SC2SEA.com - Starcraft 2 SEA eSports Community Site

**nirvAnA** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 1:34 AM

What happened?

It was found that a well known top-tier player on the SEA server called "AsGChoBo" was actually a fabricated identity based on Korean "Semi-Pro" LoFseohyeon / vVvseohyeon who played under that account in nearly all his ladder games and tournaments which culminated in him winning one of the biggest SEA prize money tournaments, the "Masters Cup".

He carried on this identity deceiving site admins, his own clan, his own girlfriend and everyone in SEA for at least the last 6 months. Suspicions arose when the lesser rated chobo, surprisingly managed to beat some of the very best SEA players in succession, namely TargA, Ender, yang and Mafia with a total score of 9-1, winning the $300+ Masters Cup Tournament on the 3rd of June last Sunday.

Timeline

Day 1-3 - Led by game analysis by Rossi, Mafia and TargA - ChoBo was initially accused of map hacking. After many days of heated discussion with nearly 400 posts, the evidence proved inconclusive and if anything showed that he did not hack in many games.
Day 3 - The summary of all these posts can be found here, written up by crAzerk.
Day 2-3 - An anonymous tip of a possible smurfing theory is brought up to nirvAnA in a private message. He decides to investigate this and informs Rossi, Mafia, Revenant of the possibility of it as he had suspected something strange in the past too. nirvAnA does a preliminary "smurf test" on skype/bnet with Rossi observing, but somehow ChoBo/Hyeon managed to deceive them both. It was again Hyeon playing as chobo and unaware of that they got tricked into giving up the smurfing idea.
Day 3-4 The anonymous tipper also provides an old archived video, which shows chobo using different hotkeys from the replays which immediately peeks Rossi and Mafia's interest.
Day 4 Rossi looks through Chobo's stream list and notices Chobo had favourited a low profile Korean player, seohyeon. Based on a hunch, he takes a look at an old replay of him vs seohyeon, he immediately realizes hyeon uses the same unique hotkey setup (from brood war) as "asgchobo" in the master cup games, and makes this near conclusive post.
Day 4 - Rossi contacts hyeon on battle.net to get a confession and 100% undeniable proof that hyeon has played for chobo
Day 4 - Chobo makes his confession
Day 4 - Hyeon makes his confession

The undeniable evidence

Obtained by Rossi on the Korean server.

+ [In Chat Form] +

+ [In Image form] +

Statement from AsGChoBo and Seohyeon

Seohyeon's statement. (Link)

+ Show +

Chobos confession (link)

+ Show +

Aftermath

There was huge tension between people who wanted a fair trial and his accusers who were too hasty in their judgments. PiG makes an excellent post summing it here up where he notes accusers raged/bullied/abused the neutral guys who were just trying to be 100% thorough. This attitude has popped up several times on sc2sea and is very worrying, there were people PMing iaguz and thanking him for speaking out as they were afraid to post because of the backlash they saw for the people who did.

Its important to note ultimately the hacking accusations were dead wrong, Chobo was not hacking but it was a Korean pro playing on the account and if not for them, chobo would have been condemned a hacker forever and the real truth would never have been found. Imagine how dangerous that would have been? I also hope people hold no blame to any clan or team after this on both sides of the fence, as you can see everyone wanted the same thing in the end - for the cheater to be caught and for justice to be done. AsG is a fantastic clan who of course were deceived by chobo, just like everyone else here was. In the end, it was fabulous to see the whole community working together in unison to catch him.

I also feel that certain key people should be awarded for their efforts in this case with a custom achievement. These would be posters such as Rossi, tgun, Mafia, iaguz, UHF among others. All of whom spent a lot of time and effort that ultimately brought chobo to justice. TheGentleman, I am looking at you for this logo

And as Maynarde said +1 to SC2SEA

Punishment

Obviously we can't cart people off to jail but we take these matters extremely serious and we will do what we can to show that. The following decision was decided as a whole by our SEAL group of admins, which also includes close to all the mods on the site.

It goes without saying chobo will not receive any of the Master Cup prize winnings and he has been immediately removed from his coaching position on the site.
Their case will be made known to starcraft communities around the world, publicly shaming them. Their team managers will/have being informed as will the admins of major tournaments. This is the biggest punishment in my opinion, and something both players will never be able to recover fully from. This is probably enough to effectively end their playing career, which in SeoHyeun' case might seem really harsh if he was indeed fully aware of what he was doing.
The both of them will be banned from all online tournaments in SEA up for a period of 1 year for the deception and smurfing caused.
Dox highlights a good concept in a post: "I reckon with all maphackers/smurfs/cheaters of any capacity, banning them from online tournaments is more than sufficient. I'd never ban them from a LAN event where they can irrefutably prove their skills." I agree with this idea, but only after a minimum time frame and I guess the LAN organisers will decide that themselves if the situation pops up.

The last few days have been hectic as hell, thank you to the detectives mainly Rossi who solved the case and the many others who spent countless hours analyzing replays. Also to tgun, UHF, nemo and others and the AsG team who fought for a fair trial which lead to uncovering the real truth. I'm glad all this is finally over. Case closed!

Quick Comments

	SungInSPR:
	Peleus:	Satisfied with the punishment, thanks to all the work from everyone
	FvRphoneheha:
	TheGentleman:	This is fair and reasonable imho. +1 to SC2SEA
	Synizta:
	Nemo:	Don't forget iaguz and you for the achievment !
	Xenomorph:
	Maynarde:
	Baldie:
	Champi:
	Pox:
	Sent1nel:	Chobo will be banned from all Online and LAN events I have any involvement with for at least 1 year.
	FvRelimzkE:	Suitable punishment. Hope to see you in a year Chobo, get good yourself this time ;)
	DM.MCZ.Polaris:
	Reere:

Strafe · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:03 AM

I think one year is too short personally. Could you say 1 year minimum and will be reevalued after? If he shows a lot of regret and puts in a lot of effort to make things right a case could be made for allowing him to play competitively again. However as things stand he cheated and then lied about it for days. He was really close to having us all tricked. He did the worst thing you can do to esports and therefore having him play again so soon is something I find atrocious. I will never be able to trust him again and I will refuse to play vs him in an online tournament ever again.

Quick Comments

	Synizta:	I personally think this is a good idea. ^^
	nirvAnA:	re-evaluation is an excellent idea
	TCPLemminks:
	Champi:
	Another:	100% agree

Shieldz · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:21 AM

I think SeoHyeon doesn't deserve such a harsh punishment, yes maybe he knows that its bad but he probably doesn't know it was that serious this does not mean that its wrong to give him such a harsh punishment but it will literally make him quit his pro gaming career. As other people have said that they already chat to him and most people knows that he already regret very bad as he said he will quit pro gaming if that's the punishment but making this whole thing public is actually going to make him quit his pro gaming career. Also does this seriously have to end someone's pro gaming career we don't really want to do that do we, don't we want people to learn and grow and not make the same mistakes instead of ending their pro gaming career. Please reconsider i think that's just a little to harsh even though its a really serious case we shouldn't end his gaming career by having this on reddit and TL

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	pro gaming career.
	iM MaFia:	i counted 5 of them and 1 gaming career XD
	Fourby:	please use more commas and fullstops

**nirvAnA** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:32 AM

I have not posted it on TL/reddit yet, will await tgun/rossi and others who have talked to him in the channel after the incident, and them edit the OP to include SeoHyeon's side / understanding of the whole matter.

Quick Comments

	Shieldz:
	Asrathiel:

Zealo · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 4:08 AM

i doubt making this public is going to end his pro gaming career (if wider community's reaction to major last time is anything to go by). any fans he has, any tournaments he enters, any teams he represents (present or future) deserve to have this information available to them.

if he would suffer serious consequences from this being made public, those consequences would be exactly what the wider starcraft community feels is appropriate for an offence like this. when that is essentially his only punishment, how can you argue that's too harsh?

Quick Comments

	Sedz:
	Pox:

**PiG** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 1:42 PM

Who is seoyheon and what team does he progame for? VvV is not a pro team to my knowledge though they probably have some small sponsorship.

NvRossi · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 1:46 PM

He is simply VVVSeohyeon or Lofseohyeon....

All i know from talking to him is that he was sponsored with steelseries gear. He also represents them in teamleagues etc.

http://www.vvv-gaming.com/about-us

**PiG** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 1:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NvRossi

He is simply VVVSeohyeon or Lofseohyeon....

All i know from talking to him is that he was sponsored with steelseries gear. He also represents them in teamleagues etc.

http://www.vvv-gaming.com/about-us

ok yeah so he's not really a korean progamer, he's a korean that has some sponsorship with his foreign team. Thanks for clearing that up.

**Sent1nel** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 2:55 PM

Edit: This was in relation to a previous comment. Removed as it could be taken the wrong way.

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	?
	syfCabracan:	Careful with that gif :D

**inFeZa** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvana

i also feel that certain key people should be awarded for their efforts in this case with a custom achievement. These would be posters such as rossi, tgun, mafia, iaguz, uhf among others. All of whom spent a lot of time and effort that ultimately brought chobo to justice. Thegentleman, i am looking at you for this logo

detective rossdawg achievement

Quick Comments

souljah:

hard-on boys strike again

**Maynarde** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

And as maynade said +1 to SC2SEA

Quick Comments

	TABottles:	maynade mad
	Dox:	u so sily dolan
	TCPLemminks:	Marynarde <3

**Sent1nel** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:20 PM

With regard to any LAN and Online events I am affiliated with Chobo will experience a 1 year ban. He has irrefutably proven his worth as someone who has absolutely no regard for the community. Online or on LAN, at the end of the day it's the same community he is willing to harm.

**VoxMSI.Rogue** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:24 PM

I think Chobo should just be told to **** off for life.

He repeatedly lied and messed people around until he was found out and forced to admit what he had done. It is disgusting and dishonorable.

There is no shame in being a lower level player, no shame in not being GM or never winning a Masters Cup. But doing this, is ******* shameful. Cheating good players, wasting peoples time and lying about it when caught out is unforgivable. He had the chance more than once to own up and be a man, yet he repeatedly took the cowards way out.

If there is one thing our community should take a stand on, it is shit like this.

Quick Comments

Another:

SmirkToT · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:25 PM

i think 1 year is too short

SungInSPR · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:30 PM

i think 1year is enough, u guys want them to join tournament in Legacy of the Void? lol

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	lol!
	Shieldz:

**Maynarde** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 3:39 PM

This punishment is more than enough imo when you take into account that not only are both banned for a year, but their names are marked with shame. They'll never be looked at the same way in the competitive SEA scene ever again, I'd be very surprised if we saw either of them competing in SEA events again.

EvetS's map hack ban would be up by now, seen him in any tournaments lately?

Quick Comments

sRAnti:

Evets ban ends next month. 6 months is a long time.

alwaysdryToT · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 10:53 PM

we have known this story for more than 1 year... it is not a secret in ToT clan

**syfChadMann** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwaysdryToT

we have known this story for more than 1 year... it is not a secret in ToT clan

wait...
wtf...
Are you saying you knew what was going on with CHobo and Hyun?
WTF?

alwaysdryToT · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

wait...
wtf...
Are you saying you knew what was going on with CHobo and Hyun?
WTF?

No, just smurfing.

FaDeHellfyre · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwaysdryToT

No, just smurfing.

sharing could have really saved the whole community a whole lot of time....

bit of a dick move there tbh

x5_Bard · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:07 PM

i think alwaysdry is saying that tot always had suspicions that chobo was a smurf from 1 year back. I highly doubt they knew the information that came to light recently

FaDeHellfyre · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:09 PM

I'm not saying that they knew, that would be too much to assume. Even bringing up a suspicion though would have made the whole process a lot easier and quicker for a lot of people.

considering that as soon as the suspicion and analysis came out, both parties concerned admitted to everything.

**nirvAnA** · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:10 PM

I think some of ToT actually knew about it, since I heard one of their star players did help level up his account on ladder, as did another up and comer from another team. I guess they just didn't wanna be involved in it, which brings me to my next point. If thats the case why reveal it now? Not the wisest move, and any anonymous tips like the one i received which lead to us uncovering the evidence would have been very helpful and saved us a lot of time.

Quick Comments

FaDeHellfyre:

for saying what i'm trying to, but much much better :P

alwaysdryToT · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:15 PM

We didnt know he smurf in tournament，thought only on ladder games. and we tried to expose him before but someone come to stop us.

Quick Comments

	TCPLemminks:	EXTRA DRAMA? WHO?
	nirvAnA:
	FaDeHellfyre:	thanks for clearing that up :)

Cyanide · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:19 PM

I think we should not press on any further. The case has already been closed.
Just let it be known that if you wanted to stay anonymous, you could always PM the admins. I'm sure they will hold that information as well as your identity with discretion.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Yup, thats exactly what happened with the tip we got :)

alwaysdryToT · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:26 PM

The only reason I expose it so late is I just know it today. haha, no more extra drama, end of story

Quick Comments

	seminaked:	sb老干
	AlopexToT:

SmirkToT · Fri, 8th-Jun-2012, 11:44 PM

i somehow know it for a long time
but no proof. (what kice was acting before obvious evidence?)
its just rossi too gosu(found he was following seohyoen in twitch account)

Quick Comments

AlopexToT:

deL · Sun, 10th-Jun-2012, 9:22 AM

Quick Comments

Snx.FigJig:

how long did it take to find this one? good work m8!

breadfan · Sun, 10th-Jun-2012, 12:45 PM

Haven't had the chance to talk to CHoBo but given what he's posted, I don't think I need to.

Just wanted to add that I feel really let down personally, as someone who 1) paid for coaching from him, and 2) recommended his coaching to others. Back when this was a question of him hacking, I was ready to jump in and make a post backing him up - I didn't think he was a hacker. Given the outcome though, I'm glad not to have thrown in my support. I mean, cheating is cheating.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

BalloonSPR · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:26 AM

LOL stupid;

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:
	deL:

Kepler · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 9:47 AM

It's still very surreal to know someone personally that was embroiled in so much drama.

I'm glad that Nirvana and Iaguz, among others, took their time with analysis and allowed the actual truth to come to light.

deL · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 9:58 AM

I'd like to see CHoBo banned until he refunds all of his coaching students or at least donates the money he made from it to sc2sea to go back into the community.

breadfan · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChesthairMcBiceps

I'd like to see CHoBo banned until he refunds all of his coaching students or at least donates the money he made from it to sc2sea to go back into the community.

That's not really fair. Having a punishment that applies for tournaments for cheating in tournaments is pretty reasonable to me

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Yeap, same thing we did for the map hackers caught

TAminimat · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 11:18 AM

I agree with del, at least a forum ban.. People like targa get bans for harmless trolling, chobo does this shit and a week after he is on here trolling.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

lol @harmless - if it offends masses of people it needs a change from him not them.

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breadfan

That's not really fair. Having a punishment that applies for tournaments for cheating in tournaments is pretty reasonable to me

What is a suitable punishment for cheating coaching students?.. The guy was a lying little worm that took people's money based on a lie!?!!...

Quick Comments

TAavanar:

i agree with chad and del on this

souljah · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breadfan

That's not really fair. Having a punishment that applies for tournaments for cheating in tournaments is pretty reasonable to me

Thing is, when Seohyeon smurfed laddering for him, it got him so high in GM ranking that Chobo was actually made a GM Manual coach. In this, he not only "stole" money from tournaments in having seohyeon play for him in Masters Cup, but also in getting money from the community in coaching, when he clearly isn't at said level1

Quick Comments

	AsGNabi:	chobo was gm before seo was laddering him fyi
	syfChadMann:	Counter - yo

Bash · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souljah

Thing is, when Seohyeon smurfed laddering for him, it got him so high in GM ranking that Chobo was actually made a GM Manual coach. In this, he not only "stole" money from tournaments in having seohyeon play for him in Masters Cup, but also in getting money from the community in coaching, when he clearly isn't at said level1

People did recommend his coaching to others though, maybe his credentials werent legit, but he did have some happy students that obviously enjoyed the experience, so he must've been coaching alright, and if anyone was displeased with it then i suspect they wouldve come forward and said so,

Not saying he didnt dick everyone around way too much, but he did provide a service to those he coached.

+1 to forum ban though, atleast for a little while.

CHoBo(kice) · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:06 PM

I will happily take a forum ban if that is what everyone wants.

TADivinity · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

I will happily take a forum ban if that is what everyone wants.

It doesnt matter if you take the overall punishment happily or not, just know youre obviously being punished.

I came to say that this kid should be IMMEDIATELY banned from forum posts. This thread http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=4962 shows his pure immaturity and I think real attitude towards the matter.

I'd also like to add that I think when smurfing where money is involved - this is far more serious than map hacking on ladder, or even in a tournament. Mafia etc cited the mental elements that go into big games, that simply dont exist when someone smurfs.

Furthermore, it frustrates me that vVvseohyeon enters with broken english and receieves a tonne of sympathy. HE WAS HERE TO UNFAIRLY TAKE MONEY FROM OUR OWN PLAYERS - and we gain ZERO advantage of having some SEA exposure from good Koreans playing.

He would have happily taken our money without a worry, and there is no doubt in my mind Chobo would have seen some of this.

I am in a total burn-the-witch state of mind on this one - please dont become sympathetic when deciding the length of punishment

NvRossi · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

I will happily take a forum ban if that is what everyone wants.

you act like people give a shit about your opinion

Quick Comments

	Criven:	Take the high road.
	TAEdgE:
	CHoBo(kice):	>.>
	TAavanar:	LOL

deL · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breadfan

That's not really fair. Having a punishment that applies for tournaments for cheating in tournaments is pretty reasonable to me

He also cheated in ladder, and decieved people about his actual skill level which lead him to becoming a coach on the site - damaging the site and community as well as anyone who recieved training from him. It really doesn't show that he is apologetic or in any way remorseful of his actions unless he offered these things.

Fourby · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:35 PM

I'd

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChesthairMcBiceps

I'd like to see CHoBo banned until he refunds all of his coaching students or at least donates the money he made from it to sc2sea to go back into the community.
__________________

^^^THIS x10000.

like I said last night/this morning to nirvana, Hacking on ladder is one thing, but cheating in a tournament where Money is involved is a completely different thing. Not to mention he would have taken it and not even looked back if he wasnt caught + the coaching he has been giving from TGM.

This is money people are working hard for, its ridiculous that this can be compared to just ladder hackers.

(for some reason nirv said hacking is a lot worse than smurfing lol. but I think that's just coz it was like 5am and he was trying to watch MLG and wasnt thinking haha)

Quick Comments

TADivinity:

Exactly what im saying. This is the worst case we've had IMO

breadfan · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

What is a suitable punishment for cheating coaching students?.. The guy was a lying little worm that took people's money based on a lie!?!!...

As someone who actually was coached, I feel I'm in a qualified position to give insight on this. Beyond this I really don't want to get involved though, I'm not trying to defend any of the smurfing or anything at all, so don't get the wrong idea. I just think demanding refunds for everyone for chunks of $20 (that were probably supplemented into weekly income, rather than put aside in a managed fund or something) is wrong. And wrong in principle, not only in this one case.

I paid for coaching, and I got the coaching I paid for. He spent the time in sessions, he analysed replays, and he answered questions. I improved at least as much as I expected to from coaching. I'm paying for that time, not for his ability. Coaching isn't all about what level of GM someone is - I'm pretty confident I got coached by a GM player, whether he is top 10 or top 200 GM doesn't really make a difference, at least for me. Coaching style and methods are more important - the person needs to be able to transfer their skill to you. I feel you'd get more out of coaching with a master's player who is able to effectively communicate and teach you than IM_Mvp, if Mvp wasn't able to communicate in a way that enabled transfer of skill.

As I said in a previous post, my biggest concern is that people who I recommended him to might feel differently than I. They may genuinely feel ripped off, and that might reflect poorly on me. However, that's more of a personal issue. I don't feel I'm owed any money or anything.

Quick Comments

	Rage:	This was my point. Anyone short of top GM themselves will get just as much coaching from a low GM/masters as from top GM
	CHoBo(kice):
	MooZfY:
	Zealo:
	AsGNabi:
	nirvAnA:
	ToRSpartaz:

Criven · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 1:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by breadfan

As someone who actually was coached, I feel I'm in a qualified position to give insight on this. Beyond this I really don't want to get involved though, I'm not trying to defend any of the smurfing or anything at all, so don't get the wrong idea. I just think demanding refunds for everyone for chunks of $20 (that were probably supplemented into weekly income, rather than put aside in a managed fund or something) is wrong. And wrong in principle, not only in this one case.

Another satisfied customer here.. The coaching was done well. I received what I paid for and even if refunds are offered I wouldn't go about claiming them.

I think in order for this black mark to be scrubbed from the pages of this sites history and generally move on admins should implement a forum ban on the members involved to avoid flare ups occurring and make what has been mentioned stick with dates and conditions in place in order to avoid issues like those suffered with Deth (?) a while back.

Quick Comments

CHoBo(kice):

Doghead26 · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 2:26 PM

Same here, I feel his teaching methods was really good and even though he might not be top 20 gm what not, he did a real good job with coaching and he took his time to do it and he done his homework on how to coach.

Quick Comments

	Criven:
	nirvAnA:

iM SundeR · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doghead26

Same here, I feel his teaching methods was really good and even though he might not be top 20 gm what not, he did a real good job with coaching and he took his time to do it and he done his homework on how to coach.

Nice try, ChoBo.

Quick Comments

	jayaiwhy:	that's not chobo
	Fourby:	yeh its probably some korean
	Zealo:	he's from singapore and moving to perth to study next year...
	AsGNabi:	that spelling and grammar is far too good to be chobo
	nirvAnA:	:(
	TAEdgE:	haha nabi
	EveMassacrisM:	1st thing came to mind.

CHoBo(kice) · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 3:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SundeR

Nice try, ChoBo.

Except dog head was referred to me by Zealo. Switched from Zerg to Terran. Started as a platinum and now definatly masters - mid masters worthy. His determination to improve is impressive, has showed improvement very quickly and follows instructions very well. Credit to AsG

Quick Comments

Doghead26:

ToRSpookToR · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 3:12 PM

yeah i know doghead its not chobo^^

Quick Comments

Doghead26:

iM SundeR · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 3:17 PM

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:	nice try
	breadfan:

CHoBo(kice) · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:03 PM

As a kind gesture, I have given a additional lesson to all students at no charge. In fact dog head has already received his. Most have been contacted about this, for those who havnt this is available... Please contact me. I also thank you for your support.

For any one not satisfied I will address the situation case by case basis and try to provide a reasonable solution. Nobody I have found so far is unsatisfied.

Quick Comments

	Doghead26:
	Spud:	homo
	ROOTPetraeus:	god damn it wheres my neg rep
	nirvAnA:	I'm sure everyone is still mad at you but this is a step in the right direction

**nirvAnA** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:15 PM

I removed the AsG tag from his name since he has been kicked from the clan.

Also his name is now labeled and he will wear that badge of shame every time he posts.

Same thing will go follow the map hackers who were caught in the past but we not banned from the forums.
A tag will be displayed under their forum name for the duration of the ban.

Quick Comments

	Peleus:	rofl awesome
	iMSystem:
	Bash:
	Nemo:	Good idea
	CHoBo(kice):

neKo · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:22 PM

I can't believe how lightly we have treated the punishment, this is a guy who has lied to the community and attempted to steal money from our pro scene, and we are still giving him the leisure of being part of it?

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	Its for consistency, the map hackers were not banned too as they didn't break forum rules
	Peleus:	I think we should be consistant and ban them all for life.
	breadfan:	I like nirvAnA's approach and there's no reason it can't be re-evaluated in 1 year if necessary

Nerphed · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChesthairMcBiceps

I'd like to see CHoBo banned until he refunds all of his coaching students or at least donates the money he made from it to sc2sea to go back into the community.

See, I recieved coaching from him and while yes, it did come as a surprise that he smurfed a tournament,
his coaching was still valid, still helped and I got what I paid for, I think you need to understand that wanting him to be a bad player cos he annoyed you, is alot different to him actually being a bad player. At least, that's how I read you feel about it.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	Thanks for sharing. He was indeed GM, just not "Top level" gm
	AsGNabi:

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:37 PM

I think the issue isn't so much the students - but he cheated out other legitimate Terran coaches.. HuT or iaguz could have been able to provide the service - that they have legitimately obtained the ability to give.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	good point :)
	breadfan:	No one else was coaching T when I started my lessons, but good point for those who had the choice between CHoBo/HuT

CHoBo(kice) · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cRneko

I can't believe how lightly we have treated the punishment, this is a guy who has lied to the community and attempted to steal money from our pro scene, and we are still giving him the leisure of being part of it?

Dude I could easily just use one of my other accounts in gm and start again. But I don't. This punishment I have accepted and am wearing the badge of shame which is IMO better.

Nerphed · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:40 PM

Why weren't they allowed to take a spot as a listed coach as well? Diversity is good and competition drives people to try harder, therefore better coaching....?

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

They are other coaches - but CHobo took students off them... -_-

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHoBo(kice)

Dude I could easily just use one of my other accounts in gm and start again. But I don't. This punishment I have accepted and am wearing the badge of shame which is IMO better.

speaking of which - I think you should be forced to name your other accounts - your tournament ban is not just for your CHobo account. If not publicly - nirvAnA must be informed.

Quick Comments

Synizta:

I agree 100% with this.

Nerphed · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:49 PM

Hmm see again I see that as being biased because he cheated in a tournament, you assume he can't coach and therefore took students off them, I personally didn't even look to HuT or iaguz, so he definantly didn't take me from anyone. I guess I'm just more forgiving than you, I don't know but It really seems like you're out to get this guy due to a personal vendetta or something. Same with Peleus.. I don't know I don't really spend enough time in the forums or on the channels to really understand if that's the case, and don't take offense, I'm not making any accusations, just merely observations.

-edit- added last sentence instead of making another post.

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:51 PM

I'm saying - he used others to level up his account to GM - there is ZERO way of knowing he is even close to GM skill level - his coaching was offered of false pretences - if you were looking for coaching, and the two available options were HuT (GM level sponsored Terran player) or MrX (Diamond level no-name) who would you pick?

It wouldn't be the diamond level player. However, if said diamond player paid a high level European and Korean to level up his account to GM.. then had an impressive record on ladder.. you might be more comfortable getting coaching from him.
(hypothetically speaking - of course

In short, this elaborate lie has stolen the opportunity of coaching from people like HuT, iaguz, etc...

CHoBo(kice) · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:52 PM

Hello chad I'm still here and still playing under Chobo. will not be disclosing other accounts as they are for paying customers

AsGNabi · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

I think the issue isn't so much the students - but he cheated out other legitimate Terran coaches.. HuT or iaguz could have been able to provide the service - that they have legitimately obtained the ability to give.

I think people are starting to lose perspective on this..

Students have the option to go wherever they want. Chobo got his title to coach just like anyone else did. This was way before what has recently happened. If they didn't like his coaching, they could go to someone else. If he didn't care about his students, he would have offered nothing.

Quick Comments

	deL:	thanks for you unbiased opinion you nosty bitch
	RicocheT:	^ No need for that mate
	Sedz:	Yeah cmon, no need for personal insults. :/
	Kepler:	Grow the **** up deL.
	CHoBo(kice):	not cool at all deL
	breadfan:	Timeframe is definitely a little hazy though, everyone seems to hold a different idea

Nerphed · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:56 PM

Ok but, after Chobo's post just now, we know know he's holding accounts in GM, I'm a diamond Terran on NA and if I had someone power me up to GM I would lose the placement very quickly I'm sure, so there's LOTS of ways of knowing he's more than close to GM skill level

x5_Bard · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:56 PM

And if he cared about his students it would have been for free.

iM SundeR · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

I think people are starting to lose perspective on this..

Students have the option to go wherever they want. Chobo got his title to coach just like anyone else did. This was way before what has recently happened. If they didn't like his coaching, they could go to someone else. If he didn't care about his students, he would have offered nothing.

Wooooahh, what? Didn't ChoBo originally get appointed to his TGM coaching position through a sick ladder record that he didn't even get himself?

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHoBo(kice)

Hello chad I'm still here and still playing under Chobo. will not be disclosing other accounts as they are for paying customers

You mean Hyun and Naama paid YOU to play on your account?..

nirvAnA needs to know these accounts so your tournament ban can apply to them.. Kice is banned from tournaments, not just CHobo.. Your a liar and a cheat, plus your arrogance is shocking. for someone that cheated to gain an ego, I would have thought it would be deflated when you were caught.

Either way, I don't think you will have any more 'paying customers' you certainly don't deserve any.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

Chobo got his title to coach just like anyone else did.

You mean he cheated and had someone else play on his account...? pretty sure iaguz earnt his coaching title himself..
And sure - you can say he did it himself.. but I wouldn't believe a liar like him - why would he cheat after being decent enough to be a GM coach?.. or is he just not good enough..?

Peleus · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerphed

Hmm see again I see that as being biased because he cheated in a tournament, you assume he can't coach and therefore took students off them, I personally didn't even look to HuT or iaguz, so he definantly didn't take me from anyone. I guess I'm just more forgiving than you, I don't know but It really seems like you're out to get this guy due to a personal vendetta or something. Same with Peleus.. I don't know I don't really spend enough time in the forums or on the channels to really understand if that's the case, and don't take offense, I'm not making any accusations, just merely observations.

-edit- added last sentence instead of making another post.

No personal vendetta in the sense I don't even know Chobo.

On the flip side, I absolutely despise cheaters, and so many have shown again and again that they cannot be trusted and continue to lie and cheat in the future. This is a game where people are making a living off it, many people like Pig etc rely on income from coaching and tourny winnings. Cheating literally threatens their livelihood and I find it disgusting.

As a side note, I hate all cheaters equally, so I also despise anyone on that confirmed hacker thread list, and wish they would get all life bans and be totally removed from the community. If you're shown as a hacker you don't have any care for the community so why should you have a chance at being a part of it.

I had a look in my sc2gears for something and realised that over the last 314 days I've played 1129 hours ingame. That's 14% of my hours dedicated to try and get better at starcraft 2. Sad for some people but it's what I enjoy / how I relax. I can't imagine how much effort people like Mafia, Pig, Tgun, Iaguz, etc etc put in to get better at this game. Imagine all that being nullified by some dick going and downloading some hacks and taking prize money off you. Wouldn't you be furious too?

AsGNabi · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SundeR

Wooooahh, what? Didn't ChoBo originally get appointed to his TGM coaching position through a sick ladder record that he didn't even get himself?

No. Please don't just make assumptions.

Quick Comments

	neKo:	what then? tell us if you know.
	iM SundeR:	no assumption, its true

x5.Revenant · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHoBo(kice)

Hello chad I'm still here and still playing under Chobo. will not be disclosing other accounts as they are for paying customers

It is quite obvious that the majority(if not whole) community does not want you(a messed up person ethically) to be here. Why are you still posting as if nothing happened?

Edit:

Nerphed · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peleus

No personal vendetta in the sense I don't even know Chobo.

On the flip side, I absolutely despise cheaters, and so many have shown again and again that they cannot be trusted and continue to lie and cheat in the future. This is a game where people are making a living off it, many people like Pig etc rely on income from coaching and tourny winnings. Cheating literally threatens their livelihood and I find it disgusting.

As a side note, I hate all cheaters equally, so I also despise anyone on that confirmed hacker thread list, and wish they would get all life bans and be totally removed from the community. If you're shown as a hacker you don't have any care for the community so why should you have a chance at being a part of it.

I had a look in my sc2gears for something and realised that over the last 314 days I've played 1129 hours ingame. That's 14% of my hours dedicated to try and get better at starcraft 2. Sad for some people but it's what I enjoy / how I relax. I can't imagine how much effort people like Mafia, Pig, Tgun, Iaguz, etc etc put in to get better at this game. Imagine all that being nullified by some dick going and downloading some hacks and taking prize money off you. Wouldn't you be furious too?

Sure, but Chobo didn't/doesn't hack?

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

he did cheat tho.. and its just as bad.

iM yang · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerphed

Sure, but Chobo didn't/doesn't hack?

cheater =! hacker

Ripped · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revenant

It is quite obvious that the majority(if not whole) community does not want you(a messed up person ethically) to be here. Why are you still posting as if nothing happened?

^^, the punishment is unjust for the act committed. Imo to cheat in a friendly tournament on sc2sea should act in a life ban from online events in association with sc2sea, although should still be able to attend Lan events past a certain period of time. Disgusting.

Edit: Yes, i will let you win Bard. Also, how is he still able to post on the forums :l ?

Peleus · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerphed

Sure, but Chobo didn't/doesn't hack?

Cheater / Hacker, same principle applies for both.

x5_Bard · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:05 PM

Quote:

Imo to cheat in a friendly tournament on sc2sea should act in a life ban from online events in association with sc2sea

Since the masters cup is a friendly tournament, would you guys mind just letting me win the next one?

Would be really nice

iM MaFia · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

I think people are starting to lose perspective on this..

Students have the option to go wherever they want. Chobo got his title to coach just like anyone else did. This was way before what has recently happened. If they didn't like his coaching, they could go to someone else. If he didn't care about his students, he would have offered nothing.

good analogy, but you're missing the point,

im sure students would have chosen to go to HuT or iaguz if they knew chobo wasn't even grandmaster

how did chobo get his title like anyone else did? he had a smurf play his account

kayhan was a good example, he probably realised that chobos coaching did not live upto his expectations so he went to jazbas a zerg player and got coaching from him and paid him in full.

if he cared about his students he wouldn't of tried to cover up the fact that he wasn't who he was when listed as a coach and chased up players like kayhan because he wouldnt pay when he didnt get what he was looking for

Nerphed · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:12 PM

I wont argue that cheaters arent better or worse than hackers or anything of the sort, I just feel that people are taking the opportunity to be incredibly invasive and destructive, he took a chance, did something wrong, got caught and is honoring the punishment, keep your thoughts and ideas for the tournament ban, don't start demanding he pay back coaching money, christ. If the customers at my work started telling me I had to pay back all of my money I earned because I did something wrong even though throughout the months of earning that money I earned it in a legitimate fashion, I'd tell them to get ******, the fact Chobo offered to refund me is but admirable but stupid, I think he really shouldn't bow down so far to everybody.
Damn that was a long post o.0

-edit- Oops, I thought there was a language filter in place, fixed that n.n

SanG · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:17 PM

In ladder, hacking is worse than smurfing.
In a tournament smurfing is worse than hacking
IMO

Quick Comments

	deL:	hard to distinguish, both are just "cheating"
	RicocheT:	Both are bad bro

RicocheT · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:18 PM

Can see both sides of the argument.
I can only say one thing, which is kinda off-topic but w.e

As a Terran, why wouldn't you go to Iaguz for coaching?
Dat BEARD!!!

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

iaguz is taking a break from coaching!

AsGNabi · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

good analogy, but you're missing the point,

im sure students would have chosen to go to HuT or iaguz if they knew chobo wasn't even grandmaster

how did chobo get his title like anyone else did? he had a smurf play his account

kayhan was a good example, he probably realised that chobos coaching did not live upto his expectations so he went to jazbas a zerg player and got coaching from him and paid him in full.

if he cared about his students he wouldn't of tried to cover up the fact that he wasn't who he was when listed as a coach and chased up players like kayhan because he wouldnt pay when he didnt get what he was looking for

Kice was GM. Even when I played with him we were masters 2v2. This smurfing incident has only occurred recently, and he was coaching since last year. If he wasn't capable of coaching then why would his students continue to pay for more lessons? Wouldn't they realize something is a little off when his techniques weren't up to standard..

In Kayhan's case, fair enough if he didn't like the coaching.. but just like anything in life even if you don't like something that you are/have obliged to pay for, you shouldn't simply get it for free..

Quick Comments

	Nerphed:
	TAavanar:	yeah, masters 2v2= masters 1v1
	nirvAnA:	To clarify, he only became a TGM coach in Jan, and pretty sure it because of SeoHyeon's skill
	EveMassacrisM:	LOL@Masters 2v2.
	deL:	I am masters 2v2 TGM coach plz?
	CHoBo(kice):	Masters 2v2 while Bronze 1v1. You show them :D
	NvRossi:	you are absolutely clueless

iM SundeR · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:24 PM

Nabi - the smurfing incident didn't just occur 'recently', it's been going on for a long long time - this is proven in confessions by both parties. You don't understand that simply being in Grandmaster League is not enough to offer the high level, quality coaching that SC2SEA wants to give to people in The Grandmaster Manual scheme.

CHoBo(kice) · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:24 PM

Kayhan actually came back and wanted more lessons but would still not pay me for first lessons??? He said would pay at end for all this seemed fishy

Sedz · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:36 PM

Kice is still a GM level player, I've seen him play in person, but he's definitely not good enough to be taking games off the best, that much we know. Now, if we take what Seo has said himself, that he doesn't do coaching, and we know his english is horribly broken, we put two and two together and can assume it was Kice coaching, this can be further proved by his students.

Now, Kice obviously got a bit of business through being a TGM (Whether or not he was recognised as a coach legitimately or not, I'm not questioning) but he also got a lot of business through word and mouth, evidence his coaching was obviously beneficial to people who sought after it.

Sure he may have achieved his TGM title through smurfs on his account, but you can't deny customers were satisfied with his coaching, they paid money, and they received a beneficial and worthwhile service, so it seems illogical that he is made to pay back the money he received from coaching.

Quick Comments

	Bash:	logic is good!
	AsGNabi:	Just to add: He was on mic to students during lessons.
	CHoBo(kice):

AsGNabi · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SundeR

Nabi - the smurfing incident didn't just occur 'recently', it's been going on for a long long time - this is proven in confessions by both parties. You don't understand that simply being in Grandmaster League is not enough to offer the high level, quality coaching that SC2SEA wants to give to people in The Grandmaster Manual scheme.

I don't think you understand and seem to have great difficulty accepting the fact that Chobo's students were satisfied in his coaching. If they weren't, I'm sure they would have at least complained or stopped going to him and he would have eventually been taken off from coaching.

Quick Comments

	iM SundeR:	totally irrelevant. if he didnt smurf he would have no students, why dont you get this
	CHoBo(kice):

breadfan · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

I think the issue isn't so much the students - but he cheated out other legitimate Terran coaches.. HuT or iaguz could have been able to provide the service - that they have legitimately obtained the ability to give.

That's a fair concern. When I first contacted CHoBo for coaching, I don't think HuT was a recognised coach yet. The only other option was Yoon, who was long term inactive thanks to uni. Is iaguz back coaching? I don't think he's coached in the entire time I've been a member of SC2SEA, he does hang around and drop some pretty sweet knowledge in the TGM forums though, and anywhere it's needed for that matter.

I think we're talking extremes here though - there's no reason someone has to go to a TGM coach for coaching, and there's no reason CHoBo can't offer coaching off his own back without endorsement from this site, and that's still fair competition. But yes, when the overlap happens for people (probably most on here) who will prefer a TGM coach and had the choice and went with CHoBo due to his record (probably less so), that's very valid.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	iaguz is back!
	CHoBo(kice):

x5.Revenant · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

To clarify, he only became a TGM coach in Jan, and pretty sure it because of SeoHyeon's skill

This statement says it all. Kice does not have the qualifications to be a TGM Coach. That wraps it up, end of story.

**inFeZa** · Mon, 11th-Jun-2012, 11:48 PM

Why are you guys still defending him?
He cheated, Provoked everyone and denied claims, Banned and punished.
Its over. Its done.

Quick Comments

	VB_Rhuubarb:	Yep, time for everyone to move on
	nirvAnA:
	breadfan:	No one is defending any wrongdoing that I can see.

**nGenLight** · Tue, 12th-Jun-2012, 12:01 AM

He earnt his money fair and square, but he cheated to get into a position to earn his money. It is like paying for a degree, or getting other people to do your exams for you then getting a sick job. He shouldn't cough up the money because he earnt it with his own time and effort, but he did cheat other people who should have got those job opportunities. He should be stripped of his job/title/shamed and punished, but coughing up money he earnt himself? I don't think that's right.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

this. and all his students are actually satisfied as you can see

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 12th-Jun-2012, 12:06 AM

What infeza & Light said, and what already has been done. Closed.

Quick Comments

VB_Rhuubarb:

Finally :D