[Satu]

Good Evening South-East Asia. Tonight, I do not wish to speak as a citizen of Australia, but instead as a player of SEA. As of recently, our community has had a new addition. However, many are speculating over the result of the entire community because of the addition of this new member. He has had victory after victory in our events, and many are of the opinion that this terror cannot be stopped. He is known only as...

ST

Ok, I lied, hes also known as yChSPR and gts

And also


fou
He isn't actually in fou anymore, so I hear. His SEA account is Master

And that really is what this thread is all about. Now that the hyping is done, heres all you need to know! (It was afterwards that I noticed how these were both movies, when I just googled their usernames... A sign, perhaps?)

The Facts:
- ST_KingKong has won the Masters cup twice, beating Moonglade in one, (http://challonge.com/mc5) and beating another korean progamer known on the SEA server as Master (Soulmanfou (http://challonge.com/mc6))

- He has won the community open twice in a row, #30 (http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=404) and #31 (http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=413).

- ST_KingKong is above the skill of all SEA players, which he proved from the start after beating moonglade, but has only further solidified that point ever since.

- Soulman isn't far behind ST_KingKong, taking second place in Masters Cup #6 and Community Open #31. If ST_KingKong wasn't winning the tournaments, it safe to say Soulman probably would be winning them instead.

- ST_KingKong played vs ogsMC. Check it out!

Why they should be allowed to compete
- Forces SEA players to play better in order to win tournaments, raising the competitive level
- The rules don't currently state they cannot compete
- Both joined a SEA clan known as team SPR and have some participation with the community

Why they shouldn't be allowed to compete
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.
- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.
- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do.

Community Opinions
Contribute to the discussion or make a good point and it'll turn up here, for all new readers to consider!
And then it turned out that the entire thread was made of win...

Read this before contributing
Please do not flame them in this thread, I want to have a civilized discussion about this issue. You might have also noticed the poll up the top, that Nirvana suggested I'd add. We may or may not change the rules of the community open based on the results of the poll and your opinions. At this point in time, that is the primary focus of this discussion, so although you can reference the masters cup, try to keep it as relevant as possible to this specific issue. We want to keep you guys happy, and if you want to continue to see korean progamers competing with our SEA players on an almost weekly basis, or don't want to, then tell us. Its hard to tell if there is a problem here or not, to be honest.

[TargA]

its not impossible to beat gts, actually its pretty possible dont know about the other guy tho.

[aLtShortizz]

I beat master on ladder

But yeh i remember when SixjaxMajor tried to play in one of our SEA tourney, he was refused. So i dont really know if the koreans shld be allowed in the CO as it is a SEA only tournament too? Besides, its incredibly hard to stop them from just using a SEA player's account so thats a pretty ''grey'' area.

[TAlkori]

If top players from sea want to start being competitive internationally, let them play.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Why they shouldn't be allowed to compete
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.
- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.
- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do.

That first point is essentially an extension of xenophobia.

The second point is especially rubbish. Should people who don't participate in the community be barred from playing in the open? Koreans contribute more to the community by playing than ANZ/SEA people who rock up the tourney but don't post on forums, because the replays they leave behind give us a benchmark that we can all learn from.

The dedication and free time argument is a bit of a cop-out as well, because it simply collapses when Australia has plenty of people who earn money from streaming, coaching and have sponsorships. Those players should still be aiming to test their skills against the Koreans.

Plus, many SEA players ladder on Korea anyway.

What are we scared of? Losing? In a free tournament with minuscule prizes?

Harden the **** up.

Quick Comments

	Fourby:	<3
	Eldrid:	+1
	dazaris:	+2
	NDG.Stitch:	definitely agree with the second and third point! nobody improves without a challenge!

[SC2MKP]

i guess its a good thing that they are joining tournaments in our servers, since it will raise up the level of our players.
in addition, having higher level players joining SEA tournies shows that SEA server is not forgotten and seeing that more and more Koreans are playing here, SEA surely will become a powerhouse soon enough.

Cons:
like zergtastic said,
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.( while this may be true, it is possible for SEA players to reach that standard. for example, china is a powerhouse for many sports, and u r a total noob at... lets take badminton. yes it is obvious at the beginning there is a huge skill gap. but, after training with them i believe that you can be able to reach their standard of play )

- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.( that is one thing to worry about, but, to be honest, SEA isnt really that strong as a whole and if you are joining tournies here just for the prize, then i suggest that you can join local Lan tournaments instead.)

- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do ( while that is true, SEA has many talented players, and many of them cant dedicate alot of time to practice. so if you cant dedicate time to practice, why do you expect to win the tournies in the 1st place? life is like this, dedication will play a factor in everything )

now for the PROs
- Forces SEA players to play better in order to win tournaments, raising the competitive level(this is the main reason why tournaments are held. to gauge your level and raise it up a notch. it would be stupid if you were to play with yourself all day long and there's no challenge.
lets give an example again, you are in school, in a maths class, and your teacher comes in and says "alright class, i shall give you a question to do. you have 1 hr. what is 1+1? " if i was a student there, i will be like WTF? is the teacher mad? thats what life is, challenges. why do you play starcraft? its challenging, makes you use your brain. why not play games like match the colors? because, its easy for us now.)

- The rules don't currently state they cannot compete( <- this. cannot be argued)

- Both joined a SEA clan known as team SPR and have some participation with the community(actually, this really doesnt matter, as when you join tournaments or competitions, the main point is to have fun and learn. not if you have contributed a crap ton of things or if you are in a clan~)

so at the end of the day, koreans comming here to play in SEA tournaments are a good thing in my honest opinion. like the case of sixjax major, he was denied of playing cause the rules have stated that only people living in SEA region are able to play. do u see any koreans playing in it? NO. so if you guys dont want koreans to play in SEA tournaments then just state it in the rules and i am sure they will understand.

sorry for the long post, just writing down my thoughts

[Daboo]

I think it's okay for them to participate. The sixjax major problem was something similar, but major who is probably at a higher level than these guys was signing up mainly (only?) for the tournament, just to get the cash. OP states that these guys actually own sea accounts and are part of a SEA clan (that clans is mainly koreans expats right?), and hence are actually a proper part of the community, they ladder regularly (ychspr is gm?)

Also how do we define community participation? Most pros in the west dont really participate in the community(posting in forums,replays, podcasts etc) but participate in the tourneys.

Besides raising the bar a bit might be good, it gives you something to aim for, these guys might be very good, but we know they are very low level korean pros(no disrespect), and some people have mentioned that they have beaten them on the ladder, hence this gives our to pros something achievable but challenging, and thereby them prepares them for higher levels of play.

[Satu]

On the topic of their participation with the community being irrelevant, I was just trying to politely look at if they are just coming to SEA to take our money and go, or if they are interested at all in our community. There is a pretty big difference between the two, and tbh I don't know which side of the line they sit. It affects how they are seen by members of the community, and its fair to make a statement that its unfair because they just come over to SEA to take our money and go.

Kinda hard to say it politely though, so not surprised that it got criticised a bit.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

well said. yea del asked me earlier too about not letting krs play. best to let the community decide hence this poll. so vote!

[Estancia]

Don't forget that there are noob koreans like me

[Cyanide]

I think you have to give them the benefit of the doubt no matter what. The prizes are small, and as full time pro-gamers, I think they are just trying to get whatever they can get their hands on?

Most players on SEA have a real job. If SEA wants to step up and keep the money, players just have to train harder (whether or not to the same level as the Koreans, is another matter all together). That said, it would definitely raise the standards here imo.

If you think about it, it's really no different from NASL or MLG having more Koreans. The goal, is to ultimately raise the bar in the respective leagues. I guess the problem with SEA is that our standards are not as high (more likely because we don't have many full-time pro-gamers).

Just my humble 2 cents.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Meatex]

I think more than letting them play we should encourage more to play on SEA
Give them reasons to participate in the community beyond tournaments

Perhaps have a minimum games played to be eligible for tournaments if you reside outside of a SEA country?

Also I casted Mafia taking a good game off of KingKong I believe so its not impossible (and Rossi?)

[Maynarde]

As a happy donater to the CO prize pool, I would LOVE to see my cash go to a SEA resident as I got nothin but love for our awesome community.

I however voted to let Korean pros play in the open. Why is that? Personally, when fronted with a challenge I'm not the type of person to complain about the size of the obstacle but would rather train to overcome it. I like to think the presence of Korean pro gamers in our community tournaments will not cause people to stop participating (it's free to participate in after all) but rather give the SEA residents a push to aim for an even higher elite level to go toe to toe with the best in the world. The satisfaction of taking a tournament from a fOu or ST player would be truly amazing

With that logic, I'll continue to donate time AND money to the community with the hope that the CO and SEA's greatest nerd killers will only get better and better

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Fourby:	exactly, im with you here

[Eddie]

In regards to the Masters Cup i have the following rule:

International/non SEA players are welcome, but they must have shown they are active on the SEA ladder, eg. ST.KingKong (yChSPR/gts), SoulmanfOu (Master), Slayers_Dragon.

Getting 'better' players coming to consistently play or train on SEA is a good thing imo. Can only help make everyone better players as a result.

It's different than someone borrowing an account, or 'smurfing' just for the prizes.

Also i'm introducing a new rule for the Masters Cups, that if you are lucky enough to win 2 in a row, you must sit the 3rd one out to spread the wealth around a bit.

ST KingKong is a really good player, but certainly beatable. His Masters Cup games against Glade + YoonYJ were great to watch, and pretty close contests.

No offence to SoulmanFou/Master and his last opponents, but he didn't exactly have the hardest path of SEA's best to play in the last Masters Cup, and we were missing quite a few Sydney players and MoonGlade.

The new win 2 in a row rule would also apply to top players such as MoonGlade, YoonYJ, TADeth, NeoRedArchon, etc, all of whom (and other top SEA players) are quite capable of beating the Koreans mentioned above, and themselves gaining improvement from playing them more.

Perhaps such a rule could be the way to go with Community Opens too...

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAEdgE:

[ToRPandarine]

This is a lowly Silver player talking, so mind you, I might seem a bit dumb in what I'm about to say.

I agree having the foreign players in the competition as I am sure it will improve our gameplay. Hell, we might even pick up a trick or two. Any form of higher level play is good. It makes us wish to be equally good or better.

However, players from BSG who enter to the CO or any other open SEA tournament may actually find this demoralising when they find out their current or next possible opponent are these powerhouses. Yes, you can argue we can still beat them if we try hard enough. Then again, if we do beat them, what were we doing in BSG in the first place? ;P

The rules are just guidelines. What we do with them counts. So, if the rules doesn't say naught about them being unable to compete just cause they're foreign, I say we leave it be.

The fact that foreigners have joined a SEA clan means nothing cause all clans have people from other places despite the clan's origin.

To achieve the level of play they are at is possible. As most would say, "Practice and Experience." Achieving this level of play some time in the future is better than never. We don't have to go all out yet.

Now, as Zergtastic has said, their community interaction is irrelevant. However, the idea of foreigners waltzing in and handing our asses to us AND then leaving with money is not a pleasant idea. Infact, this looks to me more like a call out to us saying, "You are like small fry. I will beat you and then take your money." Now, who the @#$% likes that?

The idea of having a 2 win rule is appealing because it would allow others a shot at glory. However, if we do the math, that just means we have 1 other winner every month assuming that someone else wins 2 times in a row then wins again the week after.

My true opinions? I am actually shaking in fear and wailing despair at the idea of foreigners who are a level above are playing. If you can't beat the current members of the community, what chance do you have of beating them? Deep down, I relish the challenge. In my head? I'm panicking and losing my game.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[mGMUSE]

they are not unbeatable. the top players on SEA are more than evenly matched with them.

and it's good for them to join so the top sea players dont have an easy win everytime :P

[Dox]

Originally Posted by Shortizz

I beat master on ladder

But yeh i remember when SixjaxMajor tried to play in one of our SEA tourney, he was refused. So i dont really know if the koreans shld be allowed in the CO as it is a SEA only tournament too? Besides, its incredibly hard to stop them from just using a SEA player's account so thats a pretty ''grey'' area.

I don't think people should be bringing up the SixJax.MajOr scenario because it technically has nothing to do with SC2SEA. It was a unilateral decision made exclusively by me as a result for entirely different reasons.

As for the Koreans, I'm very happy to see them participating in our events/community, and I'm even happier to see our own players strive and succeed to beat them. It's one of those underdog stories you just love watching unfold. "Who can beat the mighty Koreans this time?"

How many people do we have playing on the TW/KR server now? If there were some minor tournaments hosted on the KR server and you wanted to participate, I'm sure you'd be very offended if you were refused after you started winning "too much."

[matthras]

ThePandarine has pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to my personal thoughts.

It's a little selfish on my behalf, but I do feel that Koreans being in our tournaments will put a minority of us in the lower levels off participating in tournaments here on SC2SEA. As someone who doesn't have much time to play, but enjoys the community and participating in tournaments when I can, having someone relatively unknown waltz in and take first place does feel like a sore thumb, or just coming up against the guy first round, and knowing that you'll be knocked out first round, is incredibly demoralising.

If we got to know these people/they interacted a little within the community I honestly wouldn't be so sour about it.

However, it's only fair not to bar them from tournaments that they can already participate in. That much is fair, in my opinion. The tournaments we have now are as fine as it is, especially with Eddie's rules for the Master's Cup. I feel like this discussion would be more appropriate for future regular community tournaments that they can potentially participate in.

[Benji]

These koreans are EXACTLY what SEA needs right now. They will force us to up our skill level to points where we can actually compete with NA/EU players. As for our events, I see LAN events being the most important, and they won't be present for these (and if they are, thats even more awesome).

Shutting them out of our events hurts SEA. If players are going to give up on trying to get better because they aren't winning all these tournies due to the Koreans, thats not a fault with the Koreans, thats a fault in the mentality of our players.

Quick Comments

	SC2MKP:	agreed...
	Nvdeth:	how does playing a korean who's messing around on sea ladder un-seriously maybe 1 in 20 games force players to up their skill level?
	deL:	Playing 1 in 30 games with guys who play 12hrs a day won't bring you up to their level ;(

[Unstable]

That is happening here, is what is happening everywhere else, if you want the community to actually GROW then you need to force competition, same way I have said for ages STOP LADDERING ONLY ON SEA, why? because of exactly this

Quick Comments

SC2MKP:

[Delraich]

If this goes ahead, would this "rule" be limited to Korean players? If yes, I think you will have this discussion again when players from other regions also want to join in. I think that if the scene is going to be more inclusive, then it needs to be done across the board and not in bits.