[nGenLight]

Redirected from here as to not spoil BalloonSPR's introduction thread. http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=59623&postcount=32 (being good at starcraft gets you alot of priviledges and fans that will defend you)

I will save the introduction and theory as we have been through this stuff many times and get right to the question:

My original post:

First of all, welcome to SC2SEA BalloonSPR.

Not intending to bring a negative tone to such a warming thread. But somebody had to bring this subject up. I'm going to have negs reps fired my way, but this discussion needs to be had.

Considering the OP is at the subject of whether or not he was permitted to play in the SEACL, does writing an introduction thread and playing 100 ladder games very quickly put him in the same category to someone like SoulmanSPR whos been around for a while.

I am not trying to convince anybody to change his status in SEACL, just wanted to discuss with everyone - hearing the thoughts of everyone about acheiving SEACL eligibility after such very simple requirements (introduction thread + 100 ladder games), because this is what MasterSPR was advocating for the rest of his original SPR lineup - of how to become an "active" member of SEA.

I firmly believe if he continues to play alot and be involved in the scene, there would be no question of his eligibility for the next SEA event. But the sudden eligibility to play in SEACL just makes the introduction thread a little less transparent.

If I am wrong and Balloon has actually been involved in the scene for yonks and I'm just clueless, I apologize and please disregard my post.

Since this is a new thread and I don't have to pretend to be kind, I'm just going to lay it out pretty flat: What does it take for a NON-SEA Citizen/Resident to achieve egibility at SC2SEA events?

For precedence: (1) We have allowed all NON-SEA Citizens/Residents to participate in the SEACO with no limits to them. (2) Eddie's Master Cup has a 100 ladder game rule.

During the debate with MasterSPR: Numerous members have brought up how easily 100 ladder games can be achieved, especially by these StarCraft machines and have unanimously revoked that idea of achieving "community status" for eligibility to the SEACL.

So is the rule: 100 ladder games on SEA + Posting on SC2SEA.com? Because if that was the case MasterSPR would have taken that option in a heartbeat. Or is it, 100 ladder games on SEA + Make people/mods from SC2SEA/Admins like you enough to accept you by the "admin discretion rule". (Taking nothing away from Balloon's introduction thread, it is authentic and warmful, it just came at a controversial timing, with his sudden eligibity to play in the SEACL creating a question mark for myself, for reasons of purely political correctness.)

A ground rule should be set in stone, like Eddie's Master Cup of 100 ladder games is set in stone. Otherwise the "admin discretion rule" is going to completely break the argument many of us used against MasterSPR - Its too easy and simple to ladder 100 games and post a thread (An initiation to achieve activeness at SEA should not be counted as proven part of the communtiy). NON-SEA Citizens/Residents needs to be proven part of the community to achieve eligibility to major SEA events - Committing to SEA right before a tournament is not proof that this person is going to continue to be a part of this community. In this case, I feel the "admin discretion rule" was given to BalloonSPR with the benefit of the doubt that he will continue to be apart of the SEA community - To whether he will or not, I won't discuss this as I do not know him apart from the first impression via the introduction thread, which is very nice I must say. My only question is, why would this stop all members of MasterSPR's original SPR lineup to decide to do exactly what balloon did here? You guys do remember disagreeing to that right? Was the inclusion of a post on SC2SEA the difference? I am not trying to take a side, I just think some things should be set in stone.

Discuss.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Good thread
	AxSGRiM:

[TargA]

let them all play..

The koreans bring in more viewers, more hype, better competition and instead of blind countering everything your opponent does you actually have to scout vs these guys.

Quick Comments

FvRsolis:

this.

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by TargA

let them all play..

The koreans bring in more viewers, more hype, better competition and instead of blind countering everything your opponent does you actually have to scout vs these guys.

Not everyone is as good as you and owns Thorzain daily on EU kristy
bringing in unknown koreans won't bring in as many viewers anyway, or even lesser known top tier players, even though I think now letting non-progaming team players play (i.e balloon) is ideal.

[TargA]

Originally Posted by EdgE

Not everyone is as good as you and owns Thorzain daily on EU kristy
bringing in unknown koreans won't bring in as many viewers anyway, or even lesser known top tier players, even though I think now letting non-progaming team players play (i.e balloon)

i think they will bring in more viewers, when you make the posts on TL pretty much nobody will care if its a SEA event, but if you marked it such as we have motherfucking good koreans playing in this shit yo, then perhaps a lot of guys will tune in.

I know i never watched a sea event before i moved to australia and i rarely pay attention to any events that im not playing in, cause for me they are really boring.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	MOTHERFUCKIN GOOD KOREANS N SHIT YO
	AxSGRiM:

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by TargA

i think they will bring in more viewers, when you make the posts on TL pretty much nobody will care if its a SEA event, but if you marked it such as we have motherfucking good koreans playing in this shit yo, then perhaps a lot of guys will tune in.

I know i never watched a sea event before i moved to australia and i rarely pay attention to any events that im not playing in, cause for me they are really boring.

So basically letting EVERY Korean play is saying 'SEA is so boring we need Koreans to artificially boost competition'. Unless advertised heavily, not many people will even know 'Soulman' or 'yCh' are playing, they played in masters cups etc. and the viewer count was not extraordinary and there wasn't a sudden boost to SEA outside of it. Dunno, feels that way

I think SPR has a good idea for future tournaments like this that I like though, but for this one the way Master initially acted to get all of them to play is what annoyed me.

edit: personally, I enjoy victory and with TA being unable to use Mafia, Light, deth and Pinder, we can't just (not saying Master did EXACTLY this for all members) go on Korea, ask someone to play 100 games and viola, we have new ace players! No. I like the competition to be as fair as possible, of course some teams may be slightly more stacked such as xGKing or TA before the player losses, but even then they are home grown and the best from SEA. I just don't like one team getting all these players 'because then perhaps a lot of guys will tune in'

[TargA]

Originally Posted by EdgE

So basically letting EVERY Korean play is saying 'SEA is so boring we need Koreans to artificially boost competition'. Unless advertised heavily, not many people will even know 'Soulman' or 'yCh' are playing, they played in masters cups etc. and the viewer count was not extraordinary and there wasn't a sudden boost to SEA outside of it. Dunno, feels that way

I think SPR has a good idea for future tournaments like this that I like though, but for this one the way Master initially acted to get all of them to play is what annoyed me.

masters cup is marketed as a SEA event, if we lied a little and told everyone it was a korean masters cup I think it would get a lot of viewers

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

Global Masters Cup League

[TAlkori]

make them play a minimum of 300 games, that way it shows that they actually spent some time on the SEA server...

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

I'm giving you rep because I miss you

[Nemo]

I don't think unknown Koreans will bring more viewers. If you bring MC and Nestea certainly, but if not I don't think so.

I f you want to play different players than the usual suspects you get in ladder, you always can play on Server or NA Server.

Semi-pro SEA players need the money from the local tournaments to increase their low income at the beginning and build a fan base at home (viewers, students, etc.) that is increase when you have success at your local tournaments.

[nGenLight]

Guys I'm loving the theory discussion. However, I am primarily interested in a "set ground rule" here. We've been through this theory discussion many times - this is not what I'm interested in. I am sure your opinions can go well to back up your answers.

P.S: I personally like an "invite" only system, with justification as why this non-resident is invited. If not a community member, strong reasoning needs to be given for his inclusion to SEA events - Not just "Oh he introduced himself, seems very nice and played 100 ladder games".

Quick Comments

PiG:

good man keeps thread on track

[Dox]

As long as the "unknowns" have some sort of history, people will watch. You just gotta tell a compelling story. Throw around words like "ex-fOu" and "SlayerS" and suddenly you get a lot more attention. Derailing, but just something to consider. It's all about how you market the event.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	I'm giving you rep even though you don't need anymore
	inFeZa:	like day9daily x2 veteran? D:
	AxSGRiM:
	Reere:

[ROOTPetraeus]

Personally, I think 100 games is acceptable. Any more than that and it gets a bit complicated. That amount of games is no small commitment, especially for players who don't usually play on our server. Anyway, thats just my thoughts.

[faithHunter]

The main problem is when the "foreigners" play 100 games in our server, then stops playing on our server and only start playing again when there's a tournament he wants to join.

IMO we should, other than making them play at least 100 games in our server, also make sure that the last game they played on our server is at least during the last 3 weeks or so.

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by neozxa

The main problem is when the "foreigners" play 100 games in our server, then stops playing on our server and only start playing again when there's a tournament he wants to join.

IMO we should, other than making them play at least 100 games in our server, also make sure that the last game they played on our server is at least during the last 3 weeks or so.

Going by that logic, they could just play 1 game every 3 weeks after their first 100 games. I think a certain amount of trust is required for this.

[Peleus]

I suppose I'll bring up a few points since I was the one who originally bought up the topic of asking for balloon (and others) to play.

Firstly - intro thread. This was never a requirement for him to play. No one on sc2sea asked him to do it, no one in SPR asked him to do it, he was already deemed eligable before he made the post. It's simply being nice and trying to make friends in the sea community (hell ask anyone in the spr channel lately with balloon pestering everyone to introduce him to TA members, giving out his email for real id, etc). Balloon never asked me to make the thread asking for him to play.

The post had nothing but good intentions so let's not misrepresent it as some sinister attempt to hoodwink the community.

Secondly - eligibility. Yes I agree clear rules should be made, as most people here know I was pushing for them constantly before I even asked about some players specifically. At least now clear guidelines have been set down. One of the biggest issues I see though is the perception that 'ladder games mean nothing'. To begin with there are very few metrics involved in determining community involvement, so unfortunately the ones we have most likely won't be perfect, but what do you guys really want before they will be accepted? Tiger and yCh for example have played in tons of sea tournaments, and despite being barred from the majority of them still joining the ones they can (I.e. latest masters cup). With all that however its still not enough apparently to be classed as involved in the community, hence denied entry into seal. No worries, I don't have a problem with that, but suddenly were reaching situations where a) ladder games are meaningless b) joining tournaments is meaningless c) even making efforts to post in a non-native language on a forum and buying a sc2 account on a foreign server is being called into question.... Well - wtf do you want?

Suddenly they aren't part of the community until they play more ladder games here than 95% of other players, and even then it will be called into question because they are 'KR awesome players and 50000 games is easy for them?'

Sorry for the angry tone, but I'm really starting to get super frustrated with roadblock after roadblock being thrown up for people that try and integrate into our community then others wondering why our isolated SEA server doesn't start getting exposure on other servers.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	You have good intentions, but cool your head buddy, noone is attacking anyone.
	TAEdgE:	good points :) agree with ray though

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I suppose I'll bring up a few points since I was the one who originally bought up the topic of asking for balloon (and others) to play.

Firstly - intro thread. This was never a requirement for him to play. No one on sc2sea asked him to do it, no one in SPR asked him to do it, he was already deemed eligable before he made the post. It's simply being nice and trying to make friends in the sea community (hell ask anyone in the spr channel lately with balloon pestering everyone to introduce him to TA members, giving out his email for real id, etc). Balloon never asked me to make the thread asking for him to play.

The post had nothing but good intentions so let's not misrepresent it as some sinister attempt to hoodwink the community.

Secondly - eligibility. Yes I agree clear rules should be made, as most people here know I was pushing for them constantly before I even asked about some players specifically. At least now clear guidelines have been set down. One of the biggest issues I see though is the perception that 'ladder games mean nothing'. To begin with there are very few metrics involved in determining community involvement, so unfortunately the ones we have most likely won't be perfect, but what do you guys really want before they will be accepted? Tiger and yCh for example have played in tons of sea tournaments, and despite being barred from the majority of them still joining the ones they can (I.e. latest masters cup). With all that however its still not enough apparently to be classed as involved in the community, hence denied entry into seal. No worries, I don't have a problem with that, but suddenly were reaching situations where a) ladder games are meaningless b) joining tournaments is meaningless c) even making efforts to post in a non-native language on a forum and buying a sc2 account on a foreign server is being called into question.... Well - wtf do you want?

Suddenly they aren't part of the community until they play more ladder games here than 95% of other players, and even then it will be called into question because they are 'KR awesome players and 50000 games is easy for them?'

Sorry for the angry tone, but I'm really starting to get super frustrated with roadblock after roadblock being thrown up for people that try and integrate into our community then others wondering why our isolated SEA server doesn't start getting exposure on other servers.

I have no idea why this thread exists. I thought it was already decided by admins that 100 games was fine.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Petraeus

I have no idea why this thread exists. I thought it was already decided by admins that 100 games was fine.

Just because admins said so doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. I am well aware that a large proportion of the community does not agree with the "100 games" means your an active SEA player rule. I've played 100 games in less than 24 hours before.

Also, afaik, the 100 games rule was created for Eddie's Master Cup. I did not see a clear carry over from this to the SEACL. The only ruling in the SEACL writes that "Foreginers are not allowed to attend - unless admin gives special permision" - Not exact words but pretty much this.

Clarity is needed, and discussion is good way to find clarity. Don't you enjoy a good discussion anyway? It's not like anyone is being rude or anything

Quick Comments

	Apth:	There should always be discussion.
	Zanderax:	One game ever 14 minutes with no breaks. 100 in a day :D

[nGenLight]

Peleus: Read my post carefully before you decided I am misrepresenting his post as some sinister attempt to hoodwink the community. You are infact, misrepresenting my intention - I do not want to sabotage Balloon in anyways (I am most welcoming of better players in our server), I am here to encourage discussion into creating ground rules for situations such as this - The entire reason we are having these conversations are the lack of ground rules.

The 100 games rule was adopted for the Masters Cup. During the debate with MasterSPR, the 100 game to be "active player" rule was unanimously considered unacceptable and too easily achieved. If the 100 games rule is indeed the standard we wish to hold future foreigners entering SC2SEA events by, the debate that many of us had with MasterSPR now would seem extremely hypocritical as we were so against it, and now adopt it - catering to whoever we feel we wanted to.

If you can't keep a calm mind and a sense of clarity while discussing this, don't say anything at all - You end up sounding like an irrational prick who didn't bother reading what people had to say, and think everyone has an agenda or someshit.

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Read my post carefully before you decided I am misrepresenting his post as some sinister attempt to hoodwink the community. You are infact, misrepresenting my intention - I do not want to sabotage Balloon in anyways (I am most welcoming of better players in our server), I am here to encourage discussion into creating ground rules for situations such as this - The entire reason we are having these conversations are the lack of ground rules.

The 100 games rule was adopted for the Masters Cup. During the debate with MasterSPR, the 100 game to be "active player" rule was unanimously considered unacceptable and too easily achieved. If the 100 games rule is indeed the standard we wish to hold future foreigners entering SC2SEA events by, the debate that many of us had with MasterSPR now would seem extremely hypocritical as we were so against it, and now adopt it - catering to whoever we feel we wanted to.

If you can't keep a calm mind and a sense of clarity while discussing this, don't say anything at all - You end up sounding like an irrational prick who didn't bother reading what people had to say, and think everyone has an agenda or someshit.

Ok I stick with my first post then.

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

That post was directed at PeleusSPR, should have been more clear sorry.

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

Also, afaik, the 100 games rule was created for Eddie's Master Cup. I did not see a clear carry over from this to the SEACL. The only information in the SEACL writes that "Foreginers are not allowed to attend - unless admin gives special permision" - Not exact words but pretty much this.

To quote frogmite on the SEACL foreigner situation:
We've spoken with the admins concerning those three players,

We'll accept players IF they don't belong to a korean pro team and IF their activity on the SEA ladder is high enough (at least 100 games).

So to resume:

yCHSPR: NO (reason: part of a korean pro team http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KingKong)
TigerSPR: NO (reason: part of a korean pro team http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-k...ers/2842_Tiger )
BalloonSPR: OK BUT must play a minimum of 100 ladder games before playing in SEACL. He's not active enough on SEA at the moment.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Petraeus

To quote frogmite on the SEACL foreigner situation:
We've spoken with the admins concerning those three players,

We'll accept players IF they don't belong to a korean pro team and IF their activity on the SEA ladder is high enough (at least 100 games).

So to resume:

yCHSPR: NO (reason: part of a korean pro team http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/KingKong)
TigerSPR: NO (reason: part of a korean pro team http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-k...ers/2842_Tiger )
BalloonSPR: OK BUT must play a minimum of 100 ladder games before playing in SEACL. He's not active enough on SEA at the moment.

Fair enough, I've missed this - This only begs the question of whether this minimum of 100 ladder games will be the future standard (since many of us openly/unanimously disagreed with during the debate with MasterSPR).

My own opinion is that its too easily achieved.

Quick Comments

ROOTPetraeus:

exactly