[asdfSchnitzel]

Theory-Crafting Thread!

This is a thread to share your ideas for CRAZY builds that you've thought of, but haven't decided of how to implement them. Hopefully this helps to create new meta-gaming of meta-games and generally makes the game more exciting!

+ [Just a general note] +

I may or may not continue to update the OP with new build ideas. If I don't, just read through the pages!

+ [Protoss] +

+ [ToRSchnitzel's 2 Base Double Robo Immortal Allin:] +

This build is designed to punish zergs going the roach/ling max off 3 bases, without scouting properly.

Pros	Cons	Good Against	Bad Against
Heavy DPS and hard to stop with conventional builds	Slow and easy to stop if scouted early	Roach/Ling Max off 3 Bases	Most other zerg builds off 3 bases

+ [cRFenner's Dt Phoenix Play (PvZ)] +

I had an idea for a build in PvZ but I don't play Protoss.

The idea is that you open fast expand (nex first or ffe) then go super fast DTs to keep 3 hatching Zerg players contained/do damage. The DTs need to be controlled well since you can't lose them, the aerg should only really have spores for detection at this point as it will hit before standard lair timings so with good control you shouldn't lose them. Then go straight into phoenix production and control the map with DTs and phoenix. Taking a 3rd behind this and planning to defend with DTs/zealot, killing overseers that push out with the army with your phoenix so that the DTs can defend. Then eventually going into Archon Chargelot - a really strong unit comp.

This build would require extremely good unit control as the DTs are so valuable. Would also need really good map control with the phoenix as you need to start working on those overseers as soon as they start to push out with their roach ling to deny your third.

+ [Fridgotaur's Immortal Phoenix Play] +

+ [General Idea] +

The Phoenix Immortal push centres itself around reducing the damage dealt by an opposing army through the tanky-ness of immortals with +1 shields benefiting from their passive, and the lifting abilities of the phoenix.
The effectiveness of this composition is derived from the attack priority of enemy ground forces onto friendly ground units (in this case the +1 shielded immortals), instead of the low HP air units. Through the removal of DPS of the enemy force, and the displacement of individual units by the Phoenix, a mineral dump of zealots is an effective way to fill the meat of the composition, and will provide the majority of ground damage.

In terms of build order and timing, the establishment of 4 early gas is essential to produce the required amount of Robotics and Stargate units simultaneously, and as such is generally done from a 1 gateway expansion build, or in PvZ a forge fast expand. Against Zerg, transitioning first into a stargate for initial Phoenix play is advised to deny map control and creep spread from queens and overlords, whilst against Terran and Protoss earlier observers and immortals will be key to holding pressure, and thus will require a robotics facility first.

The transitions from this build are generally quite clear, with an easy transition into mid game Colossus play from 3 bases, or a switch to a charge Zealot + Archon mix with shield upgrades also a viable option.

+ [Vs P/T] +

Vs P,T:

9 pylon
13 gateway
14 assimilator (1)
17 cybernetics core
@100% cyber core: warp gate + stalker (cut zealot for earlier nexus)
26 stalker
30 nexus
33 cut probes
33 forge + robo + pylon (resume probes)
~36 assimilator (2,3,4)
~38 gateway (2,3)
@100% forge: +1 Shield
@100% robotics facility: observer
@100% observer: immortal production, stargate
@50% +1 Shield: twilight council

+ [Vs Z] +

Vs Z

9 pylon
18 nexus
18 forge
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 cannon
20 assimilators (1,2,3)
@100% gateway: cybernetics core
@100% forge: +1 shields
@100 minerals: zealot
@100%core: warp gate + sentry
~36 stargate + assmilator (4)
~38 gateways (2,3)
~42 robotics facility
@50% +1 Shield: twilight council

Army control is paramount to success with this composition. Phoenix must be used to pick off exposed air targets such as medivacs and overlords, and also to pick up high DPS units from the opponent's army. When engaging with your entire army, placement of the phoenix directly above, or slightly behind the immortals will initially avoid any anti air targeting fire. It is important to also babysit the phoenix during engagements, as target firing from your opponent can drop them quickly, but with good micro, this can serve as a benefit to further decrease the damage being inflicted to the bulk of the ground force.

+ [Zerg] +

+ [Savior's 7 Pool] +

So I've adapted a ZvP build fron CatZ which is basically a 7 pool opening, transitioning into just pure macro play. It's somewhat weak against gateway expands but if you play it correctly you come out slightly behind, and can hold the toss 4gate with ease.

The general premise is 7 pool, 9 double extractor trick, 6 lings, 12 overlord, 15 queen, 17-18 ovie 18 hatch, and drone to 2 base saturation basically depending on what you scout/if toss expands.

I think the main reason it works for me is that I've done it a lot and toss rarely react correctly, therefore allowing me to gain a lead, but i've been playing around with several follow ups to get into midgame and the most successful one is 2 gas banelings with lair and then bane speed. It's kind of reliant of toss undermaking sentries or being not amazing with forcefields BUT, it's fun to do and is something new to the stephano style zvp which is becoming somewhat stagnant.

This works at like top gm sea ect ect. the best part is the rage it induces.

+ [Terran] +

No builds at this point

+ [Another general note] +

Wow, that's the most formatting I've ever used, hopefully i did it right :/ If I didn't would an admin be able to either fix it, or tell me how to fix it

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

i like this idea

[ProAnnn]

A build that can beat zergs

[Fenner]

I had an idea for a build in PvZ but I don't play Protoss.

The idea is that you open fast expand (nex first or ffe) then go super fast DTs to keep 3 hatching Zerg players contained/do damage. The DTs need to be controlled well since you can't lose them, the aerg should only really have spores for detection at this point as it will hit before standard lair timings so with good control you shouldn't lose them. Then go straight into phoenix production and control the map with DTs and phoenix. Taking a 3rd behind this and planning to defend with DTs/zealot, killing overseers that push out with the army with your phoenix so that the DTs can defend. Then eventually going into Archon Chargelot - a really strong unit comp.

This build would require extremely good unit control as the DTs are so valuable. Would also need really good map control with the phoenix as you need to start working on those overseers as soon as they start to push out with their roach ling to deny your third.

All theory ^

[pXLight]

Originally Posted by cRfenner

I had an idea for a build in PvZ but I don't play Protoss.

The idea is that you open fast expand (nex first or ffe) then go super fast DTs to keep 3 hatching Zerg players contained/do damage. The DTs need to be controlled well since you can't lose them, the aerg should only really have spores for detection at this point as it will hit before standard lair timings so with good control you shouldn't lose them. Then go straight into phoenix production and control the map with DTs and phoenix. Taking a 3rd behind this and planning to defend with DTs/zealot, killing overseers that push out with the army with your phoenix so that the DTs can defend. Then eventually going into Archon Chargelot - a really strong unit comp.

This build would require extremely good unit control as the DTs are so valuable. Would also need really good map control with the phoenix as you need to start working on those overseers as soon as they start to push out with their roach ling to deny your third.

All theory ^

Sounds like Bisu's BW PvZ pseudo style

[FSNiseH]

The problem I see with fenners idea is that as soon as the zerg sees your extremely quick DT's and phoenix after wards, they just mass roach and a-move into your base before you have a decent army. Also, fenner, that reminds me of the Brood war DT/Corsair strat.

[ROOTPetraeus]

lmao fenner so many protoss' already do that

[FSNiseH]

Pet I think he means faster than usual.

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by IrisPetraeus

lmao fenner so many protoss' already do that

ive never seen a protoss do that ever.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by cRfenner

I had an idea for a build in PvZ but I don't play Protoss.

The idea is that you open fast expand (nex first or ffe) then go super fast DTs to keep 3 hatching Zerg players contained/do damage. The DTs need to be controlled well since you can't lose them, the aerg should only really have spores for detection at this point as it will hit before standard lair timings so with good control you shouldn't lose them. Then go straight into phoenix production and control the map with DTs and phoenix. Taking a 3rd behind this and planning to defend with DTs/zealot, killing overseers that push out with the army with your phoenix so that the DTs can defend. Then eventually going into Archon Chargelot - a really strong unit comp.

This build would require extremely good unit control as the DTs are so valuable. Would also need really good map control with the phoenix as you need to start working on those overseers as soon as they start to push out with their roach ling to deny your third.

All theory ^

Its good theory cept that phoenix take forever to kill overseers, just make 4 and traverse across the map. Someone do this against rev and won 1 game i heard ~

[Fenner]

Originally Posted by IrisPetraeus

lmao fenner so many protoss' already do that

no one has ever done it to me buddy

[QEDMinotaur]

Fridgotaur's 2 base Zealot Phoenix Immortal with + Shields - PvX

DISCLAIMER: This is intended as a BoX build, not as standard ladder play.

+ [Theoretic principals] +

The Phoenix Immortal push centres itself around reducing the damage dealt by an opposing army through the tanky-ness of immortals with +1 shields benefiting from their passive, and the lifting abilities of the phoenix.
The effectiveness of this composition is derived from the attack priority of enemy ground forces onto friendly ground units (in this case the +1 shielded immortals), instead of the low HP air units. Through the removal of DPS of the enemy force, and the displacement of individual units by the Phoenix, a mineral dump of zealots is an effective way to fill the meat of the composition, and will provide the majority of ground damage.

In terms of build order and timing, the establishment of 4 early gas is essential to produce the required amount of Robotics and Stargate units simultaneously, and as such is generally done from a 1 gateway expansion build, or in PvZ a forge fast expand. Against Zerg, transitioning first into a stargate for initial Phoenix play is advised to deny map control and creep spread from queens and overlords, whilst against Terran and Protoss earlier observers and immortals will be key to holding pressure, and thus will require a robotics facility first.

The transitions from this build are generally quite clear, with an easy transition into mid game Colossus play from 3 bases, or a switch to a charge Zealot + Archon mix with shield upgrades also a viable option.

+ [Proposed Build Order] +

+ [Vs P,T] +

Vs P,T:

9 pylon
13 gateway
14 assimilator (1)
17 cybernetics core
@100% cyber core: warp gate + stalker (cut zealot for earlier nexus)
26 stalker
30 nexus
33 cut probes
33 forge + robo + pylon (resume probes)
~36 assimilator (2,3,4)
~38 gateway (2,3)
@100% forge: +1 Shield
@100% robotics facility: observer
@100% observer: immortal production, stargate
@50% +1 Shield: twilight council

+ [Vs Z] +

Vs Z

9 pylon
18 nexus
18 forge
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 cannon
20 assimilators (1,2,3)
@100% gateway: cybernetics core
@100% forge: +1 shields
@100 minerals: zealot
@100%core: warp gate + sentry
~36 stargate + assmilator (4)
~38 gateways (2,3)
~42 robotics facility
@50% +1 Shield: twilight council

+ [Additional Notes] +

Army control is paramount to success with this composition. Phoenix must be used to pick off exposed air targets such as medivacs and overlords, and also to pick up high DPS units from the opponent's army. When engaging with your entire army, placement of the phoenix directly above, or slightly behind the immortals will initially avoid any anti air targeting fire. It is important to also babysit the phoenix during engagements, as target firing from your opponent can drop them quickly, but with good micro, this can serve as a benefit to further decrease the damage being inflicted to the bulk of the ground force.

Good luck, and happy theory crafting!

[ROCCAT_Savior]

So I've adapted a ZvP build fron CatZ which is basically a 7 pool opening, transitioning into just pure macro play. It's somewhat weak against gateway expands but if you play it correctly you come out slightly behind, and can hold the toss 4gate with ease.

The general premise is 7 pool, 9 double extractor trick, 6 lings, 12 overlord, 15 queen, 17-18 ovie 18 hatch, and drone to 2 base saturation basically depending on what you scout/if toss expands.

I think the main reason it works for me is that I've done it a lot and toss rarely react correctly, therefore allowing me to gain a lead, but i've been playing around with several follow ups to get into midgame and the most successful one is 2 gas banelings with lair and then bane speed. It's kind of reliant of toss undermaking sentries or being not amazing with forcefields BUT, it's fun to do and is something new to the stephano style zvp which is becoming somewhat stagnant.

This works at like top gm sea ect ect. the best part is the rage it induces.

[QEDFridge]

Originally Posted by QEDMinotaur

Fridgotaurs 2 base Zealot Phoenix Immortal with + Shields - PvX

DISCLAIMER: This is intended as a BoX build, not as standard ladder play.

+ [Theoretic principals] +

The Phoenix Immortal push centres itself around reducing the damage dealt by an opposing army through the tanky-ness of immortals with +1 shields benefiting from their passive, and the lifting abilities of the phoenix.
The effectiveness of this composition is derived from the attack priority of enemy ground forces onto friendly ground units (in this case the +1 shielded immortals), instead of the low HP air units. Through the removal of DPS of the enemy force, and the displacement of individual units by the Phoenix, a mineral dump of zealots is an effective way to fill the meat of the composition, and will provide the majority of ground damage.

In terms of build order and timing, the establishment of 4 early gas is essential to produce the required amount of Robotics and Stargate units simultaneously, and as such is generally done from a 1 gateway expansion build, or in PvZ a forge fast expand. Against Zerg, transitioning first into a stargate for initial Phoenix play is advised to deny map control and creep spread from queens and overlords, whilst against Terran and Protoss earlier observers and immortals will be key to holding pressure, and thus will require a robotics facility first.

The transitions from this build are generally quite clear, with an easy transition into mid game Colossus play from 3 bases, or a switch to a charge Zealot + Archon mix with shield upgrades also a viable option.

+ [Proposed Build Order] +

+ [Vs P,T] +

Vs P,T:

9 pylon
13 gateway
14 assimilator (1)
17 cybernetics core
@100% cyber core: warp gate + stalker (cut zealot for earlier nexus)
26 stalker
30 nexus
33 cut probes
33 forge + robo + pylon (resume probes)
~36 assimilator (2,3,4)
~38 gateway (2,3)
@100% forge: +1 Shield
@100% robotics facility: observer
@100% observer: immortal production, stargate
@50% +1 Shield: twilight council

+ [Vs Z] +

Vs Z

9 pylon
18 nexus
18 forge
18 gateway
18 pylon
18 cannon
20 assimilators (1,2,3)
@100% gateway: cybernetics core
@100% forge: +1 shields
@100 minerals: zealot
@100%core: warp gate + sentry
~36 stargate + assmilator (4)
~38 gateways (2,3)
~42 robotics facility
@50% +1 Shield: twilight council

+ [Additional Notes] +

Army control is paramount to success with this composition. Phoenix must be used to pick off exposed air targets such as medivacs and overlords, and also to pick up high DPS units from the opponent's army. When engaging with your entire army, placement of the phoenix directly above, or slightly behind the immortals will initially avoid any anti air targeting fire. It is important to also babysit the phoenix during engagements, as target firing from your opponent can drop them quickly, but with good micro, this can serve as a benefit to further decrease the damage being inflicted to the bulk of the ground force.

Good luck, and happy theory crafting!

thats our build!!!!

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by QEDMinotaur

Fridgotaur's 2 base Zealot Phoenix Immortal with + Shields - PvX

I do something quite similar in pvp; open phix then expand and go into double robo immortals, then when you push out with like 4-6 immortals you lift up all his sentries (ff will own this push) and just a move up the ramp. Normally once they see you going phix they will get a lot more stalkers out. Similarly you can push out with 4-6 immortals and 2 no range collosus, mainly to crush ff and kill his zlot line

Quick Comments

QEDMinotaur:

thank's for your input! I saw elfi do something similar at RoG, so defs viable as a 1 base in pvp!

[AxSGRiM]

Hi guys. I've been having a great winrate with my current PvP DT expansion build that offers one of the fastest DT rushes possible but also an extremely fast expansion; similar to that of a Robo player.


You basically open the same way as a Triple Stalker build, but when you "should" build your stalker you instead build a zealot and the opponent will pull their probe out of your base before your "stalker" (which is a zealot) pops. As soon as it leaves, you drop down a twilight council and you add a 3rd gate later. Go up to 5 zealots and take an expansion while you push with the DT's and 5 zealots. It can outright kill Pheonix play, players who send their observers outside, gateway expansions & more. Even if the oponent has an observer, your expansion will most likely be the same time as his and you can work off twilight tech and fake zealot archon 2 base harass while taking a fast third and transitioning back to robo.

I will update with replays soon.