[Satu]

Good Evening South-East Asia. Tonight, I do not wish to speak as a citizen of Australia, but instead as a player of SEA. As of recently, our community has had a new addition. However, many are speculating over the result of the entire community because of the addition of this new member. He has had victory after victory in our events, and many are of the opinion that this terror cannot be stopped. He is known only as...

ST

Ok, I lied, hes also known as yChSPR and gts

And also


fou
He isn't actually in fou anymore, so I hear. His SEA account is Master

And that really is what this thread is all about. Now that the hyping is done, heres all you need to know! (It was afterwards that I noticed how these were both movies, when I just googled their usernames... A sign, perhaps?)

The Facts:
- ST_KingKong has won the Masters cup twice, beating Moonglade in one, (http://challonge.com/mc5) and beating another korean progamer known on the SEA server as Master (Soulmanfou (http://challonge.com/mc6))

- He has won the community open twice in a row, #30 (http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=404) and #31 (http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=413).

- ST_KingKong is above the skill of all SEA players, which he proved from the start after beating moonglade, but has only further solidified that point ever since.

- Soulman isn't far behind ST_KingKong, taking second place in Masters Cup #6 and Community Open #31. If ST_KingKong wasn't winning the tournaments, it safe to say Soulman probably would be winning them instead.

- ST_KingKong played vs ogsMC. Check it out!

Why they should be allowed to compete
- Forces SEA players to play better in order to win tournaments, raising the competitive level
- The rules don't currently state they cannot compete
- Both joined a SEA clan known as team SPR and have some participation with the community

Why they shouldn't be allowed to compete
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.
- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.
- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do.

Community Opinions
Contribute to the discussion or make a good point and it'll turn up here, for all new readers to consider!
And then it turned out that the entire thread was made of win...

Read this before contributing
Please do not flame them in this thread, I want to have a civilized discussion about this issue. You might have also noticed the poll up the top, that Nirvana suggested I'd add. We may or may not change the rules of the community open based on the results of the poll and your opinions. At this point in time, that is the primary focus of this discussion, so although you can reference the masters cup, try to keep it as relevant as possible to this specific issue. We want to keep you guys happy, and if you want to continue to see korean progamers competing with our SEA players on an almost weekly basis, or don't want to, then tell us. Its hard to tell if there is a problem here or not, to be honest.

[TargA]

its not impossible to beat gts, actually its pretty possible dont know about the other guy tho.

[aLtShortizz]

I beat master on ladder

But yeh i remember when SixjaxMajor tried to play in one of our SEA tourney, he was refused. So i dont really know if the koreans shld be allowed in the CO as it is a SEA only tournament too? Besides, its incredibly hard to stop them from just using a SEA player's account so thats a pretty ''grey'' area.

[TAlkori]

If top players from sea want to start being competitive internationally, let them play.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Why they shouldn't be allowed to compete
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.
- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.
- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do.

That first point is essentially an extension of xenophobia.

The second point is especially rubbish. Should people who don't participate in the community be barred from playing in the open? Koreans contribute more to the community by playing than ANZ/SEA people who rock up the tourney but don't post on forums, because the replays they leave behind give us a benchmark that we can all learn from.

The dedication and free time argument is a bit of a cop-out as well, because it simply collapses when Australia has plenty of people who earn money from streaming, coaching and have sponsorships. Those players should still be aiming to test their skills against the Koreans.

Plus, many SEA players ladder on Korea anyway.

What are we scared of? Losing? In a free tournament with minuscule prizes?

Harden the **** up.

Quick Comments

	Fourby:	<3
	Eldrid:	+1
	dazaris:	+2
	NDG.Stitch:	definitely agree with the second and third point! nobody improves without a challenge!

[SC2MKP]

i guess its a good thing that they are joining tournaments in our servers, since it will raise up the level of our players.
in addition, having higher level players joining SEA tournies shows that SEA server is not forgotten and seeing that more and more Koreans are playing here, SEA surely will become a powerhouse soon enough.

Cons:
like zergtastic said,
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.( while this may be true, it is possible for SEA players to reach that standard. for example, china is a powerhouse for many sports, and u r a total noob at... lets take badminton. yes it is obvious at the beginning there is a huge skill gap. but, after training with them i believe that you can be able to reach their standard of play )

- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.( that is one thing to worry about, but, to be honest, SEA isnt really that strong as a whole and if you are joining tournies here just for the prize, then i suggest that you can join local Lan tournaments instead.)

- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do ( while that is true, SEA has many talented players, and many of them cant dedicate alot of time to practice. so if you cant dedicate time to practice, why do you expect to win the tournies in the 1st place? life is like this, dedication will play a factor in everything )

now for the PROs
- Forces SEA players to play better in order to win tournaments, raising the competitive level(this is the main reason why tournaments are held. to gauge your level and raise it up a notch. it would be stupid if you were to play with yourself all day long and there's no challenge.
lets give an example again, you are in school, in a maths class, and your teacher comes in and says "alright class, i shall give you a question to do. you have 1 hr. what is 1+1? " if i was a student there, i will be like WTF? is the teacher mad? thats what life is, challenges. why do you play starcraft? its challenging, makes you use your brain. why not play games like match the colors? because, its easy for us now.)

- The rules don't currently state they cannot compete( <- this. cannot be argued)

- Both joined a SEA clan known as team SPR and have some participation with the community(actually, this really doesnt matter, as when you join tournaments or competitions, the main point is to have fun and learn. not if you have contributed a crap ton of things or if you are in a clan~)

so at the end of the day, koreans comming here to play in SEA tournaments are a good thing in my honest opinion. like the case of sixjax major, he was denied of playing cause the rules have stated that only people living in SEA region are able to play. do u see any koreans playing in it? NO. so if you guys dont want koreans to play in SEA tournaments then just state it in the rules and i am sure they will understand.

sorry for the long post, just writing down my thoughts

[Daboo]

I think it's okay for them to participate. The sixjax major problem was something similar, but major who is probably at a higher level than these guys was signing up mainly (only?) for the tournament, just to get the cash. OP states that these guys actually own sea accounts and are part of a SEA clan (that clans is mainly koreans expats right?), and hence are actually a proper part of the community, they ladder regularly (ychspr is gm?)

Also how do we define community participation? Most pros in the west dont really participate in the community(posting in forums,replays, podcasts etc) but participate in the tourneys.

Besides raising the bar a bit might be good, it gives you something to aim for, these guys might be very good, but we know they are very low level korean pros(no disrespect), and some people have mentioned that they have beaten them on the ladder, hence this gives our to pros something achievable but challenging, and thereby them prepares them for higher levels of play.

[Satu]

On the topic of their participation with the community being irrelevant, I was just trying to politely look at if they are just coming to SEA to take our money and go, or if they are interested at all in our community. There is a pretty big difference between the two, and tbh I don't know which side of the line they sit. It affects how they are seen by members of the community, and its fair to make a statement that its unfair because they just come over to SEA to take our money and go.

Kinda hard to say it politely though, so not surprised that it got criticised a bit.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

well said. yea del asked me earlier too about not letting krs play. best to let the community decide hence this poll. so vote!

[Estancia]

Don't forget that there are noob koreans like me

[Cyanide]

I think you have to give them the benefit of the doubt no matter what. The prizes are small, and as full time pro-gamers, I think they are just trying to get whatever they can get their hands on?

Most players on SEA have a real job. If SEA wants to step up and keep the money, players just have to train harder (whether or not to the same level as the Koreans, is another matter all together). That said, it would definitely raise the standards here imo.

If you think about it, it's really no different from NASL or MLG having more Koreans. The goal, is to ultimately raise the bar in the respective leagues. I guess the problem with SEA is that our standards are not as high (more likely because we don't have many full-time pro-gamers).

Just my humble 2 cents.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[Meatex]

I think more than letting them play we should encourage more to play on SEA
Give them reasons to participate in the community beyond tournaments

Perhaps have a minimum games played to be eligible for tournaments if you reside outside of a SEA country?

Also I casted Mafia taking a good game off of KingKong I believe so its not impossible (and Rossi?)

[Maynarde]

As a happy donater to the CO prize pool, I would LOVE to see my cash go to a SEA resident as I got nothin but love for our awesome community.

I however voted to let Korean pros play in the open. Why is that? Personally, when fronted with a challenge I'm not the type of person to complain about the size of the obstacle but would rather train to overcome it. I like to think the presence of Korean pro gamers in our community tournaments will not cause people to stop participating (it's free to participate in after all) but rather give the SEA residents a push to aim for an even higher elite level to go toe to toe with the best in the world. The satisfaction of taking a tournament from a fOu or ST player would be truly amazing

With that logic, I'll continue to donate time AND money to the community with the hope that the CO and SEA's greatest nerd killers will only get better and better

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	Fourby:	exactly, im with you here

[Eddie]

In regards to the Masters Cup i have the following rule:

International/non SEA players are welcome, but they must have shown they are active on the SEA ladder, eg. ST.KingKong (yChSPR/gts), SoulmanfOu (Master), Slayers_Dragon.

Getting 'better' players coming to consistently play or train on SEA is a good thing imo. Can only help make everyone better players as a result.

It's different than someone borrowing an account, or 'smurfing' just for the prizes.

Also i'm introducing a new rule for the Masters Cups, that if you are lucky enough to win 2 in a row, you must sit the 3rd one out to spread the wealth around a bit.

ST KingKong is a really good player, but certainly beatable. His Masters Cup games against Glade + YoonYJ were great to watch, and pretty close contests.

No offence to SoulmanFou/Master and his last opponents, but he didn't exactly have the hardest path of SEA's best to play in the last Masters Cup, and we were missing quite a few Sydney players and MoonGlade.

The new win 2 in a row rule would also apply to top players such as MoonGlade, YoonYJ, TADeth, NeoRedArchon, etc, all of whom (and other top SEA players) are quite capable of beating the Koreans mentioned above, and themselves gaining improvement from playing them more.

Perhaps such a rule could be the way to go with Community Opens too...

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAEdgE:

[ToRPandarine]

This is a lowly Silver player talking, so mind you, I might seem a bit dumb in what I'm about to say.

I agree having the foreign players in the competition as I am sure it will improve our gameplay. Hell, we might even pick up a trick or two. Any form of higher level play is good. It makes us wish to be equally good or better.

However, players from BSG who enter to the CO or any other open SEA tournament may actually find this demoralising when they find out their current or next possible opponent are these powerhouses. Yes, you can argue we can still beat them if we try hard enough. Then again, if we do beat them, what were we doing in BSG in the first place? ;P

The rules are just guidelines. What we do with them counts. So, if the rules doesn't say naught about them being unable to compete just cause they're foreign, I say we leave it be.

The fact that foreigners have joined a SEA clan means nothing cause all clans have people from other places despite the clan's origin.

To achieve the level of play they are at is possible. As most would say, "Practice and Experience." Achieving this level of play some time in the future is better than never. We don't have to go all out yet.

Now, as Zergtastic has said, their community interaction is irrelevant. However, the idea of foreigners waltzing in and handing our asses to us AND then leaving with money is not a pleasant idea. Infact, this looks to me more like a call out to us saying, "You are like small fry. I will beat you and then take your money." Now, who the @#$% likes that?

The idea of having a 2 win rule is appealing because it would allow others a shot at glory. However, if we do the math, that just means we have 1 other winner every month assuming that someone else wins 2 times in a row then wins again the week after.

My true opinions? I am actually shaking in fear and wailing despair at the idea of foreigners who are a level above are playing. If you can't beat the current members of the community, what chance do you have of beating them? Deep down, I relish the challenge. In my head? I'm panicking and losing my game.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[mGMUSE]

they are not unbeatable. the top players on SEA are more than evenly matched with them.

and it's good for them to join so the top sea players dont have an easy win everytime :P

[Dox]

Originally Posted by Shortizz

I beat master on ladder

But yeh i remember when SixjaxMajor tried to play in one of our SEA tourney, he was refused. So i dont really know if the koreans shld be allowed in the CO as it is a SEA only tournament too? Besides, its incredibly hard to stop them from just using a SEA player's account so thats a pretty ''grey'' area.

I don't think people should be bringing up the SixJax.MajOr scenario because it technically has nothing to do with SC2SEA. It was a unilateral decision made exclusively by me as a result for entirely different reasons.

As for the Koreans, I'm very happy to see them participating in our events/community, and I'm even happier to see our own players strive and succeed to beat them. It's one of those underdog stories you just love watching unfold. "Who can beat the mighty Koreans this time?"

How many people do we have playing on the TW/KR server now? If there were some minor tournaments hosted on the KR server and you wanted to participate, I'm sure you'd be very offended if you were refused after you started winning "too much."

[matthras]

ThePandarine has pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to my personal thoughts.

It's a little selfish on my behalf, but I do feel that Koreans being in our tournaments will put a minority of us in the lower levels off participating in tournaments here on SC2SEA. As someone who doesn't have much time to play, but enjoys the community and participating in tournaments when I can, having someone relatively unknown waltz in and take first place does feel like a sore thumb, or just coming up against the guy first round, and knowing that you'll be knocked out first round, is incredibly demoralising.

If we got to know these people/they interacted a little within the community I honestly wouldn't be so sour about it.

However, it's only fair not to bar them from tournaments that they can already participate in. That much is fair, in my opinion. The tournaments we have now are as fine as it is, especially with Eddie's rules for the Master's Cup. I feel like this discussion would be more appropriate for future regular community tournaments that they can potentially participate in.

[Benji]

These koreans are EXACTLY what SEA needs right now. They will force us to up our skill level to points where we can actually compete with NA/EU players. As for our events, I see LAN events being the most important, and they won't be present for these (and if they are, thats even more awesome).

Shutting them out of our events hurts SEA. If players are going to give up on trying to get better because they aren't winning all these tournies due to the Koreans, thats not a fault with the Koreans, thats a fault in the mentality of our players.

Quick Comments

	SC2MKP:	agreed...
	Nvdeth:	how does playing a korean who's messing around on sea ladder un-seriously maybe 1 in 20 games force players to up their skill level?
	deL:	Playing 1 in 30 games with guys who play 12hrs a day won't bring you up to their level ;(

[Unstable]

That is happening here, is what is happening everywhere else, if you want the community to actually GROW then you need to force competition, same way I have said for ages STOP LADDERING ONLY ON SEA, why? because of exactly this

Quick Comments

SC2MKP:

[Delraich]

If this goes ahead, would this "rule" be limited to Korean players? If yes, I think you will have this discussion again when players from other regions also want to join in. I think that if the scene is going to be more inclusive, then it needs to be done across the board and not in bits.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Delraich

If this goes ahead, would this "rule" be limited to Korean players? If yes, I think you will have this discussion again when players from other regions also want to join in. I think that if the scene is going to be more inclusive, then it needs to be done across the board and not in bits.

If you mean Eddie's rules, the one's he's incorporating into the Masters cup and suggest for the CO as well?

Read his post a little closer; this rule applies to everyone. Korean or otherwise.

[Wawa]

If you're not failing, you're not growing.

[cRSenSei]

Like has been previously mentioned a thousand times, they're not unbeatable. Let them play, its not like they win EVERY tournament, phoenix got knocked out first round last ESL (by me).

I think I'm like 5-2 vs PhoeNix 2-4 vs dragon 1-0 vs master and yet to play kingkong. And I don't consider myself the tip top of SEA, so IMO we have better players than them maybe it's just the fear when playing them that they have to get over.

[pikk0n]

The more the merrier. That way, when we start beating them, the NA snobs will have to deal with random SEA players' games being casted by Day9, Husky or HD. Well, even if we lost, the games would be casted by them. I've only ever seen Yoon, tgun, moonglade, and NeoRedArchon's game casted. Then again, I only follow Husky and HD. Not Day9. Better exposure helps the SEA scene and helps us rub some into the snobbish NA players' faces.

By the way, I saw Eizcaj (jaczie) a zerg play 2 games against WhiteRa. That game was casted by Husky.Is that our Jaczie or Del?

[deL]

I say let them play but make them inelligible for the prizemoney. They are still going to ladder on our server so it won't drive them away, and if they do still choose to participate then you get all the benefits without denying local talent a reason to participate. It's fine now with just 1-2 progamers playing in it but what about when there's 4 or 5 and you can't even get to the semis? A lot of top players justify spending so much time practicing because they can get tangible feedback from their effort in the form of small prizes.

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Why they should be allowed to compete
- Forces SEA players to play better in order to win tournaments, raising the competitive level
- The rules don't currently state they cannot compete
- Both joined a SEA clan known as team SPR and have some participation with the community

1st point - No it doesn't we're never going to be able to compete if they are trying. The few wins against them are in ZvZ which is a bit more luck-based or in ladder where they presumably don't give a shit. It won't so much raise the local competition to meet them so much as discourage top players whose motivation is tournament wins.
2nd point - Easy to change.
3rd point - No, they talk to some other Koreans who are on the server probably because they have no one else to talk to, they don't really 'contribute' to the 'community'. I would personally disclude them as SPR members from any clan wars or clan competitions that SPR entered. gts didn't join SPR he is still a part of ST, it doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Why they shouldn't be allowed to compete
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.
- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.
- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do.

1st point - Not extremely difficult, impossible. I am not talking about gts in particular yes people take a few games off him but these are like the C-teamers, if we set the precedent now and then take it back when more/better Korean players want to play we're just going to look bitter.
2nd point - Correct. They contribute less than MajOr did - at least he provided a few lols.
3rd point - Exactly. People keep saying we're going to improve to get up to a competitive level to them but it's not true. You might pick up a few tips here or there but no more than if you went and downloaded a replay pack from a top player. The fact is if the reasons for their higher skill level are 1) playing 12 hours a day and 2) communicating with other pros in Korea then there's no way we're going to replicate that.

Originally Posted by pikk0n

By the way, I saw Eizcaj (jaczie) a zerg play 2 games against WhiteRa. That game was casted by Husky.Is that our Jaczie or Del?

Haha. It's ziE's account but usually Ciara (Danish Zerg) plays on it, though if it were around the time of NASL it may have been FOXMoon playing on it. What I am confused about is why you assume it could be me when it's jaczie's account? xD

Quick Comments

	PiG:	I really think Del has some great points here guys.
	TAEdgE:	good to know about ciara
	mOOnGLaDe:	DeL crushing on JACZIE OOOO SHIT
	Champi:	i agree with del, hes a wise man
	TCPLemminks:	agreed

[ToRXypha]

Originally Posted by Shortizz

I beat master on ladder

But yeh i remember when SixjaxMajor tried to play in one of our SEA tourney, he was refused. So i dont really know if the koreans shld be allowed in the CO as it is a SEA only tournament too? Besides, its incredibly hard to stop them from just using a SEA player's account so thats a pretty ''grey'' area.

Major was refused as Dox specifically want the SEA community to be promoted and on top of that he then smurfed it.

I'm not likely to play the korean players any time soon, but wouldn't you rather be playing better and better people.

[PiG]

From a players perspective rather than an organiser I have to say yes, I've taken games off 'gts' and SlayerSdragon and whilst I haven't competed against any of these Koreans in tournaments I know they are beatable.

That being said they are incredible players well above my level. The game that heaps of people saw playing Dragon on his stream he did a stupid mass bio build on crossmap Typhon because up until me he'd been getting matched with diamonds. I won cos he did a stupid s*** build.

At the moment I don't mind a bit of added competition but from the past dominance of these C-team Koreans I am afraid that if any more come it will be impossible to beat them unless I somehow find someone to pay my rent and food whilst I train 8+ hours a day. Del's points were exactly what was on my mind. These guys joined SPR but I'm pretty sure they speak next to no english and don't contribute to the community very much. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At the moment there are pretty tight bonds and rivalries between many of the top players on SEA and alot of us tend to chat about strategy, stream, hop on streams to commentate and train together. Many of us post on the forums and stuff as well but I can definitely see interest in the local scene actually dieing down as our chances of actually getting to play semifinals and finals on stream are crushed by guys from pro teams that are just hopping servers to, in-effect, get payed a small bonus for their practice hours.

If more pro players start coming to SEA for easy money then sure the competition will go up and it won't be as easy for them but will SEA players still be able to compete at the highest level regularly? The answer is no. Completely and unequivocally no.

Why?

Ok NA and EU are MUCH stronger servers then SEA. Why? Because they have friggin huge player bases and bucketloads of sponsorships and large LAN events to entice players to train more and more. The very top of SEA players on the other hand can always take a few games off those players but actually beat them consistently? Hells no.

Only the FXO sponsored players really are at their level at this point. With sponsored players like Redarchon, Yoon (players like mafia, deth, iaguz, rossi, light, azz, jazbas, nGenMaster around here too. If not for conscription I'd probably have quite alot of SG names here too).

Now lets compare these servers with KR. If you've seen all the recent NA/EU events you've noticed Korean progamers dominating. These players come from a culture that is more accepting of the game as an occupation/sport and has a wider player base.

Did they win MLG? No they crushed it. They just crushed Jinro, Sase, Naniwa and Thorzain all yesterday with a total score of KR 8: Sweden: 1



So what is all this rambling getting to? Well basically re-read Del's post and really think about what he's saying. I think you'll find you agree that sure Kingkong and Soulman are beatable but they are already dominating, and if just 5-6 more players come, maybe including some B-teamers. Then this scene is screwed as Korean becomes the language of all our top players. Goodbye learning from our better players. Welcome to the world of idolising these foreign players who we learn nothing from (and don't mention the replays thing you can get pro reps anywhere).

Hate to sound nihilistic about our skill-level but starcraft is a game that takes huge practice and until we get a culture that endorses starcraft as a sport we can't afford to practice that much. If we don't seriously consider some sort of restriction now then what will make us decide to restrict foreign players? Is it only after they win EVERY bit of prize money in SEA? Up to now we haven't faced this dilemma its not like SEA or sc2sea is changing its mind but we should definitely make an informed decision before we simply look bitter, having tested our mettle against theirs and finding ours sadly lacking.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	|Erasmus|:	I like what he says... very smart.
	deL:	Said what I said but less rage-ey sounding :)
	TAriiChard:
	ToRPandarine:	makes a very good argument
	nirvAnA:
	Champi:	+1
	nGenLight:	I really like this guy
	Fadey:

[TAEdgE]

I love the challenge, there are more notable sign ups in these tournaments and people should want to test themselves vs these players. Matter of personal preference though. They may not be doing anything directly for the community, but they give great practice to people at the top of the SEA ladder. It's a great experience to vs them, shows glaring issues in your play, maybe get some new builds for friends etc. The fact they play on this ladder, which you'd expect would help them less than KR or EU, is pretty cool.

That's just my opinion though, deL and PiG raise great points that make sense for the majority.

Quick Comments

	deL:	I like them laddering here even though it takes up valuable GM spots, but playing in prizes tours is different.
	nGenLight:	I tend to feel the same way, but what PiG said is probably more beneificial to the entire community, oh and I really like this guy too.

[Satu]

Im glad that the silent majority has become a lot more vocal in this thread that the vocal minority. So far we've mainly heard rants from players who lost to the koreans in tournaments, Im pretty glad to see not everyone shares the same opinion. Theres no way we could change the rules further than the rule eddie made up for the masters cup, although that might not be implemented for the community open. Edit: Not my own decision to make anyway ;P

Although, on the topic of stopping a hat streaks, I don't see it as changing heaps, there will most likely be one korean left instead of two, so it'd still be a good challenge for SEA players.

I love how I made that section in the OP for interesting opinions, then everyone goes forward and says something interesting or credible to the discussion. Way to make my job impossible guys, thats how good the discussion has been!

Btw, Im being careful not to put my opinions forward on this, I'll look biased no matter what because they joined SPR and are giving us advertising space at the very least. When you look at the points in the OP, don't think they are my actual opinion, those are just there to give a general idea of what the discussion should be about.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

I love how I made that section in the OP for interesting opinions, then everyone goes forward and says something interesting or credible to the discussion. Way to make my job impossible guys, thats how good the discussion has been!

I know what you mean man. Some very good arguments here, on both ends of the spectrum and even those who are in between. I really liked reading all the posts, and seeing nothing but mature and valid arguments. Great community.

I've come to decision personally after reading them all. Eddie's rules are quite good, as they keep fairness for not only the Master's Cup but I can see them working for the CO as well. I still believe the Korean pros being around on the SEA ladder and in tournaments is a good thing for player development, but that said I wouldn't want a situation where the scene dies from players looking at tournaments and seeing it half populated by IM, SlayerS, fOu, etc. C or B teamers; who are always going to dominate in a tournament in this region. There needs to be balance.

I believe Eddie's rules should be applied to the CO, even on a trial basis with possible modifications based on feedback. I agree with a lot of deL's points as well, they don't really contribute to the community beyond being an obstacle to overcome for the best players and I wouldn't want to see them take prize money from a SEA tournament week after week after week. The SEA community is first and foremost what needs to benefit from a CO.

[AxSGRiM]

I would honestly let them play because I love Koreans!

[Jumbled]

I don't mind them competing in some tournaments on SEA, but I think it's also important to have some tournaments restricted to SEA residents. Having some that are restricted by location does help foster the growth of the SEA scene. Either way, the rules should be made clear for each tournament.

[mOOnGLaDe]

he barely beat me once in a tournament..

[ROOT`iaguz]

GODDOM KOREANS TAKING ALL MY E-SPORTS DOLLARS. RAWRARGHAGHAGH.

Well, to be honest I think me and yoon aren't far off from beating King Kong. If you saw our games 2 CO's ago, I ******* HAD him game 3 if I decided to actually watch my army when it's in hostile territory other then do other stuff. I'm not sure about beating Dragon (got a BO win on his stream that was kinda fun) or Master (not sure if we've ever played).

That said, I do agree that it would suck for SEA just to be a vacation resort for Koreans. I dunno.

[aLtNinja]

I agree with deL and PiG

[Cordance]

A long long while back we use to have a rule stating if you won the community open you could not play for I believe it was 4 weeks, to give a rotation to the winners. I think at the time it was to stop moonglade from ninjaing all our money. It might be worth looking at revisiting that rule. This would enable those who wish to play against these said best.

Also if they cheat around this rule you will know if they are just here to ninja your money.

Quick Comments

PiG:

[Primex]

I think it's good that they have come here to see and test the skill level of SEA players. But if they just stick around to take all the wins and money from tournaments, then that's not really any fun or good. I have noticed that they ladder, well at least KingKong because he is GM so maybe he/they are here to stay?

[deL]

You Tube

You Tube

Quick Comments

SC2MKP:

[JacziE]

OT: I love the discussion in this thread. Super constructive. Especially the reputation comments!

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

i always hoped for the rep to be used like this hence my "naziness" against a few whiners who said remove it completely

[noobinater]

Seems pretty straight forward.

Do they live long term in an SEA country?
Moonglade lives in Australia long term so if he plays from Korea that's fine.
Major lives in the US and has no buisness playing in an SEA tournment.

If these guys live in Korea, they shouldn't be playing in "SEA" tournaments. This isn't something like the IPL, this is an sc2sea.com tournament.

Slightly OT: I love how people like Del are saying it's too hard for us to compete with them because we can't match their practice regime, what do they think Gold league scrubs feel when they enter the GPD for example :P

[AZKziek]

I'm not sure why people would attempt to disallow others to participate in SEA tournaments as there's no real way to police this anyway. It's still entirely possible for players to use their friends accounts, etc to still participate in tournaments.

EDIT: American players aren't as good as the top level Koreans for the most part aswell, but do they disallow Koreans to play in SEA? No. They've even created partnerships with Gom to help bring both countries together. All this is doing is if we disallow Koreans to play here is creating a negative view of the SEA scene.

[TCPLemminks]

DeL pretty much said what I wanted to say, in that let them play but make the prize money only eligible for SEA citizens. Another idea would be to make the prize more of a community rep reward than a financial reward. I'm guessing that we could remove the prize pool from one CO and see if they still decide to participate in it or not. If they don't, then we can assume they're just joining for the "easy" money.

It's interesting to note that they haven't posted in this thread yet, as I'm sure some of their clanmates who frequent here would have told them about it. It would also be nice if we could get a statement from the leader of SPR about their participation in their community, be it constructive or not.

In all fairness it's not really a community open if the people who win it are not part of the community...Then again there are those who participate and are not part of the community as well.

[AZKziek]

Originally Posted by Lemminks

DeL pretty much said what I wanted to say, in that let them play but make the prize money only eligible for SEA citizens. Another idea would be to make the prize more of a community rep reward than a financial reward. I'm guessing that we could remove the prize pool from one CO and see if they still decide to participate in it or not. If they don't, then we can assume they're just joining for the "easy" money.

It's interesting to note that they haven't posted in this thread yet, as I'm sure some of their clanmates who frequent here would have told them about it. It would also be nice if we could get a statement from the leader of SPR about their participation in their community, be it constructive or not.

In all fairness it's not really a community open if the people who win it are not part of the community...Then again there are those who participate and are not part of the community as well.

Why would anyone want to take up their own time to play in a TOURNAMENT for no reward? That's the entire purpose of playing.

[TCPLemminks]

Originally Posted by AZKziek

Why would anyone want to take up their own time to play in a TOURNAMENT for no reward? That's the entire purpose of playing.

It may just be humble ol' me but the spirit of the competition and it gives a brilliant chance to learn from better players. To be fair the BSG doesn't have a financial reward, unless you count qualification to the BSG cup, which is unfortunately now discontinued.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Haha. It's ziE's account but usually Ciara (Danish Zerg) plays on it, though if it were around the time of NASL it may have been FOXMoon playing on it. What I am confused about is why you assume it could be me when it's jaczie's account? xD

Assumed it's you because it was a zerg player, the 2 of you seemed like close friends and there was a massive outrage on youtube about not gging WhiteRa. LOL! Thought it was you trolling WhiteRa with the no gg leaves.

[cRSenSei]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

Assumed it's you because it was a zerg player, the 2 of you seemed like close friends and there was a massive outrage on youtube about not gging WhiteRa. LOL! Thought it was you trolling WhiteRa with the no gg leaves.

del is protoss bro?

[deL]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

Assumed it's you because it was a zerg player, the 2 of you seemed like close friends and there was a massive outrage on youtube about not gging WhiteRa. LOL! Thought it was you trolling WhiteRa with the no gg leaves.

I wish I was zerg, then I might win a game. Nah White-Ra is a champ I only troll retards, I am actually pretty hurt you compare my trolling to Ciara's snotty BM.

[Xenomorph]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

3rd point - I would personally disclude them as SPR members from any clan wars or clan competitions that SPR entered.

Del, when master and gts came to us I immediately realised that in clan wars/competitions etc that they would cause a lot of debate over whether they could play or not. I have told my team what I am about to say here, I would ONLY use one of them as a closer if:
1. We were in a terrible spot and down 3-0/4-0 and
2. If no other member thought they could reverse all kill, which is very unlikely as most if not all of my members have a lot of self confidence and skill required to do this.

What I'm trying to say is, it'd be very very unlikely that I'd use them as both me and my members see that it may be viewed as unfair. SPR respects the community very highly and wants to try and satisfy its views. If people would like to give feedback or elaborate on the usage of soulman and ych, that'd be appreciated.

Cheers

[deL]

yCh is already in ST he's 100% unusable. Soulman I still think is pretty unfair even if he is a free agent at the moment, no one wants SEA CWs to turn in to some 'token korean vs token korean' match.

[Xenomorph]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

yCh is already in ST he's 100% unusable. Soulman I still think is pretty unfair even if he is a free agent at the moment, no one wants SEA CWs to turn in to some 'token korean vs token korean' match.

I think that saying that ych is 100% unusable off the bat is pretty harsh. If its an offcial SEA team league, I would think it best that it be upto the admins/organisers to decide on the rules on the usage of these 2 players, whether it be under my terms which I stated above or even stricter, or even completely barring them from the tourney. If its a friendly clan war between SPR and clan X I don't see what'd be wrong with using one of them as a closer.

[deL]

Because he's already in a team?

[ShinyA]

Agree with Del~

[AZKziek]

Something else to point out, the name of the event is a "community open".
Ask yourself, are they part of the SC2SEA community? The answer lies within.

[PrimeSPR]

Originally Posted by dippa

That first point is essentially an extension of xenophobia.

The second point is especially rubbish. Should people who don't participate in the community be barred from playing in the open? Koreans contribute more to the community by playing than ANZ/SEA people who rock up the tourney but don't post on forums, because the replays they leave behind give us a benchmark that we can all learn from.

The dedication and free time argument is a bit of a cop-out as well, because it simply collapses when Australia has plenty of people who earn money from streaming, coaching and have sponsorships. Those players should still be aiming to test their skills against the Koreans.

Plus, many SEA players ladder on Korea anyway.

What are we scared of? Losing? In a free tournament with minuscule prizes?

Harden the **** up.

i heart u dippizukau ******* manwhore

[Benji]

Originally Posted by AZKziek

Something else to point out, the name of the event is a "community open".
Ask yourself, are they part of the SC2SEA community? The answer lies within.

Community is such a vague word, Half the people that sign up don't even post on the forums. Should they be barred from entering as well?

[deL]

Originally Posted by Benji

Community is such a vague word, Half the people that sign up don't even post on the forums. Should they be barred from entering as well?

Seeding should be based on post count.

Quick Comments

PiG:

Nah make it reputation that time I get no.1! :P

[ToRPandarine]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Seeding should be based on post count.

seeding as in like rank? cause if that's the case im screwed XD

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Seeding should be based on post count.

Del just want to have the highest seed for once in his life

[deL]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Del just want to have the highest seed for once in his life

It would be the 2nd time in my life ;D

[Benji]

I think Nirvana has you beat tho ^_^

[TidaL]

let them play

Quick Comments

deL:

Well presented argument.

[aLtShortizz]

I just realised that i didnt vote the last time round.

Anyways, i agree with PiG here. If all our tournaments are won by Koreans who doesnt even speak english much less communicate with our players, then im pretty sure everyone would lose interest in tournaments pretty soon.

The idea of the SEA Server being a playground for C-Team Koreans and our prize winnings going to them just doesnt sit right with me. While i really like playing against them, i dont see how they are so different from when Major used a SEA acc to try playing. And like Del said, at least that provided a few good Lols.

[AZKziek]

Originally Posted by Benji

Community is such a vague word, Half the people that sign up don't even post on the forums. Should they be barred from entering as well?

Depends on how you define "community". People who use the forums? People who are active on ladder? People who play on SEA primarily? People who live in SEA countries?
It's upto the event host I guess.

[covetousrat]

Do you want SEA players to stay in the Bronze age forever? It is definitely time for SEA players to play against the big boys to prove ourselves. Without playing at the highest level, SEA will just be another dead server.

urvcovetous
sc2tips.blogspot.com

[nirvAnA]

Verdict:

I've been paying close attention to this thread over the last couple of days and have finally reached a verdict. Based on the poll results and consideration of the posts in this thread as well as discussion with mods, I have decided on the following rules regarding participation in ours COs. Basically its the "foreigners are welcome in our CO if they are part of the SEA community" rule.

1. All SEA/ANZ citizens whether residing in SEA/ANZ and whether active or not on the SEA ladder are welcome to join. This is our privilege! (e.g tgun, kowi, Azz)
2. "Foreigners" will be allowed to join IF they are residing in SEA/ANZ or plan to for a reasonable time frame (e.g Targa - Norwegian University student in Melbourne, nGenBaron - Chinese national student in Singapore)
3. Lastly if the player has not passed one of the first two conditions, an exception can be made if the player is "part of the community." This player has to have played over 120 ladder games on his account for the current season.
4. As of now there will be no restriction for consecutive winners.

It's hard to define "part of the community." In this instance I refer to the SEA community and not the sc2sea community. Although the sc2sea community are the only reason why these tournaments are sponsored and even happen in the first place, there are tons of SEA players who don't participate much in the forums here and are still allowed join all our tournaments so I don't see how it should be any different as long as they are part of the SEA community. Perhaps for our special events like the upcoming race wars - invites would be given to the more active and vocal members of the sc2sea community. e.g edge pig light pinder hut iaguz. Still uncertain.

"Part of the SEA community" will be defined as playing at least 120 ladder games per season on our servers. This number of games needed will be increased as the season goes on. So if they want to play in our community tournaments they HAVE to be active in our community. This is to deter the "doomsday" scenario PiG is talking about where Koreans simply log in to SEA to take our monies, wimmin and children. At the same time Koreans who actively play on our ladders regularly help improve the standard and push our players to improve. I do not want to discourage this as I feel the standard of our ladder has already improved with one dragon flying around and everyone trying their best to snipe him, but end up committing snipeacide. Still, they try their best and improve.

Smurfing - Of course if some choose to smurf on someone else's account to circumvent the rule they will simply be not given any prize money should they win. If they are caught for e.g getting someone else to maintain their minimum number of games that counts as smurfing and both parties just get banned.

How does this affect certain players?

SlayerSDragon (NyangKoSenSe) - Allowed to play in our CO, has the minimum ladder games.
SoulmanfOu (master) - Allowed to play in our CO, has the minimum ladder games.
ST_KingKong (gts/ychspr) - Not allowed to play in our CO, he has been PMed about this new rule. I welcome his participation if he becomes part of our SEA community by laddering more and meeting the requirement rather than just hopping on every Wednesday for our CO.
Major - Don't know why he was even brought up, his incident was unrelated as he was breaking specific rules. Major is welcome to play in the CO if he starts laddering actively on SEA and has over 120 ladder games. I don't see that ever happening tho

Summary

Many of the top SEA players are naturally very competitive and welcome the challenge. They appear to be passionate about uping their game and defeating them and I do not wish to deny them this opportunity. And as many have mentioned these players are not unbeatable and the skill gap isn't that wide. Just a while ago YoonYJ beat GTS 5-0 or so in customs and then went on to beat him again in round 1 of the CO.

The opinions of the donators were also extremely important in this. I guess what many of the donators, voters and spectators want to see is how the best of SEA measure up against these players and the exciting matches they produce. The foreign dynamic not only improves the standard of our play, but gives us more reason to cheer our players and more exciting matches to watch. This is why only 5% of the people in the pool voted strictly against letting any foreigners play. As this is what most players, spectators/fans and donators want and is basically what the community wants, this is what will be done.

Lastly, as of now this verdict only affects the COs. These rules may also be updated at any time should I feel it necessary, for e.g if doomsday actually happens and 20 Korean "C teamers" participate in our COs every week and we stand 0% chance then I could care less about being "bitter" i'll just change the rules and lmao for playing 120 games on our server k thx bye.

- nirvAnA

Quick Comments

	ToRPandarine:	I guess this will work..would've like to see maybe the cap but the 120 games req is good enuff i guess :) good call
	deL:	120 games is what they play in a lunch break in Korea ;(
	PiG:
	pikk0n:	Good apart from the fact that major is able to join us? BAN HIM!!! RAGE!!!!!!!!!! We all hate him!
	Cordance:	Sounds solid and thought out. The numbers may need some tweeking on games we shall see.

[AZKziek]

Hallelujah!

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

I wish I was zerg, then I might win a game. Nah White-Ra is a champ I only troll retards, I am actually pretty hurt you compare my trolling to Ciara's snotty BM.

LOL! Would you feel better if I say I don't know who Ciara is?

*looks back to make sure that Ciara isn't sneaking up with a knife to stab me*

So you're protoss.... The whole time I thought you were zerg. LOL! My bad.

[Azure]

I agree let them play.
I usually see the same names at the top each week.
Now they will need to work for it creating more competition on SEA

[dippa]

why would you even allow major to play after the gigantic cockslapping he gave to the entire SEA community?

you don't let someone shit all over your house for free. oh wait, that's exactly what we're doing.

the douchebag should be banned for life. he doesn't get anything out of our CO's that he can't get elsewhere and he isn't a positive influence on the planet, let alone any starcraft scene he happens to hover in.

as for the hoops that koreans have to jump through: utterly, utterly ridiculous. i think it'd be a far more measured response to react IF this absurd doomsday scenario ever eventuates, rather than creating a set of unknown consequences - like warding off extremely talented players who could teach players a thing or two - by acting ahead of time.

from what i saw, more than two-thirds of those voted to allow koreans to play unhindered. i didn't see any option to vote for these bizarre restrictions. its your tournament though, so do what you like. i just hope that koreans aren't put off from competing by these silly rules.

edit: would just like to point out that i am already lubed up for any butthurt koreans wish to deliver. also, playing on the korean/tw server is awesome, everyone should get an account

[NvRossi]

pretty happy with that response nirvana.


i still am pretty against them playing in our tournies and facepalm at the argument that we improve from having them in our tournaments.

[nirvAnA]

yeap actually the rules above will stand with one minor adjustment with that being major being banned from all our tournaments for at least the next 6 months. thanks for the feedback.

[dippa]

i wish it was for life, but at least its something. boobs for nirvana!