[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by bombertaylor

1st replay : http://drop.sc/168904

I am struggling with protoss timing push with void phinix and +1 zealot. Everytime he pushes I dont have enough roach to def.Is there anyway to counter it ?.
Even I know it's coming I still cannot def it. When I face this build on ladder, how can Zerg stop this if cannot scout out?. If Zerg sack an overlord he even behind in timing.

i'm not zerg but I do a similar variation of this quite a lot.
Your main problem was scouting you should have two ovies in position to sac for some scouting info at 6-8 minutes. you would have seen the stargate for sure and hopefully the 6 extra gateways too. But even if you don't see the gateways you can guess thats its coming from his forge being chronoboosted (you should have a ling poking up to see whats up every now and then. You also saw a bunch of zealots and sentries going across the map this is quite a good indication an attack is coming. I'd also suggest having lings scout around for proxy pylons, denying these will slow down his attack quite a lot. Also make sure your bases are connected by creep so you can defend the voidray pheonix push with queens (you really shouldn't have lost that queen.
Once you saw the stargate with ur sac'd ovie at 7 minutes put down a hydra den as well so you CAN make hydras if you NEED to.
When you realized that there was a big push coming you can make a shittonne of roach hydra, make sure you use the roaches as a buffer. I also noticed your roach micro needs some work since you lose lots of roaches to zealots on creep when you should be taking hardly any damage from them unless you're off creep. Also make sure you don't get supply blocked so hard, if you see stargate play you should make some ovies preemptively because you will lose some for sure. I think that your supply block at 94 was what really cost you the game. you also didn't make any extra queens to handle the air, if you aren't gonna get hydra at least get some extra queens to deal with pheonixes and void while you micro your roaches vs the zealots.

then there was your attack right at the end, there was no real reason for this attack, you could have just double expanded and you would have been fine since you were still on about even workers. and about even army supply, sure he would be a bit ahead but at least you wouldn't have been out of the game.

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

[EyeSeeEm]

Hi guys, I'm a plat Zerg and need help vs a cheesy Toss.

ZvP - Plat v high Diamond
http://drop.sc/168965

He opens 2 gate which I scout normally, but I react terribly and end up losing my expansion (and also way behind in workers). Could someone explain what my mindset should be when I scout 2gate and what the standard response is?

I then proceed flustered and forget to scout his tech at a normal timing and get steamrolled by Void Rays (beta anyone?).

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

Bringing home the combat build ftw!

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by EyeSeeEm

Hi guys, I'm a plat Zerg and need help vs a cheesy Toss.

ZvP - Plat v high Diamond
http://drop.sc/168965

He opens 2 gate which I scout normally, but I react terribly and end up losing my expansion (and also way behind in workers). Could someone explain what my mindset should be when I scout 2gate and what the standard response is?

I then proceed flustered and forget to scout his tech at a normal timing and get steamrolled by Void Rays (beta anyone?).

not 100% sure as I play toss not zerg, but I think you should have at least tried to get your natural hatchery down at the normal time (your drone just turned around and went back home).

I don't know the proper response to this, but it's not roaches (since you have to cut so many drones to get them). I think you just have to put the hatchery down and make as many lings as possible. If you didn't take the gas geyser or make the spine crawlers, you would have had enough lings to take down the three zealots before the cannons got up (with the queen helping out)

Don't worry about the void rays, you probably would have held that off fine in a normal game, but in this game you were so far behind that no matter what he did, he would have won.


I think your mindset should be something like "he's investing a lot of resources into this attack and delaying his economy and tech by doing this. I just need to hold it off and I'll have plenty of time to drone up afterwards."

Quick Comments

	EyeSeeEm:
	mGGAequitas:

[EyeSeeEm]

Originally Posted by delete12

not 100% sure as I play toss not zerg, but I think you should have at least tried to get your natural hatchery down at the normal time (your drone just turned around and went back home).

I turned around because I saw his probe blocking the hatch. A good toss would block it until lings pop, right?

Originally Posted by delete12

I think you just have to put the hatchery down and make as many lings as possible. If you didn't take the gas geyser or make the spine crawlers, you would have had enough lings to take down the three zealots before the cannons got up (with the queen helping out)

Yeah, against the Zealot/Cannon rush, that will work. But what if he keeps pumping Zealots? Then I'm stuck on slow lings and no gas.

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by EyeSeeEm

I turned around because I saw his probe blocking the hatch. A good toss would block it until lings pop, right?


Yeah, against the Zealot/Cannon rush, that will work. But what if he keeps pumping Zealots? Then I'm stuck on slow lings and no gas.

You should always just attack the probe (micro a bit to get extra hits off if he runs around in circles). Worst case scenario, you force him to make a pylon. If you're actively microing the drone, sometimes you can get the hatch down (even if he's microing the probe). I play at a level, and I always make a pylon to block since my zerg opponents manage to get the hatchery down even while I'm microing the probe.

This is all theorycraft now, but if he kept on pumping zealots you would be fine since they have to walk across the map one at a time. Unless you let him stockpile up 7 zealots or something, you should be able to have enough to get a surround. If those two gateways were proxied, then roaches/spine might be a good idea, since you get 2 gateways and a pylon once you hold it off, and he won't have a forge to secure his expansion.

I still think mass ling is the way to go (unless he proxies the gateways). Roaches take too long to get, and hurt your economy too much. You're pretty much forced to do a counter-all-in if you get them, which doesn't work since he gets a forge behind it.

Zealots are slow. Even if you don't have enough lings to kill him, you can just attack the zealots every time they attack the hatchery, and pull back when they try to fight back. If they chase the lings, you can just run around forever. You can pump out lings faster than he can pump out zealots (especially since they have to walk across the map to your base). So as long as you buy time like this, you'll be able to save the hatchery and hold it off.

That's what I think at least, once again, all theorycraft.

Quick Comments

	EyeSeeEm:	Great explanation, thanks!
	mGGAequitas:

[EyeSeeEm]

Originally Posted by EyeSeeEm

Hi guys, I'm a plat Zerg and need help vs a cheesy Toss.

ZvP - Plat v high Diamond
http://drop.sc/168965

He opens 2 gate which I scout normally, but I react terribly and end up losing my expansion (and also way behind in workers). Could someone explain what my mindset should be when I scout 2gate and what the standard response is?

I then proceed flustered and forget to scout his tech at a normal timing and get steamrolled by Void Rays (beta anyone?).

I would really also appreciate a + opinion on the standard response to this.

Also, at what supply do I wait for lings? Do I save larvae? Any good guides, perhaps vs cheese in general?

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

vs cheese u defend and then u win?

[mGGAequitas]

I actually do that build A LOT, it's a great build from CombatEX which i rarely lose with. If you want I can show you some replays of me doing it so you see how they try to defend it.

heres a game I played doing the 'bringing home the combat' build which was casted:
http://www.twitch.tv/bard123/b/316544699 at about 3:40:00

If you want some replays just ask

Quick Comments

EyeSeeEm:

[EyeSeeEm]

Originally Posted by EyeSeeEm

vs cheese u defend and then u win?

If only it was that easy. I end up way behind in the replay, although all I did was "defend". The question is: how do you do it correctly?

Originally Posted by Aequitas

If you want some replays just ask

Thx! PM Sent, perhaps upload somewhere for anyone interested?

[mGGAequitas]

ok ill send you the links here,

I found 67 replays of me doing this (out of 104 games on that map)

i've uploaded a pack so you can see how they hold it off (note: i didn't watch these, just chose a few randomly from sc2gears, so some of them may be bad)

dl here: http://www.filedropper.com/bringinghomethecombat

if you want more just ask i got heaps

Quick Comments

EyeSeeEm:

Great help!

[EyeSeeEm]

Originally Posted by Aequitas

if you want more just ask i got heaps

More please! Also I need more where you lose :3

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

but I don't lose doing this? :p

[mGGAequitas]

http://drop.sc/170064

I did this build again to a high gm, and he completely destroyed me, the first 3 zealots did allrite for me, as it forces a lot of lings, he also made a roach warren but no roaches. once he scouted i had a lot of zealots he made a bunch of roaches and was able to stop the zealots well (maybe i should have focused down the hatch? not sure) and then he managed to get hydras in time to stop the voidrays (I WAS SO CLOSE TO KILLING THE HATCH!!) and he takes no damage and the game is over by now, although i proceed to do some crazy stupid all in but was clearly over after voidrays did nothing.

I think the main things you should take away from the replay is his scouting he manges to scout each of the attacks with enough time to prepare a defense, lings , roaches , hydras. Also you mentioned not knowing if they are gonna keep making zealots, as you can see he puts his ovie above my gates and can see exactly when i stop making them.

Quick Comments

EyeSeeEm:

Excellent advice, scouting the follow up is definitely the key!

[mGGAequitas]

If someone could give me some advice on this replay: http://drop.sc/170127 it'd would be much appreciated.

So the game starts off with him doing a cc first I feel there isn't much point getting a fast stalker since his bunker would be up so i couldn't really do much damage, instead i cut at 20 probes and make a nexus. I follow up with a 3 gate push, I don't think it went terribly well possibly a little bit in his favour, I had lost more stuff but was ahead in workers by a bit. I feel I wasn't producing and chronoboosting probes as well as I should have been, was this a reason I lost?

I see he has a third and try to take mine as well but stop when i see him moving out since I don't see me winning without a small choke, even with the choke I end up not being very cost efficient and am behind a lot of workers. I get some collosus out and take my third but he manages to not only focus down my nexus but destroy my army as well so I feel that the game had already been lost before that engagement.

Any help and advice would be appreciated, thanks

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Aequitas

If someone could give me some advice on this replay: http://drop.sc/170127 it'd would be much appreciated.

So the game starts off with him doing a cc first I feel there isn't much point getting a fast stalker since his bunker would be up so i couldn't really do much damage, instead i cut at 20 probes and make a nexus. I follow up with a 3 gate push, I don't think it went terribly well possibly a little bit in his favour, I had lost more stuff but was ahead in workers by a bit. I feel I wasn't producing and chronoboosting probes as well as I should have been, was this a reason I lost?

I see he has a third and try to take mine as well but stop when i see him moving out since I don't see me winning without a small choke, even with the choke I end up not being very cost efficient and am behind a lot of workers. I get some collosus out and take my third but he manages to not only focus down my nexus but destroy my army as well so I feel that the game had already been lost before that engagement.

Any help and advice would be appreciated, thanks

With that three gate push, what was the purpose behind it? You could do it to force him to commit to defense - and not attack you - buying yourself time to get a third nexus fast. Or you be doing it for damage. If you were doing it for damage, you would want to make it an all in attack though. Your 3gate pressure was successful, it kept him back and forced him to make a couple more bunkers, but you didn't use that to your advantage. Try not to be too greedy when you do these attacks. Once you've forced him to make bunkers and pull scvs for a while, that's already damage. If you can trade evenly, then keep going. But if you're losing some units just to kill a bunker, without killing units, you've gone too far.

Vs terran you need to get some kind of edge over them. An incredibly fast third base while keeping them defensive. Double upgrades chronoboosted while they have nothing. Collosus while they don't have vikings. High templar while they don't have ghosts. In this game you didn't have any of that, and that's why he was able to just straight up kill you.

If you want to go for fast collosus as your edge, it has to be faster than that. Maybe you can get it to work with the 3gate pressure, I don't know. It's possible. But one collosus isn't going to do much when he has 4 medivacs and stim.

Something to also keep in mind is that unupgraded gateway units suck against terran once he has stim and medivacs. You need to have either way more units, better upgrades, and preferably the twilight upgrades before you can put up a fight. You can compare it to a tonne of +1 zealots against unupgraded zerglings. It's just a slaughter.


There's a lot to think about there, I'll leave it up to you. There's plenty of ways to play pvt. If you want to keep on doing the early gateway pressure, I suggest going to 4 or 5 gates and taking a third behind it, like parting. I don't have much experience with this style myself though, so you'll have to ask someone else or research if you have trouble with that.

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

thx for the thoughts :D

[Jaywalk]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Replay analysis here : http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/316047397

Summary

• Don't make a 4 gate and expand in the same time. 4 gate, try to kill and if it fails and you think you have a opportunity to expand expand after the push
• Same with the 3rd, don't make 4 more gateways, a robotic facility and twilight council and a 3rd in the same time. You found yourself unable to make units after that
• You're not making enough units from your structures. That's your major weakness today. Make units from all your structure all the time as soon as they are ready to produce. Expand and make new structures from your excess after you produced at the maximum.

i cant find my video nemo?

thanks for making this btw!!!

[Nemo]

Arghhh, for some reason Twitch.tv has deleted the video. I guess they delete the less seen videos from time to time ...

I think I will do it again then tonight. If you prefer another more recent game to be analyzed, post it in the next 7 hours. And then watch the vid in the next 3 days to avoid such problems with Twitch. I stopped to make screenshots since it take too much time to do and it is less effective than videos IMO.

Edit: Well, in fact there is a button that allow you to save forever, I should have used that. :-/

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by ToREchoFive

i cant find my video nemo?

thanks for making this btw!!!

I made it again : http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/317021719

This time it should be permanent but don't take the chance and watch it quickly !
Hope that helps.

Someone knows how to use the embeded code of Twitch.tv ?
<object bgcolor='#000000' data='http://www.twitch.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf' height='300' id='clip_embed_player_flash' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='400'><param name='movie' value='http://www.twitch.tv/widgets/archive_embed_player.swf'><param name='allowScriptAccess' value='always'><param name='allowNetworking' value='all'><param name='allowFullScreen' value='true'><param name='flashvars' value='archive_id=317021719&auto_play=false&channe l=nemoulysses&start_volume=25&hostname=www.twitch. tv&title=Replay+Analysis+for+ToREchoFive'></object><br><a href="http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses#r=-rid-&amp;s=em" class="trk" style="padding:2px 0px 4px; display:block; width: 320px; font-weight:normal; font-size:10px; text-decoration:underline; text-align:center;">Watch live video from nemoulysses on TwitchTV</a>

[iM tgun]

Oh hey, this thread exists. If zergs post their replays, I'll do my best to look at them

Quick Comments

	|Erasmus|:	I approve of this service so hard. tgun's analysis has been great every time i've listened to him. <3
	Nemo:	Thanks !!! You're a hero ! <3
	xGKingdelete:

[loki01]

Heya, I would love some feedback if you guys could. (me) V

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=787

We both start off with fast expansions. I manage to hold off the roach push, he then transitions into ling/bling/muta and I into marine/tank/medivac.

This game was the blunder of the century, alll my pushes were easily stopped and I really had no idea what I was doing. (that goes for most my TvZ)

Feel free to nitpick everything.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by loki01

Heya, I would love some feedback if you guys could. (me) V

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=787

We both start off with fast expansions. I manage to hold off the roach push, he then transitions into ling/bling/muta and I into marine/tank/medivac.

This game was the blunder of the century, alll my pushes were easily stopped and I really had no idea what I was doing. (that goes for most my TvZ)

Feel free to nitpick everything.

Replay Analysis
http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/317514983

Summary

• Hit and run the roaches and try not to stop your economy during the push. Tank with the orbital command while your marines shoot the roaches
• Make tanks sooner so to have AOE damage when pushing.
• Back your marines when seeing banelings and then target fire them with tanks. Then split your marines
• Scan to destroy creep tumors
• Make a Planetary fortress when having an exposed expand (3rd here)
• Upgrade wayyyy sooner.
• Don't make weak pushes. s are better in great number for the main push.
• If Muta make 1 or 2 thors.

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

[loki01]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Replay Analysis
http://www.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/317514983

I didn't expect something so in-depth. I really appreciate that you did this, it was alot more than I asked for.

Thanks!