[dennistoo]

Mod Edit: Sorry dennis your thread was hijacked but it got derailed and became a FatHuntress vs Pinder epic epeen battle. The thread has been closed and the results of this BO5 GRUDGE MATCH will be posted shorty. With the winner claiming victory, and better understanding of starcraft and hence view on balance. So no more agurments in the fourms! Stay tuned for the winners interview and replays.


Look at GSL S2, the only toss (NEXGenius) advanced to RO8. GSL S1 winner was a Zerg and same goes to GSL1.

Day 1 of GSL S3 only have 7 toss qualified out of 27.

Something is wrong here?

[HuT]

Brotoss has been playing stupidly imo. They're definitely not UP, maybe early game vs T, but pro players are able to survive that period any still lose.

Some of their strategies have just been not executed properly.The race isn't broken, the users are.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Nick

Brotoss has been playing stupidly imo. They're definitely not UP, maybe early game vs T, but pro players are able to survive that period any still lose.

Some of their strategies have just been not executed properly.The race isn't broken, the users are.

Can you define stupidly?

[HuT]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

Can you define stupidly?

That guy who went FE against CheckPrime twice which was the funniest fail ever, and NEXGenius just played damn badly vs HopeTorture. Blink stalker rush? Nonono.

[Xeen]

When P makes mistakes, they tend to be more crippling. A single missed forcefield, or a poor engagement, or a misplaced cannon can instantly end the game for Protoss, and as a result Protoss players look far less consistent in the GSL.

You can't say 'oh, these players play stupid' without looking at why they're doing so - and that's that going straight macro against top T/Z players is clearly less favored than trying to catch them off guard with tech-heavy strategies or rushes.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by Xeen

When P makes mistakes, they tend to be more crippling. A single missed forcefield, or a poor engagement, or a misplaced cannon can instantly end the game for Protoss, and as a result Protoss players look far less consistent in the GSL.

This is true for every race in every matchup...

Honestly its not really worth worrying about, 100% every game you lose you could've won if you'd played better and there's no reason to blame anything on imbalance at this point.

[Torniquet]

I hear when you beat a high ranked Zerg as Protoss you only get like 5 points anyway. Confirm / Deny JP?

[Roz]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

This is true for every race in every matchup...

Honestly its not really worth worrying about, 100% every game you lose you could've won if you'd played better and there's no reason to blame anything on imbalance at this point.

It's not true for every race... here's a few examples:

1. Toss pushes a terran with 10 stalker , 10 zealot, 4 sentries, 2 immortals and wins the engagement with 4 stalker 2 zealots and 2 sentries left. You aren't going to kill the terran at all because when a few marauder marine comes out, u are gonna lose the rest of the stuff. Now on the other hand, if they terran pushed the toss and he had say 5 marauder 3 marines left, i kinda doubt the toss would be able to live.

2. This one is kinda simple... if a toss loses 70% of his probes, it's pretty much gg because their ability to reproduce their econ is slow. Whereas for a zerg, they just use all the larvaes to make drones and terrans just mule a few in the mean time.

Im not saying toss is underpowered and each race certainly do have their advantages and disadvantages, but i do agree that toss is rather unforgiving.

[Xeen]

To add what Roz is saying, the P army is pretty much built on units with speed 2.25 (sentry, colossus, immortal, zealot, etc) - while all races in a bad engagement will suffer, as P you often cannot retreat as the gas-heavy core of your army simply can't run. Miss a forcefield, or see reinforcements arrive, etc: the penalty is steep as P. You have to create engagements where you win decisively or more cost effective stuff will mop you up np (Roz's point 1), which means that P has a lot less margin for error.

I don't think it's coincidental that the players of an unforgiving race are appearing inconsistent in their play - small mechanical or tactical errors can really hit P hard.

[nirvAnA]

yea roz's post is great

one mis judgement or one failed attack and the game ends. you cant retreat, ur army will be marauder slowed to death. or zergling speed surrounded to death. terran can just stim and run away. and zerg, well zerg units are fast and cheap. protoss units are expensive, slow and unforgiving

[NvPinder]

Or you could use forcefield and the exact same thing applies in reverse, they cant retreat without losing half their army cos its stuck on your side of the FF, and you can retreat because u cut their army off...

point 2 is retarded, if anyone randomly loses 70% of their workers at any point of the game it fucks them over completely, and they should 100% loses the game. Good players arent sitting around with 2k banked to build another 40 drones instantly when they lose them unless it's mega-late game w/ maxed armies, not to mention the fact that even if they do this they've still lost a ridiculous amount of mining time + sunk a bunch of money into workers and should just get rolled over anyway.

If you're going to post 1 really vague example to prove an entire point, ill do the same, zerg has to find the perfect balance between droning up and producing an army, if at ANY point of the game they slip this up they're massively fucked vs a good protoss player, especially on smaller maps. If they think an all-in 4 gate is coming and its actually 3-gate expo and they've built a ton of crawlers + a round of speedlings? Yep, they're fucked. If they think FE into 6/7/8 gate pressure is coming and really the toss is just passively macroing off 3-4 gates and getting robo up, yep, they're fucked. This is MUCH more difficult to do and a FUCKLOAD harder than an example of not being able to place a forcefield on your ramp....


edit: also, re-reading point 1, id argue you are going to win in a situation like that, you're going to be punishing his nat, your reinforcements come incredibly quick thanks to warpgate, and you can sentry FF his ramp to oblivion to pound on his nat and force him to lift it back into in his main.

[FatHuntresS]

uhmm only ling speed is fast .. roach hydra is bloody slow. protoss is not UP . just that theyre playing it wrong. there is many strategy to be executed with stargate, hallucination and dropship.

seriously protoss is the easiest to play and people are complaining? this is i must say l2p . use your damn op forcefield imo.


and JPmoney, u are right, zerg has to find a balance, and if we do a single mistake of not scouting a pylon or shiz, even a noob protoss player may own us Thus why zergs rage that hard, sometimes a win become loss in a TVZ aswell, one mistake and our 20 mutas die to thor missile, or baneings running into Thor, and our neural parasite is UP. Protoss is the most stable amongst all 3 race and easiest to play with so many varaition but in ladder all i see is mass stalker immortal crap. i get angry when 4 base lose to 2 base . but i just told myself to l2p as i endured it since i started playing sc2.

about Roz post. its the same for ROACHES we are slower than stalker. siege tank even own our every ground unit.

basically a mistake is VERY crucial for toss/zerg vs terran.

we cant run away either as ur stalkers have blink. so when we engage we make sure we can win. and hydra is slow as F***. to complain about movement speed.. wow.

the ONLY forgiving race here is terran cause mules


remember the days when all protoss had to do was proxy a hidden pylon and 4 gate us? remember the days where all they do is block our ramp with 2 pylon to 1 base vs 2 base? we adjusted, we learn.

I strongly disagree with imbalance due to GSL result. i am just saying, zerg and terran players are better at the GSL event. lets watch this one i am rooting for genius and tester, clide aswell. also fruit. if u actually watch the game. u know what i am talking about.

[NvPinder]

The guy that 9 pools every game is telling everyone to learn to play, and now claiming that protoss is infact the easiest race to play, not the most unforgiving!

Could it be a terran player will come in soon to knowledge bomb us all on how they have the hardest race and zerg is easy?

Or will a protoss player reply with claims of how imbalanced mutalisks are.

Or maybe another zerg will join Fat9pool in swarming the forums with zerg rage...

Find out on the next episode of

IDIOTS. ON. SEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

*dragonball z closing music*

[sheepy]

The guy that 9 pools every game is telling everyone to learn to play, and now claiming that protoss is infact the easiest race to play, not the most unforgiving!

Could it be a terran player will come in soon to knowledge bomb us all on how they have the hardest race and zerg is easy?

Or will a protoss player reply with claims of how imbalanced mutalisks are.

Or maybe another zerg will join Fat9pool in swarming the forums with zerg rage...

Find out on the next episode of

IDIOTS. ON. SEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

*dragonball z closing music*

Pinder.... i really love you right now . My new hero

[FatHuntresS]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

The guy that 9 pools every game is telling everyone to learn to play, and now claiming that protoss is infact the easiest race to play, not the most unforgiving!

Could it be a terran player will come in soon to knowledge bomb us all on how they have the hardest race and zerg is easy?

Or will a protoss player reply with claims of how imbalanced mutalisks are.

Or maybe another zerg will join Fat9pool in swarming the forums with zerg rage...

Find out on the next episode of

IDIOTS. ON. SEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

*dragonball z closing music*

tbh i havent 9 pooled in like months. and its a valid strat, saying leenock 6 pooling in GSL or fruit 9 pooling in GSL i dont think u even stand up to them. Dont rage cause u lost to 9 pool. Keep whining pinder. ur doing a good job.

maybe not idiots. but whiners on sea u guys were strong because we other players started late, so learn to respect people and their opinions, infact the way you replied really make you look like a kid.if u cant accept discussions , then dont.

So much BM on SEA anyway back to topic, i do believe blizzard will do their part and balance the game, so just wait it out if toss is really UP they will do something about it. However each and every person should be entitled to their own opinion. If u wanna go personal, i'd rather we do it somewhere else, also the admin is adding fuel to the fire. thats a great start for sc2sea.com

Congrats.

[simplytemeka]

seriously protoss is the easiest to play and people are complaining?

Ok I can't agree with this but the rest of it is quite good.

Especially the part about builts , Z's lost very easily when the game was just out. We slowly learn and adapted our builts.

Look at toss , every openings are so standard and predictable now.

Maybe except on SEA diamond ladder , I have been facing "4 Gates" pressure which turned out to be DT rush. 4 Gates rush which turned out to be warp prism drop which greatly reduced the usefulness of spine crawlers.

[Roz]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

Or you could use forcefield and the exact same thing applies in reverse, they cant retreat without losing half their army cos its stuck on your side of the FF, and you can retreat because u cut their army off...

point 2 is retarded, if anyone randomly loses 70% of their workers at any point of the game it fucks them over completely, and they should 100% loses the game. Good players arent sitting around with 2k banked to build another 40 drones instantly when they lose them unless it's mega-late game w/ maxed armies, not to mention the fact that even if they do this they've still lost a ridiculous amount of mining time + sunk a bunch of money into workers and should just get rolled over anyway.

If you're going to post 1 really vague example to prove an entire point, ill do the same, zerg has to find the perfect balance between droning up and producing an army, if at ANY point of the game they slip this up they're massively fucked vs a good protoss player, especially on smaller maps. If they think an all-in 4 gate is coming and its actually 3-gate expo and they've built a ton of crawlers + a round of speedlings? Yep, they're fucked. If they think FE into 6/7/8 gate pressure is coming and really the toss is just passively macroing off 3-4 gates and getting robo up, yep, they're fucked. This is MUCH more difficult to do and a FUCKLOAD harder than an example of not being able to place a forcefield on your ramp....


edit: also, re-reading point 1, id argue you are going to win in a situation like that, you're going to be punishing his nat, your reinforcements come incredibly quick thanks to warpgate, and you can sentry FF his ramp to oblivion to pound on his nat and force him to lift it back into in his main.

like i said , im not saying protoss is the only race that is unforgiving in misjudgements. Im just saying it's so much harder to come back from it afterwards. If you lose half ur army on ur attack attempt on a terran, u're probably gonna die afterwards. On the other hand, if a terran lose half his stuff, they throw down a few bunkers and with a few tanks, the chance they will live is a lot higher than a toss.

Also i do agree that zerg is the hardest race to play, i never said they weren't. What im trying to get at is the economy of protoss is a lot harder to recover from (say from harass and stuff). If you kill 80% of a terrans SCV and they kill 80% of ur probes, who is going to suffer more? the protoss obviously.

We're just here for discussion, nothing serious here. Don't need to be so mean!

[simplytemeka]

Ok juz saw this

http://sea.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/95768#blog

[FatHuntresS]

However, if the matchmaking system is working properly, then a player of any race should be so well matched versus their opponents that their win/loss ratio should be very close to 50%, even if the races weren't particularly well balanced. In effect, the matchmaking system could be hiding balance issues -- if we didn't use an adjusted win percentage which takes the matchmaker's effects into account. - Quoted from the blog

This was what i was always pointing out, im glad they use an adjusted win percentage

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by FatHuntresS

tbh i havent 9 pooled in like months. and its a valid strat, saying leenock 6 pooling in GSL or fruit 9 pooling in GSL i dont think u even stand up to them. Dont rage cause u lost to 9 pool. Keep whining pinder. ur doing a good job.

maybe not idiots. but whiners on sea u guys were strong because we other players started late, so learn to respect people and their opinions, infact the way you replied really make you look like a kid.if u cant accept discussions , then dont.

So much BM on SEA

It's a valid strat, if you don't open with it 3 games in a row in a bo3, if you remember right i won that series and I'm more making fun of you for 9 pooling 3 games in a row than i am whining about you doing it ^^

also you cant really claim we (whoever 'we' are...) are only 'strong' because other players started late when you've probably played like 2x the games i have since release...

and if spamming in capitals, trying to initiate fights and referencing cartoons on the internet makes me a kid, then i never wanna grow up~!


and roz i do agree with what you're saying, in the very rare situation you both somehow end up losing a ton of workers the terran is at a big advantage with mules, but those situations are incredibly rare and should be specifically avoided by P, You shouldnt really ever try to put yourself in a situation where you're base racing terran.

In the situation that you've beat the terran down and he's had to go incredibly defensive to survive, as long as you havent been crippled in some other way it becomes a huge advantage for the protoss actually having map control (which is really hard to take PvT) and the ability to take another base and deny any of their attempts, which in 90% of games is game winning anyway.