[Melchsee]

its how elitism comes about. masters think they're good to coach so they put down someone lower ranking than them.

thats why i left this community alone after it became bigger.

[Zanderax]

Count me in. Im free most Tuesdays and Thrusdays and with the Holis coming up it'l be late night galore.
Zanderax.255
Bronze

[SkyBreaker]

Originally Posted by Melchsee

its how elitism comes about. masters think they're good to coach so they put down someone lower ranking than them.

thats why i left this community alone after it became bigger.

To be completely honest, none of the previous posts contained any elitism. The general gist of it was a concern that bad-habits and wrong-methods would be taught from someone below high diamond/master's league acting as a coach; which I can completely agree with.

However that is just my opinion, but since I first begun playing SCII I always have valued the advice of the higher league players simply put because they're in a higher league. Does that mean I don't listen to below-Master's players? Not at all, I take everything into account however I just know the advice given from the higher-tier players is tried, tested and true advice based on the tip-top end of SCII game-play as opposed to certain scenarios that can occur in the plat-gold level of game-play which seem "normal" to the player(s) in that league.

That's not to say I don't have faith in Meatex's coaching abilities, I wish him all the luck in the world with his coaching endeavors, however I just wanted to re-iterate the points made from some of the previous posters and point out how in-fact they are actually quite far from anything possibly classed as elitist.

[ProAnnn]

Whatever skybreaker said is true. Platinium players are at platinium level because of some bad habits or some unrefined builds that are weak to certain timings. As a zerg, these are pretty important things (unlike protoss where u can 4 gate to master which i would recommend a plat player can teach no problem). Whatever benji/del have said are totally true and not elitism. If you want to coach lower-level players, ensure you yourself is improving first! If you are a previous 'silver' league player and recently promoted to gold for example, ask yourself what have you changed in your playstyle to ensure this promotion and share with the lower leagues players. It doesnt means a plat player cant coach. It just means that a player that cant improve himself cannot improve others in my opinion.

[Meatex]

That would be true ProAnnn if we all had all the time in the world to devote to practice
A player could be in platnium because he never played an RTS before
A player could have been beating gold players for some time before promotion
A player might be being held back by his multitasking abilities because he is used to playing RPG games or is just maybe slow ^^
I myself can't think of any bad habbits that would be keeping me in platinum that I would be passing on as despite what those of you who think so high of yourself say - I'm not a retard at sc2 because I am in platinum currently. I know my weaknesses and am of course trying to get better. I spend as much time training with masters team mates as I do laddering if not more.

I like how the "pro" players here are putting me down for the exact things that I prefaced my post with. I am not looking to coach gold players handing down the definitave word on everything zerg but I am trying to help low league zergs (again I did say that in my OP)
I am well aware that I am not the best player and I'm not going to be teaching builds so much because they aren't the most important thing in bronze/silver. I am well aware that masters players may have more insight - though not if they got there just by 4 gating - but doesn't mean i don't know what I am talking about.
I am trying to share the small revelations that got me out of my leagues but likewise i'm not telling anybody rarrrr 7RR will always win or is always bad or whatever.
And yes there isn't obvious elitism going on but its still masters level players telling me not to coach (or rather lowbie zergs not to get coaching from me) despite no one else stepping up to offer help to new players struggling. You can get coaching from masters but not everyone has the disposable income for that and I certainly see no masters players offering to help anyone for the good of the community (with youngmin gone that is)
Now you can watch VOD's once (or perhaps if with all the flak i'm getting) and either eat your words or correct me. Or you can step up yourself and offer something to the community beyond oh he's only going to teach you bad habbits, you should pay my friend for coaching.

I made this post to give something to the community - I like the SEA community though I got much better response on the BNet forums strangely enough - and to say, lead by example and encourage more people to train those below them.
Time will tell whether or not me coaching will be worthwhile and I do hope to record some sessions next week, so please wait until you see what I have to offer before dismissing me ^^

[FadeAfflatus]

Originally Posted by deL

Why would you get coaching from a platinum? Fine way to pick up bad habits imo.

Apparently someone picked up bad habits, Why would you complain about someone being nice while remaining inactive yerself?

Proann: His free to coach whoever that is willing, i'm quite sure if you got nothing constructive like del just ..well..hush?

MEAT need help with timings let me know lol I got mumble working now. Lol you can have a tourny for bsg players too if this goes well -_-

PS: if masters players dont wanna coach for free then stop whining and hijacking this thread, Its for potential sign-ups not complains. Do it on another thread, aint nothing wrong with someone being nice and helping others the last time I checked.

PS2: MEATEX HAS BIG BICEPS, DONT PISS HIM OFF LOL

[TAVoices]

I used to coach on BW for free for a while back when i had time.
But for people without much time coaching for free is not an option at all.

[[TA]LoSt]

April Fools?

[Dalvernex]

lets see if there's players who wants him to coach. If no then too bad. But there is. So it's his own problem. And those who wanna come in this thread and criticize. Do you all need coaching too? If not stop and let lower level people ask him to coach. Or maybe you yourself can coach????

[Harmonik]

I once had the opportunity to learn Wushu under a man who was on the original Beijing Wushu team. I was only there for a year and in that time rarely did we come into contact, and most of that was him putting his knee into my back to force me to stretch further. Instead the class learned from the top down. The sifu only had time to teach the 10 or so best students in the class. Who in turn taught advanced weapons to those less experienced than them. They in turn taught broadsword to the >2yr students who in turn took the time here and there to correct the moves of us noobs who were doing five stance, long fist routines and basic kicks.
The way that community worked and developed its members was amazing, needless to say everyone progressed fast and friendships made.

I tell you this story for two reasons.
1. Because you can always learn something from someone who is better than you but they cant teach you past their level. Masters don't have time to teach noobs and they have long since overcome the problems that noobs face yet intermediate people will remember.
2. Because when deL and Benji make very short dismissive comments to someone who is trying to help it does most definitely come off as being elitist. I dont think they are, but if they could make point better then you wouldn't have this huge thread of pros telling noobs they cant train themselves.

For example two things that have immensely helped me in the last weeks has been watching Benji's bootcamp week and some ZvZ training from a plat player in my clan. Those two things I feel will push me into Silver in the next two weeks and then when i plateau ill go looking for my next hit.

TL;DR I love SEA

[deL]

Wushu isn't starcraft dude. This isn't a planned community with a pyramid of education cascading down in a wonderful magical fountain of sharing and caring.

It's one guy who presumably isn't recieving training of his own and has done nothing to convince us he knows how to coach or what he is talking about. Would it be so hard for him to provide replays of himself so that either we can critique it or to see whether he got where he is by cheese or legit strats? Your wushu example was planned from what you said and it worked because there were set moves that could be passed down directly as the students above learned them - basically the master was teaching it to them but in 3rd person.

[Marc]

I'll help u out with terran/protoss players.

[Meatex]

Well its not how good you are at the game its whether you are a good teacher and in a distant second how much you know.
You really think any coach would be coaching if they could be playing. You think Federer's coach could beat him even now when he's not at his best?
I coached baduk (google it) for 3 years and paid for my uni textbooks when I was 2nd by winning tournaments.
Now i'm a school teacher, not a glamorous life of only playing starcraft for sure but I know how to teach I think. and ffs mate I already said i'm not the best player but i'm offering to help those below me as my master's level team mates help me every day
The ONLY reason that SC2 doesn't have a "pyramid of education cascading down in a wonderful magical fountain of sharing and caring" is because people like you try to do everything they can to shut down anyone who tries to help who isn't in your click.
This isn't highschool bro, grow up and either offer free coaching or gtfo mate

[deL]

The point isn't your teaching method, I am sure there are a lot of low league players who have charisma and whatnot required for engaging coaching. The point is if you can't recognise that what you are teaching them might be wrong they are going to pick up bad habits. You might have been teaching English for 20 years but never passed maths at school, and you went to teach someone mathematics then you are going to teach them something wrong most likely - someone who has even passed grade 12 maths is going to be a better tutor for that subject even if they only have the most basic teaching skills just because they have basic knowledge that you can't have.

[Meatex]

Dude, uhhh did anyone who did year 12 not do math?
And why can't someone who is not a math professor teach a beginner addition, subtraction etc?
Stop assuming i'm an idiot you damn troll - you don't know me and you sure as hell don't know how much I know. If you want to shoot this down and and be a smarmy prick good on you mate.
Go re read the OP and use your head for something other than putting people down for once
I was very upfront that I'm not masters and woopdefucking do you're one league ahead - I could say that because you haven't been in the GSL or MLG that you shouldn't coach because clearly you are not one of the best in the world and that must be because you have bad habbits that you are going to teach.

Please elaborate what bad habits am i going to teach them for example huh?
And no teaching skills is more important as I have seen guys with vastly more knowledge than me trying to teach and failing

[cruxis]

Thundertoss is a Diamond player, and he coached Destiny, a Master player.

It's not how well you play the game, it's how well you understand the game.

[nard]

Masters players are no doubt better than plats. but plats do have certain mechanics that bronze/silver might not have. Granted, plat players are not perfect, surely they have something to offer to us bronzies!

that being said, what meatex is doing is commendable! can i learns some zerg!?

[Marc]

Hey Meatex, I don't mind helping you out.

[holyforker]

hello thought i'd share something..

was looking for a game in chat tonight and someone asked if i wanted to play his friend as he was coaching his friend. so i agreed, and since his friend was in bronze i won relatively easily.

Then he asked me to play against him so that his friend can watch and learn, so i agreed even though I didn't think i would win (he's in diamond)
i asked if there was any build in particular I was supposed to do, and he said no.

So first game I tried out a build that GGNore taught me in his coaching with me, a pseudo 3 gate expo build which is really a 3 gate DT rush. He (my opponent, let's call him Mr X) didn't scout at all so when my DTs hit his base he lost and..
HE SCOLDED ME.
Saying 'why did you do that? why didn't you play standard 3 gate expo?!!' and blames me for going a wonky build when he did about 0 scouting (no Overlords, etc)

So we play again, and he stole my gas rather early (before my 1st gas even came up) so i decided to try another build that i had just learnt, some 2 gate stalker pressure into a 3gate expand. even though i totally messed up the timing (2nd gateway was up like 30 seconds before cyber core? lolol).. and I killed him with stalker zealots because he was droning up

and again he scolds me 'WHY NO STANDARD 3GATE EXPO WHY WHY'
(which i was kinda doing except with some pressure, but he stole my gas so i couldn't make alot of sentries so i decided to try other stuff)


What I wanted to say was, it seems even at diamond, some players may not be good coaches. He was drilling his friend to just counter one build (3 gate expo) without teaching him how to react to other builds. He didn't teach him to scout (zerg is a reactionary race right? that's what i read everywhere) and seemed quite narrowminded in his coaching.

I didn't include his name because my purpose is obviously not to bash anyone, but to just support those who have been saying 'coaching is not for everyone'. Need to iron out your own bad habits first! (e.g. be good like GGNore (who coached me haha im biased) !

Ok sorry if this isn't supposed to belong here i searched abit and couldn't find the original thread with deL or someone scolding someone else so i put it here.

TL: DR
Coaching is not for everyone. Don't coach if you have bad habits yourself that you haven't ironed out!

[NvJazBas]

Meatex, you Korean? since you said you coached baduk. I'm just curious.