[Unstable]

That is happening here, is what is happening everywhere else, if you want the community to actually GROW then you need to force competition, same way I have said for ages STOP LADDERING ONLY ON SEA, why? because of exactly this

Quick Comments

SC2MKP:

[Delraich]

If this goes ahead, would this "rule" be limited to Korean players? If yes, I think you will have this discussion again when players from other regions also want to join in. I think that if the scene is going to be more inclusive, then it needs to be done across the board and not in bits.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Delraich

If this goes ahead, would this "rule" be limited to Korean players? If yes, I think you will have this discussion again when players from other regions also want to join in. I think that if the scene is going to be more inclusive, then it needs to be done across the board and not in bits.

If you mean Eddie's rules, the one's he's incorporating into the Masters cup and suggest for the CO as well?

Read his post a little closer; this rule applies to everyone. Korean or otherwise.

[Wawa]

If you're not failing, you're not growing.

[cRSenSei]

Like has been previously mentioned a thousand times, they're not unbeatable. Let them play, its not like they win EVERY tournament, phoenix got knocked out first round last ESL (by me).

I think I'm like 5-2 vs PhoeNix 2-4 vs dragon 1-0 vs master and yet to play kingkong. And I don't consider myself the tip top of SEA, so IMO we have better players than them maybe it's just the fear when playing them that they have to get over.

[pikk0n]

The more the merrier. That way, when we start beating them, the NA snobs will have to deal with random SEA players' games being casted by Day9, Husky or HD. Well, even if we lost, the games would be casted by them. I've only ever seen Yoon, tgun, moonglade, and NeoRedArchon's game casted. Then again, I only follow Husky and HD. Not Day9. Better exposure helps the SEA scene and helps us rub some into the snobbish NA players' faces.

By the way, I saw Eizcaj (jaczie) a zerg play 2 games against WhiteRa. That game was casted by Husky.Is that our Jaczie or Del?

[deL]

I say let them play but make them inelligible for the prizemoney. They are still going to ladder on our server so it won't drive them away, and if they do still choose to participate then you get all the benefits without denying local talent a reason to participate. It's fine now with just 1-2 progamers playing in it but what about when there's 4 or 5 and you can't even get to the semis? A lot of top players justify spending so much time practicing because they can get tangible feedback from their effort in the form of small prizes.

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Why they should be allowed to compete
- Forces SEA players to play better in order to win tournaments, raising the competitive level
- The rules don't currently state they cannot compete
- Both joined a SEA clan known as team SPR and have some participation with the community

1st point - No it doesn't we're never going to be able to compete if they are trying. The few wins against them are in ZvZ which is a bit more luck-based or in ladder where they presumably don't give a shit. It won't so much raise the local competition to meet them so much as discourage top players whose motivation is tournament wins.
2nd point - Easy to change.
3rd point - No, they talk to some other Koreans who are on the server probably because they have no one else to talk to, they don't really 'contribute' to the 'community'. I would personally disclude them as SPR members from any clan wars or clan competitions that SPR entered. gts didn't join SPR he is still a part of ST, it doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Why they shouldn't be allowed to compete
- Its currently extremely difficult for SEA players to compete with them, even the high level players. They won't be able to catch up in skill level any time soon.
- They don't participate that much with the community, when they do it is usually to win tournaments.
- No one in SEA at the highest levels has the dedication as well as the amount of free time necessary to train like they do.

1st point - Not extremely difficult, impossible. I am not talking about gts in particular yes people take a few games off him but these are like the C-teamers, if we set the precedent now and then take it back when more/better Korean players want to play we're just going to look bitter.
2nd point - Correct. They contribute less than MajOr did - at least he provided a few lols.
3rd point - Exactly. People keep saying we're going to improve to get up to a competitive level to them but it's not true. You might pick up a few tips here or there but no more than if you went and downloaded a replay pack from a top player. The fact is if the reasons for their higher skill level are 1) playing 12 hours a day and 2) communicating with other pros in Korea then there's no way we're going to replicate that.

Originally Posted by pikk0n

By the way, I saw Eizcaj (jaczie) a zerg play 2 games against WhiteRa. That game was casted by Husky.Is that our Jaczie or Del?

Haha. It's ziE's account but usually Ciara (Danish Zerg) plays on it, though if it were around the time of NASL it may have been FOXMoon playing on it. What I am confused about is why you assume it could be me when it's jaczie's account? xD

Quick Comments

	PiG:	I really think Del has some great points here guys.
	TAEdgE:	good to know about ciara
	mOOnGLaDe:	DeL crushing on JACZIE OOOO SHIT
	Champi:	i agree with del, hes a wise man
	TCPLemminks:	agreed

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Haha. It's ziE's account but usually Ciara (Danish Zerg) plays on it, though if it were around the time of NASL it may have been FOXMoon playing on it. What I am confused about is why you assume it could be me when it's jaczie's account? xD

Assumed it's you because it was a zerg player, the 2 of you seemed like close friends and there was a massive outrage on youtube about not gging WhiteRa. LOL! Thought it was you trolling WhiteRa with the no gg leaves.

[cRSenSei]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

Assumed it's you because it was a zerg player, the 2 of you seemed like close friends and there was a massive outrage on youtube about not gging WhiteRa. LOL! Thought it was you trolling WhiteRa with the no gg leaves.

del is protoss bro?

[deL]

Originally Posted by pikk0n

Assumed it's you because it was a zerg player, the 2 of you seemed like close friends and there was a massive outrage on youtube about not gging WhiteRa. LOL! Thought it was you trolling WhiteRa with the no gg leaves.

I wish I was zerg, then I might win a game. Nah White-Ra is a champ I only troll retards, I am actually pretty hurt you compare my trolling to Ciara's snotty BM.

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

I wish I was zerg, then I might win a game. Nah White-Ra is a champ I only troll retards, I am actually pretty hurt you compare my trolling to Ciara's snotty BM.

LOL! Would you feel better if I say I don't know who Ciara is?

*looks back to make sure that Ciara isn't sneaking up with a knife to stab me*

So you're protoss.... The whole time I thought you were zerg. LOL! My bad.

[Xenomorph]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

3rd point - I would personally disclude them as SPR members from any clan wars or clan competitions that SPR entered.

Del, when master and gts came to us I immediately realised that in clan wars/competitions etc that they would cause a lot of debate over whether they could play or not. I have told my team what I am about to say here, I would ONLY use one of them as a closer if:
1. We were in a terrible spot and down 3-0/4-0 and
2. If no other member thought they could reverse all kill, which is very unlikely as most if not all of my members have a lot of self confidence and skill required to do this.

What I'm trying to say is, it'd be very very unlikely that I'd use them as both me and my members see that it may be viewed as unfair. SPR respects the community very highly and wants to try and satisfy its views. If people would like to give feedback or elaborate on the usage of soulman and ych, that'd be appreciated.

Cheers

[PiG]

From a players perspective rather than an organiser I have to say yes, I've taken games off 'gts' and SlayerSdragon and whilst I haven't competed against any of these Koreans in tournaments I know they are beatable.

That being said they are incredible players well above my level. The game that heaps of people saw playing Dragon on his stream he did a stupid mass bio build on crossmap Typhon because up until me he'd been getting matched with diamonds. I won cos he did a stupid s*** build.

At the moment I don't mind a bit of added competition but from the past dominance of these C-team Koreans I am afraid that if any more come it will be impossible to beat them unless I somehow find someone to pay my rent and food whilst I train 8+ hours a day. Del's points were exactly what was on my mind. These guys joined SPR but I'm pretty sure they speak next to no english and don't contribute to the community very much. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At the moment there are pretty tight bonds and rivalries between many of the top players on SEA and alot of us tend to chat about strategy, stream, hop on streams to commentate and train together. Many of us post on the forums and stuff as well but I can definitely see interest in the local scene actually dieing down as our chances of actually getting to play semifinals and finals on stream are crushed by guys from pro teams that are just hopping servers to, in-effect, get payed a small bonus for their practice hours.

If more pro players start coming to SEA for easy money then sure the competition will go up and it won't be as easy for them but will SEA players still be able to compete at the highest level regularly? The answer is no. Completely and unequivocally no.

Why?

Ok NA and EU are MUCH stronger servers then SEA. Why? Because they have friggin huge player bases and bucketloads of sponsorships and large LAN events to entice players to train more and more. The very top of SEA players on the other hand can always take a few games off those players but actually beat them consistently? Hells no.

Only the FXO sponsored players really are at their level at this point. With sponsored players like Redarchon, Yoon (players like mafia, deth, iaguz, rossi, light, azz, jazbas, nGenMaster around here too. If not for conscription I'd probably have quite alot of SG names here too).

Now lets compare these servers with KR. If you've seen all the recent NA/EU events you've noticed Korean progamers dominating. These players come from a culture that is more accepting of the game as an occupation/sport and has a wider player base.

Did they win MLG? No they crushed it. They just crushed Jinro, Sase, Naniwa and Thorzain all yesterday with a total score of KR 8: Sweden: 1



So what is all this rambling getting to? Well basically re-read Del's post and really think about what he's saying. I think you'll find you agree that sure Kingkong and Soulman are beatable but they are already dominating, and if just 5-6 more players come, maybe including some B-teamers. Then this scene is screwed as Korean becomes the language of all our top players. Goodbye learning from our better players. Welcome to the world of idolising these foreign players who we learn nothing from (and don't mention the replays thing you can get pro reps anywhere).

Hate to sound nihilistic about our skill-level but starcraft is a game that takes huge practice and until we get a culture that endorses starcraft as a sport we can't afford to practice that much. If we don't seriously consider some sort of restriction now then what will make us decide to restrict foreign players? Is it only after they win EVERY bit of prize money in SEA? Up to now we haven't faced this dilemma its not like SEA or sc2sea is changing its mind but we should definitely make an informed decision before we simply look bitter, having tested our mettle against theirs and finding ours sadly lacking.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	|Erasmus|:	I like what he says... very smart.
	deL:	Said what I said but less rage-ey sounding :)
	TAriiChard:
	ToRPandarine:	makes a very good argument
	nirvAnA:
	Champi:	+1
	nGenLight:	I really like this guy
	Fadey:

[TAEdgE]

I love the challenge, there are more notable sign ups in these tournaments and people should want to test themselves vs these players. Matter of personal preference though. They may not be doing anything directly for the community, but they give great practice to people at the top of the SEA ladder. It's a great experience to vs them, shows glaring issues in your play, maybe get some new builds for friends etc. The fact they play on this ladder, which you'd expect would help them less than KR or EU, is pretty cool.

That's just my opinion though, deL and PiG raise great points that make sense for the majority.

Quick Comments

	deL:	I like them laddering here even though it takes up valuable GM spots, but playing in prizes tours is different.
	nGenLight:	I tend to feel the same way, but what PiG said is probably more beneificial to the entire community, oh and I really like this guy too.

[Satu]

Im glad that the silent majority has become a lot more vocal in this thread that the vocal minority. So far we've mainly heard rants from players who lost to the koreans in tournaments, Im pretty glad to see not everyone shares the same opinion. Theres no way we could change the rules further than the rule eddie made up for the masters cup, although that might not be implemented for the community open. Edit: Not my own decision to make anyway ;P

Although, on the topic of stopping a hat streaks, I don't see it as changing heaps, there will most likely be one korean left instead of two, so it'd still be a good challenge for SEA players.

I love how I made that section in the OP for interesting opinions, then everyone goes forward and says something interesting or credible to the discussion. Way to make my job impossible guys, thats how good the discussion has been!

Btw, Im being careful not to put my opinions forward on this, I'll look biased no matter what because they joined SPR and are giving us advertising space at the very least. When you look at the points in the OP, don't think they are my actual opinion, those are just there to give a general idea of what the discussion should be about.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

I love how I made that section in the OP for interesting opinions, then everyone goes forward and says something interesting or credible to the discussion. Way to make my job impossible guys, thats how good the discussion has been!

I know what you mean man. Some very good arguments here, on both ends of the spectrum and even those who are in between. I really liked reading all the posts, and seeing nothing but mature and valid arguments. Great community.

I've come to decision personally after reading them all. Eddie's rules are quite good, as they keep fairness for not only the Master's Cup but I can see them working for the CO as well. I still believe the Korean pros being around on the SEA ladder and in tournaments is a good thing for player development, but that said I wouldn't want a situation where the scene dies from players looking at tournaments and seeing it half populated by IM, SlayerS, fOu, etc. C or B teamers; who are always going to dominate in a tournament in this region. There needs to be balance.

I believe Eddie's rules should be applied to the CO, even on a trial basis with possible modifications based on feedback. I agree with a lot of deL's points as well, they don't really contribute to the community beyond being an obstacle to overcome for the best players and I wouldn't want to see them take prize money from a SEA tournament week after week after week. The SEA community is first and foremost what needs to benefit from a CO.

[AxSGRiM]

I would honestly let them play because I love Koreans!

[Jumbled]

I don't mind them competing in some tournaments on SEA, but I think it's also important to have some tournaments restricted to SEA residents. Having some that are restricted by location does help foster the growth of the SEA scene. Either way, the rules should be made clear for each tournament.

[mOOnGLaDe]

he barely beat me once in a tournament..

[ROOT`iaguz]

GODDOM KOREANS TAKING ALL MY E-SPORTS DOLLARS. RAWRARGHAGHAGH.

Well, to be honest I think me and yoon aren't far off from beating King Kong. If you saw our games 2 CO's ago, I ******* HAD him game 3 if I decided to actually watch my army when it's in hostile territory other then do other stuff. I'm not sure about beating Dragon (got a BO win on his stream that was kinda fun) or Master (not sure if we've ever played).

That said, I do agree that it would suck for SEA just to be a vacation resort for Koreans. I dunno.