[nirvAnA]

In light of the recent drama that has surfaced, I feel there is no better time to introduce a basic set of rules on SC2SEA. It would avoid problems in the future and it could have avoided ALOT of problems we had in the past with the way some members were treating the admins and mods on this site because there were no "official rules" in place and as such certain people felt we were obligated to serve them in certain ways.

I personally wanted to keep this whole issue private bearing in mind all the potential negativity that could arise, with sponsors staying away not wanting to touch our tournaments resulting in no more tournaments no more SEACLs etc and frankly this whole thing has been very embarrassing for SEA. deth did not agree with my decision that was discussed with Rossi in private and went ahead to air it for TL to decide. (Only for alot of them to tell us it should be discussed privately).

This post was made by Mezza on TL.

---

Mezza said:

I refer to the TL rules from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of this website and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from.

TL's 10 Commandments

In particular, I believe these in particular (and probably more) apply in some form or another to you, deth. (Read abovementioned link for full explanations of each)

1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE
2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE
3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING
6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN - in particular, the bit about "Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative."

All things being considered, "evidence", or rather, smatterings of conversations which could easily have been posted out of context isn't much to go by on a forum.

Honestly deth, this tournament will go on, with or without you, and this tournament is something awesome nirvana and his team put together, and you're not doing TL/sc2sea/the sc2 community any good by your actions. So man up and take the ban, keep playing SC2 and have fun, or at the very least, don't stop other people from having theirs, or rather, wasting everyone's time. So let's just get the tournament on, shall we?

p.s. Dissing nirvana about him making a living off the site is quite a low (and inaccurate) blow. I'd imagine nirvana makes a shitload more working at his previous day job than at this current "job" and honestly its not like he's making a killing off his site. So even if he does owe the community "shit", you alone don't exactly constitute "the community".

p.p.s. My apologies to the rest of the forum members who have to put up with this.

---

These 5 rules are now the first official 5 rules of SC2SEA

They are exact carbon copies of TL's rules whom we have always drawn inspiration from which will set the precedent for now and be adapted as time passes by.

1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE

+ [Read More] +

You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions. But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you.

2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE

+ [Read More] +

Common sense, people, common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (And if you happen to be into masochism, then you're at the wrong site, anyway.)

This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Generic trolling will get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.

3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING

+ [MUST READ] +

Remember, there's a reason why we do things around here. Our Moderators are not power hungry, unreasonable people with agendas against specific users. If they ban someone, there was probably a very good reason for it. If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact a Mod through PM or in our IRC channel, but please be respectful about it. Do not take things into your own hands by posting "Ban?" or telling users they will be banned. You PM Moderators to let them know about specific posts or threads, but let them handle it after that.

4. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS

+ [Read More] +

All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here.

5. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN - in particular, the bit about "Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative."

Lastly, this is not a thread for the deth vs nirvana argument to spill over and all efforts to turn that into it will be infracted.

It is about the new rules we have implemented, which have being used by TL to great success. Surely you can't find fault with TL for coming up with theirs and if you do, let them know. If you still have issues kindly take it up privately or post it on TL (if they haven't closed the thread yet).

SEAL will happen and it will be amazing, lets not forget that and look forward towards the league that all of us have been working our ass off to make happen. I would also recommend checking out deL's post below which has an amazing preview of the championship league.

Quick Comments

Volition:

i like

[faithHunter]

While I agree to most of TL's house rules, what I don't agree on is the 4th SC2SEA's "new" house rule, which is "THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS". Why? It promotes elitism and it makes the guys that have posted more posts on this website look more "elite" compared to other users.

Since this IS a carbon copy of the TL's house rules, then that means it currently has the same "definition" of the ones at TL. Unfortunately I can't find the TL house rules page on TL (If someone could link me to the page, I would really appreciate that), but the definition of the rule as far as I can remember is that when a "veteran" does something that you could get banned for, people will just let him off the hook just because he has been around for a while and he has contributed much to the site. But when a new member does it, he doesn't get the same treatment as the veteran does. I know that maybe the way it works on SC2SEA is different (and I sincerely hope so), and I know that things can change, but since the thread has just been posted and the house rules ARE an exact copy of TL's, that means we haven't took the time to "revise" it, to "adapt" it to the community so that it can fit in.

Quick Comments

NDG.Stitch:

He's got a good point...

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by neozxa

While I agree to most of TL's house rules, what I don't agree on is the 4th SC2SEA's "new" house rule, which is "THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS". Why? It promotes elitism and it makes the guys that have posted more posts on this website look more "elite" compared to other users

You could apply some common sense here. In context for SC2SEA, "Forum veterans" would be more like our MVPs for example (people with yellow names). They're given this status for a reason; because they have a history of providing good content, good posts and good behaviour. These people are an example of an SC2SEA user who should have auto-respect from new users.

But really, EVERYONE on this site should respect eachother. We're a small community, when there's conflict and disrespect it creates repercussions whether we like it or not. You are allowed to disagree, this is a forum, but don't disrespect the person you disagree with.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

exactly 100%

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

You could apply some common sense here. In context for SC2SEA, "Forum veterans" would be more like our MVPs for example (people with yellow names). They're given this status for a reason; because they have a history of providing good content, good posts and good behaviour. These people are an example of an SC2SEA user who should have auto-respect from new users.

But really, EVERYONE on this site should respect eachother. We're a small community, when there's conflict and disrespect it creates repercussions whether we like it or not. You are allowed to disagree, this is a forum, but don't disrespect the person you disagree with.

Yes, I agree that MVP's and other people (mods, admins, etc) should be respected by other users for what they have done for the website, but what I'm trying to say is that they should be treated the same as other members when it comes to breaking rules and/or receiving bans since, in the definition of that rule in TL, it says that the veterans could just get away from a ban just because they're veterans. Since this rule haven't been tweaked yet to match SC2SEA's community, I was just pointing out on what part of the new house rules that I disagree with.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by neozxa

Yes, I agree that MVP's and other people (mods, admins, etc) should be respected by other users for what they have done for the website, but what I'm trying to say is that they should be treated the same as other members when it comes to breaking rules and/or receiving bans since, in the definition of that rule in TL, it says that the veterans could just get away from a ban just because they're veterans. Since this rule haven't been tweaked yet to match SC2SEA's community, I was just pointing out on what part of the new house rules that I disagree with.

Hence the second part of my post

And in regards to veterans getting away with bans on TL, IdrA has been banned MANY times. Also, like nirvAnA said none of us vets or coloured names should be exempt from these rules. I would love to see them implemented ASAP so that everyone (regardless of previous indiscretions) can start anew OR simply continue respecting their fellow SC2sea member

Quick Comments

	Volition:	Starting anew would be great for all involved. let bygones be bygones
	NDG.Stitch:

[cure]

Although the rules are pretty common sense-ish. I'm glad that it's posted.

[souljah]

Agreed with neozxa, I feel that veterans should not have greater leeway for getting away with things simply because it can lead to abuse or to complaints of favouritsm cos most of the veteran will be on better terms with the admins.

[nirvAnA]

neozxa its over here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...topic_id=17883

Yea that is in the TL rules at number 6. You bring up a very valid point, I think the general idea is to show respect to everyone regardless of how long they have been on the forums. And to show even more respect for members of the community who have helped built the site into what it was today rather then "based on duration". That would be our definition of veterans and perhaps i need to reword that abit. In TL that would refer to HotBid, Nazgul, Chill, etc who have done amazing things for the TL community.

With that being said, our veterans will not get away if they commit certain offenses, but being veterans, the possibility for that seems really low.

As you said, I as well believe its best for our rules to be adapted to fit our community and as time progresses tweaked further.

[deL]

lol I don't think there are any forum veterans, they have probably been members for like 3 months longer than the rest of the people xD

[Peleus]

Treat all members with respect, there should never be anything that I could say to a forum "MVP" that I should be banned for that I should be able to say to a day old poster and not be banned.

Equality for everyone, but I agree with posting rules in the open to avoid issues.

[Krrn]

Maybe the 4th rule could be "Respect your fellow forum members". As I don't think a rule should differentiate between how you act towards MVPs/Mods and 'regular joe poster #465'.

[ToRXypha]

The rule is to say, that a veteran provided a lot in contributions and proven themselves. it allows for the fact that people do simply slip up occasionally but as they are a veteran they are given a little more leniency as its not their normal behaviour, it doesn't mean they will get away with it, the TL Rules also state, it is their house, the rules aren't always meant to be fair. it does not give a veteran free reign to do as they please and get away with it.

Quick Comments

	Mezza:	This man understands.
	Nemo:	^ this

[fur]

Damn shame that it has come to this.

This site actually reminds me so much of the way TL.net was back in 2002/2003 when it was very special.

Use your brains guys and - it's not that hard.

[TASlowHands]

While I understand and appreciate why these rules are being set, I just hope that this site remains in the same spirit it always has. Where we can troll each other and have a laugh, not looking over your shoulder for a banstick if you say something a bit close to the bone

I trust the staff here to maintain a high level of fairness though, and not adopt the worst from TL.

[VB_WhiplashJC]

If you're going to borrow from TL, then borrow their policy of not deleting posts. People don't learn if they can't see what happens when you don't follow the rules.

Quick Comments

	Dox:	Bravo!
	Cute:	100% Agreed
	BaKaiNu:	So this.
	Fadey:	agree!
	dippa:	and the left jab connects
	iM yang:	definately
	Maynarde:	Good idea
	ToRXypha:	for sure, gives good examples of what not to do
	nirvAnA:
	TADivinity:	On the freaking money
	TAScarecrow:	been saying this for ages
	AxSGRiM:
	AxS.Sorathez:	I am in agreement.
	TAEdarus:	I'm glad someone else feels this way too <3
	inFeZa:	I liek this because i usually miss out on the drama
	Nemo:	Agreed and well said with manner
	Melennas:
	x5.Revenant:

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

Equality for everyone, but I agree with posting rules in the open to avoid issues.

I want to stress that Equality is extremely important. Just because you are a "Top Player" or you come from a big clan does not mean you should get special treatment after breaking the rules, or the rules should apply different to you. Zannoku was banned from the site AND all our sc2sea tournaments for his forum etiquette and behaviour towards mods, and the tournament bans was something TA supported as well. Why do I bring Zan up? Believe it or not, deth is the 2nd highest banned user on sc2sea with at least 4 different accounts being banned (TAdeth, hted, nazivana, TAPelican) with some of these accounts receiving more than 1 ban and his actions after receiving the ban have been very similar to Zans, for instance immediately making another account to circumvent the ban. I don't want to go more into this as this thread should only be about rule discussion so look at cure's post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...&currentpage=4 if you want direct quotes and you can continue discussion there.

Originally Posted by VN_WhiplashJC

If you're going to borrow from TL, then borrow their policy of not deleting posts. People don't learn if they can't see what happens when you don't follow the rules.

I definitely agree with this and I have NOT being randomly deleteing posts i disagree with like what is being portrayed. Look at del's post about my wife, look at pinders post against baka, they are all still up there for all to see. The only times i delete stuff is when theres obvious derailment which will harm the thread for example halfway into the Tgun/glade thread 5-6 pple spamming "Wheres Roz?" one after the other and it took up one whole page and was obviously derailing the thread. deths baselss accusation in his rep comment if not deleted would have me had to make a lengthly response in the thread (Which i have since made on tL) which would have derailed the glade/tgun discussion and i wanted to avoid that. I also deleted stuff that in my opion were detrimental to the forum and overboard like mancannon sexually harassing kelly as well as the racial slurs by zan, as well as multiple memes attacking benji made in multiple threads whereever benji posted.

Also want to add some have been using the comments feature when "downreping" to circumvent this. aka making infraction worthy comments in the downrep". For e.g i have deleted down repped comments made against a certain member that went like "How can you manage your own team you can't even manage your own weight" which was a personal attack worthy of infraction that came out of nowhere that would make things worse between the two groups. those are the types of comments i have deleted, ones that clearly crossed the line as they cant be infracted. Which perhaps i should not have in hindsight so people learn whats acceptable and whats not, i just felt it was so wrong and no one should have ever had the misfortune of seeing that.

---

I also want to apologies for deleting Dox's and rossi's posts and have restored them.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3233

I deleted rossis post because it was very misinformed and if i had to refute all the points it was gonna have the thread blow up (like what you see on TL now) with very long walls of texts from both sides but since everything is now out in the open people can go read the TL thread and decide for themselves and there is no point leaving it deleted. You also have to remember there has been ALOT of drama over the last month, from the 1. SEAL format discussion, 2. the GLade tgun team, 3. the map hacking incident and 4. the SEACL player eligibilty. Those are HUGE threads and I have had to read every post in these threads to keep an eye on what was going on to make an educated administrative decision, and it was taking up massive amounts of time and I definitely did not what the "message from deth" thread to turn into another thread like that, we are already very stretched for time with SEACL just one week away and with alot of work still to be done.

As for Dox i still have and will always have an amazing amount of respect for him. I did not want people to see two very important people of sc2sea having a big public disagreement, and i did not want to tear apart the community by having people to take sides, especially when the league was so close to launching. I immediately messaged him in skype after his post so that we could talk about it privately where I explained my rationale behind my actions and likewise he explained his.

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	Don't need to know your reasoning, just stop doing it mate.
	TAEdarus:	Thank you for restoring those posts, this is going a long way to helping =)

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

The only times i delete stuff is when theres obvious derailment which will harm the thread for example halfway into the Tgun/glade thread 5-6 pple spamming "Wheres Roz?" one after the other and it took up one whole page and was obviously derailing the thread.

Personally, I'd say never delete stuff for any reason. If you're worried about thread derailment there are plenty of effective ways of dealing with it, without removing the post. If you simply warned / put an infraction on the post with a justification people can see if they continue along those lines it's unacceptable, thread gets back on track and everyone is happy.

This is also more effective in other ways because when the next person who wants to spam "Where's Roz?" comes into the thread they can see that it's unacceptable rather than being the first person (from their point of view) doing it and getting harshly dealt with when they never knew there was a previous problem.

"Rule #6 - Openness, transparency and equality are the cornerstones of sc2sea.com"

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

Also want to add some have been using the comments in "downrep" to circumvent the infactions.

[Eddie]

Common sense rules, applies both to on-line and real life. Probably didn't need to be stated, hopefully it's not referenced too much. We're all here to have fun, improve, play Starcraft etc. Makes sense to be pretty level headed. Sometimes people disagree, act out, but we move on/compromise, and hopefully the site/community/tournaments/events will grow as a result.

more gg more skill

[nGenLight]

Wait so not posting positive tones - infractable? gg Benji!

Quick Comments

Dox:

ahaha

[Mezza]

As much as you guys want transparency, and having the ability to see what transpired so you can 'learn' from it, I strongly believe that an ounce common sense would be able to guide you through without having to observe one retard's actions leading up into a ban to learn from it.

Also, I've got to agree with nirvana to quite a large extent of sometimes, deleting a post may make for an easier moderating job than to leave it and then having to refute the arguments that will ensue, but that's his strategy, and honestly its not wrong. Because most threads that descend into a stupid flamewar after leaving inflammatory posts up would end up how? Having the thread shut down anyway. Only to have another thread spawn with the exact same discussion topic.

The way I see it, he's keeping the thread on track, his style, and who's to say its a totally wrong way of doing things? To move the OP to a totally new thread, recreating the thread and moving the relavant posts into a NEW thread and renaming the old thread to be a discussion thread for that ONE issue of contention, is a huge pain in the ass, and a mod's energy could be better spent doing other more constructive, rather than destructive stuff. Just because you disagree with his style of doing stuff, doesn't mean its wrong. Doesn't make it entirely right either, but in the grand scheme of things, its just stylistic.

About the point on forum veterans, read the first line of the bit where the point is explained on in the TL commandments "All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here."

This doesn't mean veterans get to whatever the crap they want to do. But ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, (ie. in a 50/50 situation, or the no he started the shit vs no you started the shit first arguments) we're gonna veer on the "veteran's" side, for obvious bloody reasons. Thank you ToRXypha, you obviously understood it whereas some others didn't.

Also, honestly how many people from this site have actually positively and significantly contributed to the site? Most of us are just passengers. So maybe the least we could do would be to less of a nuisance and be nicer in general. Also, actually think before posting.

p.s. I'd suggest for all the TL rules to be made official rules honestly. I mentioned those only in particular to a previous situation from the TL thread but yeah, perhaps "RESPECT YOUR ID" and "THOU SHALT CONTRIBUTE TO THE SITE (positively)" would have applied as well but I didn't mention it then for fear of some people misconstruing it and dragging it way off line, once again.

p.p.s. Light, constructive criticism is great, but personal attacks against Benji isn't. I not exactly Benji's greatest fan, but seriously when it comes down to personal attacks, I'm all for just deleting that line and infracting/banning the person right up with no given reason by the mods, to leave the personal attack up for all to see is a sore spot.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

I hope everyone reads this

[Maynarde]

Mezza, I believe that the majority of users here would prefer to see posts not deleted at all (as indicated by the amount of rep on Whiplash's post), and that's what the rep sytstem is for right?

When there's a post with a giant red "INFRACTION" spread across it, I think it sends a pretty clear message. Then there's no obscurity and even the user with least amount of common sense can see the proverbial red flashing light say "NO user, BAD user." For instance, the first post on this thread... NO zoom, BAD zoom.

Assuming people have common sense has bit me on the ass before lol. That said the vast majority of users here do have common sense in my eyes.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Exactly

[Mezza]

Yes, people would prefer not to see posts deleted, but just hypothetically, supposing a post was a blatant personal attack like

"you're such a screwup in life because you have no job and you come from a broken home and you live in a dump so what gives you the right to comment on the sc2 scene"

I honestly think deleting it does more good than to leave it with a big red infraction across the bottom. Especially so when perhaps, there's some form of truth in it and there's personal info divulged. But you're right in the sense that this would form a very small subset of posts/comments.

So I'd still say, leave it up to the mod(s) to decide. End of the day, as long you don't cause more harm/damage to the larger population, it'll be fine.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

For generally being awesome, mezza <3

[Bash]

instead of deleting their post, could they Edit it so the "Post" remains, but instead of what was written they just write "Deleted" , and then give a reasoning.
Idk, posts disappearing is confusing to anyone who reads after that point, and this gives mods etc a way to clearly define WHY it was done, and if neeeded what was wrong with the post.

For example, using mezza's post.
"you're such a screwup in life because you have no job and you come from a broken home and you live in a dump so what gives you the right to comment on the sc2 scene"
Could then become
"DELETED - Personal attacks have no place on our forums, play nicely or be banned" ,or something.

Just a thought, y'know, i think they do it ocassionally already though.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Yes, exactly
	TAEdgE:	very good

[Maynarde]

I agree with you Mezza in the sense that EXTREMELY offensive posts perhaps should be deleted. And that is something that I've only seen two or three times in the several months I've been here... Which is a huge part of the reason I like this forum a whole lot more than TL :P

There can be personal attacks that I believe shouldn't be deleted, warnings / infractions would be better served. A lot of people ask things like "why is so-and-so banned?" They can see for themselves, black and white, clear as crystal. Extremely offensive personal attacks with extremely offensive language are grounds for deletion, there are kids that use this site after all.

Also, don't delete derailment posts in my opinion. Let them happen and slap a warning on it. If people want to discuss something publicly that has nothing to do with the thread; take it to chatbox or make your OWN thread.

Quick Comments

	TAkrunch:	smart man!
	Asrathiel:	Agreed

[Delraich]

There seems to be an overwhelming support for not deleting any posts, regardless of how inappropriate they are, however, I personally don't think keeping really bad posts in permanent view forever is a good idea (e.g. harassment, racism, attacks against someones family members). Maybe if deleting is still an issue, they can be archived?

Regarding the whole transparency thing, reasons could be posted why the post was removed. I am not sure if when people say "transparency" they actually mean they want to see the content and help make the decision? If this is the case, I don't think that is a good idea because this is the admins job and they have a better idea of previous decisions and precedents etc.

On a related note, what is the point/ advantage of leaving some inflammatory post on the forums forever anyway? I think there is more advantage of getting rid of it because less people will be negatively affected this way. It also means that people are more likely to contribute because they are not worried about getting nailed through some personal attack.

However, any "disciplinary" process is sensitive and therefore a process needs to be followed consistently and fairly with sufficient feedback to the person involved. Maybe if Nirvana is being seen as biased, then a few representatives need to be on the decision group who everyone can trust. How they are chosen I don't know, but they would all need to follow the same rules and apply them consistently. Their say would be final. This decision can be posted with a few reasons and the the post is removed. This suggestion is only for bad posts btw, not random small issues otherwise it will get bigger then Ben Hur.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[nirvAnA]

To let you guys know just for moderation of the "SEAL registration thread" which got derailed by the "SEA eligibility discussion", i had to move all the relevant posts into a separate thread. this means i had to re-read through the content of every post, to make sure it was about the right topic, and manually click the tick box for each post (over 100 posts) over 15 pages. It was alot of thankless, extra work and we already do this voluntary out of all own time and this adds to the workload. i've been wanting to finish my wcg and australia blog series forever now but never could because whenever i had free time some other issue with a more pressing priority on the site popped up that i had to attend do. that was also why i was against letting threads derail at any moment for the sake of 100% transparency, which in the first place it didnt happen much.

To put things into perspective I'd like to add that it is always the same select group of individuals who get their posts deleted time and again, who think they should be treated differently from everyone else, and when disputes arise blame the administration for not properly setting rules or having no transparency. When its because of rep comments they blame the rep system for being flawed and ask for it to be removed instead of accepting responsibility that they have been misusing it. The vast majority of SC2SEA users use it very maturely and responsibly.

there are 7,000 users on this site. I have deleted posts and reputation comments maybe coming from a total of 10 different users, just that 10 users keep doing this over and over again because they feel the rules dont apply to them. How many of you have ever had your comments or reps deleted? Its just those same individuals repeatedly.

this also means that all dirty laundry will be aired publicly which i am against as well as something needs just need to be settled privately, especially personal differences. TL certainly did not have to witness what happened and every time someone makes a thread that would lead in direction it stays undeleted and transparent and every disagreement is aired for all to see which i think is a step in the wrong direction.

That was my previous rationale and thoughts behind my actions. Of course I'm not going to hold on to my way of thinking if theres demand for people seem to want to see everything 100% transparent and I will adopt to complete transparency if that is what the community wants. Look at the site feedback thread, all the toruney format threads, even for smiles, chatbox sizes, thread icons, i have always listened to feedback. that has always been my approach, to find out what people want and then implement it regardless of my own personal preferences.

I just want people to be aware that because of a few people using it as an excuse to get away with their behavior - for instance removing the rep system which they have deemed time and again "because its flawed". The rep system is one of the features i absolutely love on the site and i would hate to see it removed because of the vocal pressure from this group who insist on it being flawed and rather see it removed for EVERYONE then admit to themselves they have been abusing it and correct their behavior.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

To let you guys know just for moderation of the "SEAL registration thread" which got derailed by the "SEA eligibility discussion", i had to move all the relevant posts into a separate thread. this means i had to re-read through the content of every post, to make sure it was about the right topic, and manually click the tick box for each post (over 100 posts) over 15 pages. It was alot of thankless, extra work and we already do this voluntary out of all own time and this adds to the workload. that was also why i was against letting threads derail at any moment for the sake of 100% transparency, which in the first place it didnt happen much.

I agree it's extra work for the moderation team, and within reason this must be controlled. However let's play devils advocate and say instead we simply deleted comments that were off topic? I'd say arguably the discussion about SEA eligibility wouldn't have happened where I think a fair few minds were changed on a perspective, arguably I wouldn't have posted the SEA esports growth thread which was along a similar theme, and we also wouldn't have had a lot of great idea's that were produced as a community. If, however the amount of work becomes unmanageable I think it's personally reasonably to put a mod note (doesn't even need to be an infraction) on the first post you think is derailing / the few afterwards and say please keep this thread on topic, create a new topic to discuss this issue.

this also means that all dirty laundry will be aired publicly which i am against as well as something needs just need to be settled privately, especially personal differences. TL certainly did not have to witness what happened and every time someone makes a thread that would lead in direction it stays undeleted and transparent and every disagreement is aired for all to see which i think is a step in the wrong direction.

I actually to a certain extent disagree here. I'm not trying to go along these lines saying there is any problem with the moderation team, but there has to be an acknowledgement that both parties need to want to discuss it in private, and if someone wants to air things publicly it will happen. There will always be difficulties in discussing things, especially when one party in a disagreement has moderation powers and the other does not. If posts are deleted then one party feels like they cannot get their view out and will pursue any other public means of discussion they can. That environment was created, and thats why deth posted on TL, but I'm not commenting on whether that is right or wrong.

If these disagreements are aired in the open (with a level of civility that is reasonable for mods to maintain) then at least the community can put pressure on anyone who is being unreasonable and stuff is kept in house.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I agree it's extra work for the moderation team, and within reason this must be controlled. However let's play devils advocate and say instead we simply deleted comments that were off topic? I'd say arguably the discussion about SEA eligibility wouldn't have happened where I think a fair few minds were changed on a perspective, arguably I wouldn't have posted the SEA esports growth thread which was along a similar theme, and we also wouldn't have had a lot of great idea's that were produced as a community. If, however the amount of work becomes unmanageable I think it's personally reasonably to put a mod note (doesn't even need to be an infraction) on the first post you think is derailing / the few afterwards and say please keep this thread on topic, create a new topic to discuss this issue.

To clarify what i meant by off topic was the "wheres roz" trolling which spanned over 10 posts. The SEA eligibility was considered a VERY valid discussion, and i rightly moved it its own thread! That was that i have been practicing all this while. It is very rare in the first place for posts to be deleted and when they are it is always for very valid reasons.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

but there has to be an acknowledgement that both parties need to want to discuss it in private, and if someone wants to air things publicly it will happen.

We did discuss it in private after i locked the thread. That was my exact intention, to lock the thread, notify the parties involved which was Rossi in this case that we should discuss it in private and that is what happened. If I left his reply that it would defeat the purpose of discussing it on private and i would get "the last word". When its deleted no1 gets the last word and its discussed privately. The thing is "discussing in private" doesn't mean I am obliged to agree to their terms, its more of so theres a better understanding from both sides and in the best case scenarios a compromise is reached on both ends. I did not agree to deth's terms "let me play or I am going to post this all over TL, reddit" or accept deth's apology (if he was truly sorry he would never have done what he did) and hence he made that post in TL in spite knowing very well the effect it could have on the SEA community.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Lastly, this is not a thread for the deth vs nirvana argument to spill over and all efforts to turn that into it will be removed.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

That environment was created, and thats why deth posted on TL, but I'm not commenting on whether that is right or wrong.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I did not agree to deth's terms "let me play or I am going to post this all over TL, reddit" or accept deth's apology (if he was truly sorry he would never have done what he did) and hence he made that post in TL in spite knowing very well the effect it could have on the SEA community.

Guys, we did say at the beginning of the thread not to bring this up. I know it's hard given recent events but let's try to stay on track with rules as a general discussion without getting into this.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

100% agreed. I apologise for bringing that up. Lets stay on track.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

Guys, we did say at the beginning of the thread not to bring this up. I know it's hard given recent events but let's try to stay on track with rules as a general discussion without getting into this.

Fair call, was meaning to discuss the possible consequences rather than the right or wrong of the incident itself but I know what you mean, will drop anything relating to that in the future

[nirvAnA]

Here are some rules other websites have. Thank you for bring this to my attention Delraich, we will definitely be implementing some and have left the more relevant ones below.

Originally Posted by Delraich

I found these rules off a random google search website - not sure if they are useful but thought I would let you have a look anyway.

http://forums.deletionquality.net/sh...ad.php/8-Rules

Major Rules:
No racism or racist remarks.
No Porn is allowed. Links nor images etc.
No Gross, Extremely Violent & Gory images/content allowed. (Snuff Photos).
No insulting statements towards fellow members. (This is flaming).
No talking or discussing serials, warez, cracks, etc. or where to obtain software illegally.
Do not discuss anything that may be illegal, if its in a gray area best to ask a mod/admin first or don't post at all.
Do use common sense when posting, and be courteous to your fellow members.
Keep swearing to a minimum, and do not put swear words in a thread title, username or signature.
Do not claim other's work as your own. When we find out (and we do), you may be banned!!!

Do not have multiple accounts, if we find them (and we do check!) you may receive a permanent ban.
Do not circumvent a temporary ban by attempting to create a second account or using another person's account. When we find out, you WILL receive a permanent ban.
If you already have multiple accounts, please let us know and we can merge the accounts. You will not be infracted.

Remember that people of many ages and many cultural backgrounds visit this website. If you are not tolerant of other people's backgrounds please do not whine about it here. While we do have discussions on those issues, attacking or insulting someone because of their race, sex, religion, beliefs or otherwise will result in infractions, repeated actions will earn you a ban.

Minor Rules
Try your best with proper English grammar and spelling when posting!
Don't double post, triple post, etc. Edit the previous post instead.
Don't post in dead threads unless you have something constructive to add.
Don't ask Admins or Mods about becoming a moderator, or editing your user-title, the answer is no.
Don't troll or derail threads into offtopic discussions, do not bait people into irrelevant personal arguments.

Just because you can spam in here doesn't mean you SHOULD.
All Spam should be kept to the allocated Spam thread.

Regards,
-The DQ Team

I also updated the OP to add the TL rule descriptions which I should have added in the first place, they are extremely detailed and reasonable.

[crAzerk]

With regards to deleting posts, my personal stand is that while deleting negative posts (negative as what has been specified by nirvana earlier in this thread) is good and perhaps even necessary to maintain the nice environment we have here at sc2sea, 'ninja-deleting' is not.

Bash brought up a valid suggestion in this thread which appears to have been overlooked (And I realized everything he said was exactly what was on my mind)

instead of deleting their post, could they Edit it so the "Post" remains, but instead of what was written they just write "Deleted" , and then give a reasoning.
Idk, posts disappearing is confusing to anyone who reads after that point, and this gives mods etc a way to clearly define WHY it was done, and if neeeded what was wrong with the post.

In the future, perhaps leave a 'deleted' message , as well as with the rationale it was deleted

This is kind of a compromise between both parties of 'wanting to keep things transparent, perma-posts!' and nirv's stand of 'deleting for the better good (of keeping threads on track, no personal attacks, etc)'


EDIT: Added an intro and quoted Bash who brought it up. Rep him instead! I basically echoed what he said.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	good idea
	nirvAnA:
	TAEdarus:	I like it a lot!
	Bash:	♥

[VB_WhiplashJC]

That's how Whirlpool does it, I think it works alright.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

there are 7,000 users on this site. I have deleted posts and reputation comments maybe coming from a total of 10 different users, just that 10 users keep doing this over and over again because they feel the rules dont apply to them. How many of you have ever had your comments or reps deleted? Its just those same individuals repeatedly.

Ban them (at least a temp ban) before it gets to that point. It could be as short as 24hrs.

I think you need to stop trying to please everyone and take TL rule #1 more seriously. If someone is banned they don't deserve to be engaged with except out of the goodness of your heart.

The issue of forum bans and tournament bans should be explicit beforehand (whatever you decide), so you don't have an issue.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[nGenLight]

I still don't believe in deleting any posts. Instead of "Deleted" I rather have "This post was censored due to its obscene content" and put a spoiler tag on it. However I can see the situation where you want to delete it if some retard was spamming 200 posts of porn links or something

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

I still don't believe in deleting any posts. Instead of "Deleted" I rather have "This post was censored due to its obscene content" and put a spoiler tag on it. However I can see the situation where you want to delete it if some retard was spamming 200 posts of porn links or something

That what should be done in my opinion too. And limit it to the absolute strict minimum. Don't fear to warn and infract, but fear to delete as people can't understand what bad things have been done.

Plus, you should delegate more to your mod team. Especially let them mod any problem where you're involved, even as victim (the general case). I found they are too shy, except Baka, when "high figures" of the community are involved. Just skype them to mod that or that thread from that point and let them do the job.

You're too much under everyone fire when you're doing all the mod job.

[nirvAnA]

The following rules are now required to be read before making a thread or replying to a post. You will automatically get the message if you have not seen them yet and they will only appear once. The registration rules have been replaced with this as well.

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Would first like to credit TL's 10 Commandments by mensrea from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of TL and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from. Our house rules are based heavily on theirs.

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The Official House Rules of SC2SEA


1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE

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You are guests in our house. These are OUR rules not yours. We have spent countless hours building our house into what it is, and the very same rules we followed to make the SC2SEA you see today will now be made clear so as to not give any offenders anymore excuses to misbehave. We try our best to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But this is a private site not funded by any government and free from any outside influence. This means we run the site accordingly to the way we see fit. We are not obligated to follow anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." Neither do we "owe" any obligation to anyone to perform certain duties or allow participation in any of "our" tournaments. We are not your servants, you are our guests - and we perform these duties because we want to, not because we have to. We allow participation in our tournaments because we can and not because we must. We of course often go the extra mile in making our users happy and have created a fantastic site that people love - that's why we are the most popular Starcraft 2 gaming site for the Asia Pacific region. The vast majority of users are mature and sensible people able to appreciate and recognize this and hell most of you don't even need to be reading these rules so if you're one of these people just skip it now.

But for the few of those who aren't get this clear - we have our limits. If you disrespect admins, mods, or fellow users or worse of all treat us like we are your servants under obligation to serve you after doing all of that - don't you even dare to call yourself part of our community. If we don't like you, we will simply ban you. And for the record, we are extremely lenient - there are less than 7 permanently banned users out of 7,000 registered users, you must be some kind of wonderful to end up in that 7.

2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE

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This is common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no as and it goes without saying that making ridiculous accusations with no basis will get you banned as well. Even simple generic trolling might get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.

3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING

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Remember, there's a reason why we do things around here. Our Moderators are not power hungry, unreasonable people with agendas against specific users. If they ban someone, there was probably a very legitimate reason behind it. Cool down and think about it first before you go crazy with bias accusations and personal vendettas - it was highly likely to be your behavior alone that warranted that action. Read this rule page again because its likely you violated one the rules. If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact the Mod who banned you through PM but please be respectful about it. Do not take start public threads "demanding fair treatment" or worse of all, attacking the mods in public for their decision. Being smart about it and resolving your issue in private will probably lead to leniency as our moderators after all are kind and reasonable people.

4. THOU SHALL RESPECT ESTABLISHED MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY

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All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have contributed more to the site and the people who have been around longer. This includes Admins, Mods, MVPs, Casters, Tournament organizers, etc. It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and consistent contribution are prized commodities around here. This does not mean they are exempt from any bans should they break any rules. It just means you should respect them slightly more then the average forum user and keep that in mind before your begin your angry post should you not be happy with something he/she has said.

5. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN

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This is meant to be a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. When you see a good post, encourage it, when you see a bad one, don't flame but let the poster know how it can be improved. We don't expect you to have a smile plastered on your face ala Ronad McDonald and neither do we expect everyone to be like superheroes like our staff Nemo or Mezza. But users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. Nit-picking minor flaws in otherwise very well written posts instead of showing appreciation or constantly passing your "oh so important" judgment from people not meeting your unreasonably high standards - no one wants to know this, and no one cares no matter how "true" you think it might be. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time who just focus on the negative. Chill, have fun here and be part of creating this fun positive vibe that we have.

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Official forum posting rules of SC2SEA

The next rules follow closely to the standard rules on most other standard websites.

Although the administrators and moderators of SC2SEA.com will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of SC2SEA.com nor the developers of vBulletin will be held responsible for the content of any message. The owners of SC2SEA.com reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

By agreeing to these rules you agree that:

Major Rules

• You will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.No racism or racist remarks.
  
• No Porn is allowed. Links nor images etc. No Gross, Extremely Violent & Gory images/content allowed. (Snuff Photos).
  
• No insulting statements towards fellow members. (This is flaming). Keep swearing to a minimum, and do not put swear words in a thread title, username or signature. Don't troll or derail threads into offtopic discussions, do not bait people into irrelevant personal arguments. Do not use the rep system to make personal attacks on other members and claim it was just "harmless down reping".
  
• No talking or discussing serials, warez, cracks, etc. or where to obtain software illegally. Do not discuss anything that may be illegal, if its in a gray area best to ask a mod/admin first or don't post at all.
  
• Do not claim other's work as your own. When we find out (and we do), you may be banned.
  
• Do not have multiple accounts, if we find them (and we do check!) you may receive a permanent ban. Do not circumvent a temporary ban by attempting to create a second account or using another person's account. When we find out, you WILL receive a permanent ban.
  
• Not all our mods or applications are perfect (rep system). Just because they can be abused doesn't mean you should abuse it. Offenders will have their rep powers removed or banned without warning.

Minor Rules

• Try your best with proper English grammar and spelling when posting!
• Don't double post, triple post, etc. Edit the previous post instead.
• Don't post in dead threads unless you have something constructive to add.
• Don't ask Admins or Mods about becoming a moderator, or editing your user-title, the answer is no.

Lastly, if you do not like our site or our rules, simply do not use it - nobody is forcing you to. Our community will remain a much better place. To the other 99% normal people in this world, we welcome you with warm open arms.

Enjoy your time in SC2SEA!