[nirvAnA]

Keep in mind that I believe no "special treatment" should be given to players depending on their starcraft 2 skill or who they know. the rules should apply to everyone equally. all other things equal, users with a history of bans / repeat offenders will face stiffer punishment than users with a clean track record.

the precedent for not allowing banned users participation in our tournaments was set when Zanooku was banned and he wanted to join a sc2sea tournament. many TAs were vehemently stating that his ban should be extended to all the tournaments we ran as well, that is a sentiment i agreed with and that is what happened. I believe it was the SEACL#1 or KOF where he wanted to enter his rLs team and he was denied participation much to the joy of the majority of people. I cannot suddenly reverse this precedent, the rules have to remain consistent and not vary depending on a starcraft players skill level.

Also note that if the ban on deth is lifted, Zanooku will be allowed to play in all SC2SEA touraments after next season as well as the rules have to apply uniformly across the board.

as for tguns comment, i believe one of the most famous high profile track runners was caught doping, the olympics didnt rename themselves. when eric cantona one of the best footballers playing in england at that time got banned for 9 months for karate kicking a fan, and it inadvertantly hurt man utd, the EPL did not rename itself from the "english premier league" just becaue he had being excluded and he was a premier player, one of if not the very best players in it at that time.
(this pargraph is not a comparsion of deth's actions, it is a comparison of renaming the competition because of a banned player)

[Dox]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Users banned from SC2SEA will not be allowed to participate in our official tournaments. The tournament bans would probably be lifted by next seasons SEAL # 3.

Does this mean deth can't compete? Even in the NA qualifiers?

[nirvAnA]

Yeap, I also talked to him about it two days ago.

[Dox]

Bummer.

[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Yeap, I also talked to him about it two days ago.

glad you've got someone impartial handling the ban

[nirvAnA]

I'm just going to ignore that bait.

Thanks system will update date/time accordingly

[iM tgun]

Do the qualifiers have to be on wed nights? x_x;

Edit: Did deth's ban get extended? I think excluding him from this tournament isn't right.

[nirvAnA]

The bans were supposed to be for one SEAL. Had deth not made that defamatory / slanderous thread he would be able to play in this and might have been unbaned now. That is why Pinder who had the same ban had his lifted early and he isn't banned from anything else, because although he was very unhappy with the decision he didn't make a thread full of baseleess accusations to get back at me. And i certaintly don't want to encourage behaviour like that.

The accusations there are very defamtory and if i were some else, say SlayerS_Jessica there would be no doubt legal action taken. I've talked to deth and I told him he should be able to play in the next SEAL. Im quite sure 95% of people in my position would life ban him after doing something like that but i'm giving him that courtesy.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

The bans were suposed to be for one SEAL. Had deth not made that defamatory / slanderous thread he would be able to play in this and might have been unbaned now. That is why Pinder who had the same ban had his lifted early and he isn't banned from anything else, because although he was very unhappy with the decision he didn't make a thread full of baseleess accusations to get back at me. And i certaintly don't want to encourage behaviour like that.

The accusations there are very defamtory and if i were some else, say SlayerS_Jessica there would be no doubt legal action taken. I've talked to deth and I told him he should be able to play in the next SEAL. Im quite sure 95% of people in my position would life ban him after doing something like that but i'm giving him that courtesy.

To be fair the only reason I didn't dispute the tournament ban is because at the time I never planned on taking sc2 seriously anyway. Had i cared more at the time I probably would've taken the same route and supported deth's attempts to get un-banned from the tournament.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

The bans were supposed to be for one SEAL. Had deth not made that defamatory / slanderous thread he would be able to play in this and might have been unbaned now. That is why Pinder who had the same ban had his lifted early and he isn't banned from anything else, because although he was very unhappy with the decision he didn't make a thread full of baseleess accusations to get back at me. And i certaintly don't want to encourage behaviour like that.

The accusations there are very defamtory and if i were some else, say SlayerS_Jessica there would be no doubt legal action taken. I've talked to deth and I told him he should be able to play in the next SEAL. Im quite sure 95% of people in my position would life ban him after doing something like that but i'm giving him that courtesy.

I understand your reasoning: but I still disagree with banning him from the SEAL. You already banned him (and subsequently hurt the TA team) from the SEACL - At least, you can't really call it a "SEA Star League" when you're prohibiting one of the top terrans from competing at all. At least rebrand it to the sc2sea league. He served his ban for the SEACL (which was 10 weeks or so?) -- there have been people who have done worse things and less punishment.

[TAriiChard]

What do the tournament admins think about this? I'd love to hear their opinions.

[simon]

surely a leader as wise and sage as yourself would know of such a thing as false equivalencies? to compare zanooku and deth seems foolish to say the least. the less i say about your cantona analogy the better. As for slayers jessica? if you were to take her MO you would become a laughing stock just as she has on certain issues. The rules should be as flexible as your gracious highness sees fit. Every case is unique in its nuance and a man of your intellect should be able to decipher and judge as he sees fit. A hardline approach does not do your reputation justice my liege.

Your humble forum serf, simon

Quick Comments

Dox:

this is beautiful

[TAScarecrow]

@ Nirv: likening your issues with deth to doping charges and physically assaulting a spectator is just retarded -.-

It seems like this is just a personal vendetta to punish deth. Banning him from CO's (funded by donations) and SEA wide (and named) tourneys based on your questionable/emotional modding of a website. How does the sponsor feel about you banning top players based on personal prejudice? My initial comment wasn't bait, it was just a comment on how the situation is and has been handled. You might be blind to it but you're far from impartial in this. It'd be akin to roz deciding on a benji ban.

All I see from the continued ban, even after the frogmite cup, is continued pettiness to get back at deth and TA over some online bm and differences of opinion.

[Dox]

I already made my statement when deth was initially banned from tournaments the first time, but for sake of clarity, I'm gonna go ahead and echo Scarecrow's sentiments above.

I know, I know - setting bold precedents and all that, but it's getting silly now. The last time we spoke about it, you said, "He's staying banned for this Clan League, but he'll be allowed to compete in the next one." But now there's this as well.

You guys don't get along and that's fine. It's not an anomaly. You'll never find a community or workplace anywhere on the planet where everyone likes eachother. Personalities clash every day but people learn to put it aside and move on. This is really getting exhausting.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I still think a forum offense resulting in a tournament ban is tremendously out of line, as there are players who are trying to more or less make a living out of this game. Choosing to disagree with the wrong person on the wrong day shouldn't have such a significant impact on that. Benji can't tolerate me, but you don't see me banning Xeria players from my events just to get back at him.

EDIT2: I also agree that the offenses you compared with are a bit silly. deth didn't cheat anyone and he didn't injure anyone. He disagreed with you, got banned, apologised, got banned again, vented on TL and now we're here.

[NvPinder]

I'd just like to echo the sentiments that it's literally nothing but a personally vendetta against deth by you Bryan that's keeping him from playing in this tournament. Nothing he has done has (in both my opinion, and I think you'll find the VAST majority, including fellow admins who I am in no way associated with but have echo'd this in their actions/tournament rules) warranted the rulings you have given out, continue to change, and even now still cling to.

Maybe you're just clinging to this because you feel backing down at this point would make you appear weak in the eyes of the community of something, but it actually shows a LOT of strength of character to overrule your own decisions when you realize you're in the wrong, and shows a lot of weakness from you to stick to the ridiculous punishment out of spite/fear of appearing weak.

[nirvAnA]

The one thing people have to get clear is deth isn't being punished out of personal prejudice or differences. That is ridiculously petty and people will never be banned because "i dont like them" or have a "personality clash" thats just absurd to hear. People get banned for the actions they have done or the rules they have broken. Im also really tired of all this TA bias accusations. If anything i have been exceptionally patient and tolerant and I am totally fine with many members of TA for e.g TAXavi and TAHackdz help out the site out and i talk to them regularly. TAChadmann, TAdeL and TAEdgE have their own custom avatars and are admins for leagues and i talk to them even more. As long as you hold on to that mindset that I have something against you / TA you're going to intepret every admin decision made as a biased one and never on its own merit.

• Do i want people abusing mods/admins and gettiing away with it?
• Do i want feedback threads and format discussion threads to devolve into petty name calling and insults because people dont like each other or dont put in the effort to discuss things constructively?
• Do i want people to stop volunteering as admins because they see the way we are treated and it discourages them?
• Who is going to want to run tournaments?
• If there are no tournaments whats going to happen to the scene / sc2sea?
• If there wasnt an sc2sea where would our community be today?
• What must be done to stop the community from reaching the level of the CS community?

The site does not just magically gel and work on its own devoid of any system and rules. Look at the state of many sites and compare the community to ours. Thats why certain rules are in place to protect the site from becoming like them and thats why decisons are made not because i dont like XXX or XXX is from that YYY clan and i dont like that clan. These accusastions are very insulting to hear time and time again where people cannot consider the possibility that perhaps, just perhaps thats a chance the offending person did something that warranted that ban. This is something bakainu deals with, with nearly every single infraction he hands out. People accuse him of being bias, selectively targetting people when he has absolutely no affiliation or biasness as well. It just becomes convenient to discredit any decision made due to who is involved.

If I was truly bias deth will just be life banned from all tournaments as simple as that but hey, I had only said SEACL. Even after that slander i am STILL consideringn letting him play in next seasons SEACL which i am starting to think is a mistake, because if i was more strict in my modding the first place aka banning indefinetely after 2-3 bans rather than giving people 7 chances, these problems would never have happened in the first place.

There are serveral others on this site who have said really harsh stuff to me as well but hey, after they apologised sincerely and i accepted it they were welcomed back on the site and have turned over a new leaf and its one of the best things to see when a person has changed for the better. That is why i have been exceptionally lenient, i am always hoping for people to make that change. I told zan to make new forums accounts and not tell me about it and i woudlnt actively check and i told the same to deth. sometimes it happens, sometimes it just doesnt.

How can you say I have held on to personal vedettas or whatever, if i was that type of person I never would have accept those apologies or welcomed them back on the site or give people countless chances?? Neither did i block/ignore deth, something which im very sure a person with a personal vendetta will do. In fact we just talked on msn 2 days ago. I disapprove of his actions yes, but i put that down to him being young and i dont hold it personally against him. He has an awesome gf and the support of all his friends so there must be a great part of him im not seeing, but still that doesnt cancel out what he has done.

That doping /cantona thing was not meant at all to be compared to deths actions. That was just in reponse to tgun's comment on how organizations should change their name because of banned players.

If deth had took the ban without making a slanderous post to get back at me he would have been allowed to play in this one just as pinder is allowed too. And im sure if pinder cared more about SC2 back then and made a post too, it would not have veered away from the crux of the issue. It would be a well presented agrument on the distinction between tournament / forums bans with proper reasoning and examples, not a full on personal attack.

To subject both players who have reacted very differently would be sending the message that, hey its ok just abuse the hell out of the admin with anything u can think of, nothing is going to happen to you! Have a problem with the format of a tournament? Make a personal attack on the admin! Get your friends to back you up! Dont worry hes still going to run the tournamenet for you because youre a "pro-gamer" and its ur god given right!

deth never apologised, it was disguised as an apology, but it never was one. Anyone from a neutral perspective will be able to see that. His apology to fourby recently was a real and sincere one so he was perfectly capable of making something like that if he wanted to. a real apology would have been directed to me personally and privately first, not made on a forum circumventing the ban with the help of a friend "for show".

If his vent on TL was just about the tournament ban and dicussing it then his ban would not have been further extended, but he chose to turn it into a huge attack full of chat transcripts lifted out of context and cut mid sentence to portray me in the most negative light possible. He was fully aware that the ban would not have been lifted, and posting the thread would end up hurting the sea community as a whole when people out side of the community saw the thread. The intent of that post was to malign and get back at me and nothing more.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

That doping /cantona thing was not meant at all to be compared to deths actions. That was just in reponse to tgun's comment on how organizations should change their name because of banned players.

(didn't quote the whole thing cause whoa, walls of text everywhere.)

Comparing ourselves to the olympics, or any big organisation (like the EPL) is completely wrong. What deth did wasn't anything like doping, or assault. He abused you and called your character in-to question. My point is that the initial ban was for the SEACL (as far as I know) and has now been extended to the SEASL (and, as you said, potentially the next SEACL). He was already banned for longer than two months (maybe even >3?), and you think this isn't punishment enough?

If you seriously think that's not enough punishment, for someone who's trying to play the game at the top level to essentially be exiled from their regions community for three months, then nothing I can say will change your decision. I don't think it's a personal vendetta from you; I don't think you're capable of that. I think that you are, however, blowing things way out of proportion.

[dippa]

there's another comparison that the "doping" would bring up:

the people who make the decisions about banning players are removed from those that test players for doping.

there isn't that kind of accountability in this instance - especially since the person making the decisions is also a competitor whose chances could be adversely affected in some scenarios - so it's probably better to have not brought it up at all.

[TAScarecrow]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Anyone from a neutral perspective will be able to see that.

If you truly think there isn't a conflict of interest in you deciding on deth's ban length I really don't know what to say (i'll admit I have bias, I wish you would too). Coupled with the fact you think you've been lenient in your bans makes it impossible to reach a compromise as you feel you don't have to budge an inch. Banning a pro player from a tournament over mildly offensive forum posts is overzealous modding imo. You act like you get the final say on who gets to play in the SEA scene. Yes you own a community website, and you put alot of work into the scene but if you put this up before the community (where most of the money and hours come from) instead of having it in this hidden thread I'm sure most will support his return. Comparing deth to zanooku is hardly fair as a justification for ban lengths. Zanooku was a racist, abusive troll that almost everyone in the community loathed. Deth on the other hand just insulted you. It's not a popularity contest, it's just surely an impartial judge can see the difference between deth and ziek and ban accordingly. Again if you'd accepted deth's apology (sincere or otherwise) we wouldn't be in this situation. If you want to be always pulling the mature/lenient/moral high ground card then actually back it up.

Banning deth doesn't save us from being the CS scene. Our community does that on its own. I don't get why you're so determined to punish him? You won't 'reform' him, I'm sure SC2SEA will survive his presence and he'll still hate you just as much after returning.

edit: less aggressive

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by TAScarecrow

If you truly think your perspective is neutral in this you're a lost cause. That you think you've been lenient in your bans just makes it worse. Banning a pro player from a tournament over mildly offensive forum posts is just way over the top and terrible modding. You act like you own the SEA scene when all you do is own a website (your actual jurisdiction). Again if you'd accepted the apology (sincere or otherwise) we wouldn't be in this situation. If you want to be always pulling the mature/lenient/moral high ground then actually do it.

Banning deth doesn't save us from being the CS scene. Our community does that on its own, with or without your divine presence. I don't get why you're so determined to punish him. You won't 'reform' him, I'm sure SC2SEA will survive his presence and he'll still hate you just as much after returning.

I think your post is a bit to.. aggressive? I'm not sure how to phrase it. Without Nirvana, the sea scene honestly wouldn't be what it is today. This site is a large part of the scene, as I'm sure you know that almost all of the tournaments that run will be either echo'd on this site, or ran directly from here. I do agree that he definitely isn't neutral in this situation, however.

Quick Comments

breadfan: