not the only person who makes the decisions.

Anyway, I do wish everything to come out rosy in SEA and I wait for the next Legionnaire (or return of). So that I can cheer for him/her/them the same way I did when I was 15.

Peace

Sorry for the Essay, I hoped to just nail it all in 1 post.

[Dox]

Originally Posted by FXOBoSs

I applaud those of you who are in SEA doing the hard yards to try to get events up and running such as Dox. But at the same time, having power struggles and mental crisis' are not going to achieve your own goals, or help anything.

I think labels like "power struggles" and "mental crises" are heavy exaggerations. The phrasing suggests a few small disagreements resulted in catastrophes to the extent of PPSL.

Occasionally I choose to voice my opinion and I welcome the opinions of others, it doesn't need to be viewed as a flaming feud when those perspectives don't align. Just because I disagree with something Benji says about a player, or respectfully accept a decision Bryan makes doesn't mean I hate them and I want to see them burn. I continue to respect and appreciate their contributions to the scene and I carry on doing what I do. (Same applies for when I inadvertently upset Dan.)

I'd really love for you FXO fellas to come on over and attend an ACL event one day. I think you'll be proud to see what these talented guys have accomplished over the last year. The Australian scene has come a long way since you guys shipped out. As far as population density goes, we're never gonna catch the rest of the world. But when it comes to infrastructure, production and professionalism, ACL is world class. And I'm not tooting my own horn here. I'm a really small fish in the grand scheme of ACL. There are half a dozen unsung heroes who really make the magic happen.

Anywho, I know AU/NZ doesn't represent SEA as a whole, but I just wanted to share that little bit. There is a common misconception that we're stagnating. This is definitely not the case.

[PiG]

this thread isn't about FXO. Soundwave, infeza, im looking at you.

Quick Comments

	Meatex:	make this man mod already - he deserves it :P
	inFeZa:	DW I'll make a seperate thread.

[Cyanide]

Should prolly reword title and headers to reflect that it is a response to the POINTS he brought up.
I guess putting "response to FXOBoss" would make people more inclined to discuss about FXO and/or Boss. =P

Quick Comments

PiG:

added thing at start in big red writing :P Cheers

[Another]

what in fighting and shit slinging? i havent seen anything of the sort, i couldnt really name any two people who hate each other in SEA. am i living under a rock or something?

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	yes
	TCPLemminks:	There hasn't been for a while
	Stallion:	yes yes u are mr ShireToss
	iM yang:	you know full well of my hate for zanooku, he's the only top player i hate
	ToRSpartaz:	Hehe shiretoss

[PiG]

Originally Posted by IrisAnother

what in fighting and shit slinging? i havent seen anything of the sort, i couldnt really name any two people who hate each other in SEA. am i living under a rock or something?

Basically there have been personality clashes, rivalries, jealousies and petty hatreds between a few of the key organisers, players and casters has led to mini circle-jerk fights between groups of friends and players etc. It really hasn't gotten too bad as an overall forum pattern. But the fact that influential figures as well as groups of friends backing them up have at times acted this way has created some bad blood in the community.

The funny thing is around the time of big events like ACL, GESC and all the tournaments around them this behaviour tends to die down to a degree as everyone players, casters and organisers are all knuckling down and working towards something beautiful: ESPORTSSS. I think just keeping those attitudes to private areas and people treating each other professionally and with respect would aid this.

Quick Comments

Cordance:

I know you dont want this to be about FXO but they where a significant cause of such actions hence the minor derailment

[Sunset]

Oh, I am so getting amongst this thread when I get home from work ^_^ Good job, Piggu.

[randomness]

boss is soooo right about the scene in malaysia right now. it's practically non-existant. There's no barcraft around here, no one plays the game too.

[Konnect.4]

Let me put in my 2 cents here (even though I'm a diamond scrub at sc2 lol)

There are 2 scenes in Australia which I closely follow, dancing and (obviously) starcraft. There are actually a huge number of parallels that can be drawn from my 2 hobbies.

The dance scene in Australia is about half a decade or so more matured than the eSports scene which, as you have said, PiG, is really growing rapidly right now. Like sc2 the global dance scene is dominated by Korea, they have a harder work ethic and more rigorous training schedule. We have dancers that try to keep up, but at the end of it they are hindered by the Australia's remote location.

Aside from limited exposure we are removed from the current 'metagame' of dance until it is actively published via blogs, YouTube etc. This is my worry for eSports down under, do you think this can be overcome in the sc2 scene?

For example, in dance, the newest move or latest technique may have already been used at a battle/competition but we won't hear about it until days or even months later. The same can be said for sc2, the koreans, americans etc. may have already moved on to a newer greater meta but it takes so long for this information to trickle down we are just months behind and, therefore, not competitive.

Do you have any ideas on how you are able to overcome this?

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Many people play on KR/NA/EU, plus we have access to every stream/tournament - gameplay wise I think we're up to date
	PiG:	diamond isn't scrub! modest!
	nirvAnA:	in the past some of the FXO guys moved to korea just to have the exact enviroment the koreans did!

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by Konnect.4

Let me put in my 2 cents here (even though I'm a diamond scrub at sc2 lol)

There are 2 scenes in Australia which I closely follow, dancing and (obviously) starcraft. There are actually a huge number of parallels that can be drawn from my 2 hobbies.

The dance scene in Australia is about half a decade or so more matured than the eSports scene which, as you have said, PiG, is really growing rapidly right now. Like sc2 the global dance scene is dominated by Korea, they have a harder work ethic and more rigorous training schedule. We have dancers that try to keep up, but at the end of it they are hindered by the Australia's remote location.

Aside from limited exposure we are removed from the current 'metagame' of dance until it is actively published via blogs, YouTube etc. This is my worry for eSports down under, do you think this can be overcome in the sc2 scene?

For example, in dance, the newest move or latest technique may have already been used at a battle/competition but we won't hear about it until days or even months later. The same can be said for sc2, the koreans, americans etc. may have already moved on to a newer greater meta but it takes so long for this information to trickle down we are just months behind and, therefore, not competitive.

Do you have any ideas on how you are able to overcome this?

DrGooSe here: t0o lazy to relog. By virtue of the fact that sc2 is an online sport and beamed direct to everyone's computer, being behind is likely to be a matter of weeks rather than months. However, This lag is going to persist until such time as we have the kinds of tournaments where the current meta is being developed (i.e GSL's IEM's Dreamhacks, etc.), and more importantly, the kinds of practice sessions (team houses, 8 hour/day practices among teams) that allow for understanding of new meta. More importantly, is that this infrastructure is perhaps required to not just follow new meta, but create it.

To use an analogy from science. I can read something in a science paper coming from Aus, Europe or the US, and then find it again 3 months later coming from a Chinese author. In China, perhaps that's considered OK. In western science, you would never get funding because science (and sc2 meta game) is about being the first to invent/discovery/explain, not the first to understand and incorporate what someone else did 3 months ago. Now this is something we a definitely capable of, but not without the proper infrastructure - entire team(s) of full time players.

I think sc2 is gonna be a bit like soccer for a while. For a long time, Australian soccer was nothing. Them we made a world cup, and Frank Lowy and Anthony Lapaglia invested millions into the sport, likely expecting to lose it all. And now we have a fantastically more popular and powerful sport. SEA SC2 requires a catalyst. Someone to go and win IEM, Dreamhack, etc. We need a rally point - we need Mel Gibson on a horse with face paint.

ETA: OMG will you stop posting as me you silly boy Or at least proofread if you do!!!!!

Edit 2 (DrGooSe): ETA = estimated time of arrival...??? Silly person. Mmmm Southern Comfort (^_^)

EDITED TO ADD: you are silly, getting me drunk and posting on my account.... I finished my drink btw...

Quick Comments

x5_dot:

LOL mel gibson?? can't we have harry potter instead? :P

[PiG]

Konnect I think the strength of esports is its accessibility! I think if people have more meetups or train harder they can match those Koreans! I think we will always be at a disadvantage whether in dance or in esports but it doesn't need to be as massive as some make out. Australia, a country with next to no snow has given rise to some of the best snow-sport athletes in the world! I think we just need to develop one step at a time and for the moment our best might have to travel overseas to reach the top international level but the goal is to nurture a strong enough scene at the grassroots and national levels so that our future talents can develop fully here. What this takes is a hell of a lot of passion from a lot of people. But I don't think it's beyond us!

[Konnect.4]

Originally Posted by Asrathiel

we need Mel Gibson on a horse with face paint.

SOLD!!!

Originally Posted by PiG

Konnect I think the strength of esports is its accessibility! I think if people have more meetups or train harder they can match those Koreans! I think we will always be at a disadvantage whether in dance or in esports but it doesn't need to be as massive as some make out. Australia, a country with next to no snow has given rise to some of the best snow-sport athletes in the world! I think we just need to develop one step at a time and for the moment our best might have to travel overseas to reach the top international level but the goal is to nurture a strong enough scene at the grassroots and national levels so that our future talents can develop fully here. What this takes is a hell of a lot of passion from a lot of people. But I don't think it's beyond us!

It definitely isn't and it's obviously all our dreams to have this be the case one day. Good point with the snow sports. I guess, the way I see it, there is no "snow boarding 2" etc. I'm cautious as to how long it will take for the Aussie scene to mature to a point where we are competitive. If it took, say, winter sport events 20 years to get to a point where Australia was at the lead, could the sc2 scene replicate those results and that evolution in a quarter of the time before the next instalment of sc where it's a rat race back to the top again? I guess only time will tell, and the support for our Aussie progamers. PiG hwaiting!!

[eCKo`Switch]

I feel like the problem with SEA is the fact that people outside of those that frequent this site just aren't really giving it a chance. I see so many posts outside on the more popular sites like TL and reddit trashing SEA as though it doesn't even exist. I'm fairly new here, and before I got a chance to get to know some of the people here, I kind of had the bandwagon mindset of "HURRR SEA GM = EU DIAMOND" seeing as I only posted on TL/reddit etc, but after I lurked here for a while, I realised that everyone here is nerd baller out the ass, and that there are some sick world class players.

TL;DR SEA needs more exposure, and people from the more popular websites need to stop being f--king sheep.

Edit in respose to Konnect.4
I think we have people with enough skill to do extremely well in a major foreign event to be that catalyst - it's kinda down to who has the balls to put the money behind the players to get there. It's a risk that I doubt a whole lot of people are willing to take.

Quick Comments

Konnect.4:

Exposure comes with skill, as Goose mentioned above, you need a catalyst. A HuK or an IdrA that brings success.

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

I think people need to understand that population wise SEA may never have the same following as other areas, as well as the popularity of other games such as LoL and dota etc our audiences will always be smaller and our communitiy will never reach the same size as Korea and America.

In New Zealand for example, we have already seen a huge growth in people involved in SC2, once regular tournaments and barcrafts were established more and more people have been taking part in the community and coming here to sc2sea to post etc. I guess most people just know TL and Reddit and don't continue to look closer to home for a number of reasons:

1 - They haven't had a friend introduce them to SC2SEA and they either don't know it exists or they are too afraid to approach what seems to be a bunch of people who all know each other well.

2 - They are getting what they need from places like TL and Reddit and don't WANT to be a part of the local scene

3 - They don't actively participate in tournaments and are more of a casual player who doesn't really have a lot of community involvement at all.

I think in time more people will find there way here and our numbers will grow, already we are getting good turnouts to events such as barcrafts etc, but maybe we need to harness these audiences to make them aware of the wider community? This would draw in new members and there is plenty of untapped potential too. There would be almost 200 regular Auckland Barcrafters who don't post on here, and that is just the tip of the NZ iceburg.

We definitely have the talent and the content, we make posts in all the right places and the world knows we exist, but do the people in our own countries really know we are here?

Quick Comments

	Konnect.4:	I think 2. is the most common. TL and Reddit are huge and fulfil their own niche where does sc2sea fit in?
	nirvAnA:	Such a good post :) Those three factors do seem like the biggest factors!

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by FXOBoSs

I am more than happy to invest in SEA... I am just not going to invest in something that is SEA only. It doesn't achieve anything, right now, for a number of reasons. The first reason being that the player numbers are just too small. The skill gap between last and first is too great and the exposure is miserable (almost 50x less than an international event).
One idea I have been personally toying with is an NA vs SEA style tournament. The fall of NA and the rise of SEA should keep it relatively even in terms of skill and the viewership will be triple that of any SEA event. More viewership = more money, plain and simple.

Money where your mouth is.
Host a tournament where you send the winner to MLG (interchangeable for, IEM, GSL, Dreamhack etc...)
meets all of the criteria you've mentioned... and will prove that SEA can compete with the rest of the world.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	You mean FXO pickup a new SEA player?
	nirvAnA:	I think FXO already gave some SEA players an amazing opportunity, MLG, Korea, etc

[FXOBoSs]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

Money where your mouth is.
Host a tournament where you send the winner to MLG (interchangeable for, IEM, GSL, Dreamhack etc...)
meets all of the criteria you've mentioned... and will prove that SEA can compete with the rest of the world.

We already sent tgun to MLG twice, glade to Korea. Tgun has done well at MLG before. Tgun was also part of our GSTL team, and almost qualified for code A.

How about I talk to Choya and let Pig stay in the FXO house in Korea. Housing and food paid for? I think thats a more worthy investment than the one you suggested.

Of course there will be commitments required but I heard recently he is going to KR. And our roster is pretty zerg heavy.

There are sometimes more valuable things to do than spend money. Such as help train someone in the KR environment so they are more competitive internationally.

Edit: The reason I mentioned glade and tgun is because I know the cost and I know there is no way to make up that cost if the player is not on my team. Thus it is not a good business decision by any means.

Quick Comments

	TCPLemminks:	Or send mafia as well?
	iM yang:	SEND YANG
	syfChadMann:	They were your players... why not support the whole scene rather than your team...? if that is what you are all about.
	PiG:	any support and the chance to train with a top Korean team would be hugely appreciated!

[mGGDrGooSe]

Originally Posted by IrisRogue

I think in time more people will find there way here and our numbers will grow, already we are getting good turnouts to events such as barcrafts etc, but maybe we need to harness these audiences to make them aware of the wider community?

sc2sea.com banners at barcrafts??? Surely Paragon wouldn't mind one banner up there somewhere? Get the banners up at CH, ACL and BYOC lans as well?

Quick Comments

	x5_dot:	banner competition?
	nirvAnA:	this sounds brilliant!!!!!!!!!

[inFeZa]

Okay -
More on topic, i just wanted to say somewhere how i feel about the team, thought here would be a good place, maybe not - sorry pig and dot i know how you guys were, read on for more info.

First off - Yes the SEA Scene has grown a lot recently, i've seen a huge jump in skill of our players from the times of old where it was just glade and nobody else was close to his skill level or as well known, now that gap is kinda closing and our players are getting there name out there. Mafia hitting top page for getting korean GM, ITG incontrol, idra painuser mentioned a few players that are playing at WCS aus and said it will be an exciting tournament to watch.
I always hear stories from TA chat or other chats on which players got defeated by our good old SEA heros on KR or NA ladder, nowdays kinda hard with all the barcodes but i still believe some pros are sitting behind those accounts.
Good! We're getting better! Great!

Boss' Blog & PiG.

PiG was scheduled to play his games at my house, yes my place in melbourne when he was still in melbourne on holdiays with dot, and this was probably interfering with dot's sightseeing time. But he was too sick to make it to mine, and the dinner that we scheduled the next night. I think he was quite ill to play. Besides there was also an inconsiderate patch that day so i couldn't even log on to NA.

The rest of the players? No idea, but i got sick, dox, deth and a few others i know also got sick after ACL. So quite unfortunate. Leaving Mid-Series is quite uncalled for, maybe the cat was on fire? hope a good excuse was at hand ~

I think it's great that FXO is giving us this opportunity to play in this tournament, it is, but I don't think you should be praised for giving SEA a great opportunity by giving us invites, players here have the talent to qualify like anybody else (maybe not the latency tho). Still don't like you guys, but great! ~

It has been a while since a SEA player has been on the international stage, Maybe not TargA being in the NASL, ripping up well knowns on ******* 3g internet. If those maps were played with 50~ms ping i think it would have gone a lot more favourable for TargA.
With WCS around the corner we should have a good representation for SEA. I have high hopes for the players who will represent the region.

How can you help grow starcraft?

You don't have to do shit all. Just enjoy the game at your own leisure. No body is forcing you to 'watch a stream or you kill esports'. Content shouldn't be shoved down your throats. We should strive to make better more entertaining content ourselves, this way you'll be enticed to watch it because you want to. not because we're telling you to.

About scenes "dying" and this old boys club bullshit
It's kinda a weird thing and hard to explain my opinion... If theres no money to be won then there will be no players, but if there is money to be won, then players will fight and compete for it. So you can't say you won't support a scene because it is dead. Maybe it's dead because there was nothing to compete for in the first place? Yet its hard to put money up for prize with little return on investment. Catch 22.
My point is: imo scenes don't die because of the lack of players, but of the lack of competition set by events/sponsors. I have no background in running tournaments, so yeah...


Everything here is my opinion. Take it however you want. I probably won't read your counter opinions HA

[ACL inmaniac]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

How can you help grow starcraft?

You don't have to do shit all.

I really disagree with this haha.

I'm an SC2 noob, but I know a lot about eSports and especially ACL. I know a lot of the numbers and figures, including stream numbers. I also know that our advertisement, marketing and word-of-mouth awareness could really use a HUGE improvement.

Although I agree with Infeza about the "you don't have to watch a stream or you kill eSports' theme, I do think we can all put in a conscious effort to help spread awareness of our scene. It's amazing the people that I come across who LOVE Starcraft, they're mad for it, but they have no idea who ACL is, nor do they know the Moonglades, Pigs or Mafias of our community. Ask them who Tastosis or MVP are though and they'll death stare you to the point you're scared.

I don't think it's any one person's, nay, any one organisation's job, to promote the SEA SC2 scene. It's down to all of us, and I really believe that. We can talk about all these issues and all these problems all night and into the morning, but let's face it, no one can compete or even watch if they don't know we exist!

A lot of responsibility falls on the organisations to promote themselves, and they do what they can with the resources at hand, but more could always be done. The community though is what I think will make a difference. If we all just make that small, conscious effort to promote that Aussie stream you're watching, tell those few nerdy friends of yours about the next ACL event, tell everyone you know about the next Masters Cup! Post on Your Facebook, Twitter, everywhere! You don't have to spam, but if everyone just made an effort to let other people know about our scene we will surely grow!

I probably diverted from the main theme of this thread, but this is something I'm passionate about. Much to SC2SEA, you guys are awesome!

EDIT - short version, what Dox said!! >_<

EDIT #2 - Justice, you are now my friend. Next time say hi to the staff!

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	Much <3 to ACL too !
	inFeZa:	Yeah i understand why you disagree, my point (kinda vague) Is to just watch because you enjoy it! :)

[NOM]

Unfortunately being a smaller community. Every small mistake means allot and leads to posts such as this.

I'm kind of provoked about this but I see where he's coming from.

Maybe not the biased rabble about FXOpen because it was rather hypocritical of being "unprofessional". It was rather a screw up in both ends, not just for the players.

Iv'e seen this when I was helping out for a SC2 tournament in Melbourne which was a success but fell into a massive slump on the last 2 tournaments and lost heaps of money. Why? Because the promotion was getting sloppy and there wasn't enough communication, and the fact that this is still a common habit in tournaments for the past year I have been involved with the SC2 does sicken me a fair bit (Congrats to ACL, they know what they're doing). It's frustrating for everyone but it's unessential to point fingers.

I also agree that the "shit-slinging" is absurd, There are unresolved shit storms that have been going on since Iv'e joined SC2sea. People need to actually use their brains and think what they are doing without covering it with their ego. How hard is it to actually think "Oh wow I am actually a ******* dickhead, why did I actually do this?"

I support constructive criticism but when It gets to the point where there is swearing or out-of-topic criticism It makes me want to take a massive dump. Like seriously. Most people that are active on these forums are in their 20’s, 30’s? Shouldn’t you guys start acting your age and find constructive ways of resolving arguments?

It doesn’t help that there a so many people try and mask this shit with “OMFG NOT THIS AGAIN” “DON’T SAY SUCH CRUEL THINGS” “WHAT A DICKHEAD” “I NOW HATE THIS PERSON” “WHAT A DOUCHE”. I’m sorry but it will only seem better for yourself, nobody else outside side the SEA community would really care, and It just makes you look like an idiot.

Acceptance is the first stage of getting somewhere, and I do believe some people are doing this. However nothing will happen until everybody accepts and moves on.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	Oh wow I am actually a ******* dickhead :d
	PiG:	i like you
	Stallion:	a wise post

[justice]

Hi!

I've been a member of this website for a while but I've never really found a decent opportunity to join in with the community, I guess the whole thing seemed fairly intimidating.

I attended the ACL Melbourne event on the weekend (Sunday) as a spectator and have since decided that I really want to be a part of the SEA E-Sports community.

I just wanted to post my experiences here as an 'outsider', so hopefully it might help you guys as leading figures in the SEA community get through to more people like me and eventually make the community grow.

My history is this really. I'm been in to competitive games for a long long time but never RTS. I used to play a lot of Counter-Strike and Battlefield and most shooters. I always loved the style of StarCraft and wanted to play, but was terrible at all things RTS. I never understood the concept of macro and didn't understand how battling the interface of a game was fun Blah blah blah I saw some footage of SC2 beta and pretty much decided I wanted to actually get not terrible at this game regardless of how much of a slow push it was gonna be.

It was a really slow transition. SC2 comes out and i get placed bronze like a ******* champion and stay in there for a season or two but then slowly work my way up through to platinum. At this stage it was all simple macro and basic mechanics, I understood the basics but knew that if I wanted to push in to Diamond and higher I'd need some more efficient builds and regular practice SO I VENTURED TO THE INTERNET! Discovering TeamLiquid was great, but I didn't like the idea of joining a large international community and preferred something more local.

I found some streams and discovered some Australians played and I was like shit yeah there's an Aussie community! I watched Mafia stream cause he seemed pretty cool and I found iaguz who was great to watch because I played Terran. I'd talk in chat a bit and ask questions, mostly interacting with the other viewers. This is for me where it started to get interesting.

More often than not, a question asked would result in sarcastic replies and insults. I once somehow got invited to spectate a clan war whom I wont mention the names of because it's not really that important and I realise that this was just a random scrim between two teams who are just having fun, but the reaction to an outsider sitting in a spectator slot was unbelievably negative. "who the **** is ____" "get out" "lol scrub". The conversations were incredibly immature and beyond any norms of standard social fun making. I realise that I was in the middle of two social groups and i don't expect everyone to be stoic and super professional, but it did make me never want to be apart of that again, nor have anything to do with particular players of particular teams. I've continued to watch streams, copy builds and occasionally interact with stream viewers, but it's still ridiculous the amount of snide and immature remarks from people in the chats of these streams not only from average viewers but recognisable names of players from teams we all know.

I'd pretty much decided to shelve the idea of participating in the SEA community by then. It was never a pleasant experience and the whole concept was intimidating for someone who wasn't i guess up to par with the current incrowd or any decent at the game to earn some form of respect from tournament results.

I moved to Melbourne almost a year ago now from Tasmania and attended the Silicon Sports barcrafts at The Exchange and met a few people there, the people I did interact with were pretty nice and it's rekindled my interest in the SEA community. I knew there were tourneys going on around Melbourne every now and again and wanted to either spectate or participate but never really found an opportunity. I stumbled upon a facebook repost about ACL and discovered that was on last weekend and thought of attending. I didn't realise the production value was so high until I tuned in on Saturday and was pleasantly surprised. Talking to people in the chat everyone was really nice and encouraging of coming down to the event so I shuffled some things around at work and gave myself Sunday off so I could come down. I headed down and met up with a mate and started watching some games, mostly on the main screen and then watching some of the players play (iaguz is a monster!). I never really found opportunity to talk to any of the people competing or much of the staff, everyone looked super busy and I didn't want to interrupt any of that. Everyone seemed really happy and nice enough to approach, but I just didn't want to interrupt anyone. I had a really great time and really look forward to the next time ACL is in Melbourne (I want to compete in the open bracket and get knocked out 2-0 first game like a boss) and I can't wait to attend the BarCraft GSL and GSTL finals weekend coming up soon.

I feel like this community is incredibly difficult to become a useful part of and can become insanely huge if it is worked and marketed the right way. I'm not really sure how that is but I know want to be a part of it and I try to promote this stuff aswell

This post has trailed off a bit and I've talked a lot of garbage. I'm not even sure if this wall of text is going to be of any use but HEY, I posted on this forum and might continue in future. I'm reading back through what I wrote and the whole thing is a bit messy, I guess I just wanted to get those negative experiences i had a while back off my chest and onto these forums.

Anyways.

This is my cool story, you can call me bro.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	Welcome to the site, awesome post! <3
	eCKo`Switch:	It's always the lurkers that make the most quality posts <3
	PiG:	thanks this is such a valuable perspective which I was dying to hear. Anyone with similar stories please speak up!
	nirvAnA:	new member of the month incoming!
	NOM:	Should of spoken up at acl, would of given you a bag of tiny teddies :P. its ok i was a sc2 lurker/creeper for ages
	Cyanide:	+1, it's hard to get into such a small community because it's like trying to get into an already established clique.
	x5_dot:	i see your name around a lot though... welcome to sc2sea though!
	xGKingdelete:	post more bro ^^~

[Dox]

P.S. Nom's post just reminded me of something I wanted to echo from PiG's original post:

There are so many un-tapped resources. University Facebook groups are one of the biggest ones. But Reddit/TL are severely underestimated. Over the ACL weekend, I posted a thread on Reddit and asked participants/fans/stream viewers to up-vote the thread. It only received ~30 upvotes over the course of the entire weekend, even though we had like 500 people in the stream at the time. This is the sort of stuff we need people actively doing. Don't just think to yourself, "oh, someone else will do it" because every number counts. When you have 50 people retweeting a stream or a bracket link, with several hundred upvoting a thread on Reddit/TL, we may not see the results immediately. But eventually we'll be in the face of the global community so frequently and consistently that we become mainstream content. The effort needs to come from within.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	Yes this is a really big thing which we need to get in the habit of doing just on our phones!
	NOM:	I regret doing this for the GESC but not for ACL. Unlike Syd where i spammed like crazy :(
	inFeZa:	agreeeeee just look at mafia! His stream got ~200 viewers when he was on top of reddit

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Dox

P.S. Nom's post just reminded me of something I wanted to echo from PiG's original post:

There are so many un-tapped resources. University Facebook groups are one of the biggest ones. But Reddit/TL are severely underestimated. Over the ACL weekend, I posted a thread on Reddit and asked participants/fans/stream viewers to up-vote the thread. It only received ~30 upvotes over the course of the entire weekend, even though we had like 500 people in the stream at the time. This is the sort of stuff we need people actively doing. Don't just think to yourself, "oh, someone else will do it" because every number counts. When you have 50 people retweeting a stream or a bracket link, with several hundred upvoting a thread on Reddit/TL, we may not see the results immediately. But eventually we'll be in the face of the global community so frequently and consistently that we become mainstream content. The effort needs to come from within.

I've said this once or twice before too, but the guys who organise Sydney barcraft... the APL group or whatever. Someone (im not targeting this at dox specifically, just responding to his point) needs to ******* use these guys to promote shit...

They can get 500+ people to a pub in the middle of sydney for an sc2 event. That's half the viewer numbers of our most popular online tournaments, from one city.

On my home from the first day of ACL Sydney, I was stopped by 2 people cause I was wearing my TL shirt and they thought they'd missed a barcraft, and had never heard of this ACL thing I was telling them about.

So yeah, things can definitely be publicised more. I'd love to see the 1000 or so people attending barcrafts just across australia for gsl finals all tuning in to catch an ACL final.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	APL are bosses!
	Paroxysm:	more advertising! Huzzah!
	nirvAnA:	1,000 people in barcrafts around Australia for ACLs sound awesome
	Bloodmyst:	Makes sense though, aussie love their beer. ACL, what ACL? :P

[nGenLight]

I love the discussion here, and I'm sure with the fine brains and fiery passion of people like Jared, Chadman, Benji, Nirvana n co, the possibility of future growth for SEA is unlimited.

I dream of the day we actually have fans that ogle over Mafia more than some relatively known NA player who probably couldn't keep their pants up to Ninja.

Quick Comments

x5_dot:

re-read my post and that was rude. i actually meant you weren't too bad but sometimes were close

[PiG]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

How can you help grow starcraft?

You don't have to do shit all. Just enjoy the game at your own leisure. No body is forcing you to 'watch a stream or you kill esports'. Content shouldn't be shoved down your throats. We should strive to make better more entertaining content ourselves, this way you'll be enticed to watch it because you want to. not because we're telling you to.

Like it or not esports production is competitive and quite saturated. If we want our events to be seen as sustainable by sponsors and organisers (many of whom have dipped into their own pockets to help host such great events) then we need more viewers and bigger turnouts. My dream is to have more sociable events like MLG and Dreamhack. Sure they'll be on a smaller scale but what I saw at ACL melbourne was a glimpse of a culture I want to see continue and not just disappear one day because not enough people show up to the event and the organiser can't afford to keep leaking cash.

I'm not saying "Hey get your ass over here and HELP OUT you lazy bastards!"

I'm pointing out a few simple things we can do to get more people down to our events. It's not forcing the events upon them. It's pulling the events out from under the rug and actually letting people see that it exists. When people find out about and experience ACL for the first time they are usually left with such a great experience that I want this to spread and expand so more of those sc2 nerds who don't know these events are on are enriched and given a chance to join in something I love.

In the OP i strongly disagreed with what was a somewhat negative and pragmatic view of the SEA scene by Boss. Whilst his business assessment of the situation may have been starkly true, as a culture and a Hobby-sport SC2 is growing phenomenally! Nonetheless there are ALWAYS deficiencies in how things are run. How they are advertised. And how we behave both as exemplars of the community and just as potential friends to new players and fans.

I'm not saying we need to become robots and be super manner or spend all day and all night tweeting or whatever. But shit if we aren't posting in some key groups that are out of touch with sc2sea, nor keeping the TL threads for our events on the frontpage for more then 5 minutes... then it will be a sad sight.

I see You sit there for 12+ hours a day at ACL observing, doing intros and working that stream Infeza. Maynarde, Dox, JB, Vanz and all the rest of the ACL crew work just as hard and invest so much time and money that I don't think suggesting people put in a few tweets or posts or bring a friend to share a great experience is a bad thing at all. I think it is just trying to share our passion and love of this game and allow the work of events like ACL to really find it's fruit.

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by PiG

I think it is just trying to share our passion and love of this game and allow the work of events like ACL to really find it's fruit.

I highlighted the word 'game' for a very specific reason. That's all this is. A GAME. A lot of people seem to think that the entire world is interested. The truth is. They aren't. This is in NO WAY an 'I think this thread is shit' post. I'm just saying. The whole world isn't interested.

This leads us to the main point of this post. Who is interested? There are a lot of sites that advertise Starcraft 2, is there not? If the SEA SC2 Scene is to grow, we need to stop beating around the bush and sticking with what we already have. We need to go to people that actually love what we love. SCreddit, teamliquid, twitch.tv, SC2SEA, Blizzard etc. I'm suggesting that before the next ACL (or INSERT OTHER BIG SEA TOURNAMENT HERE) an organiser should send an email to a few of these sites asking for an ad to be placed. Of course we need statistics as to why, but surely it is worth it? If a thread is made on Teamliquid, that is more exposure. Featured Streams on Teamliquid? I'm certain that an admin on TL will make a stream dedicated to SEA tournaments featured. If posts are made on screddit throughout the leadup to the tournament, with spoiler posts and whatnot, it creates hype. Its little things like this that we lack. The international scene knows little to nothing about us. They really have little interest in learning more. We have to prove to them that we are worth watching. We need to make the effort and go to them. Remember, they support what we do, just in a different place. No point trying to convert Aussies, the scene will barely grow.

We have so much going for us, yet people are so short-sighted, because we are from SEA, the small, 'weak' region. The top tier of this server showing their worth in international tournaments is also a brilliant start. But we have to stick it to the rest of the foreigners, and even the koreans, and beat them at their own game if we really want to get somewhere. Mafia making it into Korean GM was a great show for this. His viewers boosted by several hundred in a matter of hours, maybe less. How? SCreddit. Again, we need to advertise more, or find a way to advertise more on the pre-existing SC2 Networks.

ParO

If this didn't make much sense, I apologise. I'm incredibly tired at this stage. If anything requires confirmation, just ask.

Quick Comments

	inFeZa:	Yeah people won't be interested. but there may be people who are potentially interested but don't know about it.
	PiG:	the main people missing are the sc2 lovers already here in aus who don't know about our events. Not tryingtoConvertRugby

[iMSystem]

My question is, do we really NEED to grow our scene out there and get more exposure?

We are pretty content where we are at the moment, and over time we will grow with more viewers and players and more money being thrown into the scene, sure tweeting / posting and whatever to get more viewers is fine but IMO don't stress over it.

We have ACL doing amazing, we have Masters Cup every month, we have tournaments roll out every week and even international tournaments where our players play in.

We're not exploding out as fast as many would hope, but we are getting bigger and better, it just takes some time.

If we want quick exposure, we need our players to either head on over to MLG or something like that and take our some big names (take scarlet for example) even inviting players to our events (Koreans or anything). The only problem is that this endevour becomes expensive and only viable or even fee-sable to a few select people.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

Can't tell if troll.. >.>

[ACL inmaniac]

Originally Posted by iMSystem

My question is, do we really NEED to grow our scene out there and get more exposure?

Yes.

To say otherwise is extremely naive unless you don't want to see a self-supporting eSports scene here in Australia.

Quick Comments

	x5_dot:	100% agree. Key word = self-supporting
	iMSystem:	Agreed!

[Dox]

Originally Posted by iMSystem

My question is, do we really NEED to grow our scene out there and get more exposure?

To answer your question bluntly - yes we do.

ACL costs a lot of money to operate and I can guarantee you we don't make anywhere near enough from the entry fees to cover those costs. Without exposure and expansion, we won't attract additional stakeholders. We're fortunate to have organisations like Plantronics and Tt eSports throwing money into these events, because without them, the whole thing would not be possible. 90% of ACL is funded from the wallets of ACL management. I'm not at liberty to go into any further detail, but we are far from sustainable and we have a long way to go before ACL begins to pay for itself.

This is why most events try to piggyback off other events, to avoid paying venue hire fees.

[ACL inmaniac]

Originally Posted by Dox

To answer your question bluntly - yes we do.

ACL costs a lot of money to operate and I can guarantee you we don't make anywhere near enough from the entry fees to cover those costs. Without exposure and expansion, we won't attract additional stakeholders. We're fortunate to have organisations like Plantronics and Tt eSports throwing money into these events, because without them, the whole thing would not be possible. 90% of ACL is funded from the wallets of ACL management. I'm not at liberty to go into any further detail, but we are far from sustainable and we have a long way to go before ACL begins to pay for itself.

This is why most events try to piggyback off other events, to avoid paying venue hire fees.

This. A nicely elaborated version of my post haha, well said.

[ACL VaNzR]

Originally Posted by iMSystem

We have ACL doing amazing...

That's it. Framing this.

Pleased System --> My work is done.

Quick Comments

iMSystem:

Haha! My only criticism is we didn't meet in Melb T_T

[iMSystem]

Alright, I guess I am in the wrong assuming we are fine

Sorry.

I think perhaps initially try to think of ways to get our tournaments known to the Australian fans. As it has been stated before in the thread, there are plenty of Aussies (SEA even) who don't even know ACL exists. Plenty of people I meet on ladder don't even know Sc2sea is a site, it is really sad.

Should we focus on our own homeland before reaching out to the rest of the world ?

[inFeZa]

Another thing i'd like to add, maybe a bit contradictory to my last post but hey, you gotta question yourself even : )

For those in the lower leagues who came to ACL and didn't play because they knew they weren't going to go well.

Who cares!

It's double elim, so you'll play 4 games minimum.
The more or the lower leagues that enter, the further you'll get in the tournament too, Just give it a go! It's a **** load of fun even if you do get stomped by a GM, you will learn a lot. A LOT i promise. and you support organisations like ACL.
If you can afford the entry fee, definitely do it!

[Cyanide]

I just wanna ask if there's anybody who is able to add to this discussion that can give a non-ANZcentric viewpoint.

What about the rest of the countries in the SEA community?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'd like to see SEA grow as SEA, and not just as Australia repping SEA.

Just putting this thought out there.

Quick Comments

	Paroxysm:	This is definitely what needs to happen!
	nirvAnA:	i too wish TH/PH were more involved with us but they have their own scene :(

[TAEaeron]

The below post is going to be relatively biased towards ACL (mainly due to it been the most recent event)

I found the most recent ACL to be one of the better run tournaments in the AUS scene, I am sure that there are others that would be on par or perhaps better, they just might not have the exposure.

The way that the SC2 section of the ACL is run I cannot fault. Yes I am sure that there will be even more improvement for the next lot of them, but I know that when I watch ACL I am getting something that I would be expecting from the KR/NA/EU scene, this to me I think can only help grow the community. I found myself willing to help out in chat be in providing bracket or game updates when people asked. I wasn't the only one doing this, it made the whole stream chat much more pleasant. Of course there were the people who came to chat to troll, but most of the time they were banned/deleted within a reasonable amount of time.

I was tweeting a few things on the weekend and when I arrived at work on Monday much to my surprise I was asked what ACLPro was, it was good to be able to have a conversation like that with somebody I wasn't expecting as it gave me the pathway to speak about the experience.

I also think the fact that pro teams from other genres are starting to get involved in the SC2 scene is great, not only does it provide additional sponsorship to teams in the SC2 scene but it also opens up their scene to us; I talk about Carnage/MindFreak, etc in this because I would never have known about the Fifa/GoW3/Halo scene without these guys highlighting it through to us.

I think that we should not only be targeting people who play SC2 but gamers on a whole, by doing this we not only get exposure from those of us who enjoy SC2, but we can also bring in the friends/families to our scene.
I know that I don't mind watching Fifa,GoW3 or Halo as I figure it helps them and that can only be a good thing.

As for the sc2sea stuff that was said in the response and later comments, I personally have never noticed this and it may be my league/lack of posts that have stopped me from seeing this I am not sure. SC2sea is where I come for all my SC2 news and if I can't find it here TL or Reddit is where I will go; but this is always my first stop.

Anyway I am out, as that was a relatively long post.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	wonderful
	PiG:	nice thoughts, any idea of best way to reach other gamers?

[Sunset]

People of SEA, lend me your beers~

As someone who's loved SC2 since beta but only joined the SEA community 9-ish months ago, and am even now still very much an outsider, allow me to weigh in.

Re: Your petty bullshit:

Just drop it. OK?
You. Yes, you.
All of you.
Just drop it.
The scene is too small,
events need to support each other,
competition is healthy,
respect is fantastic.

Let go of your ego for the greater good - unicorns.
...Wait. Esports.
****.
Seriously.
You look unprofessional.
People with money don't want to deal with unprofessional.

Re: You wanting recognition/love/efame for what you do

You do it for the love.

I'm an outsider, I won't lie. A lot of that is my fault because I'm a stupid shy stupidhead.
But I do what I can for the scene. I have a Twitter which, for some fucked up reason, shitloads of esports people follow, and I pimp out SEA's events like its going out of fashion.

System (it was System, right?) actually called into Live On Three to ask how to grow SEA as a scene, and Sir Scoots mentioned me as someone who he gets information from about SEA, citing me as a reason he knows we have more than just Moonglade.

Did I ******* nerd out because I was mentioned on Live On Three? **** NO. I nerded out because it meant what I was doing, as small and ******* stupid as it is - ie: making 140 characters entertaining enough that people click the link - was working.

I care about the local scene so much and I couldn't give two shits whether you know about how I promote events. It's not about you. It's not about me. If you want fame, go on Australian Idol dressed as a chicken, adgaf.

If I could do what little insignificant shit I do, anonymously, I would do it.

None of it's about me - you all work so hard and you're so ******* talented as players/casters/tournament organisers/EVERYTHING, I feel like I could never possibly do enough to help.

I've been in and around esports in Australia to varying degrees for 10 years and I've seen too much fail because of stupid ego bullshit.

Drawing In The Viewers

So some of the most famous SC2 players around the world are not necessarily the "best". They're people that people enjoy watching, can relate to, or find entertaining in some other fashion.

The SEA scene is so underdeveloped that we don't even have those personalities yet - the InControls, the Grubbys, the Idras (tgun? srym8ily), the Huks. It's not about people who pull consistent tournament wins, it's about marketability and entertainment value.

Here's the catch though, right - from what I've seen and experienced, all top SEA players can be marketed. I think we're so lucky in that the top 20~ish players on SEA have such wonderful, diverse personalities. If international viewers had a chance to "meet" you, they'd always come back for more. I'm hoping (so hard) that WCS is what you guys need to be exposed to an international audience.

I have my own ideas on how to do this, and I'm going to call on every mate I have who has any influence to promote the shit out of SC2WCS Australia and beyond.

I've been ridiculed by people on this site, in the SEA community, for coming from being more focused on the NA scene. Yeah, well, **** ya. SEA is not big enough, in terms of relative SC2 playing/watching population, to be self-sufficient at the level we want to see without international recognition.

If you need ego trips or need to feel good about yourself or important
go do it somewhere else.
Hokay?
Work out where in your life is lacking dat feeling and fix it.
Don't use this as your ego trip.

Be here because you love it
and the success of it -
not YOU,
IT -
would be reward enough.

ps. it's late + wine.
pps. "Saddle Up" is not an alienating statement - I tweeted it with no context during ACL and a whole heap of people who have no idea what TSC is retweeted it. It's become bigger than itself. (Please don't say we can't say saddle up T_T)

Quick Comments

	TAEaeron:	nice post
	inFeZa:	I have to admit, that sirscoots story is pretty freakin boss!
	nirvAnA:	+1
	Dox:	hnnnnnnnng saddle up
	syfChadMann:	Saddle up yo..

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

They can get 500+ people to a pub in the middle of sydney for an sc2 event. That's half the viewer numbers of our most popular online tournaments, from one city.

Quick Comments

	Cyanide:	lol
	Sunset:	BAHAHAHAHAHAHA I spat out my water
	TAavanar:	LOL

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

don't really know what point you're making... so far I've not seen any marketing for WCS and not through the channels I was talking about.

EDIT: oh, and chadmann... I'm going to have to disagree and say that I think donations are not the way to growth. I think if it's possible to find a way to reach financial sustainability at the current time, then there is room for growth. As long as the scene remains in the state where it's just bleeding money out and relying on donations to keep itself propped up, there will be a lack of sponsor money walking in the door.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

oh my lord.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

don't really know what point you're making... so far I've not seen any marketing for WCS and not through the channels I was talking about.

EDIT: oh, and chadmann... I'm going to have to disagree and say that I think donations are not the way to growth. I think if it's possible to find a way to reach financial sustainability at the current time, then there is room for growth. As long as the scene remains in the state where it's just bleeding money out and relying on donations to keep itself propped up, there will be a lack of sponsor money walking in the door.

I...
eh...
Okay, if community funds and supports it - it will grow. Growth leads to exposure, exposure leads to marketing opportunities ... that means sponsorship. It's addressing the 'catch 22' situation currently in place where we have zero exposure.. and low competition.. boost competition, boost exposure, boost investment returns.

Marketing 101 big boy.
EDIT - actually I'm going to explain this a bit more.. just so I don't get silly responses..
If you want to grow something that has no ROI benefit.. it's hard to get external investment. So you have to prop it up and bleed funds into it to bolster it while it finds its feet. Fake self-sufficiency until the beast can support itself. make sense? okay.. good, now go support eSports how ever you can. ty

Anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of talented individuals in the community that can promote the Aus WCS effectively.. also, Blizzard is involved.. I'm sure they will do their part to bolster the event.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

I...
eh...
Okay, if community funds and supports it - it will grow. Growth leads to exposure, exposure leads to marketing opportunities ... that means sponsorship. It's addressing the 'catch 22' situation currently in place where we have zero exposure.. and low competition.. boost competition, boost exposure, boost investment returns.

Marketing 101 big boy.

Anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of talented individuals in the community that can promote the Aus WCS effectively.. also, Blizzard is involved.. I'm sure they will do their part to bolster the event.

I've studied enough business and economics to know that if I"m looking for an investment opportunity, I'd be looking for something which has a way of making money, not something running more spectacular events propped up by donations.

So you don't need to be too condescending. But that is also my own opinion, and I know I'm not alone in it.

And of course they can, I didn't say they couldn't.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

I've studied enough business and economics to know that if I"m looking for an investment opportunity, I'd be looking for something which has a way of making money, not something running more spectacular events propped up by donations.

So you don't need to be too condescending. But that is also my own opinion, and I know I'm not alone in it.

And of course they can, I didn't say they couldn't.

I have a degree in marketing dude..

ROI isn't all about dollars and cents. It's about exposure.. brand awareness, advertising, promotion... these activities see no direct ROI - but build brand awareness and product awareness - that leads to sales.

Quick Comments

	iMSystem:	+1 If only everyone else knew this...
	TAriiChard:	He didn't go to Mktg2020 =)
	inFeZa:	Any Exposure is Good Exposure.

[FXOBoSs]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

I...
eh...
Okay, if community funds and supports it - it will grow. Growth leads to exposure, exposure leads to marketing opportunities ... that means sponsorship. It's addressing the 'catch 22' situation currently in place where we have zero exposure.. and low competition.. boost competition, boost exposure, boost investment returns.

Marketing 101 big boy.
EDIT - actually I'm going to explain this a bit more.. just so I don't get silly responses..
If you want to grow something that has no ROI benefit.. it's hard to get external investment. So you have to prop it up and bleed funds into it to bolster it while it finds its feet. Fake self-sufficiency until the beast can support itself. make sense? okay.. good, now go support eSports how ever you can. ty

Anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of talented individuals in the community that can promote the Aus WCS effectively.. also, Blizzard is involved.. I'm sure they will do their part to bolster the event.

E-sports isn't so easy. There are numerous reasons why. Firstly, there is not enough general interest (viewership wise as a whole) to lure the sponsors that matter (non IT/gaming brands).

Next you have also calculate how long you are actually going to waste (better word than bleed) money to try to 'prop up' a saturated market of people wasting money.

Then you have to decide what kind of ROI you are actually looking for, whether its sales, cash, awareness.

99% of sponsors in e-sports are in it for sales. When sales dry up, they disappear. There is no self sustaining model in e-sports yet, because it relies purely on sponsorships. And because the market is so niche, unless a self sustaining model appears, it will die again (everyone is working on finding a self sustaining model).

The problem with the vision you have is not that you are wrong, but that SEA is so far behind in business development, most of the companies involved or willing to be involved in e-sports have already got their sales from AUS via other, bigger, brands.

The best way to change the trend would be to some how, make ACL 3x bigger on the same budget. Have people do active video media for ACL that is viral (reddit TL etc) and then bank on that.

Anyway, the problem with business in e-sports is that no one has been successful before. Whoever can become successful, will be the ones that live forever and can potentially monopolize.

re: sending my team members to mlg, this fits hand in hand with what I am saying. The only possible way for me to get any sign of a return is to have the people on my team go. Otherwise its just dead air and money, and most probably promoting other peoples sponsors. No one works for free, we all look to get something out of it, that includes self satisfaction.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

That's the way it works and too few people understand it

[ROOT`iaguz]

Another good idea for WCS is just to do what england did for theirs.

"oh shit our players are all bad.... SEND FOR TASTOSIS!"

25k viewers **** yeah

As regards sunset we all have our small roles. I am a player. I have to play and be entertaining and hopefully if I do that well enough it works. Ditto for all the players, all the casters and all the manager folk and all the other people. It's one thing to think about solutions to problems, but **** it. You have your roles. It's simple. Just do that and do it well.

Quick Comments

	inFeZa:	.......................................
	Paroxysm:	so true...
	Dox:	this guy keeps shit real (and interesting)
	Sunset:	Awh. Am I the tweeter? -_-
	nGenLight:	likewise the scholars need to theorycraft for solutions so we have better understanding of our roles
	AxSGRiM:	uk players aren't bad ==
	NOM:	^ But there not sexy like Aussie players :p

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

Another good idea for WCS is just to do what england did for theirs.

"oh shit our players are all bad.... SEND FOR TASTOSIS!"

25k viewers **** yeah

You know what... as much as this shits me it kinda is true. We are having internationals for WCS apparently, dont think it's tastosis, still should bring some viewers in if its a name worth knowing. Maybe wolf/khaldor as korea isn't too far.? Just have to wait and see.

Whoever it is, it will be a pleasure to meet and observe for them!

[bLaCkcAt]

Malaysian scene is dead? Owh man
I just started picking up sc2 (from BW)...

Quick Comments

	Sunset:	Don't listen to the big scary man. You can be our Blackcat <3
	inFeZa:	Nothing is stopping you from playing.

[syfChadMann]

I'm all for getting some of the scene's movers and shakers together and collaborating for some big dawg shizz... I know right.. I'm trying to be professional and I say "big dawg shizz" - idgaf.

Anyway, I agree with alot of the points being addressed, in short - we need to be professional, promote our sponsors, give ROI to investors and build the scene - its not going to happen overnight and alot of effort needs to be expended before it does. we can all do our part - spread awareness and fund events.. if you have some extra cash and love eSports - why not put on a tournament - or contact someone that can on your behalf?.. Perhaps nirvAnA could set up a donation section to donate to your favourite team to help them build up?.. but I see the next step for SEA is to build its competition and get out to MLG and GSL and make a name for ourselves. Lets do dis yo.

eSports
SEA SC2
the saddle club.

Quick Comments

VoxMSI.Rogue:

♥ tsc 4 lyfe

[NvRossi]

chucked a few tweets at Khaldor while he was doing a Q and A while streaming the Gigabyte and Nvidia tournament to 5k viewers and saw quite a few others tweeting regarding Aus etc...

He is aware of our scene and said we have alot of potential :P

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

:)

[cruxSpoon]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

Quote:
Originally Posted by |Erasmus|
I've studied enough business and economics to know that if I"m looking for an investment opportunity, I'd be looking for something which has a way of making money, not something running more spectacular events propped up by donations.

So you don't need to be too condescending. But that is also my own opinion, and I know I'm not alone in it.

And of course they can, I didn't say they couldn't.
I have a degree in marketing dude..

ROI isn't all about dollars and cents. It's about exposure.. brand awareness, advertising, promotion... these activities see no direct ROI - but build brand awareness and product awareness - that leads to sales.

You're both arguing semantics!!!

"that leads to sales" = ROI. That is the end game goal of investment no matter which way you look at it. For dick measuring purposes I am a Finance Major AND Bachelor of Law. So i've seen these words thrown around in a few contexts. To both your points however.

Donations whilst helpful, are not sustainable for a few reasons. For sustainability you need to have consistency. Donations are not consistent in both amount and when they come in. sc2sea has done a great job of keeping prize pools consistent for its tournaments by using the donations wisely. I can't help but feel if there was constant set amount being injected into sc2sea every month that we would see larger prize pools, attracting larger players. Now we see that as an investment. *NB - you may define these terms differently, but pls take away the substance not the terminology argument from this spiel.

Now why would anyone invest in sc2? Exposure, advertising? All the points have been hit above. As a team with sponsors you know what that means (Mr Chad ). In order for exposure those players have to do well, at foreign events. This is one way to gain sc2sea popularity.

The other is, as discussed, to gain popularity at home to attract foreigners to sea. The investments we see here are already taking place in such things as ACL and by Benji and Systems streams on tournaments such as xGTL and IEM Gamescom.

To summarise this summary!

1. Dont argue semantics where the content is same pls...this is how we start down the circlejerk trains.
2. Investment in players needs more exposure - do better at foreign events
3. Investment in tournaments at home needs more exposure - need to attract bigger names.
4. Mooses point still not dealt with, brought up earlier (system i think) - self sustainability, whcih invokes points 2,3 about getting returns on investments (see the running in circles?)

All i've done really is summarize and clarify the majority of whats been said before it gets into a big argument fueled by misunderstanding.

Quick Comments

	mGGDrGooSe:	c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker
	PiG:	<3
	Cyanide:	nicely put!
	AxSGRiM:	ezpz

[breadfan]

I'm really enjoying this thread now.

Dox/Sunset/Inmaniac pointed out something important re: spreading awareness.

I, as a lowly platinum player who hopes one day to be good at this game, but otherwise just really loves starcraft 2 and esports, can do a lot more than what I am doing. I've regularly tried to think of ways I can "help out" the scene - maybe I need to save some pennies and donate a prize pool to some tournament. Maybe I can use my various skills in some way to initiate some big thing. Maybe I need to volunteer to help with some of the behind the scenes stuff, like admining tournaments so existing tournament organisers can focus on other things.

More simple than any of those, upvoting reddit posts is something that I don't really do. I've never been a reddit user, and I only made an account to upvote a post about the ACL Gold Coast stream earlier in the year. But I recognise there are tons of active SC2 redditors, and me making a more focused drive to upvote ANYTHING to do with the SEA scene can make a big impact. So I will strive to do this simple yet overlooked task, starting today. And hey, maybe we can implement some forum feature where people can add links to reddit posts related to SEA, so that the people who aren't likely to spend the time searching through piles of posts in search can make a better habit of reading/upvoting the relevant ones. I don't know how this would work, but I'm sure there are a few ways it could be done well.

Another thing that has been sort of touched upon is that we do have friends in the "upper" SC2 community. People who actually participate in SEA events and I believe would actually love to see our scene succeed. People like Incontrol, who supports and casts charity events like the rumble in the bronze, and for that matter participates in things like the EG vs Eve showmatch. People like Khaldor who casted, I believe, the Dox Cup #2. Perhaps even Tastosis to an extent, when they declare they want to come to SEA events. This is more thinking out loud, but I'm sure this can be utilised in some way - maybe if we can create ways in which it is worthwhile to involve them more, we can get more exposure. Exposure may not be our only issue, but it is one of them.

Quick Comments

PiG:

reddit links on sc2sea good idea! Remember sharing FB and retweeting is just as important!

[VoxMSI.Rogue]

I think we should make an sea video, some form of parody featuring our top players and community members.

Like a kony 2012 inspired South East Asian SC2 appeal video.

SEA 2012.

Quick Comments

	iVnStinger:	^
	Paroxysm:	Seconded!

[PiG]

Originally Posted by IrisRogue

I think we should make an sea video, some form of parody featuring our top players and community members.

Like a kony 2012 inspired South East Asian SC2 appeal video.

SEA 2012.

Any sort of highlight video for our players/events/tournaments would be fantastic to be played at barcraft... been fantasising about this for a while now :P


@Paroxysm ahh yeah I get you man I thought you were going for the "lets put our tournaments on NA and EU time and invite them all to play to get viewers" which while valid shouldn't be something we do too often! But as a let's use those big sits like reddit/TL etc i couldn't agree more.

This isn't about us desperately holding signs in the streets. It's a mixture of passing on the word in ladder/bnetchat/clan communications and getting in the habit of hyping and discussing our tournaments consistently through all the correct avenues! I agree with you 100% Payoxy!

[Fenner]

Originally Posted by PiG

Any sort of highlight video for our players/events/tournaments would be fantastic to be played at barcraft... been fantasising about this for a while now :P

I might actually give this a shot since I have some downtime from sc2 right now!

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

do it do it do it!

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by PiG

As for viewer numbers I don't know what numbers you're looking at but since Benji unlocked how to use the TL featured stream function and the rest of SEA slowly learned from that, the views on SEA events have been steadily rising higher and higher. (Edit: This was based off anecdotal evidence aka. nothing, and benji informs me numbers have stagnated over the past year:

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

This is incorrect, on average our stream viewer numbers have not significantly increased in the last year or so.

The Masters Cup has certainly increased viewers. It does flucuate at times, but over the last 9 months or so we've been averaging 10-15k (600-1500 live), where in our first 9 months or so we would have been averaging 5-10k.

This is due to a lot of factors, mainly more awareness of SEA players, the casters, our scene, and event sponsorship.

However, lately there has been a lot of competition for viewers, especially from the multiple worldwide WCS events, but we perform reasonably even so.

Our international versions have also attracted some notable/recognised names, which is pleasing, especially when SEA players perform well against them.

I believe we aren't near our peak, and i have plans to grow the tournament more, and make it better for players and worldwide audiences, and as a result, build SEA esports and show off/support our talented local players.

Originally Posted by Dox

I was under the impression that events like Masters Cup have been rising in viewers over the last 12 months. We've seen some pretty staggering numbers sometimes! Part of me wonders if this is because we omit any shred of "SEA" identity from the title of the event. I tend to think most people avoid SEA branded events because (as far as they're concerned) we have nothing to offer them.

I can't speak for other competitions, but i want people to know they are watching SEA players when watching the Masters Cup.

The official title of the Masters Cup is SEA Masters Cup. As seen on our Wikipedia page, facebook, all event banners, threads, etc. Even our International versions are SEA Masters Cups.

Sometimes the event is called the Sc2sea Masters Cup. It is usually listed as such on the TL event calander.

Originally Posted by PiG

Any sort of highlight video for our players/events/tournaments would be fantastic to be played at barcraft... been fantasising about this for a while now :P

Here are a couple of good ones made by IcedTea, which we play during Masters Cups. (They are perhaps a little dated now - so many team changes!) I think these videos are a great idea, and an awesome opportunity to promote our region/events/players to the wider SC2 community.

You Tube

You Tube

You Tube

You Tube

I'd be more than happy to run more SEA promotional ads during events, if people want to create more.

ACL videos, Barcrafts, player/team highlight videos, SEA SC2 lans, etc. I'd happily promote.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	<3
	NOM:	MORE drunken deth video's!
	nirvAnA:	Loved the IcedTea vidoes all over again!
	DUCKVILLELOL:	If anyone was willing to make a more updated version of these I would be happy to run it randomly when I'm streaming

[Dox]

Originally Posted by Eddie

I can't speak for other competitions, but i want people to know they are watching SEA players when watching the Masters Cup.

The official title of the Masters Cup is SEA Masters Cup. As seen on our Wikipedia page, facebook, all event banners, threads, etc. Even our International versions are SEA Masters Cups.

Sometimes the event is called the Sc2sea Masters Cup. It is usually listed as such on the TL event calander.

Ah, I just meant the (short) name which appears in the TL Stream List, which is "Masters Cup." That's the only information people have when they click on it... or maybe I'm completely wrong, haha! Just going off memory.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Dox

Ah, I just meant the (short) name which appears in the TL Stream List, which is "Masters Cup." That's the only information people have when they click on it... or maybe I'm completely wrong, haha! Just going off memory.

You are correct, they require a shortened name for the live stream page, which like you suggested probably works in our favour, as isn't region specific. If people want to know more they either watch stream, click TL calendar link or wiki link.

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

the main people missing are the sc2 lovers already here in aus who don't know about our events. Not tryingtoConvertRugby

Jared, you commented this on my last post, but what I mean was that a lot of people don't know about sc2sea, but they do know about twitter, sc2 reddit, facebook etc. We need to use those forums to advertise as well as our own if we want to bring it to the world. We cant just all go on the street and hold signs. If only we could...

[nGenLight]

How I dream of the day us known SEA players actually get recognized at Barcrafts (without wearing our uniform). Often time I feel like our own fans ogle towards NA stars more so than their local heroes, it is a little sad. Exposure is key I guess, and as a Player I really don't want to think / don't know of what else I can do, but to "SHOW GOOD GAMES".

Quick Comments

	VoxMSI.Rogue:	♥
	PiG:	aw man yeah this would be sweet... after IEM I felt so proud when dozens of people introduced themseles to me! needthis!
	frequency:	as if all the girls dont swarm to the cute chinese boy already
	TACeeSerps:	I was fanboying over you at Arena Lan, didn't have the guts to say hi though. Does that count??

[Paroxysm]

Yes! Numerous times I have been talking to someone on the ladder, when I'm not raging at protoss ^^, and the chat will lean towards tournaments and whatnot. I mention sc2sea and can imagine a blank stare looking back at me. From there I link them to sc2sea, and say check it out, its a really good site. Whether or not they actually follow through with it is a totally different thing altogether.

But if we want to grow the SEA scene, 2 steps definitely need to be followed:

1. Advertising on the actual SEA Server to people who have no idea what sc2sea.
2. Advertising through all Starcraft 2 Forums - TL, SC2SEA, SCReddit, Twitter etc. etc.

That, in conjunction with hype videos (DOX? haha) on youtube that are linked to screddit and TL is a good way to begin advertising for our region. Even players streaming daily. I stream daily, and I get 15ish viewers on average. Half are from SEA, half are from the rest of the world. 90% of the people from the rest of the world ask, 'what is the SEA server?' in the chat channel.

As we all know, They don't want to come here for anything because we apparently have very little to offer. If we want to improve our region, we have to go to them. It's sad but true.

[nGenLight]

Just an idea, a model we can look up at - Taiwan SC2 Scene.

We could learn a lot from Taiwan, relatively small market like us, however they really got a nice system/exposure/e-sports culture going on there. & Their fans actually know, love, support their local heroes! But I guess that might be because everyone there wears glasses whereas here everyone is running around kicking a football or something.

HRU has like 53475348534 girl fans; Want to see the day where handsome guys like Rossi can get all the cats he can get, for being a SC2 Superstar, and proud of it, too.

Quick Comments

	x5_dot:	men of starcraft calendar?? ;)
	NOM:	^ Iv'e been dying to have this for awhile. :p
	cruxSpoon:	I wear glasses...**** you...or god bless you...your choice
	mGGDrGooSe:	I know we have enough women for a women of starcraft one as well (^_^)

[Cyanide]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

I mention sc2sea and can imagine a blank stare looking back at me. From there I link them to sc2sea, and say check it out, its a really good site. Whether or not they actually follow through with it is a totally different thing altogether.

Maybe we can get our SEA players to start every game with
"For more replays, visit SC2SEA.COM" lol...

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Pretty sure that gets automatically added to files when uploaded to that replay site. Players aren't advertising it.
	mGGDrGooSe:	Hey I was gonna suggest that. Start everygame with "glhf, for more local sc2 action visit sc2sea.com" just ctrl+c it in

[Paroxysm]

We should try it for a day or two Cyanide ahaha

Quick Comments

mGGDrGooSe:

comment above got cut off. You can use ctrl+v to say things in game.

[Delraich]

There is a lot of different points raised in this thread. I think a useful starting point would be taking stock of a) where are we now b) where do we want to be c) defining each of the gaps between a and b, and d) then proposing how to actually get to b)

Reading these posts, alot of the suggestions are mostly around b) and d). I haven't specifically tallied and classified the themes of each post, but the main points seem to be around a number of relatively ambicious aims:
Increase the profile of SEA starcraft 2
Have a SEA SC2 hero(s)
Win significant tournaments
Need more money/ get more sponserships
Increase overall professionalism of community and figure heads
Improve opportunities/ support/ training system for players to be able to compete at the very top levels

I am sure that a fair few of the above are linked, but I would think that if doing all of the above things is not possible in one go, maybe a few things can be started that may lead to the others being more feasable. For example, from what I read, it sounds like tGun and Moonglades opportunities in Korea are often cited in a very positive way. With this in mind, if Pig (or someone else) was supported again in this way, this could be a great start in this direction. This person would be a representative of the region and if he/ she ended up winning major stuff and doing speeches and whatnot, this would send a very professional image for SEA that is tied to success (assuming they are also delivering the goods by winning stuff). Then the community should benefit by its association with this person. This one thing could be a significant and relatively feasabile start in this direction.

[syfChadMann]

Exactly why I'm suggesting proping up the production of ACL and other events with 'wasted' money. You know it needs to get bigger, a great step would be to have international players enticed by the prize pool.. Bringing big names to play, and even cast the event will aid in SEA's exposure.

The issue about self sustainability isn't easy to reach as fans aren't willing to pay for content, and there is little to no merchandise to provide an income stream.. If everyone paid $5 to physically enter ACL the bought a replica team shirt from a stand inside, you might get sustainability.. Like sport, what can we learn from sporting teams about this!?..

Imagine the day there is a team league.. And we fly with our team colours on to GAMECOM.Nv stadium to watch iM v Nv... Or tune in to the action on mainstream television.. That would be amazing. I think it's a very long way off.. But professionalism and devotion is the first step. Then spread the passion!!..

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Be interesting to see what people feel about paying an entry fee. I'd be happy to pay $5 as suggested...

[FXOBoSs]

The only thing I can do to prop up ACL is to offer our casting and bring our own audience to the event. That is the FXOpen name with the audience thats attached to it.

But again, its a business deal technically.

Both parties gain from the exposure.. But its entirely up to ACL whether they want that to happen.

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by FXOBoSs

The only thing I can do to prop up ACL is to offer our casting and bring our own audience to the event. That is the FXOpen name with the audience thats attached to it.

But again, its a business deal technically.

Both parties gain from the exposure.. But its entirely up to ACL whether they want that to happen.

This post is completely up in the clouds ~ take it with a grain of salt.

Do it then!~ I'm sure just an offer from FXO to ACL wouldn't hurt, to see what potential growth it could bring to the league, even a one off event with a boosted prize pool big enough to get internationals to fly down (I'm sure that some teams with the cash would love to visit australia, and think it may be an easy win for them).

As you said, both parties would gain from exposure, and it's exposure everyone wants.

With ACL's amazing production value (seriously i think that the stream and everything looks mint) could gain ACL some followers to those who have never really heard of it, in the long run.
I for one know that everyone i've talked to that watched an ACL event has loved it and said that it's entertaining.

The name just isn't out there on an international level just yet. and maybe it's the boost that it needs. I'd like to see how this pans out.

[FXOBoSs]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

This post is completely up in the clouds ~ take it with a grain of salt.

Do it then!~ I'm sure just an offer from FXO to ACL wouldn't hurt, to see what potential growth it could bring to the league, even a one off event with a boosted prize pool big enough to get internationals to fly down (I'm sure that some teams with the cash would love to visit australia, and think it may be an easy win for them).

As you said, both parties would gain from exposure, and it's exposure everyone wants.

With ACL's amazing production value (seriously i think that the stream and everything looks mint) could gain ACL some followers to those who have never really heard of it, in the long run.
I for one know that everyone i've talked to that watched an ACL event has loved it and said that it's entertaining.

The name just isn't out there on an international level just yet. and maybe it's the boost that it needs. I'd like to see how this pans out.

Its entirely up to them. I am not offering them money, just the casting services (which cost me money).

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by FXOBoSs

Its entirely up to them. I am not offering them money, just the casting services (which cost me money).

I think you'd get more out of it using that money to boost the prize pool and advertise that way and also help out ACL or you could send a player down to compete in the tournament, essentially not giving ACL anything except for the viewers who would tune in to watch that player if you announce he's coming down to play. (if he's allowed)

[FXOBoSs]

Originally Posted by inFeZa

I think you'd get more out of it using that money to boost the prize pool and advertise that way and also help out ACL or you could send a player down to compete in the tournament, essentially not giving ACL anything except for the viewers who would tune in to watch that player if you announce he's coming down to play. (if he's allowed)

I would get pretty much nothing out of giving money away. I'd have to become the major sponsor for it to matter which is an investment I, and my company would not be prepared to make.

[Dox]

Originally Posted by FXOBoSs

Its entirely up to them. I am not offering them money, just the casting services (which cost me money).

Casting services isn't really an area we're lacking in though. To be honest, one of the most valuable things you could do would be to spread the word. And that's free!

Quick Comments

x5_dot:

yay spread the wordd!

[cruxSpoon]

Originally Posted by Dox

Casting services isn't really an area we're lacking in though. To be honest, one of the most valuable things you could do would be to spread the word. And that's free!

Our casters are brilliant, however, I feel that SEA could still benefit from an offer that BoSs is proposing.

Bringing Wolf over would bring viewers who follow wolf, which brings exposure, which is our endgame goal. Its not about capability, cause our casters are extremely capable, its about exposure.

Having said that, I doubt Wolf (or someone equally e-famous) would want to come over considering their already busy schedule.

EDIT: I did not realise this dox, apologies. Still point still stands, not as strong though :P

Quick Comments

Dox:

Wolf departed FXO a very, very long time ago

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by cruxSpoon

Our casters are brilliant, however, I feel that SEA could still benefit from an offer that BoSs is proposing.

Bringing Wolf over would bring viewers who follow wolf, which brings exposure, which is our endgame goal. Its not about capability, cause our casters are extremely capable, its about exposure.

Having said that, I doubt Wolf (or someone equally e-famous) would want to come over considering their already busy schedule.

havn't people like tasteless and artosis said they want to visit nz/aus? might as well give it a go. I'll read up this thread tomorrow and give my 2 cents. love these discussions. also love the fact FXOBoss is taking the time out to discuss this with us .

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Don't really wanna think how much it would cost to have Tastosis over O_o

[Unstable]

Originally Posted by cruxSpoon

Our casters are brilliant, however, I feel that SEA could still benefit from an offer that BoSs is proposing.

Bringing Wolf over would bring viewers who follow wolf, which brings exposure, which is our endgame goal. Its not about capability, cause our casters are extremely capable, its about exposure.

Having said that, I doubt Wolf (or someone equally e-famous) would want to come over considering their already busy schedule.

I had this discussion with wolf less than a week ago, it is not the casters themselves that bring in viewers, they are the ones who make viewers stay. Example being our last invitational, the difference in viewers between wolf casting with me me casting with raelcun casting with me was literally 0.

There are really 4 levels of casters

- Terrible ones people complain and tune out becaues of
- ones people dont like but wont complain and will mute/tune out
- good ones that make people stay and ppl like but wont go out of their way to praise them
- casters like nick and dan who ppl rave about

It is about the brand recognition, when people tune into fxopen streams they know that there will be casters of the top two tier's at least because that is what my standards have been since we started so that is what people expect. Along with the production value that we bring as well.

When it comes to casters themselves, the only casters who "bring in" viewers are nick and dan, they have said they want to AU but their price would simply be too high and they are far too busy at the moment, I will run it by them though.

Originally Posted by inFeZa

You're prepared to send casters, so Send a player instead! You'll get the exposure from his results. If you tweet or something that the player is playing in this tournament, more people will watch.

Offering streaming/casting services doesn't have to be onsite. Take for example our Malaysian Lan a few months ago, casters were offsite with me onsite to handle camera positions/interviews.Low cost high payoff

Originally Posted by Dox

"Hey ACL are running a big event back in my home country, check out the grand finals now! <Stream Link>". I mean, we* do it for FXO events, but it's a one way street.

I mean, this entire discussion is about growth and awareness, yet there's no co-operation. Everyone wants to do their own thing and keep their exposure in their own corner of the room. I can understand this when you've got events overlapping, but as a whole it'd be nice to see more collaboration.

Ok, i'll go out on a limb here and offer this co-operation between FXOpen and ACL and i'll leave the ball in your court

I'll offer FXOpen services/experience in the form of:

- our media exposure for ACL events
- Our stream/casters during the event as well to bring in additional viewers from our viewerbase
- I will consult with your production guys as the production is good now but can be much better, camera positions, bitrates/transitions etc
- our tournament admin help to reduce downtime (there was 0 downtime during our malaysian LAN)

Once again it's up to you, this is the scenario myself and boss thought up that we would help out as much as we could.

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Sounds like a good offer to me

[ACL VaNzR]

Originally Posted by Unstable

Ok, i'll go out on a limb here and offer this co-operation between FXOpen and ACL and i'll leave the ball in your court

I'll offer FXOpen services/experience in the form of:

- our media exposure for ACL events
- Our stream/casters during the event as well to bring in additional viewers from our viewerbase
- I will consult with your production guys as the production is good now but can be much better, camera positions, bitrates/transitions etc
- our tournament admin help to reduce downtime (there was 0 downtime during our malaysian LAN)

Once again it's up to you, this is the scenario myself and boss thought up that we would help out as much as we could.

If you feel the necessity to help us, feel free to contact me privately.

[Unstable]

double post fml

Quick Comments

	cruxSpoon:	Post so good had to post it twice :D
	NOM:	duuble pasta

[ROOT`iaguz]

It would also help if we could find a weekend where absolutely nothing else was going on!

Sadly this is difficult.

Also, as a player I think I'm happier without Leenock coming down to acl. I thought the idea was to try and prevent all zerg top 8's!

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:	but that'
	inFeZa:	there's pther fxo players ahhaa

[Kablamo]

These are just my personal opinions that I have witnessed first hand.

I definitely feel like there is that "old boys club" to the SC2SEA scene, but I feel like it is a bit more than that. The impression I have gotten is that the vast majority of community members here think of themselves as FAR more important than they really are, to put things bluntly. I've noticed that unless something is going to directly benefit a person they see helping someone else as a waste of their time, despite how much everyone proclaims to want to help the "scene grow", it's more along the lines of helping the "scene grow when it benefits me".

I've wanted to lend my talents to helping this scene out for along time, unfortunately at every step people from the community have always done something rude or straight up dick-ish that has made me want to do anything BUT help the community.

The video I released last week was originally going to be showcasing the SEA scene, in particular the Australian scene, Because of many reasons the video changed and became what it was released as... luckily I think it turned out for the better, but that's just me.
EDIT: The video mentioned can be found at: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=5244

Obviously I don't mean everyone in the community is like this, but unfortunately in my experience the vast majority of people have been. Which really does suck. If it has happened to me in my attempts to create content for people I'm willing to bet it's happened to other more important people as well. If we want this community to grow into something truly amazing, something self sustaining, and something we can all be proud of then the first step we must take is to have a major change in our collective attitudes.

P.S I'm still open for producing video content for this community, if anyone has any potential projects you'd like to discuss shoot me a PM!

(Hope this was coherent! I kinda just wrote it up all over the place!)

Quick Comments

	x5_dot:	do you have a link to that video?
	UHF:	I feel this way as well sometimes
	nirvAnA:	its unfortunate you had that expereince, but not all of us are like those you describe! :)
	cruxSpoon:	That video was awesome, i found it on reddit :D, remember, the biggest dick makes the most noise, but there aren't many

[syfChadMann]

I think alot of the collaboration and helping each other out goes on behind the scenes and not in the public domain.. I see alot of collaborations happening over Skype and not the forums. Something to keep in mind when thinking about this scene - is that we like to present things when its already sorted - so you might not see the amount someone may have spoken to Dox, Benji or Arnor or whomever about an event before launching it.. but once it is set up - I agree that it is the baby of its originator and they hold onto it tightly.

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by Kablamo

I've noticed that unless something is going to directly benefit a person they see helping someone else as a waste of their time, despite how much everyone proclaims to want to help the "scene grow", it's more along the lines of helping the "scene grow when it benefits me".

I've wanted to lend my talents to helping this scene out for along time, unfortunately at every step people from the community have always done something rude or straight up dick-ish that has made me want to do anything BUT help the community.

I just wanted to say that I haven't had that experience at all... I've found people in this community to be welcoming and friendly since I joined the forums and became involved in the scene.

Not saying that I'm oblivious to the various dramas that have gone on, and that stuff is definitely not helpful, but on a personal level I've had no bad experiences becoming a part of the community.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Yeah it really depends who you happen to randomly approach/talk to at first methinks

[inFeZa]

Eddie.... Ur such a boss omg

[MetroBNE]

Hello All,

I just thought i'd chime in with my opinion on this thread. This is technically my second post after being prompted to post on the introduce yourself thread but I wanted to post here primarily. I felt the need to post my reasons to join in that thread though the comments are more relevant to this thread so i've copied below those comments and added a few additional underneath.

"I was prompted to register for 2 reasons. After being a long time TL follower I stumbled acrose sc2sea a while back and have more recently started to read the forum, folllow the events and most recently watch streams - ACL Melbourne & xGTL.

What sparked my action to register was today reading the thread by Pig regarding this thoughts on FXOboss comments about the SEA scene and the debate that followed. One first time poster (Venture) gave an excellent summary of his experiences and i have to say mirror my own. After seeing there was a "PRACBUD" channel and my recent desire to start playing 1v1 i joined the room, introduced myself, asked if there was any willing takers for a practise partner only to be greeted with... politely put 'taints' for my choice of playing random, my league rank etc by some GM and what i've seen active sc2sea members.

I've enjoyed online games from my first RTS experiences with Age of Empires 2 to competitive CS at Brisbane LAN events. I loved the experience so much I even started working at my local LAN on weekends while at uni, help run events and just generally experience the great social side of the gaming community - something I wish I could say i've experience with SC2.

The second thing that prompted me to join was reading tonight a vroomvroomvroom topic on running/hosting a SC2 event which I thought was an amazing effort on his behalf and potential risk as his business that has no association or connection to esports. This prompted me to want to do something similar (and I i plan to PM him on his experiences after this) and not sit back when my position within a multinational franchise brand would allow me to perhaps not hold LAN events but with locations nationally offer perfect Barcraft venues.

I loved that involvement and community back from my CS days and my love of SC2 wants to experience it again. I might not be able to offer additional prize money, sponsorship or technical support but I want to do what I can to see the community & awariness of SC2 grow and with my business expertise and connections as an individual I want to do my part to see this"

So that leaves with me with where to start. I'm not sure who are the key people to talk to are, which community members are active and where they are located so if those who are i'd appreciate a PM/reply to post/email if you think the community could use something like this to help it grow.

Thanks, Met

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	yay this thread has unburrowed so many awesome members :)
	xGKingdelete:	♥

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by MetroBNE

Hello All,


What sparked my action to register was today reading the thread by Pig regarding this thoughts on FXOboss comments about the SEA scene and the debate that followed. One first time poster (Venture) gave an excellent summary of his experiences and i have to say mirror my own. After seeing there was a "PRACBUD" channel and my recent desire to start playing 1v1 i joined the room, introduced myself, asked if there was any willing takers for a practise partner only to be greeted with... politely put 'taints' for my choice of playing random, my league rank etc by some GM and what i've seen active sc2sea members.


Thanks, Met

Slight derail~

PRACBUD was where i started too, I was bronze without a clue until i saw Frogmite and Knight's post on the Bnet forums. There used to be a great community there and people would generally give u a game and good advice if you asked politely. However, theres always 1 or 2 prick who would try to make you feel bad. Ive encountered quite a few of those who are also active members of this community, but that didnt stop me from making GM on SEA and NA. Im logging in much these days but AFAIK its still a very nice channel if you are looking to improve!

[PiG]

Thnx for posting MetroBNE feel free to add me on skype jared.krensel and i can point you towards some people/contacts to speak that stuff over with!

Unfortunately I think chat ingame is largely unused to meet new people due to the poor interface and as a result you get a lot of the bored younger guys idling in them waiting to troll or insult newcomers. To my knowledge pracbud is generally filled with really nice people but like in any channel it's only the evenings you get a good number of people actually in the channel. That being said I just re-read what you said and yeah I'm not sure im understanding if the responses were as negative as I thought from your post as you did say they were "politely put taints" which is a very odd expression. Do you just mean basically a bunch of the dudes in chat started acting like cocky nerds saying "ugh don't play random you won't improve" "lol i won't prac with you im gm" etc etc. ?

This is why joining a clan is vital to increasing your ingame experience. It's just like joining a club in terms of giving you a connection to other players and an expected level of behaviour so you can chat, find practice partners and improve at the game in a fun environment. The chat channels just aren't as active or friendly as in other games due to poor design and no ingame clan support.

I'm glad your passion for gaming and sc2 hasn't been dampened though. If it had I would be very sad. That's why I think it's vital to keep the forum free of the trolling and personal insults that can't be moderated on bnet.

Glad you've decided to put in a helping hand at such an exciting time for us I'm really excited to have another talented and passionate person join the community!

Thanks again for jumping in head-first Met!

Quick Comments

x5_Potter:

I think he means he putting it politely to say taints.

[TAEaeron]

Originally Posted by MetroBNE

After seeing there was a "PRACBUD" channel

It's in my open channels and it's generally a good channel to be in as you can get practice games and such from it. I have meet some new people though simply playing practice games. There are heaps of people on here that will practice with you and most in-game ID's are in the title section of the posts they make and or the profile section.

Originally Posted by PiG

This is why joining a clan is vital to increasing your ingame experience. It's just like joining a club in terms of giving you a connection to other players and an expected level of behaviour so you can chat, find practice partners and improve at the game in a fun environment.

This also helps and if it is something that you want to do there are good sc2sea clans, that can be found in the top left of the page, they generally will post if they are recruiting but it never hurts to get to now the people in these clans, as you start to run into them on ladder.

Originally Posted by TAEaeron

PiG: nice thoughts, any idea of best way to reach other gamers?

No idea on this one I know it's not as easy as jumping on FB and/or Twitter. I know that most of my friends that play games don't specifically play SC2, but we can still chat about gaming in general. Maybe next barcraft (not sure if they have these in other gaming scenes) we could post on other forums or bring in other gaming circles via one means or another.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by TAEaeron

No idea on this one I know it's not as easy as jumping on FB and/or Twitter. I know that most of my friends that play games don't specifically play SC2, but we can still chat about gaming in general. Maybe next barcraft (not sure if they have these in other gaming scenes) we could post on other forums or bring in other gaming circles via one means or another.

We've talked a lot about promo vods at barcraft. I was thinking why don't we actually hand out leaflets with "WCS 10th August" and all the other info (do the same for ACL etc.) as many non sc2 gamers or casual sc2 gamers already are coming down to barcraft. It would potentially be not too difficult to find the details for IT, PC development and such societies, clubs and colleges at universities and private colleges and send the leaflets to them electronically and ask them politely to distribute it. For instance my housemate attends QuantM College studying Games Design and a lot of his friends are casual sc2 players and would probably be stoked to attend barcraft or a big event like WCS but as people who have no interest in partaking in the community they never hear about these events. Some regularly watch Day9 or MLG but that's about it. Perhaps distributing advertising to these colleges would be possible via email. It's a longshot but once this sort of communication is established it's bloody easy to continue it by just sending out email down established channels. Establishing this with university societies would be even easier, especially if they have public facebook pages.

Other ways to reach other gamers off the top of my head is just posts going up on big gaming websites. Getting players to win international events is the main way we can get that to happen as it suddenly becomes more newsworthy for gaming websites. That and personally contacting the editors and writers and interesting them in our scene.

The main thing is people having the balls to chase down niche leads which potentially can unlock avenues of communication to involve more and more players and fans. Even if most only get a few new people involved in the scene if people are trying then I think once in a while our networks will expand exponentially.

Perhaps events need to make some official posts for instance ACL saying "looking for marketing volunteers" and basically giving those who volunteer some suggestions such as those above and basically say, chase this down and try to get this flyer or this information out there! It would obviously require outgoing individuals but I think there's people in this community with the skills and attitude necessary just without these suggestions they don't realise they can help with this.

Also I believe ACL and whoever else needs to get a social media officer who's only job is basically to make sure every network is messaged and updated with scores and exciting results throughout the event to keep people updated and keep on advertising their product. To do this they need to not do it off the top of their head but slowly build on a list to make sure every network is bumped periodically. This would include posting results in threads across tl/reddit/sc2sea etc.


Oh btw just googled "teamliquid acl melbourne" and this was the only thread I found: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=351205 was there no thread being updated during the event?

Quick Comments

Fenner:

too smart, piglet

[UHF]

Originally Posted by PiG

Oh btw just googled "teamliquid acl melbourne" and this was the only thread I found: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=351205 was there no thread being updated during the event?

You are correct. I actually talked about this in my blog videos, but had to cut it out as i went WAY too long. Basically ACL (especially Melbourne) hasn't been presented in a manner that leads into hype very well. A couple of searches on Reddit and TL lead you with some pretty un-inspiring results (top result on Reddit is Red Bull Battlegrounds).

The TL thread on ACL Melbourne was created on Sunday the weekend was on and contains no information at all about the event, had zero replies and a total of 80 views. If they don't have time to do it themselves I'll gladly help out, but last time I offered help I got ignored and they never got back to me.

I'm not having a go at ACL, just pointing out an example of where we can improve!

[x5_dot]

I'm hoping to speak to Sydney Barcraft peeps about showing a WCS hype video there. Kablamo, who made this awesome video, has graciously agreed to work on it.

Having pamphlets to put up at barcrafts and even unis would also be a great idea. Just need the right person to get onto it (unless ACL/Dox already has one in the works).

Quick Comments

Fenner:

good shit

[Cordance]

Im thinking the larger lans should consider looking at creating a promo print out page. That anyone could ask to put in a gaming store/notice board. Possible with tear off strips at the bottom with entrance details. Similar to the classic notice board car sale page. Just a random thought to help get the word out about the community.

Quick Comments

x5_dot:

oooh tear off strips! good idea :)

[SLCNPezz]

This is a brilliant post, but I have to disagree on one thing.

SEA is not even close to NA in terms of average skill level, it took me one day and 20 games to get GM on SEA where-as on NA I haven't even gotten GM after 3 seasons of 800 games played a season...

I will however admit that Australia's "elite" are fearsome, I was so damn impressed at ACL, I knew you guys were good but heck I got pounded by some of you. Namely tgun, who impressed me beyond belief with his ling bling play in ZvP. I was also impressed by Mafia, Moonglade, TTpig etc... also lesser-known players like EveTechtron (he is super solid and will no doubt be an amazing player especially with his young age). But like I mentioned before, our ladder can't really be compared to NA's, the difference is just too big.

I really really want this community to grow after attending my first LAN and bearing witness to the great play at ACL, I feel the pros in this scene have so much to offer. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and will try to support the community to my upmost ability.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by pezzaperry

This is a brilliant post, but I have to disagree on one thing.

SEA is not even close to NA in terms of average skill level, it took me one day and 20 games to get GM on SEA where-as on NA I haven't even gotten GM after 3 seasons of 800 games played a season...

I will however admit that Australia's "elite" are fearsome, I was so damn impressed at ACL, I knew you guys were good but heck I got pounded by some of you. Namely tgun, who impressed me beyond belief with his ling bling play in ZvP. I was also impressed by Mafia, Moonglade, TTpig etc... also lesser-known players like EveTechtron (he is super solid and will no doubt be an amazing player especially with his young age). But like I mentioned before, our ladder can't really be compared to NA's, the difference is just too big.

I really really want this community to grow after attending my first LAN and bearing witness to the great play at ACL, I feel the pros in this scene have so much to offer. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and will try to support the community to my upmost ability.

I think most of our top players ladder almost entirely on other servers which is part of why SEA server is so much easier to get into GM. When I ladder SEA I get more of a spread of skill levels where if im playing at the wrong time I get masters players repeatedly and can still move up off that. It's a rather underpopulated ladder. But I log onto NA and often see names like Flaunt whom I never see active on SEA ladder hanging around in NA GM. It feels to me like there's probably hundreds and hundreds of players that span that skill level from high master through to gm on NA and yet reside in SEA somewhere.

I hope this is actually the case and not just the impression I get from finding their ladder really easy to deal with lately! You could be right though Pezza so if I'll keep in mind that there may be a big skill gap between our top top players and the rest of SEA. Thnx for sharing your view as a heavy NA ladder player.

Quick Comments

AxSGRiM:

+1

[iM yang]

Originally Posted by pezzaperry

This is a brilliant post, but I have to disagree on one thing.
SEA is not even close to NA in terms of average skill level, it took me one day and 20 games to get GM on SEA where-as on NA I haven't even gotten GM after 3 seasons of 800 games played a season...
I will however admit that Australia's "elite" are fearsome, I was so damn impressed at ACL, I knew you guys were good but heck I got pounded by some of you.

People aren't saying that low GMs on SEA are equal to NA players, they're saying that TOP SEA players like glade, mafia, targa, tgun, pig, rossi can compete with the top of NA.

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:	like yang
	Dox:	the top SEA players dont even play on SEA ladder

[MezjE]

Originally Posted by iM yang

People aren't saying that low GMs on SEA are equal to NA players, they're saying that TOP SEA players like glade, mafia, targa, tgun, pig, rossi can compete with the top of NA.

This.

Greater population = more pros
Smaller population = less pros

In general though the 'pro' level of skill remains consistent just the amount of people at the skill level varies, we see this in almost all sports Australia competes in. Also explains how you can be Silver SEA and Platinum NA as it works in reverse with lesser skilled players.

[Peleus]

In response to pezzaperry I would actually argue it's correct to say that there is very similar skill levels between NA / SEA ladders. The problem with directly comparing GM is this.

If SEA has 5000 active players across all leagues, GM being the top 200 represents the top 4% of players in SEA. If NA has say 45000 players across all leagues then GM represents the top 200 of those players, or in other words the top 0.4%.

Even if the skill level was identical across both ladders, you could be the top 1% on SEA (say top 50 GM) and not reach GM on NA because their top 1% are not in GM. Obviously the percentages are off because I'm picking the active player amount out of the air, but it's just to illustrate why you can't use GM as a direct comparison for skill.

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Yup was gonna say that

[iMSystem]

Looks like ACL need to hire someone to do PR? Oh you already have Takiah as PR? She needs some training...

Quick Comments

Dox:

big man

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by iMSystem

Looks like ACL need to hire someone to do PR? Oh you already have Takiah as PR? She needs some training...

^thats some good PR for IM right there, how was your gigabyte tournament PR? oh....you need some training too buddy.


not the right way to go about being constructive buddy

Quick Comments

iMSystem:

;)

[MezjE]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

^thats some good PR for IM right there, how was your gigabyte tournament PR? oh....you need some training too buddy.


not the right way to go about being constructive buddy

Agreed. Don't hate man, I had no clue what was happening with GESC and you didn't seem very friendly

Quick Comments

iMSystem:

If you were at the event, everyone there knew exactly what was going on, and I am very friendly :O

[iMSystem]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

^thats some good PR for IM right there, how was your gigabyte tournament PR? oh....you need some training too buddy.


not the right way to go about being constructive buddy

While I agree with this we had more problems to worry about, PR was the last thing on the list.

We smashed it for the LoL tournament though

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by iMSystem

While I agree with this we had more problems to worry about, PR was the last thing on the list.

We smashed it for the LoL tournament though

no offense but lately you're seeming to get a bit of a big head, try and keep it to a minimum.

Quick Comments

iMSystem:

Thanks for pointing it out, I'm sorry to all who is effected and I'll watch what I say

[Dox]

That was actually my fault. I was planning on creating the thread on Friday night after I landed in Melbourne. But then my flight was cancelled, my replacement flight was delayed and it was 2:30AM before I arrived at the hotel.

I created Team Liquid threads for Sydney & Gold Coast, this one I missed though.

RE: inFeZa rep comment - usually they are. See Sydney/Gold Coast threads. The whole Melbourne season was a nightmare for me because I was stuck in Perth from the moment Sydney wrapped up, and attending events every weekend for 2 months straight, so I never had a chance to catch my breath.

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

Yeah bit unfortunate :( I think maybe should be made a week or so before instead of a day?

[iMSystem]

I'm sorry for sounding like I'm on a high horse, I'll tone it down a bit then I guess.

All I am getting at is that ACL gets someone under the PR directly, and other people have to do stuff.

Take it as you will, I'll leave it at that.

[x5_dot]

The events themselves were great, I went to both ACL and GESC. GESC did have stream issues even though their internet was super. ACL had internet issues which eventually cleared up somewhat.

Both need PR help.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

The only person in SEA who doesn't need PR help is you, such great photos <3

[Dox]

Originally Posted by dot89

The events themselves were great, I went to both ACL and GESC. GESC did have stream issues even though their internet was super. ACL had internet issues which eventually cleared up somewhat.

Both need PR help.

Indeed! Now that I have help on board, I'm gonna be focusing a lot of my attention towards this sort of stuff. This is one of my biggest goals for the new site I'm working on. My attempts at spreading event awareness via my Facebook page wasn't as successful as I'd hoped, because it comes up in your feed once, and is forgotten again a few days later.

EDIT: On an unrelated note - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=347064 - this is what i'm aiming to prevent >_<

Quick Comments

x5_dot:

oooh sounds exciting! looking forward to seeing it :)

[iMSystem]

Dammit Rossi, making me feel bad.

I want to publicly apologize to everyone who I may have BM'd, been aggressive towards or said harsh things to.

I don't want to gain a reputation as being a bad guy, or the guy everyone hates. I am here to help more than anything and wouldn't want to delay the growth or hurt anything or anyone at all. I don't want to look like a big man, who is better than everyone else. As far as I am concerned I am just another person on the forums.

As for my excuse, there is none. I stepped over the line with the post I made in regards to ACL's PR employee and I can't undo what I posted. (Technically I can delete it, but that's not the point.) I agree that I could have commented on the matter at hand more politely and not as brutally as I had.

I'll be grateful if you can accept my apology, if you cannot I hope in the future I can change your mind and make you think otherwise of me.

[NvRossi]

Haha, sorry I'm at the movies now but ill just say its an observation I've noted lately and I believe others would hate my sentiment. It's very easy to get a big head especially in this sort of environment. I'm an honest person and I think it's good to nip things like this in the bud early ! Don't think a public apology was necessary but all is well! Youre a good bloke let's keep on keeping on

[Bloodmyst]

OK, so this is what I have taken from this thread on a personal level.

I play SC2. Although I main NA ladder, I still feel being located in the SEA region (occasionally laddering SEA) makes me feel as though I should be contributing in one way or another. We are a community and we will not move forward until people such as myself, start contributing no matter how small it is.

Considering I work a full time job, have a g/f (also a job!), and with the spare time I have to actually play the game. This leaves me with little time to do something great for the community.... Dox comes to mind here

So there are two players I favour in the SEA region. Rossi and Iaguz, I'm looking at you! From now on, ima going to the realm of reddit to let everyone know what the **** is up! Latest results, wishing good lucks with support etc.

TLDR; Like myself, those who do not really have much time to really contribute greatly to the SEA scene. Pick a favourite SEA player and promote them on reddit! Only take 5 minutes!

P.S - I'm expecting to get a few "who is this player?" replys... but give it time Keyboard Warrior at your service!!!!!!! :P

Quick Comments

	Dox:	Brilliant
	justice:	This is a really good idea, Especially for people who don't have much free time but want to support! :)

[Shinkz]

SC2 has the biggest share of the eSports Pie (mmm pie...) in Australia, the most funding out of all the games. The coverage and shear quantity of events is massive and the current strength of the scene a tribute to those that have worked so hard over the last few years.

From my perspective, I feel the events that we have already have great production, great skill level and good enough prizes. I think it's the promotion that's the hardest and most undervalued point when it comes to the overall exposure from an event. Like dox was saying in his post above, that he was too busy to post about the other events, it shouldn't be all on one guy to post the event details.

Recently I have been pushing out Australian competitive gaming content through global esports media sites such as GosuGamers and ESFI World. With this I am hoping that a greater awareness of the Australian scene on a global scale. I think that this will in turn help the move for more people/company's/sponsors to be aware of our strength so that we can get much more value from each of our events.

Since last year there has been so much improvement in the scene, across Australian eSports and it's really exciting just to be involved in and follow it. - Can't wait till next year

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

yeah go you! :)

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by Dox

RE: inFeZa rep comment - usually they are. See Sydney/Gold Coast threads. The whole Melbourne season was a nightmare for me because I was stuck in Perth from the moment Sydney wrapped up, and attending events every weekend for 2 months straight, so I never had a chance to catch my breath

You shoulda got me to post it or something I just lack the skills to make it look pretty :/ haha

[SmirkToT]

read a bit of pig's post and a lot more of boss's one but not full.


-the next texts may or may not be related-

the scene is quite similar to china's one.
China got around 10 players can compete with average Korean pro-gamers.
Xigua last year had an amazing run in WCG as a runner-up.

+ [even though] +

He never met a korean until the final. And I wished MKP could make it first place in group to advance but he toyed the game with darkforce after he was sure he could advance, in the other case, i believe Xigua was done after advancing out of group.

But we never saw they in MLG/IEM/DreamHack/many tourneys. (Except IEM Guangzhou last year, SEA players and Chineses all placed 3rd or 4th, iaguz placed 4th i remembered)
Travel expense is expensive and they don't have the confidence against the tops among the highs.
Then the final number of chances you can see them can be less than 5.
These tournaments are WCG/IEM (if host somewhere in china)/ WCS(aka Blizzcon or WWI)/FXOIS.

And there was IPL5 qualifier for china too(Xigua got the spot), not too sure about ANZ regions.

In comparison, there are not many tourneys for Australians to travel out too


About practice, there is no 4th race outside Korea, so usually korean players are better because of practice. Many foreign teams have sent players over Kr to train. (Liquid, Mouz, EG, fnatic, etc)

All among all, skill (including luck, controls, mindsets but not limited to) is what you can make as a player.

Edit:There is not much you can do except practice hard but Korean got teamhouse that help a lot as they can share strategies, privately practice and research together. But i guess as the cake is still small in SEA, players probably are not willing to.

[Sent1nel]

That System guy! After speaking with him on many occasions I think what you're seeing is passion for the game and the community more than anything else.

At the GESC we had some enjoyable network rules to contend with that unfortunately didn't rear their ugly heads during stream tests - we did however win the war! From a participant perspective we didn't have any problems at all - the Internet was great, no games were held back, the Red Bull was flowing and the Pizza fed the masses.

I only managed to stop by ACL briefly but it looked very cool - as far as the network problems on the first day, that's par for the course in Australia where a microscopic monkey on a scooter is used to transmit packets between data centres.

On topic, Australian eSports is a far more complex beast than posting on a few forums and hammering social media. For me the major concern are the westernised models being applied to the Australian eSports scene by some admins/ladders/organisers. We simply aren't big enough to accommodate these models and working to tie assets to a single entity is only serving to stifle the growth of the community.