[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Need help with very late game pvt. I can't seem to be able to put together enough stuff to crush the damn terran. Here are two replays of PvT's gone wrong, one is 58 mins, other is close to 50. What have I missed?

Game 1: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=465
Game 2: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=464

In game 2 I actually disconnected, but the mere fact that it lasted for so long, and I wasn't able to win is eloquent enough.

I don't think we need any indepth analysis for this one.

Game One: PvT Shakuras
It's important to remember with unorthodox games like these that the problem isn't your micro, or your macro. It's more about your decision making and scouting.

In this game, he got an economic lead in the beginning, and maintained it all game. The end result was him mining out about 5 bases, and you mining out about 3. It didn't matter that at one point you had lost 10k resources and he had lost 20k, because his economy was so far ahead.

1) Your opponent did a gasless opening. This means either 1rax expand or some kind of marine scv all in/super aggression.
4:15 game time. You notice an engineering bay with 750/850 hp at your natural. This means it's a 1rax expand. If he was going to all in you, he would want you to put down the expansion and slow down the production of your units. He would want the extra 125 minerals to maintain marine production after he pulls scvs.
Any engineering bay in your natural means it's a 1rax expand.

So from here you have to decide whether to all in him or try to catch up economically. You decide to play it from behind. Note that his third cc (hidden expo) is done before your natural is finished. So you're playing from behind this game. This guy economically cheesed you.

If a terran is hiding a quick third, it's possible to scout it by looking at his main.
-no mules at main or natural, yet orbital energy is low (tbh I never bother to do this)
-he has way too much stuff.
-he has 5 bunkers at the front of his base (it means he's really worried about an attack, either because he is hiding something crazy like 3port banshee or because he doesn't have much units. In this game, the 5 bunkers was because his production was so delayed by the super quick third.)


In this game at 10:40, he has 3 engineering bays (you should have scouted more thoroughly with the observer as you missed this), 6 rax (two in production), and a "third" CC in production. He adds an armory shortly after.

Normally when you scout you're looking for starport timings, engineering bay timings, the amount of rax, and whether a 3rd CC is on the way. Since you're so focused on that, it's not easy to realise that he has more things than he should have. But hopefully after this you'll be able to identify that terran's hiding a third somewhere judging from the amount of buildings (the 3 engineering bays was just ridiculous).

So after you realise he's hiding a third, you can look around at the likely locations for a hidden expansion, and if you manage to find and kill all of the scvs, you'll be miles ahead.


2) Your third was too late. It's generally harder to take thirds when going for collosus off two base, but you still have to try and get it. 2-3 collosus with thermal lance should be enough to secure the closer base on shakuras, with good forcefields. Also, unless you're going for a two base all in, try to continue probe production. It's okay to over saturate your natural (sometimes I have like 40 probes at my natural) as long as you take a third base and transfer those probes to saturate it immediately.

So yeah. Your opponent had his fourth before your third. Also, after the 14 minute mark, he was generally ahead by 20-30 SCVs for the whole game. He ends up sniping your third at the 18 minute mark, as well. It's almost impossible to catch up up to his economic lead.

If he ends up with 3 planetary fortresses splitting the map in half, it's almost impossible to beat. You can try drops or something like that, but most of the time you won't be able to break it.


So in summary, in this game you did a two base play transitioning into a late third, while he took a pretty fast fourth and secured his half of the map. You'll either have to attack before his 4 base macro kicks in, or take faster expansions yourself.

Just a few things in general, I suggest getting a second obs, and using prioritising feedback over storm (unless you have a really good opportunity to land blanket storms). Also, remake probes when you lose them. When you lost all of those probes to the nukes, you had 7k minerals to spare. Might as well spend 1k of those minerals to remake 20 probes.

I think there was one point in the game where you could have won, 32:40 game time, if you go back to the replay. You're about 40 supply ahead, with a couple of collosus and 9 templar (most of the time you'll only need 4-5 templar, so use the extra templar for archons). But then you attack into his planetary wall and lose your entire army when his reinforcements arrived.

If you just walked past the wall, you could have sniped two of his mining expansions, plus three orbitals. That might cost you your army, but you had enough of a bank to remake an army of zealots and templar.
it's usually a bad idea to attack into planetaries


That's pretty much all I have to say, sorry if there are any grammar issues, I haven't edited it. I'll get to game 2 tomorrow.


P.S. Your late game PvT is fine, it's actually pretty good. This game was just a bit gimmicky because he economically cheesed you.
I suggest making a second robo, or even a third if you build up a huge bank of resources, so you can remax on the tech that terran doesn't have (if he overmakes vikings you can stop collosus and go for templar archons etc, and if he overmakes ghosts you can go for double collosus production)

P.P.S. where's the triple stargate carriers, I am disappoint

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Awe-some !
	ToRPandarine:	learned tht splitting the map in half with pf is good :P
	Next_rim:	thank you comrade