[VB_Rhuubarb]

EDIT: Sorry for bump, but I thought this was relevant and I feel strongly about Mech TvP

ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games.

He was doing an 8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions.

Some of the games I have watched so far:

+ [Spoilers] +

Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down

You Tube

You Tube

Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost.

You Tube

You Tube

[fur]

Originally Posted by VB_Rhuubarb

EDIT: Sorry for bump, but I thought this was relevant and I feel strongly about Mech TvP

ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games.

He was doing an 8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions.

Some of the games I have watched so far:

+ [Spoilers] +

Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpihW...eature=g-all-u

Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i73iu...eature=g-all-u

Interesting. He uses the exact same opening that Goody used to use when he still Meched. The point of difference was that he took an extremely fast 3rd CC (there was a massive window where I feel the protoss could have punched through, however he didn't), and used A LOT more Hellions than Goody ever did.

When he took his 3rd it was 2 tech labbed facts and 3 reactored. His Hellion harass was exemplary and he nailed about 40 probes before he ever pushed out.

This is an interesting idea.

The reason Mech stopped working (yes it once worked, despite it's many flaws) was the blue flame nerf. Immortals/Archons/Voids etc aren't you real problem when you mech. They're all very counterable with good EMP usage. Zealots are the problem.

Zealots eat tankshots for breakfast and bathe in blue flame. The fuckers just don't die to mech, and the protoss will be re-spawning these bastards 20 at a time late game while you wait an eternity to remax. Hack in the Ohana game was able to forge an economic lead and grind it out with simply ridiculous numbers of Hellions. So I guess it can still work.

Worth noting, however, was that despite his probe kills and excellent use of PDD and EMP the Units Lost count was pretty much even all game. It's not the highly efficient deathball it is Vs. Zerg and Terran.

[VB_Rhuubarb]

Originally Posted by fur

Interesting. He uses the exact same opening that Goody used to use when he still Meched. The point of difference was that he took an extremely fast 3rd CC (there was a massive window where I feel the protoss could have punched through, however he didn't), and used A LOT more Hellions than Goody ever did.

When he took his 3rd it was 2 tech labbed facts and 3 reactored. His Hellion harass was exemplary and he nailed about 40 probes before he ever pushed out.

This is an interesting idea.

The reason Mech stopped working (yes it once worked, despite it's many flaws) was the blue flame nerf. Immortals/Archons/Voids etc aren't you real problem when you mech. They're all very counterable with good EMP usage. Zealots are the problem.

Zealots eat tankshots for breakfast and bathe in blue flame. The fuckers just don't die to mech, and the protoss will be re-spawning these bastards 20 at a time late game while you wait an eternity to remax. Hack in the Ohana game was able to forge an economic lead and grind it out with simply ridiculous numbers of Hellions. So I guess it can still work.

Worth noting, however, was that despite his probe kills and excellent use of PDD and EMP the Units Lost count was pretty much even all game. It's not the highly efficient deathball it is Vs. Zerg and Terran.

If you ever are waiting an eternity (more than 2 production rounds) to remax as mech you've lost unless you are way ahead on eco (like Hack vs Lure). This hellion style allows you to remax faster than other more turtley-tech styles, but those styles trade better also (assuming you don't **** the engagement).

With the turtle style you replace you losses (generally hellions and couple of banshees) with things like ghosts/ravens/BCs while keeping your tank count around 10-12 on your 'remax' (which is generally just 1 round of production as with most 200/200 battles you lose like 50 supply while they upwards of 100). Eventually you get something similar to the GSL finals game on Metropolis, but you don't let them vortex you! (Well to be honest I don't make THAT many BCs (20) and still have several tanks while having the ghost/raven/banshee/1 or 2 thors mixture/vikings iff needed)

The hellion style seems more reliant on doing economic damage during the midgame, but also has the potential to do that, unlike the turtle style, which just sits there and acquires a balanced army which trades super well.

I can guarantee that mech works up to (including) diamond as I've been doing it for 2 seasons. So anyone who wants to try mech (for whatever reason... sick of bio vP lategame) but is used to bio should try Hacks style as it is a lot more 'like bio' than the turtle styles, which is more like playing the campaign mission where you just try to survive for 30 (blizzard) minutes. I just chose to share this (the hack games) as it's definitely the highest level tourney mech vP that I've seen in a while.

[fur]

Originally Posted by VB_Rhuubarb

If you ever are waiting an eternity (more than 2 production rounds) to remax as mech you've lost unless you are way ahead on eco (like Hack vs Lure). This hellion style allows you to remax faster than other more turtley-tech styles, but those styles trade better also (assuming you don't **** the engagement).

With the turtle style you replace you losses (generally hellions and couple of banshees) with things like ghosts/ravens/BCs while keeping your tank count around 10-12 on your 'remax' (which is generally just 1 round of production as with most 200/200 battles you lose like 50 supply while they upwards of 100). Eventually you get something similar to the GSL finals game on Metropolis, but you don't let them vortex you! (Well to be honest I don't make THAT many BCs (20) and still have several tanks while having the ghost/raven/banshee/1 or 2 thors mixture/vikings iff needed)

The hellion style seems more reliant on doing economic damage during the midgame, but also has the potential to do that, unlike the turtle style, which just sits there and acquires a balanced army which trades super well.

I can guarantee that mech works up to (including) diamond as I've been doing it for 2 seasons. So anyone who wants to try mech (for whatever reason... sick of bio vP lategame) but is used to bio should try Hacks style as it is a lot more 'like bio' than the turtle styles, which is more like playing the campaign mission where you just try to survive for 30 (blizzard) minutes. I just chose to share this (the hack games) as it's definitely the highest level tourney mech vP that I've seen in a while.

It can work at many levels as Hack has shown. I've won at mid/high master using it and Avilo still does it occasionally at GM level on NA. It does, however, have a fuckton of deficiencies that really need to be pointed out to anyone who thinks it might be the answer to there TvP woes.

Namely, it's not going to be the protoss death ball killer that we all wish it was. Hack plays it so well, and relies on doing a heap of damage through harass/clever openings and then grinds the protoss down. Much like you would do with Bio really.

Because of that it's at best a nice curiosity to throw into a series.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by fur

When he took his 3rd it was 2 tech labbed facts and 3 reactored. His Hellion harass was exemplary and he nailed about 40 probes before he ever pushed out.

Honestly, if you're killing that many probes, you can probably win with whatever you want.

The other thing with 'meching' against protoss, I think, is that you need air units (banshees/vikings) and ghosts to beat gateway/robo armies (archons/immortals/colo/chargelots) which means protoss gets fast 3/3 with chrono, and you never really get 3/3 on all your units regardless (unless you can afford 4 armories or something dumb).

3/3/3 protoss units are -good- against 2/2 or so mech.

[fur]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Honestly, if you're killing that many probes, you can probably win with whatever you want.

The other thing with 'meching' against protoss, I think, is that you need air units (banshees/vikings) and ghosts to beat gateway/robo armies (archons/immortals/colo/chargelots) which means protoss gets fast 3/3 with chrono, and you never really get 3/3 on all your units regardless (unless you can afford 4 armories or something dumb).

3/3/3 protoss units are -good- against 2/2 or so mech.

He probably wouldn't have gotten that many probe kills without blue flame, but your point is valid. It's definitely a build designed to punish the kind of protoss that does pretty much nothing but expand and defend. He takes a lot of risks to assemble his death ball, and then it's not really that much stronger than if he were playing straight bio.