[faithHunter]

I've been trying out mech in TvP lately on ladder. I've won a few games with it, but all of those games are probably won because the enemy didn't make immortals or those unit that "counters" mech play. But should the opposing protoss play well and respond well against my mech play, the Protoss will usually win.

The reason why I've been going mech against protoss lately is because of one simple reason: Terran has been struggling against late game Protoss should the Terran go Bio with some Viking and Ghost Support. Because of that I decided to find another way out of this "ordeal" and try out mech against protoss.

According to a TL article I've read about mech in TvP, you should rush to Thors early game to defend against rushes, because you can "mass repair" the Thor with SCVs. 1 or 2 Thors and a couple of Marines in a bunker is sufficient to defend against most all-ins/rushes, according to the text. I've been doing exactly that when I attempt to go mech vs protoss.

But the problem is when the Protoss goes blink stalkers and starts denying your expansions, going to your base and blinking up your main, sniping a few structures and blinking back down and retreating when my tanks and thors are about to arrive. This becomes a problem, since you won't be able to keep up with macro with the protoss if they just keep on denying your expansions, and also if you leave a couple of tanks in each expansion, they just blink next to them, kill them and kill your expansion.

Another problem I've found while going Mech vs Protoss is this one annoying little prick they call the 'Immortal' (no offense fellow es ) Sure, you can land EMPs on them to drain their shield, but they can still deal 50 damage to your mech army and kill them. Also, Stargate units are also pretty good against mech, especially Carriers, since we don't have the Goliaths back in BW to handle them. Thors can't just fulfill the role of anti air like Goliaths used to when going mech.

So far, I've found 2 main problems with mech in TvP:

1. Blink Stalkers are way too mobile against your mech army, they can snipe expansions and force you to unsiege your tanks and move away, which rises the potential of being out of position should the main protoss army attack yours. Maybe you could get a couple of bunkers at every expansion and put marines in it. When the blink stalkers try to harass, pull a couple of scvs and try and repair the bunkers.

2. Immortals and Carriers are really good against mech.

I'm sure that there are much more problems that mech has against protoss that I personally haven't faced yet. But those 2 major problems are what I have found so far. If there is a problem that I haven't listed yet, could you please post it as a reply and tell me why so that we could figure out a solution for it?

Thanks in advance.

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

[simon]

honestly there is no use exploring mech vs protoss currently as its just bad. even the great go0dy doesnt mech tvp anymore because its hopeless. that a lone should tell you all you need to know.

i suggest working on your army and unit control(ghosts, vikings, kiting) and chosing the correct position to fight in and go back to bio.

[ROOT`iaguz]

The big problem mech in TvP is that it's really dumb and you shouldn't do it ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever.

Ever.

The succinct answer as to why is because everything Protoss has, except for sentries, are good in some meaningful fashion.

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

The big problem mech in TvP is that it's really dumb and you shouldn't do it ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever.

Ever.

The succinct answer as to why is because everything Protoss has, except for sentries, are good in some meaningful fashion.

Maybe with the addition of the giant thor mech jesus terrans will be able to use mech.

Also, goliaths and battle hellions. But mainly the giant thor.

[SLCN.Kez]

So youre saying we shouldnt do it ever iaguz?

[simon]

as iaguz said they can build almost anything and it counters mech.

[HuT]

See the gateway?

It counters mech.

See the stargate?

It counter mech.

See the robo?

Jesus ******* christ this counter mech.

See the templar archives?

OMGWTFALLMYSHITISOVERRUN.

Quick Comments

	simon:	TT
	NDG.Stitch:
	ToRVenom:	Can only Rep once for this :(

[sRDreaM]

I've been copying what Iaguz did in one of his stream games and went BC/Ghost into the bio composition =/ emp and yamato the collosus lol xD

Totally agree with what HuT said above

I think the biggest problem with mech would be that it takes ages to replenish even with bio it's still difficult to replenish against a protoss and most of the important mech units have energy which templar comes in and feedback

[HuT]

To re-emphasize

Mech worked in BW because (basically

- Tanks were better (and 2 supply!)
- You had mines

Leave 5+ tanks, turrets and 10+ mines on one side of the map, that shit locked down all game long baby.

Leave 5+ tanks and turrets alone and watch as zealots kill 5 tanks and replace the lost zealots with 2 warpins zzz. Mech is the opposite of bio (obviously) so at any point your army can only ever together or you risk losing little bits when / where you cant afford to. You cant afford to lock down parts of a map to prevent Toss from harassing expansions and such.

If there were mines in the game, maybe, but right now, mech is a bad bad bad build.

(Except for Thor Hellion Banshee Marine which works only on maps with straight pushing lines)

Quick Comments

sRDreaM:

Vulture were great units to protect tanks unlike hellions

[dippa]

mech in theory sounds nice because upgrades scale much much better on high tier units (see how hard archons/colossi rape with 3-3, ultras on 5-3, 3-3 battlecruisers and so on).

but protoss have too many disruptive options to stop you from even getting the mix of what you want? want to try and defend a 3rd on korhal? hf vs chargelot archon. wanna thor his ass? enjoy watching a 50/150 unit take away 500hp in the blink of an eye with feedback.

and that's just the army issues, not getting into the problems of gas: you need at least 3 bases to have enough production to not DIE, but it is completely impractical to try and defend everything when:

a) tanks always have to be in the PERFECT position
b) hellions no good vs blink stalkers (or stalkers in general, only good for run-bys)
c) hellions and tanks both suck against archons anyway, which can tank 1000000000 shots from a planetary and just make your life miserable (since all the gas you are mining will be dumped into tanks/vikings and maybe thors)

give mech another try when heart of the swarm is released, dont bother until then.

[dippa]

oh, and to quantify why tanks were better in original BW:

70 damage in siege mode

sc2?

35 damage to light units, or in other words, about 6 shots to kill a single zealot.

not worth it.

Quick Comments

EveMassacrisM:

Doesn't bw tank only do full 70(or 75?) dmg to mech ? It only does half of that which is around 37 to bio i believe.

[HuT]

Originally Posted by dippa

oh, and to quantify why tanks were better in original BW:

70 damage in siege mode

sc2?

35 damage to light units, or in other words, about 6 shots to kill a single zealot.

not worth it.

this x100, forgot to mention.

The problem with mech isnt killing of the armoured shit (immortals, stalkers etc), it's killing off shit that ISN'T armoured. Chargelot Archon is super ridiculous in this regard, because guess what Protoss do lategame after they trade? Max the **** out on Chargelot Archon which takes bugger all damage from Tanks.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[Malik]

Originally Posted by SQL.HuT

this x100, forgot to mention.

The problem with mech isnt killing of the armoured shit (immortals, stalkers etc), it's killing off shit that ISN'T armoured. Chargelot Archon is super ridiculous in this regard, because guess what Protoss do lategame after they trade? Max the **** out on Chargelot Archon which takes bugger all damage from Tanks.

kinda a common misconception is that tanks did 70 damage to zealots in BW they actually do 35 damage per shot as it is classed as explosive and zealots are small units (therefore there is a -50% modiyer applied).

BTW ghost BFH = terrible terrible damage

in any case the main issue isnt mech vs P deathball its the economic ability to do this off a limited number of bases (relative to how much gas that needs to be gathered) which reduces the terrans ability to harrass with hellions. This means that P can take a limited number of bases max out and or create the perfect composition combine this witht the fact that pylons can just warp in on ur front door + the slow build up time of mech means Terran be dead yo.

read this for more info

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=321242

Quick Comments

	syfCabracan:	Yea, good point on the attack types, dragoons also did 1/2 damage to marines etc.
	EveMassacrisM:	I shoulda read the whole thread b4 commenting :p

[simon]

as i was saying in the chatbox the nerf to blue flame was massive for mech. not to mention thors returning to energy based. even though mech wasnt strong to begin with blizzard has directly and indirectly nerfed mech over the past 12 months.

[sRDreaM]

I think adding mech units such as Raven/Viking/BC into the Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Ghost composition would benefit us alot more then going pure mech itself in late games. Like HuT said once toss trade with you they max out Chargelot and Archon really quickly and they would gladly trade zealots for tanks&hellions also it's way to gas intensive to build alot of factory vs gateways to quickly remax.

[nGenLight]

mech has no weakness, mech is the best.

Quick Comments

	dippa:	stop trying to con people into giving you free wins -_-
	ProAnnn:	no weakness yeah!!!
	x5.NotoriouS:

[TAScarecrow]

mech's just underused cause bio's so OP

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

mech is slightly less op than bio

[ROOT`iaguz]

God ******* dammit somehow this is turning into a real thread. Look we even have a poll!

MECH DOES NOT WORK. YOU ARE WASTING PRECIOUS TIME AND LADDER POINTS BY DOING IT INSTEAD OF BIO. IT'S NOT UNDERUSED OR ANYTHING, IT GOT USED AND THEN TERRANS LEARNED THAT MECH UNITS ARE UTTER TRASH THAT CANNOT KILL ANYTHING PROTOSS BECAUSE UNLIKE MECH VS ZERG AND MECH VS TERRAN WHEN YOU GET LIKE 15 SIEGE TANKS INSTEAD OF KILLING EVERYTHING, PROTOSS JUST LAUGH AT THAT AND A MOVE IT WITH IMMORTALS, CHARGELOTS AND ARCHONS. WHAT, 35 DAMAGE TO ONE 350 SHIELD ARCHON? THAT SOUNDS LIKE EFFICIENCY TO ME!

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

Bearded, wise man.

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

God ******* dammit somehow this is turning into a real thread. Look we even have a poll!

MECH DOES NOT WORK. YOU ARE WASTING PRECIOUS TIME AND LADDER POINTS BY DOING IT INSTEAD OF BIO. IT'S NOT UNDERUSED OR ANYTHING, IT GOT USED AND THEN TERRANS LEARNED THAT MECH UNITS ARE UTTER TRASH THAT CANNOT KILL ANYTHING PROTOSS BECAUSE UNLIKE MECH VS ZERG AND MECH VS TERRAN WHEN YOU GET LIKE 15 SIEGE TANKS INSTEAD OF KILLING EVERYTHING, PROTOSS JUST LAUGH AT THAT AND A MOVE IT WITH IMMORTALS, CHARGELOTS AND ARCHONS. WHAT, 35 DAMAGE TO ONE 350 SHIELD ARCHON? THAT SOUNDS LIKE EFFICIENCY TO ME!

That poll has been there ever since I made this thread. Why complain about it now? O.o

[WaGGlez]

In early - mid game I like going marines and siege tanks and it works fine, but late game I don't see mech working at all.

[ROOT`iaguz]

They did do 70 damage to their 50 shields though. Really it's hard to compare tank damage because of the way units path and clump in this game compared to BW, Speedlots were very good vs tanks in BW though (we did have vultures and wonderful mines to counteract this though)

[Malik]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

They did do 70 damage to their 50 shields though. Really it's hard to compare tank damage because of the way units path and clump in this game compared to BW, Speedlots were overpowered vs everything in BW though (we did have vultures and wonderful mines to counteract this though)

i think you made a mistake with ur original post I fixed it for you ^^

[nGenLight]

To be perfectly honest, pure mech is pretty bad, some mech units work very well with your standard bio, not going into detail, refuse to help you terran fukers, you guys no mother.

Quick Comments

	faithHunter:	Why not? :(
	AxS.Sorathez:	Trololol

[VB_Rhuubarb]

I have got Mech TvP to work offracing in diamond, so anything I say probably won't work (or be relevent) above that.

Having said that, I find the trick to it is early game cloak banshees with marines and thors to defend until about 10 minutes when you can transition into virtually pure mech (with banshees). The trick to surviving most early attacks is just observer sniping with thors which usually ends up with protoss losing everything to banshees.

Admittedly, I get a lot of wins cause my opponents don't know what to do, but then again neither do I late game. Guides on TL say transitioning to Raven/BC with tank/ghost/thor support is the way to go, but I haven't got that far yet.

The reason I go mech though, is because I find it fun, and I don't really enjoy playing bio.

[Next_rim]

Having said that, I find the trick to it is early game cloak banshees with marines and thors to defend until about 10 minutes

To defend? I lost to that shit recently, thor + scv repair is strong offense.

[Xeen]

Lategame P can warp 20 gateway units anywhere on the map to reinforce, using warpgates that can be built anywhere on the map, and you want to use a less mobile army?

Sounds good!

[Crankenstein]

I've had success with incorporating siege tanks into a powerful timing attack (such as the 2/2/2) especially on maps where you are able to abuse positioning like the cliff on TDA or any map where you can siege the natural and have the front of the main/ramp covered at the same time with high ground vision provided by banshees.

I've also had success with incorporating 3/4 tanks into my composition early game in order to deny a greedy 3rd like supernova just did in Code S and like MKP and Gumiho have done in the past.

Beyond that I think mech is pretty awful. Listen to HuT and Iaguz... run away.

[ROOT`iaguz]

There are definitely a shitload of cool plays you can do with units that come out of the factory. Some of them even involve taking a bunch of bases! A lot of these are either heavily timing attack focused (eg, we get X tanks and X marines and we go win/lose the game) or they are transition focused (eg, I'm going to make 5 tanks, pretend to push out to pressure, then stop making tanks and get a 3rd and play regular bio. With these tanks my defense against shenanigans is bolstered tremendously, and by faking a timing and transitioning well I can hopefully trick an opponent into goofing up somehow, yay mindgames).

Generally a lot of factory based TvP plays fizzle out as the Protoss death ball becomes far too resistant to tank fire and chews through marines like no-ones business. Fortunately there's plenty of ways to win before that happens!

One of the other big reasons pure mech TvP sucks too is that blue flames are really bad at defeating zealots. Better just get marines anyway it turns out.

Quick Comments

Crankenstein:

[VB_Rhuubarb]

I've been watching the replays from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=323003

While it's not pure factory units (pure hellion/tank/thor), the end game army is non bio + ghosts. For those thinking about watching the replays but not sure what to expect. The general theme was during the late game, the player would have a maxed army that consisted of some mix of hellions/tanks/thors/banshees/ravens/battlecruisers and plays a completely passive style (he never attacks with his entire army).

The protosses would admittedly engage fairly badly and get owned, and eventually the mech player would get in such a good position that the protoss just gave up. I find that this player respond quickly to incursions on the minimap and has good tank/ghost control (aka doesn't forget to siege like me, and his ghost usage minimises the effects of HTs).

Here is my most recent attempt of doing the style on ladder:
http://www.sc2sea.com/attachment.php...1&d=1333631584

[Next_rim]

I've been watching the replays from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=323003

Went there, joined channel, found a master player there to test it out. Link to replay below.

http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=712

General thoughts - it's map dependent, and feedback is op.

[VB_Rhuubarb]

I watched the replay, and it shows that you need ghosts with this style. The guy build no ghosts the entire game and got wrecked as you said by HT. I've found that between sensor towers, tanks and ghosts, HTs are not as effective as they were for you Next_Rim.

Also I think the style has to be played in a more 'deathbally' passive than your opponent played. Multiple times he sent groups of units (like 10 tanks by themselves, then 5 BCs) on 'solo' missions. For me, I've found the strength in going 'Mech' is that a mixed army of hellions/tanks/thors/banshees/ravens/battlecruisers/ghosts is VERY cost efficient, but having a mixture like just tank/hellion, or just BC, is pretty bad.

[Next_rim]

I watched the replay, and it shows that you need ghosts with this style. The guy build no ghosts the entire game and got wrecked as you said by HT.

True, he needed ghosts really bad. However, 90% of his failure was general positioning. This map is meant to put a forward 4th at a disadvantage, so you need to expand vertical. He chose the forward base and got punished by it with cliff abuse. Basically, after he expanded there, I already had the game. There was exactly 0 chance for him to take a 5th. Even if he were bio, forward base is such a bad choice in pvt here.

[ROOT`iaguz]

ARGH.

YOU WANT ANOTHER REASON WHY MECH SUCKS? IT'S BECAUSE BLUE FLAMES SUCK AND THERE'S THIS OTHER UNIT CALLED THE MARINE WHICH COSTS ONLY MINERALS ARE ARE VASTLY SUPERIOR TO BLUE FLAMES FOR BIG MECH PLAYS EXCEPT YOU KNOW WHAT WE CAN DO WITH MARINES? WE CAN GET CHEAP UPGRADES (which is sick) AND WE CAN DECIDE RANDOMLY THAT IT WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER IDEA TO JUST DROP THIS WHOLE PRETENCE OF GOING MECH FOR A LIVING, THROW DOWN A BUNCH OF RAX AND A STARPORT AND PLAY BIO LIKE GOD (aka David Kim) INTENDED.

[Next_rim]

GOD (aka David Kim)

Can it be...oh my!

[DtorR]

Can you show a replay of why mech sucks, from you Iaguz? Some people aren't convinced by your words.

[TNSkywolve]

Hey ppl!,

Just to help out fellow SC2 players.. The thing about mech play in TVP mid-late game is that, you HAVE TO CONTROL THE MATCH IF YOU ARE GOING FOR MECH!..the only reason you're going mech is to break your opponents forces/defense after so long..bear in mind that your army should not just pure bio or heavy mech.. e.g 'You have your marine marauder ball and going in to pressure early(8-10mins).. protoss defend. you retreat..get some medi and try again..should you fail..for your next wave(15++ mins) get some tanks for splash dmg or any other mech that you think should be helpful' ..this way you are forcing the protoss player to counter tech..he will get immortals etc.. this is where your marines marauders will be helpful.. should you fail to break the opponent with your mech and bio build.. resort to special tactics..ghost,drops, multi pronged attack. Above all, when fighting a TVP. you should be wary of the opps tech! and counter them.. this has alot to do with the player themselves..practice makes perfect! anyway I don't recommend heavy mech play against protoss since terran unit production rate is slow(compare protoss warp tech and terran have to queue units)

Hope this helps for all ^-^
Btw I'm a protoss player! ^-^ GL HF!

[Next_rim]

Hey ppl!,

Just to help out fellow SC2 players.. The thing about mech play in TVP mid-late game is that, you HAVE TO CONTROL THE MATCH IF YOU ARE GOING FOR MECH!..the only reason you're going mech is to break your opponents forces/defense after so long..bear in mind that your army should not just pure bio or heavy mech.. e.g 'You have your marine marauder ball and going in to pressure early(8-10mins).. protoss defend. you retreat..get some medi and try again..should you fail..for your next wave(15++ mins) get some tanks for splash dmg or any other mech that you think should be helpful' ..this way you are forcing the protoss player to counter tech..he will get immortals etc.. this is where your marines marauders will be helpful.. should you fail to break the opponent with your mech and bio build.. resort to special tactics..ghost,drops, multi pronged attack. Above all, when fighting a TVP. you should be wary of the opps tech! and counter them.. this has alot to do with the player themselves..practice makes perfect! anyway I don't recommend heavy mech play against protoss since terran unit production rate is slow(compare protoss warp tech and terran have to queue units)

Hope this helps for all ^-^
Btw I'm a protoss player! ^-^ GL HF!

wtf have I just read

[ROOT`iaguz]

...

Disregard everything that guy said.

[TNSkywolve]

sry then..my context is very complex.. alot of ppl wont understand me(proven)..

anyway GL with the weakness of mech in TVP.. just compensate that weakness properly and you'll be fine..

STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND!?? THEN WATCH SOME VIDEO GUIDES!(Day9 etc)..

GL HF! ^-^

[ROOT`iaguz]

No, it's not because you're too intelligent it's because your post is very poorly laid out. Maybe english isn't your strong suit and that's fine, but I can't see how anyone could read your post and extract any useful information out of it.

Also, you are in silver league. Mech works there not because it's an intelligent strategy but because people in silver have such sloppy mechanics that you can do pretty much any strategy and it will work and it doesn't mean it's the correct one.

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	LOL loving all of thigs
	TABjornbrandr:	I love you

[simon]

why the **** is this thread still active????????????

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by simon

why the **** is this thread still active????????????

Because some people are still trying to explore mech in TvP, and that's fine.

[VB_Rhuubarb]

EDIT: Sorry for bump, but I thought this was relevant and I feel strongly about Mech TvP

ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games.

He was doing an 8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions.

Some of the games I have watched so far:

+ [Spoilers] +

Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down

You Tube

You Tube

Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost.

You Tube

You Tube

[fur]

Originally Posted by VB_Rhuubarb

EDIT: Sorry for bump, but I thought this was relevant and I feel strongly about Mech TvP

ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games.

He was doing an 8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions.

Some of the games I have watched so far:

+ [Spoilers] +

Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpihW...eature=g-all-u

Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i73iu...eature=g-all-u

Interesting. He uses the exact same opening that Goody used to use when he still Meched. The point of difference was that he took an extremely fast 3rd CC (there was a massive window where I feel the protoss could have punched through, however he didn't), and used A LOT more Hellions than Goody ever did.

When he took his 3rd it was 2 tech labbed facts and 3 reactored. His Hellion harass was exemplary and he nailed about 40 probes before he ever pushed out.

This is an interesting idea.

The reason Mech stopped working (yes it once worked, despite it's many flaws) was the blue flame nerf. Immortals/Archons/Voids etc aren't you real problem when you mech. They're all very counterable with good EMP usage. Zealots are the problem.

Zealots eat tankshots for breakfast and bathe in blue flame. The fuckers just don't die to mech, and the protoss will be re-spawning these bastards 20 at a time late game while you wait an eternity to remax. Hack in the Ohana game was able to forge an economic lead and grind it out with simply ridiculous numbers of Hellions. So I guess it can still work.

Worth noting, however, was that despite his probe kills and excellent use of PDD and EMP the Units Lost count was pretty much even all game. It's not the highly efficient deathball it is Vs. Zerg and Terran.

[VB_Rhuubarb]

Originally Posted by fur

Interesting. He uses the exact same opening that Goody used to use when he still Meched. The point of difference was that he took an extremely fast 3rd CC (there was a massive window where I feel the protoss could have punched through, however he didn't), and used A LOT more Hellions than Goody ever did.

When he took his 3rd it was 2 tech labbed facts and 3 reactored. His Hellion harass was exemplary and he nailed about 40 probes before he ever pushed out.

This is an interesting idea.

The reason Mech stopped working (yes it once worked, despite it's many flaws) was the blue flame nerf. Immortals/Archons/Voids etc aren't you real problem when you mech. They're all very counterable with good EMP usage. Zealots are the problem.

Zealots eat tankshots for breakfast and bathe in blue flame. The fuckers just don't die to mech, and the protoss will be re-spawning these bastards 20 at a time late game while you wait an eternity to remax. Hack in the Ohana game was able to forge an economic lead and grind it out with simply ridiculous numbers of Hellions. So I guess it can still work.

Worth noting, however, was that despite his probe kills and excellent use of PDD and EMP the Units Lost count was pretty much even all game. It's not the highly efficient deathball it is Vs. Zerg and Terran.

If you ever are waiting an eternity (more than 2 production rounds) to remax as mech you've lost unless you are way ahead on eco (like Hack vs Lure). This hellion style allows you to remax faster than other more turtley-tech styles, but those styles trade better also (assuming you don't **** the engagement).

With the turtle style you replace you losses (generally hellions and couple of banshees) with things like ghosts/ravens/BCs while keeping your tank count around 10-12 on your 'remax' (which is generally just 1 round of production as with most 200/200 battles you lose like 50 supply while they upwards of 100). Eventually you get something similar to the GSL finals game on Metropolis, but you don't let them vortex you! (Well to be honest I don't make THAT many BCs (20) and still have several tanks while having the ghost/raven/banshee/1 or 2 thors mixture/vikings iff needed)

The hellion style seems more reliant on doing economic damage during the midgame, but also has the potential to do that, unlike the turtle style, which just sits there and acquires a balanced army which trades super well.

I can guarantee that mech works up to (including) diamond as I've been doing it for 2 seasons. So anyone who wants to try mech (for whatever reason... sick of bio vP lategame) but is used to bio should try Hacks style as it is a lot more 'like bio' than the turtle styles, which is more like playing the campaign mission where you just try to survive for 30 (blizzard) minutes. I just chose to share this (the hack games) as it's definitely the highest level tourney mech vP that I've seen in a while.

[fur]

Originally Posted by VB_Rhuubarb

If you ever are waiting an eternity (more than 2 production rounds) to remax as mech you've lost unless you are way ahead on eco (like Hack vs Lure). This hellion style allows you to remax faster than other more turtley-tech styles, but those styles trade better also (assuming you don't **** the engagement).

With the turtle style you replace you losses (generally hellions and couple of banshees) with things like ghosts/ravens/BCs while keeping your tank count around 10-12 on your 'remax' (which is generally just 1 round of production as with most 200/200 battles you lose like 50 supply while they upwards of 100). Eventually you get something similar to the GSL finals game on Metropolis, but you don't let them vortex you! (Well to be honest I don't make THAT many BCs (20) and still have several tanks while having the ghost/raven/banshee/1 or 2 thors mixture/vikings iff needed)

The hellion style seems more reliant on doing economic damage during the midgame, but also has the potential to do that, unlike the turtle style, which just sits there and acquires a balanced army which trades super well.

I can guarantee that mech works up to (including) diamond as I've been doing it for 2 seasons. So anyone who wants to try mech (for whatever reason... sick of bio vP lategame) but is used to bio should try Hacks style as it is a lot more 'like bio' than the turtle styles, which is more like playing the campaign mission where you just try to survive for 30 (blizzard) minutes. I just chose to share this (the hack games) as it's definitely the highest level tourney mech vP that I've seen in a while.

It can work at many levels as Hack has shown. I've won at mid/high master using it and Avilo still does it occasionally at GM level on NA. It does, however, have a fuckton of deficiencies that really need to be pointed out to anyone who thinks it might be the answer to there TvP woes.

Namely, it's not going to be the protoss death ball killer that we all wish it was. Hack plays it so well, and relies on doing a heap of damage through harass/clever openings and then grinds the protoss down. Much like you would do with Bio really.

Because of that it's at best a nice curiosity to throw into a series.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by fur

When he took his 3rd it was 2 tech labbed facts and 3 reactored. His Hellion harass was exemplary and he nailed about 40 probes before he ever pushed out.

Honestly, if you're killing that many probes, you can probably win with whatever you want.

The other thing with 'meching' against protoss, I think, is that you need air units (banshees/vikings) and ghosts to beat gateway/robo armies (archons/immortals/colo/chargelots) which means protoss gets fast 3/3 with chrono, and you never really get 3/3 on all your units regardless (unless you can afford 4 armories or something dumb).

3/3/3 protoss units are -good- against 2/2 or so mech.

[fur]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Honestly, if you're killing that many probes, you can probably win with whatever you want.

The other thing with 'meching' against protoss, I think, is that you need air units (banshees/vikings) and ghosts to beat gateway/robo armies (archons/immortals/colo/chargelots) which means protoss gets fast 3/3 with chrono, and you never really get 3/3 on all your units regardless (unless you can afford 4 armories or something dumb).

3/3/3 protoss units are -good- against 2/2 or so mech.

He probably wouldn't have gotten that many probe kills without blue flame, but your point is valid. It's definitely a build designed to punish the kind of protoss that does pretty much nothing but expand and defend. He takes a lot of risks to assemble his death ball, and then it's not really that much stronger than if he were playing straight bio.

[ETL.ViTaL]

Mech doesn't work in TvP

[Fairyking]

I got beat by a Thor/Banshee comp one game haha, wasn't really sure how to deal with it. Tried immortal blink stalker. No go.

Quick Comments

	ProAnnn:	u need shitton of HTs to storm and feedback stuff, immortal vs thorrs and a handful of stalkers to clear banshees
	VB_Blake:	that was me :D also had some marines and a few marauders

[ETL.ViTaL]

wow watched SThack that was actually pretty cool the ghosts emped and then the immortals archons were naked without shields and the charge lots were cleaned up by hellions. That actually good work lol

[x5.RunaMoK]

i've meched alot in t v p.
and basically it's very map dependant.
its very positional based.
and helion harass is essential! you need early advantage. need to abuse poor protoss sim city.

then what i find most problemantic in t v p mech is gateway reinforcements.
the easiest way ive learnt to deal with this is nukes.

basicly ill move up when im maxed and adding 2 addition factories to support 4+ base mech play i get 3 nuke silo's since i love ghost's in mech.
siege up a protoss base or get into a engagement. and while thats happening drop ghost's in their base and literally remove all the gateways. most times you trade 300/300 for least 10 + gate pylons and surrounding tech.
or protoss use their gates to wall / sim city and you nuke even more.

but helion harass is defiantly the key.

[mGGMueX]

It seems to me that with good EMPs over the entire protoss army, mech can be very effective. With something like 10 Ghosts, you can constantly deny storms, feedbacks and most importantly the shields of the protoss units. This nullifies Archons, HTs and Sentries, makes Immortals easy to kill with tanks (4 shot kill) and makes zealots easy to kill with blue flame hellions (5 shot kill).

[faithHunter]

I also had this game where I was going mech against a toss in TvP with this Hellion style of play. I used them to snipe HTs and kite chargelots. Now the only problem is that their Collosi can just rip through everything I have :/

[water666]

can we make this thread active again im enjoying the lulz! i beleive in mech!

Quick Comments

Zepph:

No.