[Monk]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Seriously, you're saying Protoss is struggling on GM/M ladders because they're a bunch of cheesing noobs? You can cheese your way to high ladder with any race. Really sick of seeing the argument that toss players are less "skilled" (all 3 races have relatively easy mechanics), especially from silver zergs.

Then you say it's fine at pro level because they're doing "great" (how about some actual stats?). Mentioning Tyler and inc just shows how clueless you are, they're both under 50% win rates and haven't won shit.

Enjoying this thread, Tom's somehow made a non-whiney balance related OP o.O

Incontrol coming 4th at the last MLG isn't great? Jesus christ high expectations right there. And sure Tyler hasn't been producing results, but his consistent and is one of the best protoss players out there. Tyler and inc <50% win rate? So ******* what. Maybe they have been playing top notch players, like they have in MLG this season. I don't know, nor do I really care. If we're going to look at stats and win rates, then how about this:

NASL - Season 1
TvZ: 50-65 (43.5%)
ZvP: 49-45 (52.1%)
PvT: 57-41 (58.2%)

Ohh my what is this? Protoss taking 58% of games over T and 48% of games off of Z. I really honestly don't call that underpowered.

MLG - Dallas
TvZ: 77-71 (52%)
ZvP: 68-57 (54.4%)
PvT: 63-72 (46.7%)

And yeah Protoss is so underpowered at pro level, winning 46% Against T and losing 46% against Z.

MLG - Columbus Day 2
TvZ: 7-18 (28%)
ZvP: 11-9 (55%)
PvT: 4-3 (57.1%)

With a 57% win rate over T so far, and a 45% win rate against Z they're definitely underpowered!!!!

P.S I hope I read those percentages correctly :x big backfire if I didn't.

And all 3 races have cheesy builds sure, but Protoss has the easiest cheese-skill level available in my opinion AND I don't know about you, but when I ladder on NA 80% of the time I get cheese from Protoss. Cannon rush, Proxy Stargate etc. Terran I've met are generally good with the occasional mass thor/banshee.

What I am saying is, with the above tournament results(In NA atleast) Protoss are doing fairly well.

EDIT::

Originally Posted by Tom

I'll leave to one side what some people might interpret as a general insult to Protoss players.

I don't think the issue is "people know how to respond to cheese now", as you appear to be suggesting. If you watch the games from the GSL super tournament, the best results in the round of 64 came from players who used relatively gimmicky timing attacks (eg Ace and HongUn). No disrespect intended to these players - you need to do what works in the circumstances. The Protoss players who played what we might consider a "solid macro game" seemed to be the ones who did not advance.

I don't really watch GSTL, but what I have watched are mainly TvT's/ZvT's or ZvZ's. So that's saying something huh?

Maybe the Protoss 'idea' now is not actually a straight up macro game then? Maybe a new discovered 'gimmicky' timing push needs to be made?

It's like the 2 rax bunker play against Zerg. Why wasn't it thought of even earlier? A lot of Zergs would of been shot in the foot and unable to proceed in rankings or tournaments just because it's a very very strong build. Protoss needs to find an equivalent. 4 gate won't cut it now because a lot of people know how to hold it off, and know what signs to look for. I guess there is a Protoss equivalent.

Zerg Baneling bombs weren't all that used in pro leagues before, now they're really dominant. I guess Protoss have to find this 'new' style of play to come out of the slumps?