[TADivinity]

Im sure no one enjoys lining up with a Random player.
Oftentimes, you are in for a cheese.
Other times, it plays out standard. But to what degree (do you think) is it fair that you do not know the other players race until you scout them - especially when you have different build orders for each specific race?

Personally I have fairly distinct build orders for all 3 races. I have a standard against Random too, however I really don't like the fact that I am forced to play that way, simply because I don't know my oppositions race.

Obviously the strong Random players have learnt all 6 individual Match Ups to some degree of depth. Kudos to them...But it is their choice.

Does this justify them having an automatic advantage, right at the start of the game? Do you disagree with me and think that they dont actually have an advantage at all?

I will be very surprised if people don't play a specific way against a Random player until they scout them out. Is it fair that you must do this, whilst the other play can freely open with intel on what the MU is?

Or do you think this advantage is not very great - and simply adds another element to the game?

I'm interested in peoples views on this!

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	nice thread
	Mayo:

[Zanderax]

I think at all levels of play, from bronze to code S GSL learning one race is better than learning all three.

[Satu]

Its entirely fair imo.

They need to play 3 races to only have a slight advantage earlygame, seems like more pressure is on them. You should play on korea though, random players there play straight up macro games, which is a lot scarier than poorly executed allins.

[FaDeBadger]

Any advantage they have initially is far outweighed by the disadvantage they have by having to learn so many different matchups.

If they play random to cheese then they are just hopeless anyway. It doesn't take that long to scout them out on most maps so my builds don't differ too much. I head towards 3 gates and if I haven't scouted him by then, then I'm doing it wrong.

[mOOnGLaDe]

i think its fair to not know the random players race because the only advantage they get to playing random is a few minutes of unknown, where as they have to know how to play all races

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	agreed!
	stalking you:	Very True :)

[Nemo]

All what is said are valid arguments. At my low level I would add that one could be bored to be obliged to learn all the precise timing and specific cheese that could occur in specific MU. Playing random and not telling the spawn race force the opponent to open with a good overall build (14/14; 3 gate robo or expand ; rax-gas) that allow you to be "more or less" in comparable position whatever happens.

It's like in chess learning all the openings could be very tedious when one is more interested in the middle game.

Of course if the random player only play random to farm portrait or victories and cheese / All-In all his way to make them, that's irrelevant as they are only interested by icons or portraits. They won't tell their race whatever fair or unfair you could consider it.

[iVnStinger]

Originally Posted by mOOnGLaDe

i think its fair to not know the random players race because the only advantage they get to playing random is a few minutes of unknown, where as they have to know how to play all races

So true. Heck even Nirvana agreed and he did win WCG with Random.

[TABjornbrandr]

I think this is where the power of homogenised builds comes into play; I know that players like Dimaga love to open with a macro-heavy style no matter who they're playing.
Obviously, 15 hatching vs a random 'Toss who's going FFE is going to be a pain in the arse, but I suppose that in the end, the whole point of playing random is to get the initial advantage by essentially forcing the opponent to play in a more defensive (depending on the type of opponent, too) manner. Having such a large initial knowledge requirement certainly doesn't help a random player.
I suppose with regards to cheese, sure it's worse if you have to respond in a specific manner to x cheese as opposed to y cheese vs z race, but overall, their uncertainty with regards to preparing specific gameplans pretty much evens it out.

[TAXanT]

I just send out a scout right away and hope I scout them first so I can then decide what build to go quickly

[TASlowHands]

Originally Posted by XanT

I just send out a scout right away and hope I scout them first so I can then decide what build to go quickly

and lets face it, to see what kind of all in you need to D up for

[ToRMaverick]

I think the masses have spoken.

I too believe they should have the slight advantage based on the additional work required to learn the 3 races. If this wasnt the case "random" really ceases to exist. The person choosing random would be the only one disadvantaged if the op. knew up front what race you were... that is unless they knew all 3 races equally which Im betting they dont.

Scouting is still as important whether you know the race or not as if you didnt scout you would now if you needed to defend all ins, cheese or FE. etc regardless of the race.

I am only a Silver Toss but I also have specific builds per race... especially PvZ due to the potential 6 pool. In general my random games start off with a PvZ style build which is modified depending on the scouting info. (Silver = Cheese)

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Obviously the strong Random players have learnt all 6 individual Match Ups to some degree of depth. Kudos to them...But it is their choice.

We have to learn 9 match-ups!!! I personally think it's fair, because I struggle to learn any build orders, too many match ups. As people have stated, it's only a couple of minutes of information you normally wouldn't have.

Also, think about the opposite situation. You get told what they are instead of they are . All of a sudden you don't know they're and you don't have the knowledge that they are likely to cheese. Or at least that's people's general perception of .

[MazEi]

I would just send a slightly earlier scout to. But like others who have replied here, I too feel that the advantage is only for the first few minutes. After that I think the advantage swings back to you as you have played the one specific race you play for much more thus you know how to play the macro game better compared to someone who has to basically work 3 times as hard to achieve the same ability as the game goes on.

[krycek]

lol playing random is no advantage overall, they may have a certain power of uncertainty but this is only fleeting, i think others have said it all

[ETL.Branno]

the only time it really annoys me is ZvZ because there has been quite a few times where if i had known he was zerg i would have won early on due to him making mistakes and also having to drone scout when he doesn't have to but i also feel like there are other ways that they get a big early game advantage in ZvZ just by me not knowing their race. not sure if other people feel the same about the other mirror matches.

[MeatSnack]

I used to play as random and i enjoyed the small advantage of leaving your opponent in the dark but as i played more i realized that you cant expect your opponent too play what is considered standard in that match up since they have to prepare for any race.

This means you have to adjust your play to their adjusted opening which in my experience has led to some pretty wack games and some weird situations.

Also i think playing random is really stupid if u plan on cheesing since you basically force them to scout you early and they will see what you are up too right away.

[NvPinder]

To all the zerg players saying its fine, explain how protoss against random on tal'darim alter is even remotely fair...

If you don't wall, you're in a huge disadvantageous position against MANY zerg openers, not just cheeses, economic but still early speedling openings will ****. your. shit. up... Let alone the fact that forge FE is FARRRR preferred by every protoss i know on tal'darim, 1 gate/3 gate pressure-FE is just incredibly weak because of the length and the open areas you have to pass through on the way to the zergs base.

IF you wall, you're at a pretty big disadvantage in both the other matchups, especially PvP where it's mostly 4 gate vs 4 gate, so you CANT be defensive because you have your vulnerable structures at your choke and if you ever get stuck behind it it's over. And its similar against terran, if they do some sort of early 2 rax or even worse a early rax all-in, you've 100% lost your core and 1 gate which is pretty much insta-loss.

Oh, there's also the fantastic part where if you scout them last (off a pylon scout), you have to blind 4-gate to have a chance pvp, utterly crippling you pvz, or you can choose to keep building probes and not save chrono, in which case you've insta-lost pvp.

It's a pretty ******* similar situation on other maps, the one advantage is that most of them are smaller so 1 or 3 gate FE vs zerg is much better, and the ramp stops the opponent from picking off your buildings quiiiite as easily. I'd probably be more pissed about how gay PvR is on other maps, but its just so blatently broken on tal'darim that it blinds me from seeing how bad it actually is on other maps.

edit: i dono, at the end of the day choosing random, to me, should be that you just want to play any of the races, whether its because you're a casual player or a pro player looking to have some fun, it shouldn't be something people choose in order to get some stupid inherent advantage, which is much bigger than some of you are making it out to be -.-;;

Quick Comments

eCKo`Tazerenix:

So true

[ROOT`iaguz]

I'm a fan of idra's stance on Random.

"Playing random doesn't make you better because you have to learn 9 matchups, it's about learning 9 gay builds because you unfairly disadvantage your opponent".

My personal view is that I discard almost anything from any game vs a random player. They don't care about losing so they'll just play like spastics and that's no good when I'm testing builds!

Quick Comments

stalking you:

[NvPinder]

Oh i almost forgot, i made a random race flowchat back in beta: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=125488

EDIT: fun fact: when i made that post, platinum was the highest ladder division, they introduced diamond later in beta, and didnt introduce masters till a while after release i think?

[Highlander]

That TL forum post is so true and continues to hold true today. Hilarious.

As a random player (albeit Silver), learning all the match ups is a massive difference. Let alone the nuances of each map. FAR greater than the lack of knowledge on any non-Tal Darim ladder map.

I do really agree with Money on Tal Darim specifically, I consider the random advantage quite strong there. Random players should veto smaller maps come to think of it.

Almost offtopic, I do feel like sharing one thing though: The reason I love playing random is the same reason I don't veto maps, I love SC2 and want to experience everything I can with the play time I have. I love watching pro replays and know I'll never get to their level so I don't worry quite so much about perfecting one race of play. Playing random means I can enjoy a ZvZ as much as a ZvP or ZvT and I feel that kicks arse.

[aLtShortizz]

IMO they deserve the starting advantage. Although as Zerg, i usually just open a normal 14g14p against random and decide what to do when i know what im playing against. Most times though, the random player seems to scout me first rather than the other way round lol. I kinda agree with JP that if you scout a random player last, u`re in for alot of trouble as protoss. But i suppose on Maps like TDA, u can send out 2 probes(2nd one after gate)?

[EveVendetta]

Shortizzz, but you scouting on 9 AND sending an extra scout will put you significantly behind compared to him scouting on 12.

Significantly only because 4 gate will always win in a PvP on Taldarim, and you'll have like 1 zealot or stalker less which means the world.

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by nGenVendetta

Shortizzz, but you scouting on 9 AND sending an extra scout will put you significantly behind compared to him scouting on 12.

Significantly only because 4 gate will always win in a PvP on Taldarim, and you'll have like 1 zealot or stalker less which means the world.

Exactly, my point was the disadvantage u would have is that you have to send out 2 scouting probes. But im pretty sure most ppl would still do it. Its just one of those things that sets you back but you just gotta do it.

[sRFullstop]

I think it's fair that a Random gets that advantage. As people above said the advantage lasts only until he gets scouted, and that is within the first minute or two of the game. I think general builds are best against Random players, so for Zerg maybe a 14g/14p. Their skill level will take a long time to improve because of the 9 matchups thing, but if their skill level improves to the point where they play all matchups at their league level, they will be very hard to stop because their mechanics for each race will be good and they will have that advantage early game.

If the opponent knew a Random's race before scouting then the sole purpose of Random would be to practice all races.

[Zealo]

of course R is unfairly OP (they can make ghosts, marines, colossus AND infestors!), that's why the GSL is pretty much all R players.

[Millionaire]

As a random player myself who refuses to choose a race despite increasing competitions on ladder, I get annoyed when my opponents on ladder ask me what is my race because by being a random player,the early game advantage is what we were fighting for.
In my opinion,I think random players are weak in mirror matchups and are equally as strong when they are playing imbalanced matchups because we random players understand the strengths and weaknesses of each race as we play all races equally. Despite that, my favourite is still Protoss.

Edit : The wonderful part about playing random ...just to give some examples.
If I encounter a Protoss opponent, I will be very sure that he will never FFE.
If I encounter a Terran opponent, I will be very sure that he will never do any 2 rax cheeses before scouting me and he will always open rax into refinery.
If I encounter a Zerg opponent, I will be quite sure that he will open speedling expand.

[EscapisT]

Originally Posted by Millionaire

As a random player myself who refuses to choose a race despite increasing competitions on ladder, I get annoyed when my opponents on ladder ask me what is my race because by being a random player,the early game advantage is what we were fighting for.
In my opinion,I think random players are weak in mirror matchups and are equally as strong when they are playing imbalanced matchups because we random players understand the strengths and weaknesses of each race as we play all races equally. Despite that, my favourite is still Protoss.

Edit : The wonderful part about playing random ...just to give some examples.
If I encounter a Protoss opponent, I will be very sure that he will never FFE.
If I encounter a Terran opponent, I will be very sure that he will never do any 2 rax cheeses before scouting me and he will always open rax into refinery.
If I encounter a Zerg opponent, I will be quite sure that he will open speedling expand.

Sorry for derailing, but..
HARROW MILL I THOUGHT U GOT KIDNAPPED BY ALIENS

Back to the topic, most of the discussion has been revolving around ladder play. Another aspect will be on tournament play, using random or race picking are sometimes disallowed depending on the tournament.

I'm not familiar with major tournaments rules on this, the only random player I know in the GSL is

+ Show +

who played as Terran and Random for many months in 2011 before changing back to Protoss in the GSL October preliminaries.

+ [source] +

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuineaPig

I'm discerning a pattern here, Randoms end up as Protoss, which means?
Anyone familiar with top players or major tournaments regarding ?

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by EscapisT

Anyone familiar with top players or major tournaments regarding ?

TLO did for a bit before he chose Terran didn't he?

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by EscapisT

Back to the topic, most of the discussion has been revolving around ladder play. Another aspect will be on tournament play, using random or race picking are sometimes disallowed depending on the tournament.

afaik no tournament has ever banned randoms. i don't know of (m)any major tournaments that ban race picking (PTSL did now i think about it)

i think if both players play perfectly the random has a slight advantage due to more information earlier. the fact that no randoms dominate (yet?) shows no one is close to perfect play yet

[crAzerk]

^
TLO played Random for quite bit before going to Terran if I'm not mistaken.

EDIT: Oh man divinity beat me to this post by a minute lol.

[Eddie]

I really admire players who can play random at a high level!

I think it's fair that Random gets that early game 'advantage'.

However i echo Pinders points that it's a pain as protoss, especially on Tal D
I always have to play the random as if he's Zerg until i scout otherwise...

[Highlander]

TLO went Random, to Terran, to Zerg, to Terran IIRC.

But yeah, Randoms fail at pro level. Biggest OP advantage is being 1/3 Terran.

[Zealo]

have any tournaments had a problem with morrow race picking?

[zeffrin]

Might be a bit late on this but I love randoms on the ladder... random means yeah early probe, but turtle up a bit at first and get ready to take them to macro game

[SuperHero]

The players i come across who cheese the most on ladder are usually random players.
But i dont think it gives an unfair advantage, you find out what race your opponent is within the first few minutes anyway, although this can disadvantage some playstyles where a fast expo is almost essential.

Regardless you should have a build that you use against a random player that is safe enough regardless of what race they spawn as.

[ETL.Branno]

little bit off topic but one time i verse a random player that told me he was zerg, i cautiously believed him and did my ZvZ build but scouted him anyway just in case and he turned out to be protoss. i ended up winning the game anyway with him calling zerg OP along with some other things and now ill never believe a random player again.

[Highlander]

Originally Posted by branno

little bit off topic but one time i verse a random player that told me he was zerg, i cautiously believed him and did my ZvZ build but scouted him anyway just in case and he turned out to be protoss. i ended up winning the game anyway with him calling zerg OP along with some other things and now ill never believe a random player again.

haha

I always tell the truth when asked. It doesn't matter. They never believe me anyways. :P

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by Highlander

haha

I always tell the truth when asked. It doesn't matter. They never believe me anyways. :P

I tell them .

Quick Comments

Zealo:

i used to do that. now i tell them korean ;)

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by SuperHero

The players i come across who cheese the most on ladder are usually random players.
But i dont think it gives an unfair advantage, you find out what race your opponent is within the first few minutes anyway, although this can disadvantage some playstyles where a fast expo is almost essential.

Regardless you should have a build that you use against a random player that is safe enough regardless of what race they spawn as.

I just hate playing TvP agains randoms. I hate dealing with void ray all-ins when you are forced to wall off because you don't know the race. And every single random that gets protoss on ladder seems to blindly proxy a stargate somewhere on the map.

[SuperHero]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

I just hate playing TvP agains randoms. I hate dealing with void ray all-ins when you are forced to wall off because you don't know the race. And every single random that gets protoss on ladder seems to blindly proxy a stargate somewhere on the map.

Yeah that does suck but if you get a scout into their base (usually not that hard if you scout early) and see double gas, or only 1 gate and a cybercore and nothing else being built, or chronoboost being saved up for ages then you can safely assume there is something fishy going on and send out 2 scv's all over the map.

plus, the fact that they are random doesnt change the fact that a void ray all in is lame as hell and i hate them too.

[inFeZa]

It's Totally fair, they're at a disadvantage for playing random, just scout a bit earlier.

[FaDeBadger]

I always tell them what race I am if they ask too. Few believe me. I use being random to cheese, but I economic cheese :P

[Bloodmyst]

Going random is fine. Just reveal what race they are once the loading screen comes up.

I think it's really lame to pick the random race, speaking for the majority here... not all of them. I can't remember the last time I played a random who didn't try to cheese me or 1 base me tbh.

Still yet to come accross a random player who wants to go into "macro mode."

[nard]

Opponent: what race?
Me: random
Opponent: asshole

[PiG]

I hate playing them but love playing as them because exactly what Iaguz said, when you play random you just don't care about losing.

[Mayo]

To be honest, if they play random it's 'their fault'.

It's frustrating not knowing their race.

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Mayo, are you angry at all of us players?

Hehe, it's fun when they ask what race you're playing.

The trick with playing against a Random is to scout early and then counter. And remember, if they're playing Random, their timings are generally gonna be not as crisp as a dedicated , or . You know the ins and outs of your race, the player doesn't.

[TAEdgE]

Playing random of course has it's annoying mental advantages that the other player will be affected by.

If you are a random player, technically the only advantage you have gameplay wise is the fact that for 3-5 minutes of the game, the opponent won't know what race you are and will have to do builds that are either:

A - Bad versus 1 or 2 races, good versus 1 or 2 races
or
B - Average vs every race

Now, how does this work for each race?

Well, the race that is best off vs random is my own race, zerg. Zerg has 2 builds that are effective - speedling expand and hatch first. The latter is obviously likely to be LESS effective because a random player is more likely to open 6 pool, 2 rax or cannon rush/proxy 2 gate, and it is not worth the risk to try it. I however have tried hatch first every game vs random i've had for the last 10 games, and i've won all 10. Hatch first can beat 6 pool, and it can beat a 2 rax (which by the way came only once each..)

The race that is ok is Terran. Terran is very flexible, the marine is ever-strong, and the add-on mechanic allows terran to adjust as needed. However, the opening is dictated a lot by building positioning since terran survives so much with so little (repair, wall in) and a player may only wall-off against zerg, but not against terran or protoss, and may be prone to things they aren't used to dealing with (3gate void ray - likely from a random; 1 base stupid tank push - likely from a random player) and sometimes in games this is enough to throw someone off. I think terran is much better now though, since 2 rax is not as common vs zerg, so terran can ALWAYS open rax/gas first. The thing is terrans may do gas less expands, but are forced into unorthodox builds or even just 1/1/1, which they may find a bit gimmicky vs an already gimmicky player (random players prone to this of course.)

Then finally, protoss is the race that is FUCKED versus random. It's horrible for protoss to deal with random. Protoss NEED to wall in versus zerg, and even then, they would rather forge expand on a lot of maps rather than 1 or 3 gate expand. So protoss has to weigh up whether to wall in or not, so playing on a map like taldarim is absolute hell. PvP is already hard, but when you don't know there race, your chrono usage is already affecting you in PvP. Hard cheese builds also always catch protoss off guard. Protoss has ways to deal with each races cheese - proxy 2 gate, add your own gate or be HuK. 6 pool - wall of, delay for cannon in some way, add 2nd gate etc etc. 2 rax - use fast chrono'd stalkers to kite marines. When a player is random, a protoss cannot optimize his build do deal with all 3 possibilies, AND also the possibility of a macro game.


So, what mental advantages are there for both sides?

Random players have:
- The element of surprised (extra few minutes to prepare)
- The expectation to cheese (making the other player do a build or add defence he's not comfortable with)
- The element of not caring (most random players play because they just like to have fun and play all races, meaning they probably don't use cookie cutter build orders, so you can't use defensive timings you normally would)


Non random players however, have some mental advantages

Non-Random:
- Random players expect you to be scared, and may simply play a more standard opening since they may be ahead anyway, so you could pull a greedy hatch first as zerg for example. If you speedling expand as zerg vs random, you are fine vs protoss, you are fine vs zerg (if you know baneling timings), and the only race that it isn't optimal is terran, but 14/14 deals with the one main cheese threat - 2 rax - extremely well. If the terran opens reactor hellion - you have speed, and you have more experience in the actual matchup, so any tiny advantages he gets can be nullified by your superior macro player. Reactor hellion into cheeses though is difficult)
- Experience. Experience (which i touched on above) is invaluable. You will understand the matchup more than them, and will have the understanding of how to respond to what you see. Sure, what he has may be unorthodox, but you can give up that extra bit of economy to account for any seemingly stupid possibility.
- Peace of mind. Random players are barely ever amazing players, so you can know that if you make the right decisions, you can win. This however affects terran and zerg more, i believe random vs protoss on a lot of maps is pretty damn imbalanced.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	ToRPandarine:	like a boss
	Nemo:	Excellent insight
	zeffrin:

[simon]

i always ask nicely at the beginning of the game for
their race most reply back with out fibbing

Quick Comments

ToRPandarine:

good manners ftw! :D

[Mayo]

Originally Posted by simon

i always ask nicely at the beginning of the game for
their race most reply back with out fibbing

I asked a guy for his race once and he said Japanese so I asked again and he said he was Zerg.
I found out he was Protoss and then smashed him into the ground.

feelsgoodman.jpg

[CCJester]

I love playing Random, but not for the possible early advantage, and i very rarely cheese. I do it because I love this game, (as cheesy as that may sound) and i want to experience all that it has to offer. I think rolling up against a random player has its perks and its challenges, just as it will for them, so knowing their race from the start seems kind of pointless.

Opponent - What race are you?
Me - Well i'll give you a hint, i'm either human or alien.
Opp - ...

Quick Comments

	TCPNishy:
	Zealo:	:)

[Zealo]

people ask for my race about 1/4 of the time. i tell them korean and they usually get so scared they play bad and lose*

(everything after the word korean may require evidence that does not exist)

[ZergGirl]

Random doesn't bother me, mostly because I play Zerg and just 15 hatch anyway.

Poor Protoss D;

[aLtNinja]

It is incredibly random! i don't think it's unfair to play against them in almost all situations but when they really abuse the fact that they are random and you don't know them so you almost have to pool first it can be (builds like gas before rax reactor hellion/banshee come to mind).

[Silver Pharaoh]

If toss hates to fight random on Taldarim because they fear they will be fighting zerg and didn't wall off or fighting toss or terran but walled off, then just veto the map.

Quick Comments

iM yang:

don't offer your opinion if you don't have a clue

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by Silver Pharaoh

If toss hates to fight random on Taldarim because they fear they will be fighting zerg and didn't wall off or fighting toss or terran but walled off, then just veto the map.

Sorry, but they shouldnt have to Veto a map because of a minimal amount of Random players. That is a blatant disadvantage that Protoss suffer against Random which T and Z dont have (Nearly so severely anyway)

[Zealo]

i'd say ZvR(Z) is much more of a disadvantage

P on tal darim can always just 4 gate which is effective vs any race on that map. or they can play a safe macro game. or they can veto the map. or they can play random if they think it's OP and when 80% of GMs are random then blizzard with nerf random

[iM yang]

Originally Posted by Zealo

i'd say ZvR(Z) is much more of a disadvantage

P on tal darim can always just 4 gate which is effective vs any race on that map. or they can play a safe macro game. or they can veto the map. or they can play random if they think it's OP and when 80% of GMs are random then blizzard with nerf random

... the ****

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.yang

... the ****

Hahaha, I was waiting for someone Protoss to comment on that

[FaDeBadger]

Why would a P 4 gate against anyone other than another P on that map? It is far from an effective strategy against any competent player.

[Shieldz]

i think its fair because its kinda pointless choosing random if it shows the race.

[iM yang]

I'd be sure you were trolling if you were anyone but yourself zealo.. it puzzles me some of your thoughts

[Zealo]

why do you hate all my strategies yang?

it's effective it PvT and PvZ because they never expect it maybe? the no ramp thing applies to terran defending just as much as P i thought?

seems to work for me the few times i've tried it vs randoms when i spawn P on that map...

Quick Comments

NvPinder:

.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by Zealo

why do you hate all my strategies yang?

it's effective it PvT and PvZ because they never expect it maybe? the no ramp thing applies to terran defending just as much as P i thought?

seems to work for me the few times i've tried it vs randoms when i spawn P on that map...

A good four gate requires a very specific and VERY readable opener. The random players you're playing that are losing to it are fairly bad or really trying to get their meta-game on and failing miserably.

I really really hate using the "pros" as a reason to or to not do something, but there's a very good reason you haven't seen any pro-level protoss 1-gas 4gating zerg or terran (with the exclusion of if they've gone 15cc or something) in the last 6+ months... almost all gateway-heavy timing attacks off 1-base nowadays revolve around trying to deceive your opponent into thinking you're expanding via either nexus canceling or positioning your units such that they cant re-scout the nat after their worker scout.

[FaDeBadger]

It's not effective at all if they scout it coming, which seeing as how you would be random they will be doing earlier. Not to mention the fact that 90% of people expect some sort of cheese from a random, and most people consider 4 gate a cheese.

[Zepph]

Yeah, I feel that for zerg it's pretty much sweet because half the time I don't scout til I have lings anyway (yayy overlords ^.^) and always FE. Terran is in the middle because they have so many openers, many of which are quite flexible and allow you to transition smoothly into what you wanted to do in the first place. I think toss definitely have it the hardest against random as stated in Pinder's post. Perhaps you have to rely on your superior knowledge on a matchup/crisper timings to win and in that way I think they do have an advantage.

On the flipside, if you disregard cheese I don't feel like it's a huge advantage because I highly doubt that they are going to be executing each build for each race and matchup perfectly (or close to perfect). Perhaps they will be a little ahead, say, if they got a much earlier expansion that you couldn't punish. But this shouldn't be game-ending in anyway. You can possibly try throwing them a curve ball and doing a weird build or uncommon strat yourself to play off their disadvantage of having to know all 9 match ups as there's no way they can know how to effectively with every situation.

If you lose to a random player only because you didn't know what race they were at the beginning it's up to you not to take too much from it. It's not like you're playing random players every second match (or at least I hope not o_O) and in a lot of tournaments they make you choose a single race anyway.

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by Zepph

It's not like you're playing random players every second match (or at least I hope not o_O) and in a lot of tournaments they make you choose a single race anyway.

Zepph, there are four races in SC2. , , and . I'd be pretty pissed if I rocked up to a tourney and they discriminated against my race.

[Digby]

Random is fair, with certain exceptions as pointed out by others, howver it adds a new dimension to the game, being forced to play a certain way in XvR is the same as playing any other match up, you're forced to play differently every time. WTF LARVA??? I was awesome Zealot before now I'm larva

[Zepph]

Originally Posted by Bugalugs McScruffin

Zepph, there are four races in SC2. , , and . I'd be pretty pissed if I rocked up to a tourney and they discriminated against my race.

Haha yeah, true ^.^ But sometimes they gotta be a little racist to keep it.."fair" I suppose. At least most will allow you (from what I've seen) to choose your race each match. They just don't want you to enter the game as Random to eliminate the QQ.

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by Bugalugs McScruffin

Zepph, there are four races in SC2. , , and . I'd be pretty pissed if I rocked up to a tourney and they discriminated against my race.

I didnt know Random was a race? What units do they have?
I guess sc2 is moving towards the wc3 four race thing?

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

I didnt know Random was a race? What units do they have?
I guess sc2 is moving towards the wc3 four race thing?

What are you talking about Warcraft 3 had 5 races?

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

I didnt know Random was a race? What units do they have?

marines, infestors colossus and ghost. so imba.

just versed a random called light who proxy 2gated me, then said gg, then tried to tech to DTs lol

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Weak.

Choosing your race each match is not Random, it is choosing your race. Random is random!!! Grrr. Anyways.

[stalking you]

i think that Random Is a little bit gay because u dont kno whats coming after you, but i play terran so i can just do the same build and transition out of it depending on his race like i always do lmao

[breadfan]

I think the advantages and disadvantages vary at different levels of play. Especially playing up through the low levels, I found that generally a random player is going to be a little more skilled in macro/micro than you because they have that disadvantage of familiarity with each of the races. In saying that, there areups and downs I guess.. At certain levels, I noticed that was true, and as I improved I "caught up" on those aspects of play

[darkphoenix22]

playing as toss vs a random is annoying, u kinda have to start building a wall but still have to scout super early x.x annoying as @#$%

[DeekZ]

I find it pretty annoying versing random, my builds vary per race obviously, either I blindly go one build or I scout super early? The worst is when you want to no gas expand. I dunno, not a super big deal I guess, just kinda annoying.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by DeekZ

I find it pretty annoying versing random, my builds vary per race obviously, either I blindly go one build or I scout super early? The worst is when you want to no gas expand. I dunno, not a super big deal I guess, just kinda annoying.

you have a build you do vs random, it's not rocket science

[Dhal]

I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, playing against a Random is a small disadvantage, while they have a small disadvantage in the sense that they must learn all three races.

However, I don't think its that simple.

A Random player can overcome his disadvantage of playing all three races by practising a shitload. If he is dedicated enough, he can overcome all disadvantage.

Those playing against Random have no such luck - you ALWAYS have the disadvantage of not knowing exactly how best to open, and no amount of practise can overcome that.