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Satu · Sun, 3rd-Apr-2011, 8:11 PM

So I was reading here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=208343

When I came across a section entitled "You Suck". Its interesting as heck, and focuses on the mindset you should probably have at any level of play, in order to scope how good you are compared to the population. I feel like summing it up for those who dont want to read through the thread. Im posting this here in the BSG section, because I feel like it can help lower ranked players more than higher ranked players, as it is a way to ensure more efficient improvement in SC2. Of course, if you've hit an imaginary skill ceiling in a higher level, this could be a good way to think differently about your situation as well.

Basically, it tells you that you suck, statistically. If you look at how many people are ranked higher than you, you can realise how low of a player you are in the big picture of SC2. Once you have established that you suck, you can more heavily focus on how to improve.

Personally, I think this is the best mindset to have. Im in diamond at the moment and constantly find reasons to tell myself why I suck, and how I should improve based on those reasons. Although, you if you're too hard on yourself, it could cause you to really suck and then ragequit from SC2. Be hard on yourself to the degree that forces improvement, but not to the point that causes you to be alienated from not just the game but also the community.

Do you guys follow a mindset close to this, or think this is the correct/wrong way of thinking?

**iM tgun** · Sun, 3rd-Apr-2011, 8:21 PM

Probably not the greatest thing to drill into people. Some (like myself) will thrive under small amounts of negative reinforcement: the mast majority, however, due to the way we are taught at school will (more often than not) to positive reinforcement.

cruxis · Sun, 3rd-Apr-2011, 8:30 PM

Yeah, when I see my minerals/gas get high, I say to myself "Ahhh, I'm playing like shit".

But then when I see vast improvements, like having roach warren finish, then spamming roaches, and having 0 money, 0 gas, 0 larva, and 2 extra supply, I feel great.

Kringe · Sun, 3rd-Apr-2011, 8:32 PM

Summing up really ??

SkyBreaker Warning: Don't request a TL-DR, either read the article and comment, or don't comment. One-line non-constructive posts in the future will result in further infraction(s).

**SkyBreaker** · Sun, 3rd-Apr-2011, 8:59 PM

Read that article earlier today, it's amazing. Especially at helping those players who are fearful of the 1v1 ladder, also SlayerSBaekho's thread regarding that issue was also equally as awesome (can be found linked in the OP's thread).

Satu · Sun, 3rd-Apr-2011, 9:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgun

Probably not the greatest thing to drill into people. Some (like myself) will thrive under small amounts of negative reinforcement: the mast majority, however, due to the way we are taught at school will (more often than not) to positive reinforcement.

Yeah, it does depend on yourself as well tbh. Everyone is different and this might not be the best choice, but for lower league players, it could be worth thinking about.

I dont feel like school's positive reinforcement was good enough personally, and on top of that, hearing about players being hard on themselves and succeeding in SC/SC2 is pretty common. So far, I've been led to believe thats the best mindset to have.

Unfortunately, when it comes to competition, that mindset might not be so good, as you might think that you suck so bad that you might not be able to win. As long as you have confidence in competition and a method of looking down on your play or efficiently analyzing your play outside of competition, then it should usually work well.

Also, sky, looks like you've forced me to read up more about mentalities in playing/training lol.

Perhaps I can go deeper into this, with the specifics on the mindset that can be used for training, the mindset for laddering and a mindset for more competitive play? Although, I might not be the best resource for the competitive play option, so that could take some extra reading.

This stuff is interesting, simply because of how much it can change efficiency. You can admit that starcraft isnt a game that is based on emotion, but those who play it DO have emotions, and that effects how the numbers in starcraft can be dealt out, in many cases.

aztecx · Tue, 5th-Apr-2011, 1:43 AM

I think one personality trait you need to have is to not suffer from the Dunning-Kurger effect. You should not rate your skill higher than it really is because then you lack the capability to acknowledge your lack of skill and actually improve. I think a lot of players suffer from this, hence the customary 'you're such a noob' after you beat them in a game. I believe it is important to know there is room for improvement but I don't believe that beating yourself up really helps.

I think at higher levels of play having very high confidence is a requirement of being successful. I notice my game improves dramatically if I have the confidence to back it.

divinesage · Tue, 5th-Apr-2011, 2:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aztecx

I think one personality trait you need to have is to not suffer from the Dunning-Kurger effect. You should not rate your skill higher than it really is because then you lack the capability to acknowledge your lack of skill and actually improve. I think a lot of players suffer from this, hence the customary 'you're such a noob' after you beat them in a game. I believe it is important to know there is room for improvement but I don't believe that beating yourself up really helps.

I think at higher levels of play having very high confidence is a requirement of being successful. I notice my game improves dramatically if I have the confidence to back it.

I agree with this. Once you start to think you're good and get complacent and all, you start to stagnate. Quoting anecdotal evidence from myself personally, there was a time when I felt I was good enough at the game and barely improved at all. It wasn't until I finally acknowledged that I have much to learn, and that I am actually not good after all that I finally started to improve again.

Your worst enemy is yourself (regardless of whether it's overconfidence or a lack of it).

pXAero · Tue, 5th-Apr-2011, 9:00 AM

It really comes down to your own personality. For some people this "you suck" mentality would really work, for others like myself this sort of mentality is really destructive. For me the best mentality is "I don't know everything, but what I do know I'm going to do well". Essentially it produces the same results but it's just looking at it from a different perspective.

And it really does come down to that everyone is different. Why is Wayne Bennett such a good rugby league coach? He knows which people need a kick up the ass to get the best out of them, and he knows who needs encouragement.

Either way you need to aim higher than you're at now.

HaNdFisH · Tue, 5th-Apr-2011, 5:59 PM

I find I have the opposite problem; every game I play I pick out a million mistakes, get frustrated at how bad I am and stop playing. Even if I win.

Satu · Tue, 5th-Apr-2011, 6:27 PM

I think I'll make a post covering more issues than this in the near future, on how you should treat different aspects of SC2 mentally. Of course, it'll be mostly my opinion, but based on what I've read, and I'll post other experienced people's thoughts in it as well (Taken from guides, posts, etc). I'd include how to think while training/improving (this), how to think competitively and how to think while beginning on ladder (when you're scared, I found an epic example for this one).

On this particular subject though, of looking down on your own game, yes it is indeed detrimental to your confidence, if you truely believe you are a bad player. That is really missing the point of the entire thing, so perhaps there is an easier way of saying it.

The idea behind this way of thinking is so that you criticize your own play harshly, and make an effort to change it as a result. This is in comparison to thinking your way of playing is fine, and that you don't need to improve your way of playing. I will go as far as to say that no one is perfect, and thus you need to constantly attempt to better your game, to be as close to perfect as humanly possible, not as close as you think you are capable of. Furthering this thought, it means anyone can improve. Why do koreans play so much SC2? To keep as good as they are, or to try and reach a higher level of competition, in order to beat those who attempt to beat them? At least, they should be reaching as high as possible. Really, this way of thinking is entirely based on improvement, it is straight out of a guide telling people how to improve in starcraft 2 1v1 multiplayer.

A better way of saying it would be along the lines of:

Do not ever be comfortable with your own play. Look hard to find how you can improve parts of your own game, and compare the way you play to those above you. The moment you should feel comfortable should be the moment you are proven to be the human equivalent of perfect.

It is kinda common sense though, compare it to any other form of work that has a high skill ceiling, if one exists at all.

Rythos · Tue, 21st-Jun-2011, 7:58 AM

I really like the idea of the "You Suck" mindset. Though as others have mentioned, I don't think it's supposed to be as harsh as it sounds. Putting yourself down doesn't get you anywhere, but being aware of the fact that you have a lot to improve is very helpful. It can be easy to get angry and attribute your losses to what your opponent did, ie:

"He's a &*@$% for cheesing/rushing/all-ining me"
"That unit/ability/race is overpowered"

Those thoughts don't contribute to you improving as a player. However, if you focus on your part in losing a game, you can start to think much more productive thoughts like:

"How can I defend against that strategy in future?"
"Could my unit composition have been better for what I was against?"
"Was my scouting, build execution or macro lacking?

That's how I interpret the idea anyway. You don't want to beat yourself up over failures, but if you acknowledge your part in them you're in a much better position to improve.

Satu · Tue, 21st-Jun-2011, 8:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rythos

I really like the idea of the "You Suck" mindset. Though as others have mentioned, I don't think it's supposed to be as harsh as it sounds. Putting yourself down doesn't get you anywhere, but being aware of the fact that you have a lot to improve is very helpful. It can be easy to get angry and attribute your losses to what your opponent did, ie:

"He's a &*@$% for cheesing/rushing/all-ining me"
"That unit/ability/race is overpowered"

Those thoughts don't contribute to you improving as a player. However, if you focus on your part in losing a game, you can start to think much more productive thoughts like:

"How can I defend against that strategy in future?"
"Could my unit composition have been better for what I was against?"
"Was my scouting, build execution or macro lacking?

That's how I interpret the idea anyway. You don't want to beat yourself up over failures, but if you acknowledge your part in them you're in a much better position to improve.

Yeah, but theres a fine line between being disappointed in yourself and looking to improve yourself as a result, and bashing other players in anger because you cant win any games. Its mainly about an easy method of developing a drive to improve yourself, although theres no saying its going to work for everyone. The best advice is to find what works for you, sure try this out, but if it fails badly try other options.

Canx · Tue, 21st-Jun-2011, 11:12 AM

I agree with it. I try to, as much as possible, to blame myself whenever I lose, in the sense that I could have done something else better.

Also, I think not just BSG players should think this way, all players should

Maybe you could move the thread out of BSG section?