[NioXin]

Hi there, I have recently found myself playing around with the SC2 Editor lately. After tinkering around with it for a few weeks and rough sketching some ideas, I have finally put together a 1v1 map that I am now ready to share and get game play feedback on.

I am thus far pretty happy with the lay out of expansions, and over all look and feel, but it needs some play time for balancing the races on it. There's still a few texture blending and doodads to make look pretty but for my 1st map I think I've done ok and before I clean up the little things, but in case major changes are needed its been opened for testing.

So please, give it a try, play all match ups on it and let me know what good or bad in this forum post. Or if you happen to catch me on b.net

Search for map name "Moebius Territory"

Keep in mind this is my 1st ever map ever on any game, so be kind plz, GL HF and get back to me ♥

Quick Comments

AlopexToT:

great effort

[ToRDarKnoob]

it looks pretty sick but its a bit small prone to rushes and it looks bad for zerg with all the chokes i may try it some time to see if my guess is true but it is nice from top view!

[SLCN.Kez]

Ok, here are the biggest problems that are HUGEEEEEEE:
1: With 2 entrances into the main base its COMPLETELY unviable. Any type of 6 pool will be impossible to stop since you cant wall it off, I advise putting dustin browder rocks at the backside entrance.

2: the 3rd looks a lil too easy to hold, maybe widen the back part a lil bit and then since there will be rocks protecting the backside of the main remove the rocks protecting the gold to add ease getting to main base rocks and then easier to attack 3rd base.

3: Back the defensive high ground up a lil bit defending the gold rocks. I feel it will be too easy to put a tank or 2 up there and have the gold very easy to defend, and then the gold is quite close to where the enemies 4th would be if they dont take their respective gold base.

4: I think there is TOO much dead space between the natural and the natural ramp and the 3rd base ramp. Protoss and terran rely a lot on holding chokes near or around their natural, but im not sure if this will actually end up being a big deal or not but i think it might be, i havnt actually played games on it yet sorry, just loaded up a custom on it and walked around. The problem with it being so far away is there are 3 entrances so setting up at the ramps is too hard and they are too far away to set up at ur natural as theres just too much room everywhere.

5:not that it makes a difference at the moment since its far away from the nat but the ramps leading up to natural from 3rd and other ramps are abusable to put a bunker in front of them and put a marine behind it (similar to entombed valley)

This is about all i can see atm, for reference im high master zerg but i have off raced protoss too and know a lot about the game so yeh.

good luck on contact me on twitter @heyitskez if u wanna set up somethign for more feedback!

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by kez

Ok, here are the biggest problems that are HUGEEEEEEE:
1: With 2 entrances into the main base its COMPLETELY unviable. Any type of 6 pool will be impossible to stop since you cant wall it off, I advise putting dustin browder rocks at the backside entrance.

This! Rocks would be great sollution as I like the idea of having the double entrance come into play later in the game

Originally Posted by kez

2: the 3rd looks a lil too easy to hold, maybe widen the back part a lil bit and then since there will be rocks protecting the backside of the main remove the rocks protecting the gold to add ease getting to main base rocks and then easier to attack 3rd base.

I think that's part of the character of the map. It is so easy to take and hold bases, so it enourages long drawn out macro games.

Originally Posted by kez

3: Back the defensive high ground up a lil bit defending the gold rocks. I feel it will be too easy to put a tank or 2 up there and have the gold very easy to defend, and then the gold is quite close to where the enemies 4th would be if they dont take their respective gold base.

This is a pretty good point. This makes it uber turtley

I haven't had the chance to try it out (am at work right now) but I'm keen to give it a crack. Overall I love the look/feel, I hope you are going to be doing more!

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by breadfan

This! Rocks would be great sollution as I like the idea of having the double entrance come into play later in the game


I think that's part of the character of the map. It is so easy to take and hold bases, so it enourages long drawn out macro games.

Also, your right on the money here, it is kinda the style or character of this map, the idea was to give a fairly juicy looking 3rd while giving the attacker and way to get in there later, or you could defend your front and break to back sets of rock to take a 4th which is easy to defend with high ground near by and a Xel'naga tower for vision. But all this could very well play out quite differently, only play time will tell.

[NioXin]

Hi thanks guys, I totally forgot the 6 pool : Um ,so I put a rock s at the back of base ramp.. This is actually how I did have it on e an early version.

I just moved the gold base. Very good point about the tank and uber turtle power. Gold is now over further and has been replaced by a regular mineral base, I also closed the ramp near by.

Another small change is the run by beside the natutals ramp with the half rocks. The choke is now smaller to help against run bys. I still want this here for access to 4th and 5th and to make opportunity vs turtley player.

If you have any friends who'd like to try it please go for it and update me.. Thanks again

[SLCN.Kez]

yeah i like it, i just think its a lil TOO closed off, and giving terran/toss pretty free 3 bases whilst a relatively unsafe 4th/5th for zerg is asking for some seirous trouble lol >.< will check update version later on

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by kez

yeah i like it, i just think its a lil TOO closed off, and giving terran/toss pretty free 3 bases whilst a relatively unsafe 4th/5th for zerg is asking for some seirous trouble lol >.< will check update version later on

Good point, the choke/run-by path beside the natural is meant to make the 3 bases a bit more scarey to hold... I am trying to balance this with the size of the choke, and maybe rock or not at the ramp itself. Give it a play with friends and see if how you go.

[TADivinity]

I think you have come up with something really quite creative - well done!
Although I would most likely veto this as Zerg - Basically for the reason Kez has said.

Especially in ZvP. The Protoss can practically take an easy 9:00 / 10:00 minute (early) third, and should be able to go unpunished because of the small chokes. Especially against a ground based Zerg army

[NioXin]

Thanks Divinity, I am trying to think of ways to help zergs on going expanding. I kinda am thinking that with there easy 3rd they will get faster map control anyway. But I do have that in mind, and will wait for play tests results.

I am also toying with the idea to remove the lower rocks into the 3rd back door to give more harassment opportunities for all races. That way you need to have good mini map watching/scouting to prevent it. Its not a novice map, but that's the point I think, hoping it'll force a few different strats, but remain a mid to late game map. Having said that, on all maps there are ways to abuse the terrain, some things that cannot be accounted for so easily.

[framtidenskrig]

Really good for terran, bad for zerg. I dont like the rock, maps with backdoor is pretty bad in my opinion... Make it more open and some different ways of attacking + surrounding...

[faithHunter]

I have an idea regarding the back ramp on your first base. Why not remove it but keep the "back path" so that the enemy can destroy it and head straight for your third? That gives the enemy another attack path aside from the one next to your natural. Also, give some space from the back path from your base so that Tanks won't be able to abuse the low ground.

I made an analysis of the map on how Terran can abuse some features of the map, and how Zerg are put at a disadvantage when facing an opponent that are on the same features of the map. But sadly, there's only so much a Silver knows about the game, so please excuse me if I made some mistakes on the analysis.

[NioXin]

Thanks Noezxa. Detail is good. Um, I have made changes since. The side towers are deliberately given for defence cos I wanted and easier 4th base, and if you take that the back ramp into mains are protected. I have recently one ramp there so that it safer to hold. Yes terran can siege there, but if you get to that late of game vs terran, it'll be his 4th and you should have broods by then. This map is not for n00bs I'll admit that. You need good scouting and position to be safe to expand beyond 3rd base. But am trying to balance the outa expansions, hence removing Gold and a ramp.

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by NioXin

Thanks Noezxa. Detail is good. Um, I have made changes since. The side towers are deliberately given for defence cos I wanted and easier 4th base, and if you take that the back ramp into mains are protected. I have recently one ramp there so that it safer to hold. Yes terran can siege there, but if you get to that late of game vs terran, it'll be his 4th and you should have broods by then. This map is not for n00bs I'll admit that. You need good scouting and position to be safe to expand beyond 3rd base. But am trying to balance the outa expansions, hence removing Gold and a ramp.

OK. BTW, I think you said in your 1st post that you released this map on the SEA server right? I'll be trying it out, then

[NioXin]

Sorry I've been moving house and extremely busy at work.

Made some more dramatic changes to the map today.

Here are some pictures. I removed the back door main ramp, and the rocks. Also, the high ground in mid (to avoid terran high ground holds) and instead has a fancy water feature with a terran statue marking his territory (see in pik) So, search for 'Moebuis Territory' and try it out plox.

Quick Comments

	sRDreaM:	Omg the marine fountain was awesome
	asdfSchnitzel:
	faithHunter:	The marine statue makes this map imbalanced for Terran

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by NioXin

Sorry I've been moving house and extremely busy at work.

Made some more dramatic changes to the map today.

Here are some pictures. I removed the back door main ramp, and the rocks. Also, the high ground in mid (to avoid terran high ground holds) and instead has a fancy water feature with a terran statue marking his territory (see in pik) So, search for 'Moebuis Territory' and try it out plox.

Lol at the marine fountain.

Anyway, I've tried the map a couple of weeks ago, and I have to say that the natural expansion is too wide IMO, for a natural expansion anyway. Other than that, I like the revisions that you made, especially removing the back ramp, the center ramp, AND the marine fountain.

Seriously. The marine fountain is so good and creative. Blizzard should've put that fountain on Metalopolis instead of a Mengsk statue.

And excuse me for not noticing this earlier, but I feel that the 4th will be REALLY hard to defend :/

[NioXin]

Heres newer overview picture. Note, No Gold. Ramp gone near tower at side. Larger more open choke there also. Outside corner expansions have more space.

[NioXin]

Thanks. The fourth is meant to be harder, but my thinking is that by the time you have 3 bases you should be getting a pretty big army and muscle you way out, as zerg this can be harder, but I feel thats where you should be taking advantage of couter attack paths to pull your enemy back giving a chance to expand. The only thing I can do is make the outer corner expansion further in the corner. But need play time on it to really sus this out.

[MaTterJunKie]

I like the map, played it a couple of times, so here are my comments:

1) There are too many chokes, really ff favored and not too easy for zerg. The third is a nice place, but there should be rocks there instead of a wide open ramp. I suggest you expand the map or you can make it sort of like Antiga Shipyard and make it a 4 person map.

2) The map maybe a little too easy to drop in, but I don't really know about that.

3)You should add more Xel naga towers, and maybe some bushes for the middle, because most of the battles tend to happen on the main ramp of someones base.

Other than that, great map, my friends and I really enjoyed it

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by MaTterJunKie

I like the map, played it a couple of times, so here are my comments:

1) There are too many chokes, really ff favored and not too easy for zerg. The third is a nice place, but there should be rocks there instead of a wide open ramp. I suggest you expand the map or you can make it sort of like Antiga Shipyard and make it a 4 person map.

2) The map maybe a little too easy to drop in, but I don't really know about that.

3)You should add more Xel naga towers, and maybe some bushes for the middle, because most of the battles tend to happen on the main ramp of someones base.

Other than that, great map, my friends and I really enjoyed it

Thanks mate great to hear you liked it, I had couple fun games last night myself on it... FYI the previous version had high ground ramps and with nice gardens in mid, but there were concerns from other that this made it a terran tank haven. I agreed and changed it to a water feature no high ground advantage. I will pretty the mid up but I do that after it play well otherwise you spend to much time making things pretty and then changing later. With FF vs toss, it used to be really open in mid, then way to choked, its funny what some ppl consider to open others like and visa versa. There are so many couter attack paths around most of the chokes now that zerg can zoom around these, with out them its way to scary to expand out to the map, it would just make it a 3 base turtle fest otherwise. What you think?

[Next_rim]

Sorry I've been moving house and extremely busy at work.

Made some more dramatic changes to the map today.

Here are some pictures. I removed the back door main ramp, and the rocks. Also, the high ground in mid (to avoid terran high ground holds) and instead has a fancy water feature with a terran statue marking his territory (see in pik) So, search for 'Moebuis Territory' and try it out plox.

I see two problems with the newest version:

[Slayar]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I see two problems with the newest version:

Zerg would need to have units sitting on that narrow tip at the top of the main because if T got eight marines and a medivac there zerglings wouldn't be able to take it. The rines could keep running out and shooting the drones at the nat from above and danced back into the corner everytime lings showed. If they got banelings you pick the rines up and drop them down the ledge. I think Z could only prepare by having a queen at the nat and third shooting the medivac so you could kill the rines with a bane but its pretty likely T would do the kill-timing drop and use that ledge as a fallback (no third at this point).

Love the map mate, keep up the wicked work. There's always this sort of balancing that affects a map after 1.0.

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by Slayar

Zerg would need to have units sitting on that narrow tip at the top of the main because if T got eight marines and a medivac there zerglings wouldn't be able to take it. The rines could keep running out and shooting the drones at the nat from above and danced back into the corner everytime lings showed. If they got banelings you pick the rines up and drop them down the ledge. I think Z could only prepare by having a queen at the nat and third shooting the medivac so you could kill the rines with a bane but its pretty likely T would do the kill-timing drop and use that ledge as a fallback (no third at this point).

Love the map mate, keep up the wicked work. There's always this sort of balancing that affects a map after 1.0.

Cool thanks bud, yeah I did that peak design cos I like it in Shakuras Plateau. Its still a risk for terran because you are surrounded easily on my map. Its something you need to be aware of on any map... Not only knowing what you race can abuse but also other races, and prepare, scout and army position to prevent. Thanks for feedback... GGGLHF

[x5_Potter]

I haven't played but looking at the pictures I feel the natural is the wrong side of the ramp. Looking at most maps the ramp flows down straight in to the natural base but in yours you have to sort of move around the corner first.

I think by expanding the natural outwards at the bushes in the corner and placing the minerals there, you could cut down the size of the extra little bit on the main to enlarge the ramp to the third.

I also think the position of the third would make it really hard to defend, as the distance between natural minerals and ramp to natural for the enemy is huge, and units could easily sneak through unseen if needed.

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by VB_Potthead

I think by expanding the natural outwards at the bushes in the corner and placing the minerals there, you could cut down the size of the extra little bit on the main to enlarge the ramp to the third.

I also think the position of the third would make it really hard to defend, as the distance between natural minerals and ramp to natural for the enemy is huge, and units could easily sneak through unseen if needed.

Making the ramp larger is something I have toyed with. if its small toss can ff to easy, but they need to for defense if counter into 3rd happens, but that brings me to you other point. The point of that back door is to allow an attack (rocks slow it down). Yes, if they are sneaky you lose your 3rd, but that's the idea, if you can lure or distract your enemy and get in there, well done your used as strategic manoeuvre to kill it. Map presence mini map awareness and scouting is the key to victory on this one. Just my train of thought, what you think?

[NioXin]

Hmm, yes drops are a strong consideration, its the reason I have a high wall protecting the 3rd, but if you are scouting enough, you should see it coming down the center of the map and take it out or setup static defenses. Its one of those things that needs testing (game play time)

As far as your other points, please consider expanding clockwise. I designed this map with the thinking that depending on your strat (long or short game) you choose either way. Clockwise you have more expansions going around toward oponent but increasing is difficulty, going the other way is possible but you need mid map lockdown... After a game I played last night as zerg, I was able to push my opponent back to his 3 easy defended (turtle 3 base) and that allowed to me take every expansion on the map, simply because I had the mid so covered. But he I've given so many counter attack paths that he could mount an attack if I hadn't killed him

Thanks, every feedback is important, also theres rocks on you RED route, this is simply to allow a counter attack vs a hard turtling player, it seems to work whether they turtle on 3 or 2 base as you can drop/ warp in from the ledge there.

[Next_rim]

As far as your other points, please consider expanding clockwise.

Doesn't matter, whoever controls the center has advantage over defender because of crooked pathing between bases, while center is a short straight line. No map should grant that kind of advantage.

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Doesn't matter, whoever controls the center has advantage over defender because of crooked pathing between bases, while center is a short straight line. No map should grant that kind of advantage.

So your saying that if you take mid you have more control... Inst that a part of a strategic manoeuvre in most cases, and therefore should have earned and deserve the upper hand for doing so?

Besides, my reasoning for having so many counter attack paths is to give the defender a "counter attack" option. But when I open up to many counter attack paths, other complain that its to much openness.

I have made enough changes to it to satisfy most need for each races. Just play the map then give feedback. Thanks all

[inFeZa]

Everytime i hear about making a map and things to do with map balance it always relates to "Bad for the Zerg"

Why does everything have to be changed for the good of the zerg?

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

Because protoss needs all the help it get right?

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by SQL.inFeZa

Everytime i hear about making a map and things to do with map balance it always relates to "Bad for the Zerg"

Why does everything have to be changed for the good of the zerg?

I hear ya there mate, initially it was Zerg saying my map is to imba vs terrans dropping. Well all races can drop. Just that Terran do it more often cos they pretty much rely on Medivacs for healing. Pros dont complain about it 'just saying'

[ToRDarKnoob]

get another ramp from main to 3ed and main move the ramp from natural to main next to the one to third get rid of ramp from natural to third and get double rocks from 3ed to forth (lots of tank rocks) get rid of the thing in middle and make the crevass between mid and 3edpossibly make the entire map a bit bigger

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by DarKnoob

get another ramp from main to 3ed and main move the ramp from natural to main next to the one to third get rid of ramp from natural to third and get double rocks from 3ed to forth (lots of tank rocks) get rid of the thing in middle and make the crevass between mid and 3edpossibly make the entire map a bit bigger

Dude your basically asking to change the whole map..
I used to have a ramp from main to 3rd. I have added rocks to 4th from nat. I think that what you were asking about.

You mostly make no sense. Can you use punctuation please to break up your sentences so I know when one idea starts and the next begins?

[ToRDarKnoob]

lol sorry about my poor english...

[Next_rim]

So your saying that if you take mid you have more control... Inst that a part of a strategic manoeuvre in most cases, and therefore should have earned and deserve the upper hand for doing so?

Not in sc2. For example, in PvZ current protoss units have very little capability to take and hold a position, unlike zerg highly mobile balls. Where terran can secure an area of the map with a siege line, protoss relies on spread out observers and slowly rolling tightly packed deathball, or fast, yet fragile blink stalker ball. Check out recent Heart vs DRG on Daybreak, where Heart would sit in mid map with a 200/200 stalker immortal ball, but still retreat at mere sight of DRG's roach pack to a more favorable choke closer to main, because there is no way even that direct counter can take on zerg's infinite production in such position.

Above being said, a map should grant a defender advantage in terms of walk distance between bases to prevent a high mobile and powerful army abusing the mere mechanics of the game (such is immortals being slow, and no other unit being capable of effectively deal with a roach ball). Attacker should never be able to move from main to 4th ramp faster than defender (save rare occasions).

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Above being said, a map should grant a defender advantage in terms of walk distance between bases to prevent a high mobile and powerful army abusing the mere mechanics of the game (such is immortals being slow, and no other unit being capable of effectively deal with a roach ball). Attacker should never be able to move from main to 4th ramp faster than defender (save rare occasions).

Interesting stuff about 4th base that i never considered, I am trying to design so there are more than 1 option for a 4th, like saying to yourself "do I expand clockwise or anti-clockwise" Its just a theory I have to making map more strategic and replayable, but apparently its tricky to balance. Really, this is my 1st ever map, so I think over all its above average. I have now started work on a 4v4 map and its fkn huge So when its close for a play test will have a new thread for it.

[TheGentleman]

When creating maps it's good to have a good understanding of how all three races work, it's hard to balance something when you don't know how to balance if you get what I'm saying.

Team liquid also has a vast selection of tips and tricks in their forum as well http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=44 (see the purple folders aka. sticky posts).

Also, a little trick I have. It looks like you've placed bases down where you want them to be then placed the minerals and gas around them wherever the SC2 editor will let you. What I've found neat is to open up a blizzard ladder map and copy the mineral/gas patches for use in your own map (Tal'Darim Alter has a large number of bases to choose from).

I also find it good to look at the different maps, especially those that are balanced, and to use them as a guide. You should also always pay attention to some "influencing factors" as I like to refer to them. 1. The Siege Tank, 2. Colossus, 3. Chokes (especially from a zergs perspective), 4. Air distance.

In saying the above, time for some more specific advice.

Your map is large, there is nothing wrong with this but the distance between your natural and 2nd base I feel is just a tad bit too large. This can be fixed by moving the mineral patches slightly closer to the centre of the base (not a drastic change) but it makes creep spread to the natural faster and therefore easier for the zerg player to defend against early air pressure with queens.

There are two potential forth bases for each base, I will be going from the perspective of the player spawning in the south-west position. The forths are located at the 9:00 position and the 6:00 position. In both cases you have to travel through a small choke to defend them if you are already at your natural or 3rd, either that or swing around a very large area around the front. There are so many chokes on this map around your bases that I consider moving around as either protoss or zerg to be nearly unreasonable.

Credit where it's due, you have done an amazing job on the textures especially since it's your first map so I want to congratulate you on that. I know my first map had a similar theme and was probably just as imbalanced but it was good fun and I hope you're enjoying it. Balance is difficult but you'll get the hang of it .

TLR? Sorry, I got carried away :P

Quick Comments

NioXin:

Thanx