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AssyrianKing · Sun, 29th-Jul-2012, 7:59 PM

Protoss that is.

Lately, I have been watching the forums and the complaints of different progamers and even users of TeamLiquid. Even reading the Interviews of Korean players.

The line that caught my attention the most was none other then our very own Bisu
" I like aggressive styles, but SC2 protoss needs to play defensively"

Also the recent interview at MLG from qxc, he talked about PvT being a broken matchup because of the warp-in mechanic, and that there really isn't anything to stop it extreme late game unless you max mules and have a 200/200 army, a feat that surely should not be required to do.

Then comes the unit design. Starcraft II is known for some of its units for having poor unit design.
The unit I absolutely hate the most (besides stalkers cos they look ugly and zealots because in my own opinion their stupid charge design) is Colossus. It is the most boring piece of crap unit that reminds me of a crap movie and when watching PvP as we witnessed at the last finals, IT IS BORING TO WATCH! Like sure you can watch it once or twice, but every single bloody PvP is like that, its linear and its boring! I would just seriously just cut the colossus and bring back the reaver, deadset.

In BW, PvT and PvZ were very entertaining matchups, and PvP showcased a good respectable matchup of micro and REAVERSS~~~ which made it so exciting. SC2 Protoss is way too 1 dimensional for me, or for anyone to enjoy, surely even the progamers, I truly believe that Protoss needs a change so #1 The race is fun to play and #2 The race is fun to watch!

Meatex · Sun, 29th-Jul-2012, 8:05 PM

yeah i much much prefer the dynamics of zvt where you have multi pronged attacks used to distract zerg while terran takes mid or attacks at main and then things like ghosts harass late late game
ZvT is a really interesting matchup both to play and watch (with the exception of turtle mech)

ZvP is boring 99% of the time. Oz v stephano was interesting cause he didn't just sentry immortal all in or turtle to deathball. I have a lot of problems with protoss design making it a boring race to watch and to play against but it will never change so only option is to just grit your teeth and play protoss or go watch porn when its a PvX in whatever tournament you're watching

Quick Comments

FsDronesInJail:

Hmmm porn good idea :D!!!

AssyrianKing · Sun, 29th-Jul-2012, 8:08 PM

ZvP isnt THAT bad, im more focused on the issue of PvP which just drains sc2
Though I have to agree ZvP would be much more entertaining if Zerg had lurkers and not roaches and Protoss had reavers~ :P

SLCNPezz · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 1:03 AM

I think the protoss race is fine as the game goes on it keeps getting better.

ProAnnn · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 1:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pezzaperry

I think the protoss race is fine as the game goes on it keeps getting better.

Whatever this guy says.

ZvP may not be fun to watch but its really fun to play.

There are a million 2 base allins from protoss. There's so many 3/4 base zerg can do if protoss wants to get a third. You can see zergs going bane drops / mutas/ fast ultras /stephano roaches.

Its versatile!

What i really hate is TvP where its just MMMGV vs Collo HT Gateway stuff. Its too boring

ROOT`iaguz · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 1:12 AM

Protoss have ability to be aggressive in TvP. MC and Squirtle show this constantly. Most protoss choose not to because it's incredibly risky for a race that has observers to be doing daft blink stalker/sentry prism timings or whatever silly shit MC is up to.

The problem that a lot of Protoss have is they struggle (in PvT anyway) to harass whilst macroing. They can do a few pressures or funky builds but when medivacs and stim finishes they more often then not are on the backfoot and have to wait it out. And that's fine I think, that's just how Starcraft works. There are times when one player can do shit and the other player has to chill the **** out until he can do something.

Lategame TvP is ******* annoying as hell though as Terran a lot of the time. I constantly get demolished by Protosses that I have huge economic leads against, and if you have an upgrade advantage/parity at some point well you don't really cuz of chronoboost. If you're floating shitloads of minerals well your mineral dump unit gets murdered by storm/colossus whereas theirs can actually take a punch so that's fun too. And yes the 30 warpgate dynamic is super awesome. I dunno it's tricky.

Quick Comments

sRDante:

100% agree with the last part, lategame dts are a pain in the ass as well.

Shieldz · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 1:31 AM

like i think tvp can be a bit better but like the game is like this its not that easy to change

DUCKVILLELOL · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 5:28 AM

I would love it if DT's were accessible earlier. One of the main ways I play was to use DTs as much as possible, and it was hard I'll admit - but with the recent Overlord speed buff there is actually just no point even trying, unless you hide it somewhere because the Zerg is almost always going to see the tech.

From a commentating perspective I'd love it if the colo went byebye and the Reaver came back - scarab shots were INCREDIBLY tense and fun to watch back in the BW days.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	The reaver was that exciting because of the buggy 1998 engine. luck needs to be minimized
	TADivinity:	This isnt true at all ahah?

AssyrianKing · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 6:50 AM

Guys im focusing more on the problem of PvP!!!~~

Quick Comments

breadfan:

You can't redesign an entire race based on one matchup alone.

ToRSpookToR · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 7:15 AM

lol 4 gate dt at 6.30 or when ever it hits...

DUCKVILLELOL · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 7:16 AM

You mentioned all the matchups though! :P

I'm fine with PvP at the moment. I would like to see more people using phoenix styles, but after I started using my new style I'm actually having far more fun with it.

I think that (again) the colo is the problem in PvP that can lead to it being "boring" - because of those shitty colo v colo battles in the more standard form of play, but it can be entertaining sometimes.

That said; it's another HUGE example of the "glass cannon effect" in Starcraft 2, whereby 1 small mistake and bam you're done. Prime example of this is Flying vs Hero(bw version, not TL) - from Proleague on Saturday. There was a huge battle with colo/archon/zeal vs colo/archon zeal - but Hero had badly positioned himself, and a couple of archons were out of the battle and that was it. Flying had a huge concave, smashed through the majority of Hero's army, and bam.

I think that's part of the problem people have with PvP standard play, and perhaps SC2 in general to an extent. I know even in BW there were some times when you would lose a big army and you'd be in a shitload of trouble; but it wasn't always a situation of "well shit, gg bro". For example in BW if you were Terran and you were doing standard turtle-mech, and your opponent is doing carriers, smashes your tank/vult army; you'd be in a bit of trouble - but on like 5-8 fact you can hit up a bunch of goliaths and fight your way back. You can't always fight your way back in SC2 simply because of the magnitude and power of the units - in that Flying vs Hero game, there is no way to catch back up to your opponents colo count if you lose a few of your own. And making a tech switch (to dt/phoenix or something random) just isn't viable either.

end rant.

Here is the Flying vs Hero game I was talking about if you're interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-D_VKjghNkQ

Meatex · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 11:37 AM

the whole smashing big army into big army is a general problem with sc2 design
It's never fun watching that and I think its a big problem causing loss in viewers of events compared to LoL

In LoL there is always "action" to watch but that kind of situation is rare in sc2 games. Maybe a little early harass or poking but so much of it is watching players try to get the upper hand in macro, unit composition. As a player I can appreciate the exciting moments of oh my god he is getting drop to deal with the timing thats coming soon and then the excitement as the opponent sees that and switches his play to more defensive and so on. To average spectator though no action is happening

Now watching TSL the other day with major verses hyun (TvZ) and there was almost constant attack in the final 3 games. Hellions everywhere and it was so intense and exciting to watch

There isn't that aspect in protoss because it encourages deathballing and straight rush timings too much.

Quick Comments

Dingobloo:

"action" might be the most unintentionally hilarious thing in this entire post.

**inFeZa** · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 2:42 PM

The race is fine. redesigning it would be stupid. gah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaguz

Lategame TvP is ******* annoying as hell though

As for PvT Late game, i've noticed a lot of pros going really ghost heavy, like 16-20 or so ghosts! and you have so much emp no matter how he spreads you'll hit a lot of stuff, snipes to kill off templar, have a lot of HP (135 i think can be healed by medivacs), can drop nukes and do extra damage vs light units (zealots). and it's not that gas heavy.

But the 30 gateway remax of zealots can be really strong, but we make zealots because of that marauder unit that every protoss hates because it's so efficient vs everything.

tldr; i shit my pants when i see ghosts

ROOT`iaguz · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 5:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inFeZa

The race is fine. redesigning it would be stupid. gah.

As for PvT Late game, i've noticed a lot of pros going really ghost heavy, like 16-20 or so ghosts! and you have so much emp no matter how he spreads you'll hit a lot of stuff, snipes to kill off templar, have a lot of HP (135 i think can be healed by medivacs), can drop nukes and do extra damage vs light units (zealots). and it's not that gas heavy.

But the 30 gateway remax of zealots can be really strong, but we make zealots because of that marauder unit that every protoss hates because it's so efficient vs everything.

tldr; i shit my pants when i see ghosts

Yea but it still doesn't help much against the 30 warpgate. Like you'll blanket EMP his army and you'll probably kill it as long as he doesn't have any spare storms but you can't really follow through from there very easily cuz of mass warpgate.

Grumble.

AssyrianKing · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 6:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaguz

Yea but it still doesn't help much against the 30 warpgate. Like you'll blanket EMP his army and you'll probably kill it as long as he doesn't have any spare storms but you can't really follow through from there very easily cuz of mass warpgate.

Grumble.

Even qxc said it was broken T.T

AxSGRiM · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 4:06 PM

protoss is weak thats the main problem

Quick Comments

x5_Namakaye:

hahahaha

Shieldz · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 4:07 PM

yes protoss trash;;

AssyrianKing · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 5:02 PM

Players these days don't really expand their production as Brood War players did, can this possibly be a reason why games end so early after 1 big fight late game?

DUCKVILLELOL · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 5:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiPoGevy

Players these days don't really expand their production as Brood War players did, can this possibly be a reason why games end so early after 1 big fight late game?

Not really. In BW Protoss didn't always get multiple production either (in terms of robo/star) - unless you were going carriers in which case you'd SOMETIMES see up to 3-5 stargates, depending on how late it was. It's an issue of efficiency with units, and the fact that they are such glass cannons. Just in my opinion anyway.

AssyrianKing · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 5:17 PM

Glass Cannon? What as in units in SC2 are way more efficient in killing things then in broodwar?

**PiG** · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:26 PM

Terran need battle helions, PvP needs change, PvZ is pretty good imo. Just the dynamic of spine-brood lategame can be boring as all hell

AssyrianKing · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:28 PM

Terran needs their old tanks back~ lol
Agree
Agree
Agree
Zerg needs to cut Roach's, get back old Hydra's and get lurkers
Protoss needs to cut colossus and get reaver, PROBLEM SOLVED!

ROOT`iaguz · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:30 PM

Ugh, don't change tanks. If we get old tanks back TvP would be like 80% terran to win lol.

SanG · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:31 PM

Protoss needs deletion

Quick Comments

	ToRSmotPokingFish:	this!! <3
	sRDante:	YE
	inFeZa:	ya mum
	cruxSpoon:	Protoss has delete, he's on xGKing now

Another · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:31 PM

yeah PvP is stupid, i think removing the warp in ruins PvP. aggressive builds are 10x stronger due to warp in, which is the reason for such short games/low econ. Also it may help balance late game PvT a bit.

Also imo the macro of warp gates is harder, you have to look away from the battle to macro, while zerg and terran dont need to. zerg needs to inject, but thats much faster with backspace than warping in units, esp late game. ever tried warping in 30 stalkers or zealots? looking away from battle for 2-3 seconds to warp in your army is annoying.

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

Something very underlooked. That's why you should always fight on pylon power

ToRSmotPokingFish · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:32 PM

i think PiPo likes broodwar a bit much... welcome to sc2 bro, stuff is different and sad to say, i dont think changing it to make it more like broodwar is an effective fix...

but i do think TvP needs a look at late game, toss death ball soooo good t_t

Another · Tue, 31st-Jul-2012, 5:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToRBobby

i think PiPo likes broodwar a bit much... welcome to sc2 bro, stuff is different and sad to say, i dont think changing it to make it more like broodwar is an effective fix...

but i do think TvP needs a look at late game, toss death ball soooo good t_t

to clarify, TvP late game is harder than PvT. For terran to win takes more skill than it does for Protoss to win, however if the terran plays like a god, there isnt much protoss can do to win, if the viking count is perfect, EMP and snipes take out every HT so no storms go off, the T will win convincingly.

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

... 'if terran plays like a god'... i completely agree with this statement and i have been thinking it for a long time

**syfChadMann** · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:34 PM

I know.. lets just take brood war.. and make it look prettier.. but change - nothing.

Quick Comments

InteGrand:

AAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN

AssyrianKing · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cr.chadmann

i know.. Lets just take brood war.. And make it look prettier.. But change - nothing.

fuckin genius cuzzzzzz~~~

InteGrand · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 8:46 PM

They need to let all mechanical and biological units to crush FF. Then it's all good.

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

FF IMBA!

ProAnnn · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 10:08 PM

Tbh, all they need to do is take out phoenix to balance PvP. Robo expand builds are safe against anything cept phoenix which lead to freaking 1 basing every game

x5.RunaMoK · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 11:03 PM

shoudlnt you be getting blink vs pheonix

x5_Bard · Tue, 31st-Jul-2012, 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunaMok

shouldn't you be getting blink vs pheonix

You cant really know that until he already has them.

I find colossi wars extremely tense actually. Positioning and engaging is so crucial that tiny mistakes/differences can lead to amazingly different outcomes. I don't think alot of players understand this and instead look at "LOL LAZERBEAMS SICK MATCHUP YO". I think its hard for anyone with limited knowledge of the matchup to fully appreciate PvP as its more about metagaming/positioning rather than just pure mechanics. ZvZ has coinflips, the finals between Losira and Nestea was probably the worst finals series I've ever watched. TvT is exactly the same, except that terrans have MvP who defies logic and holds timings in TvT that he shouldnt -.-.

All mirror matchups have the same issues as PvP so I have no idea how you can single out protoss as the reason sc2 is bad and then say return all the broodwar units. Do you have any idea how imbalanced reavers would be with sc2's unit clumping?

**inFeZa** · Mon, 30th-Jul-2012, 11:06 PM

Reabu reabu reabu reabu

AssyrianKing · Tue, 31st-Jul-2012, 4:15 PM

Just cut colossus and our lives will be better~~~

Statix · Wed, 1st-Aug-2012, 6:22 PM

the toss need a sound effect, where if the pylon goes down nearer the other persons base, it says AIUR REJECTS YOU!

forever searching for those damn proxies!

AssyrianKing · Wed, 1st-Aug-2012, 7:43 PM

Guys read my new thread on the Blizzard website, please support it
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6232303982#1

FS.Kezz · Thu, 2nd-Aug-2012, 5:59 PM

We've had lots of discussion about why it might be broken, but does anyone have ideas on how it could be redesigned? Not just how to balance the race ('make warpgate cooldown longer for higher tech units' for example), but suggest a new mechanic. Terran has their standard 'queue it up' production facilities, Zerg uses larva, Protoss currently has the warpgate system. Maybe you want something different in terms of shields? One example off the top of my head is that 'damage has a % chance to pierce the shield and inflict HP damage (regardless of shield value)'.

Any other ideas on how to actually redesign the Protoss playstyle?

mGGAequitas · Thu, 2nd-Aug-2012, 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FS.Kezz

One example off the top of my head is that 'damage has a % chance to pierce the shield and inflict HP damage (regardless of shield value)'.

purposefully putting luck into strategy games is a good way to ruin the game

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

^^ this

**inFeZa** · Thu, 2nd-Aug-2012, 6:24 PM

They're not going to change warp ins. Please stop suggesting how blizzard can. 'fix' the race by changing it..... Not gonna happen in sc2.

A3Mercury · Sun, 5th-Aug-2012, 6:39 AM

Its really funny because it seems that with such differences in the 3 races, the opinions of such are so different lol. I like the way the stalkers a lot from an appearance aspect but colossus look really funny moving back and forth. I don't mind it but the 1:10:00 PvP that Alicia and Hero had at the MLG summer arena felt like a drag for most of it.