[x5_Potter]

I haven't played but looking at the pictures I feel the natural is the wrong side of the ramp. Looking at most maps the ramp flows down straight in to the natural base but in yours you have to sort of move around the corner first.

I think by expanding the natural outwards at the bushes in the corner and placing the minerals there, you could cut down the size of the extra little bit on the main to enlarge the ramp to the third.

I also think the position of the third would make it really hard to defend, as the distance between natural minerals and ramp to natural for the enemy is huge, and units could easily sneak through unseen if needed.

[NioXin]

Hmm, yes drops are a strong consideration, its the reason I have a high wall protecting the 3rd, but if you are scouting enough, you should see it coming down the center of the map and take it out or setup static defenses. Its one of those things that needs testing (game play time)

As far as your other points, please consider expanding clockwise. I designed this map with the thinking that depending on your strat (long or short game) you choose either way. Clockwise you have more expansions going around toward oponent but increasing is difficulty, going the other way is possible but you need mid map lockdown... After a game I played last night as zerg, I was able to push my opponent back to his 3 easy defended (turtle 3 base) and that allowed to me take every expansion on the map, simply because I had the mid so covered. But he I've given so many counter attack paths that he could mount an attack if I hadn't killed him

Thanks, every feedback is important, also theres rocks on you RED route, this is simply to allow a counter attack vs a hard turtling player, it seems to work whether they turtle on 3 or 2 base as you can drop/ warp in from the ledge there.

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by VB_Potthead

I think by expanding the natural outwards at the bushes in the corner and placing the minerals there, you could cut down the size of the extra little bit on the main to enlarge the ramp to the third.

I also think the position of the third would make it really hard to defend, as the distance between natural minerals and ramp to natural for the enemy is huge, and units could easily sneak through unseen if needed.

Making the ramp larger is something I have toyed with. if its small toss can ff to easy, but they need to for defense if counter into 3rd happens, but that brings me to you other point. The point of that back door is to allow an attack (rocks slow it down). Yes, if they are sneaky you lose your 3rd, but that's the idea, if you can lure or distract your enemy and get in there, well done your used as strategic manoeuvre to kill it. Map presence mini map awareness and scouting is the key to victory on this one. Just my train of thought, what you think?

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by MaTterJunKie

I like the map, played it a couple of times, so here are my comments:

1) There are too many chokes, really ff favored and not too easy for zerg. The third is a nice place, but there should be rocks there instead of a wide open ramp. I suggest you expand the map or you can make it sort of like Antiga Shipyard and make it a 4 person map.

2) The map maybe a little too easy to drop in, but I don't really know about that.

3)You should add more Xel naga towers, and maybe some bushes for the middle, because most of the battles tend to happen on the main ramp of someones base.

Other than that, great map, my friends and I really enjoyed it

Thanks mate great to hear you liked it, I had couple fun games last night myself on it... FYI the previous version had high ground ramps and with nice gardens in mid, but there were concerns from other that this made it a terran tank haven. I agreed and changed it to a water feature no high ground advantage. I will pretty the mid up but I do that after it play well otherwise you spend to much time making things pretty and then changing later. With FF vs toss, it used to be really open in mid, then way to choked, its funny what some ppl consider to open others like and visa versa. There are so many couter attack paths around most of the chokes now that zerg can zoom around these, with out them its way to scary to expand out to the map, it would just make it a 3 base turtle fest otherwise. What you think?

[Slayar]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

I see two problems with the newest version:

Zerg would need to have units sitting on that narrow tip at the top of the main because if T got eight marines and a medivac there zerglings wouldn't be able to take it. The rines could keep running out and shooting the drones at the nat from above and danced back into the corner everytime lings showed. If they got banelings you pick the rines up and drop them down the ledge. I think Z could only prepare by having a queen at the nat and third shooting the medivac so you could kill the rines with a bane but its pretty likely T would do the kill-timing drop and use that ledge as a fallback (no third at this point).

Love the map mate, keep up the wicked work. There's always this sort of balancing that affects a map after 1.0.

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by Slayar

Zerg would need to have units sitting on that narrow tip at the top of the main because if T got eight marines and a medivac there zerglings wouldn't be able to take it. The rines could keep running out and shooting the drones at the nat from above and danced back into the corner everytime lings showed. If they got banelings you pick the rines up and drop them down the ledge. I think Z could only prepare by having a queen at the nat and third shooting the medivac so you could kill the rines with a bane but its pretty likely T would do the kill-timing drop and use that ledge as a fallback (no third at this point).

Love the map mate, keep up the wicked work. There's always this sort of balancing that affects a map after 1.0.

Cool thanks bud, yeah I did that peak design cos I like it in Shakuras Plateau. Its still a risk for terran because you are surrounded easily on my map. Its something you need to be aware of on any map... Not only knowing what you race can abuse but also other races, and prepare, scout and army position to prevent. Thanks for feedback... GGGLHF

[Next_rim]

As far as your other points, please consider expanding clockwise.

Doesn't matter, whoever controls the center has advantage over defender because of crooked pathing between bases, while center is a short straight line. No map should grant that kind of advantage.

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Doesn't matter, whoever controls the center has advantage over defender because of crooked pathing between bases, while center is a short straight line. No map should grant that kind of advantage.

So your saying that if you take mid you have more control... Inst that a part of a strategic manoeuvre in most cases, and therefore should have earned and deserve the upper hand for doing so?

Besides, my reasoning for having so many counter attack paths is to give the defender a "counter attack" option. But when I open up to many counter attack paths, other complain that its to much openness.

I have made enough changes to it to satisfy most need for each races. Just play the map then give feedback. Thanks all

[inFeZa]

Everytime i hear about making a map and things to do with map balance it always relates to "Bad for the Zerg"

Why does everything have to be changed for the good of the zerg?

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

Because protoss needs all the help it get right?

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by SQL.inFeZa

Everytime i hear about making a map and things to do with map balance it always relates to "Bad for the Zerg"

Why does everything have to be changed for the good of the zerg?

I hear ya there mate, initially it was Zerg saying my map is to imba vs terrans dropping. Well all races can drop. Just that Terran do it more often cos they pretty much rely on Medivacs for healing. Pros dont complain about it 'just saying'

[ToRDarKnoob]

get another ramp from main to 3ed and main move the ramp from natural to main next to the one to third get rid of ramp from natural to third and get double rocks from 3ed to forth (lots of tank rocks) get rid of the thing in middle and make the crevass between mid and 3edpossibly make the entire map a bit bigger

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by DarKnoob

get another ramp from main to 3ed and main move the ramp from natural to main next to the one to third get rid of ramp from natural to third and get double rocks from 3ed to forth (lots of tank rocks) get rid of the thing in middle and make the crevass between mid and 3edpossibly make the entire map a bit bigger

Dude your basically asking to change the whole map..
I used to have a ramp from main to 3rd. I have added rocks to 4th from nat. I think that what you were asking about.

You mostly make no sense. Can you use punctuation please to break up your sentences so I know when one idea starts and the next begins?

[ToRDarKnoob]

lol sorry about my poor english...

[Next_rim]

So your saying that if you take mid you have more control... Inst that a part of a strategic manoeuvre in most cases, and therefore should have earned and deserve the upper hand for doing so?

Not in sc2. For example, in PvZ current protoss units have very little capability to take and hold a position, unlike zerg highly mobile balls. Where terran can secure an area of the map with a siege line, protoss relies on spread out observers and slowly rolling tightly packed deathball, or fast, yet fragile blink stalker ball. Check out recent Heart vs DRG on Daybreak, where Heart would sit in mid map with a 200/200 stalker immortal ball, but still retreat at mere sight of DRG's roach pack to a more favorable choke closer to main, because there is no way even that direct counter can take on zerg's infinite production in such position.

Above being said, a map should grant a defender advantage in terms of walk distance between bases to prevent a high mobile and powerful army abusing the mere mechanics of the game (such is immortals being slow, and no other unit being capable of effectively deal with a roach ball). Attacker should never be able to move from main to 4th ramp faster than defender (save rare occasions).

[NioXin]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Above being said, a map should grant a defender advantage in terms of walk distance between bases to prevent a high mobile and powerful army abusing the mere mechanics of the game (such is immortals being slow, and no other unit being capable of effectively deal with a roach ball). Attacker should never be able to move from main to 4th ramp faster than defender (save rare occasions).

Interesting stuff about 4th base that i never considered, I am trying to design so there are more than 1 option for a 4th, like saying to yourself "do I expand clockwise or anti-clockwise" Its just a theory I have to making map more strategic and replayable, but apparently its tricky to balance. Really, this is my 1st ever map, so I think over all its above average. I have now started work on a 4v4 map and its fkn huge So when its close for a play test will have a new thread for it.

[TheGentleman]

When creating maps it's good to have a good understanding of how all three races work, it's hard to balance something when you don't know how to balance if you get what I'm saying.

Team liquid also has a vast selection of tips and tricks in their forum as well http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=44 (see the purple folders aka. sticky posts).

Also, a little trick I have. It looks like you've placed bases down where you want them to be then placed the minerals and gas around them wherever the SC2 editor will let you. What I've found neat is to open up a blizzard ladder map and copy the mineral/gas patches for use in your own map (Tal'Darim Alter has a large number of bases to choose from).

I also find it good to look at the different maps, especially those that are balanced, and to use them as a guide. You should also always pay attention to some "influencing factors" as I like to refer to them. 1. The Siege Tank, 2. Colossus, 3. Chokes (especially from a zergs perspective), 4. Air distance.

In saying the above, time for some more specific advice.

Your map is large, there is nothing wrong with this but the distance between your natural and 2nd base I feel is just a tad bit too large. This can be fixed by moving the mineral patches slightly closer to the centre of the base (not a drastic change) but it makes creep spread to the natural faster and therefore easier for the zerg player to defend against early air pressure with queens.

There are two potential forth bases for each base, I will be going from the perspective of the player spawning in the south-west position. The forths are located at the 9:00 position and the 6:00 position. In both cases you have to travel through a small choke to defend them if you are already at your natural or 3rd, either that or swing around a very large area around the front. There are so many chokes on this map around your bases that I consider moving around as either protoss or zerg to be nearly unreasonable.

Credit where it's due, you have done an amazing job on the textures especially since it's your first map so I want to congratulate you on that. I know my first map had a similar theme and was probably just as imbalanced but it was good fun and I hope you're enjoying it. Balance is difficult but you'll get the hang of it .

TLR? Sorry, I got carried away :P

Quick Comments

NioXin:

Thanx