[AtlasMeCH]

I think that two changes to maps that when put together would make a HUGE difference for zerg with out changing anything of the races would be the following....

1. Place 1 gas mine up and somewhat near the ramp.

2. Increase the amount of mineral patches from 8 to 9-10.

The two of these things when put together would probably entirely fix any problems with zerg all together, although it doesn't seem like it. Let me explain...


First of all, the purpose of making two queens is not just to get a creep tumor out on the field... it's for production purposes as well, being able to macro in to making another hatchery (in base) with out having to worry about losing it because you have two queens.

But these queens can only truly protect this hatchery if it is "In base"

The problem is that 2 hatches and 2 queens can not produce an economic out put when doing a mixture of ling muta, or ling roach efficiently...

It is a little overkill on larvae, and you won't be able to spend all your larvae...

This is one reason why things are a bit off for zerg...

The other reason is that because there isn't a gas extractor up and near the ramp... the secondary hatchery that is in base cannot mine gas...

If it could, zerg's air would be 33% more powerful in that you would be able to make more muta when you go muta...

I actually think that these two changes when put together would have a cooperative effect and be just the thing that zerg needs for balance...

At least this is something to change first before changing anything in design and then see the effect that this would have on league competition.

Perhaps more so for team match ups as opposed to 1v1.

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	ToR.Arnor:	Please stop trolling, I beg you
	Zealo:	lol
	Zanderax:	No one like balance discussions

[Meatex]

1. Place 1 gas mine up and somewhat near the ramp.

2. Increase the amount of mineral patches from 8 to 9-10.

stopped reading here cause you still haven't learnt.
Try to learn to play better instead of QQing here

[Aean(:]

why dont you just leave the balancing part up to blizzard k

[AtlasMeCH]

Don't you guys see that these are the 2 factors that when put together that is ruining it for zerg? More particularly in team games?

Gas mines don't yield as much gas as they used to in brood war, it's not like 2 gases are being put near the ramp for zerg, just 1.


And you see blizzard introduce these maps that have a back expansion so that your ally can wall for you while you fast expand...

The problem is that this is not special for zerg, it works for t and p as well...

I believe what they really should have done is keep the old maps and just placed 1 gas up and near the ramp, and added 1-2 more mineral patches to the main...

(What ever it takes to make 2 hatch 2 queen larvae spending on mixed ling/gas unit properly efficient with larvae production.

[souljah]

So in your line of thought, maps should be "balanced" in favour of zergs and thus, be "unbalanced" against the other 2 races? Why not play in the practice league then, you can tech up all you want cos nobody attacks within the first 25 mins

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Zanderax:

[MazEi]

AtlasMeCH, shut the **** up.

[AtlasMeCH]

Originally Posted by souljah

So in your line of thought, maps should be "balanced" in favour of zergs and thus, be "unbalanced" against the other 2 races? Why not play in the practice league then, you can tech up all you want cos nobody attacks within the first 25 mins

I think that one gas makes up for zerg's mechanics in how they are torn in every direction...

Zerg simply has a hard time in mixing offensive production with out it hurting economy...

By being able to stay on muta and build up a bit more, not having to mix with ling, it helps out a bit (Perhaps more particularly against terran) but don't sentries shield stalkers now?

The 9-10 mineral patches should be a logical change.

Zerglings alone don't counter zealot stalker...

Mutas alone don't counter zealot stalker

(1 gate pumping zealot)

It has to be a mixture of ling muta, but toss is keeping economy going in the mean time...

I think this helps so that zerg can can actually somewhat combat stalker with just muta, for a bit longer... keeping econ going with out over interrupting it.



And how is it zerg favored?

You can put your nexus or your command center next to the one gas and use it if you want to as well.

[souljah]

So by zerg's mechanics, you mean how they are able to outproduce the other 2 races in drones or units? The way zerg is meant to be played is like extremes, either you make a shit load of drones and barely defend everything till you have the optimal amount, or you can make just enough drones and keep throwing armies at your opponent... this is in comparison with the other 2 races whereby they have to have even production of both probes /scvs and combat units cos its difficult for them to insta-flood 28 food worth of units off 2 bases. In that sense, zergs have the best ability to instantly react to any attacks that are incoming, and hence make the minimal amount of units needed to defend it.

and who says you have to build lings as mineral dump when going mutas,,, cant you go drones and more hatches while your mutas are pulling your opponent every ass way -.-

[AtlasMeCH]

Originally Posted by souljah

So by zerg's mechanics, you mean how they are able to outproduce the other 2 races in drones or units? The way zerg is meant to be played is like extremes, either you make a shit load of drones and barely defend everything till you have the optimal amount, or you can make just enough drones and keep throwing armies at your opponent... this is in comparison with the other 2 races whereby they have to have even production of both probes /scvs and combat units cos its difficult for them to insta-flood 28 food worth of units off 2 bases. In that sense, zergs have the best ability to instantly react to any attacks that are incoming, and hence make the minimal amount of units needed to defend it.

and who says you have to build lings as mineral dump when going mutas,,, cant you go drones and more hatches while your mutas are pulling your opponent every ass way -.-

Zerg is a race of extremes in the sense that when ever you start making offense, you feel forced in to having to KEEP making offense and following through on your attack to win the game, and if that fails, which is not that hard for an opponent to cause... that player wins just by surviving... that's not how it should be.

It isn't that zerg can just go back and forth between offense and economy, offense and economy... they have to saturate their base first before making ANY offense so as to not slow them down.

Mutas are in tier 2 which makes them difficult to rush too....

As long as you stay aggressive on the zerg with your earlier faster tier 2 (marine, stalker), you don't have to worry about mutas because you can finish off his buildings faster then your mutas can...

Maybe what you are suggesting is that mutas should have a special damage against buildings...

The reaper is a herassing unit like the muta but has a special attack against buildings...

Why doesn't the muta have one?

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Zerglings alone don't counter zealot stalker...

Mutas alone don't counter zealot stalker

Are you totally serial?

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TABottles:

lol

[souljah]

The muta can fly, the reaper can't (flying is totally different from being able to climb up and down cliffs, for one you get freaking wings which are ass cool). Mutas do bouncing damage, reapers dont. And mutas dont cost much more than reapers do, so why should they get alot more additional benefits than reapers? Its like giving burrowed roaches the ability to slow down units it shoots and the ability to blink.

And when zerg goes on the offensive, it doesnt necesarily means that you must end the game there and then. 1. you force defenses 2. you can snipe key tech buildings 3. you can snipe key units IE colossus, immortals and sentries which are hard to replenish in exchange of units you can easily replenish. Think of it as a terran timing attack, you attack, doesnt kill him, but you either macroed a shit ton more of units, or got buttloads more of drones to make more units LATER ON. It's the same for every battle in every match up, you dont need to kill him, you just need to do proportionate damage to what you lost.

Keeping in mind extremes IE 6 pool. how many times have a zerg done a 6 pool, done no damage other than forcing a cannon and a forge with delayed tech for toss, and went back into mass droning mode that they can keep up with teh toss in economy?

[ETL.Branno]

first of all i think that right now sc2 is the most balanced it has ever been.

i like how in your last thread you talk about how bad the queen is at offense or defense and completely disregarding the fact the they produce more larva and now suddenly you are talking about using the queen for tumors and making larva which is their true purpose. there is nothing wrong with expanding to your natural instead of having 2 hatch inside your main and increasing the amount of mineral and gas patches.

i really cant help but think that you dont understand how to play starcraft at all which is sad for someone that has played "50,000" games

[Kringe]

This guy must be trying to troll the website, because what he is saying is making no sense at all.

He must be in low league and as said before sc2 balance wise is quite good with both races have great success in the tournament scene with the GSL having the same amount of race winners, tournaments having great amount of different race winners like Idra, huk and koreans so this has to be a troll

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Don't you guys see that these are the 2 factors that when put together that is ruining it for zerg? More particularly in team games?

Gas mines don't yield as much gas as they used to in brood war, it's not like 2 gases are being put near the ramp for zerg, just 1.

i wasn't sure with your OP, but this confirms it.

you are the embodiment of the stereotypical retarded zerg.

better for zerg does not equal more balanced. zerg is already by far the easiest race to win with in team games.

[souljah]

Originally Posted by Zealo

i wasn't sure with your OP, but this confirms it.

you are the embodiment of the stereotypical retarded zerg.

better for zerg does not equal more balanced. zerg is already by far the easiest race to win with in team games.

Blizzard does not balance the games for team games, so that point is rather void. But yeah, better for zerg /= balanced. Having a roughly 50% win rate across the board in all non-mirror matchups is the definition of balanced. And according to Blizzard, all the matchups are more or less balanced with win rates of 50-52% for all race with the exception being P v T prior to the patch (not saying Terran OP or anything, sry terran players) So iff others can do it, doesn't it mean that the problem lies not in the balance or "not having an extra geyser near the ramp", but rather in the way you play the game, and the way you view matchups?

[AtlasMeCH]

Well, I would personally like to see what having the proper amount of mineral patches which I would believe be 9-10 so that queen queen hatch hatch actually spends your larvae out put cleaning up excess larvae with out surplussing minerals...

And putting a gas mine up but near the ramp....

Do you guys think you are good? Do you think this would do much if anything at all for your zerg opponent?

[souljah]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Well, I would personally like to see what having the proper amount of mineral patches which I would believe be 9-10 so that queen queen hatch hatch actually spends your larvae out put cleaning up excess larvae with out surplussing minerals...

1. the point of having an excess of minerals for zerg is so that when they need to make units, they can instantly make lots of units off their hatches, which is why it is common for alot of zergs to float minerals just so when they need them, they have it.

2. thats where the macro hatch for zergs come into play, where they have an additional hatch just for the purpose of producing units. 2 bases worth of minerals and gas can support 3 hatches worth of drones / units and upgrades. and as you expand more, your income doesnt increase as much as you wont be able to fully saturate all your bases, while your production capacity increases linearly, so your late game production is actually greater than actually can be supported, which is where the early stockpile of minerals and gas comes in.

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Do you guys think you are good? Do you think this would do much if anything at all for your zerg opponent?

Well do you think you are good enough to commentate on it then, given your "5000+ games of Starcraft over numerous years"?

[Zanderax]

Originally Posted by souljah

Keeping in mind extremes IE 6 pool. how many times have a zerg done a 6 pool, done no damage other than forcing a cannon and a forge with delayed tech for toss, and went back into mass droning mode that they can keep up with teh toss in economy?

Did that in the BSGCL, almost got his nexus. I still lost though :P

[Mezza]

Dear All,

I've issued atlasmech with a temp ban for 3 days so that he can chill out for a couple of days. Basically he has time and again rehashed (poor) content from a previously closed thread despite forum mods already telling him to lay off.

I will also be shutting this thread down as it offers nothing else that is useful, nor worthy of discussion.

Mezza

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