[ROCCAT_Savior]

It pains me to see Zergs not being able to hit 70 supply, let alone 80 in ZvP by the 8 min mark.
By having that much supply, primarily in drones, by the 8 min mark, everything is SO much easier. You can have 6 gasses and 3 bases fully saturated, and begin pumping units and teching in preparation for the mid and late game.


(Ignore the fact that my opponent is zerg XD)

This guide is going to focus explicitly on the opening 8 mins of this match up, and by the end of it, with the replays attached, hopefully all of you will be able to copy, examine and emulate this crucial time period into your own games.

What this guide is going to assume is that A. You get your hatch down before making your first pair of lings/queen. B. There is no WG pressure from your opponent. C. You don’t get pylon blocked at all.
This guide also doesn’t include information on scouting, overlord positions etc, although looking at the replays will give incite into where I send my ovies.

With WG Pressure in the form of 4gate +1 attacks and the like, it’s not uncommon to be hitting mid 80, sometimes even 90 supply due to making roaches, this guide is doing it purely off of 1 supply units, bar 3 queens.
Things to bare in mind: If you have to throw your nat down after your queen +2 lings, hitting 78 supply is still possible.
If you get pylon blocked once 78 supply is still possible.
If you get double pylon blocked, hitting 70 supply + should be your goal (Make 3rd hatch before 2nd queen in this scenario)

If your Protoss opponent does some zealot stalker pressure, make lings reactively, over 80 supply will most likely not be possible at this point due to losing lings and possibly drones, but mid/high 70s is very doable.
Now that that stuff is out of the way, down to business!

So the opening is standard as standard can be
15P
16H

15Overlord – Rally to 3rd
1 Pair of lings
17 Queen – Goes to Nat. Injects, 1 Creep Tumour, Goes to 3rd
18Drone – Send to 3rd
Rally drones to Nat (Main is now fully saturated)
23 Queen – Queued up in Main
25 3rd Hatch -> Smack Bang on 4:20
24OL
28 Queen
31OL
36OL
42OL
44 Supply at 6 mins
6:30-45 3 Gas -1 At each base, rally 5 drones to main (4 for Gas + Tech building)
48OL
58 *2OL
7 Min Evo
Gas Usage – Lair -> Speed/Upgrade
70OL
~7:30 Last 3 Gas – Rally drones where needed
8 Mins 78+ Supply


On paper, written down like that, I guess you could assume it not being that difficult to achieve a ~80 supply. In order to actually reach a supply count like that though, you can’t have any macro errors, everything needs to be muscle memory, and executed perfectly.

I feel there are several reasons why players are unable to reach these supply’s on a regular basis, and why the build outlined above can. A small aspect of it is that you have to be constantly producing drones, tapping 4sd every spare moment, however I feel the greater issue lies with other macro issues, which the above build, to a certain extent, remedies. I feel as though the primary reason for the above build allowing me to achieve such high supply is that all the injects, are synced, almost perfectly so. I use the backspace inject method so by having them all synced, I can keep my injects perfect, as in never more than 3 energy, for the entirety of this opening time period.
Another reason for the high supply is that the overlord timings laid out are virtually perfect. One of my biggest reasons for not hitting above even 62 supply when I was in the lower masters area was due to the fact that I was getting supply blocked at around 54 supply, following the timings outlined above you shouldn’t really get supply blocked at all, unless you forget.

So whats the best way to go about practicing this?
To begin with, I’d suggest playing some custom games just in an attempt to nail down the injects, overlord timings etc. This build is probably relatively similar to the one many of you use on ladder, bar possibly the gas timings.

Most of the items outlined are fairly simple to remember, but I would recommend having a post it note, or something along those lines in close proximity to your computer screen, with all the overlord timings written out. Eventually it will become second nature, but to begin with this greatly assists with remembering them.


In conclusion, hopefully a bunch of youwill find this useful, I realize the guide may come across as a bit snooty, but hitting 80 odd supply at 8mins just gives you such a strong economy and I felt this had to be worth sharing with the community. I feel the build I’ve outlined, and have used/perfected over the past 6 months or so is the best way to achieve this. Ultimately by achieving mid 70+ supply by 8 mins, you set yourself up for an indestructible late game army, netting yourself the GG.


Hope you guys have fun wrecking Protoss even more on ladder than I’m sure you are already – Savior

Contemplating a follow up ZvP Guide on Muta into Ultra bane, We’ll see though


Replays
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=2084
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=2083
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=2082
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=2081
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=2091
For the most part these outline the build, some of the timings are a tad off, but I hit mid-high 70s in each one

Any questions/constructive criticism greatly appreciated.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

Thanks so much for this, really looking forward to putting some time into this

[BearPack]

amazing write-up, love the effort!

[IXLives]

Nice article saviour, covered every angle efficiently. Good work!

[jayaiwhy]

cant wait to go home and watch them, ZvP my weakest mu ;;

edit: first time I tried, 83 by 8:06 ^^

[Fenner]

This is awesome. Great work dude.

This should be the first thing you work on in macro ZvP and if you lose to a 2base allin (that isnt some silly 7 gate or someithng that doesnt allow you to get to this point) you should always be looking at whether you hit 80 supply by 8 mins to see if you lost the game due to your own macro or not. If you didn't reach this point by 8 mins then you probably lost the game due to your own macro errors.

I personally go by 70 supply at 7:20, but obviously very similar. Your benchmark is just 1 more inject along.

I notice that you get your 3rd queen early compared to me, I get it around 36 supply (I stole that from SortOf who had a ridiculously fast road up to 70 supply in drones.) Difference is probably tiny... But I wonder which is better.

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

I like my Queen timings because they synch up with each other and I get 1 creep tumour to mess around with.

[ROOTPetraeus]

I don't think you should get an evo chamber upgrade before speed o.o It means you'll still have slow lings by the time immortal sentry pushes out.

Quick Comments

syfPhoenix:

^^ this was my first concern

[Fenner]

Originally Posted by fray`Petraeus

I don't think you should get an evo chamber upgrade before speed o.o It means you'll still have slow lings by the time immortal sentry pushes out.

Oh yeah didn't notice that O_O

What time does speed finish like that?

[jayaiwhy]

Originally Posted by fray`fenner

Oh yeah didn't notice that O_O

What time does speed finish like that?

way too late for the push

I've been doing this for couple of games today, and it's pretty damn greedy.

[ROCCAT_Savior]

Originally Posted by fray`Petraeus

I don't think you should get an evo chamber upgrade before speed o.o It means you'll still have slow lings by the time immortal sentry pushes out.

Speed and upgrades are somewhat interchangeable, the key, atleast for my build is that you get lair first, as I tech fast to muta. I guess I can change that bit.

[TCPKiaSu]

thanks! ^^ been trying to learn z :P

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

np :)

[jayaiwhy]

half the replays dont work TT

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

=0 ok i'll round up a few more today and add them to the OP

[PiG]

Sick guide man and you covered all the important points. The constantly building drones gives a solid boost to your economy, so long as you have the apm to do that without letting anything else fall behind.

A note from myself would be that there should always be several "markers" such as this "80 supply at 8:00" throughout your play. Personally I just check I have 60 drones at 8:00 and am happy with that, after reading this I'm going to be much more anal ensuring I'm hitting my macro as hard as I can to this point!

I've focused more on the 6:00 mark. I used to aim for 40 supply at 6:00 but these days it's 46 at 6:00.

Other important markers to reach in "standard" ZvP would be getting your macro hatch down no later than 8:00, and often as early as 7:00 if you're doing a later gas timing such as 3 gas on 6:45.

Roach warren by 7:30 and evo by 8:00 also is solid.

If you get down a fast macro hatch, warren, evo and say 12 slowlings to push a stalker-zealot off than I'd assume 70 supply at 8:00 is still damn good. So a note to everyone 80 supply is the best possible scenario where you can delay your warren and don't need to contend with early harass. However if you have to deal with possible fast timings and early harass I think about 70 would be a good target. Lemme know if you agree savior I'm pulling this 70 off the top of my head, it could be a little more or less?

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

Thanks pig <3

[Satu]

Originally Posted by PiG

If you get down a fast macro hatch, warren, evo and say 12 slowlings to push a stalker-zealot off than I'd assume 70 supply at 8:00 is still damn good. So a note to everyone 80 supply is the best possible scenario where you can delay your warren and don't need to contend with early harass. However if you have to deal with possible fast timings and early harass I think about 70 would be a good target. Lemme know if you agree savior I'm pulling this 70 off the top of my head, it could be a little more or less?

Whats generally the timing of making those slowlings? Also, maybe 10 could be better? 4 lings beats a zealot, then you'd have an extra 6 for the stalker (plus 2-3 lings if your zealot lings surround the zealot) plus you'd have a queen at the hatch to use too if they engage.

Tbh, takes 2-3 minutes to test, so I'll do that now.

Edit:

With protoss microing and zerg a-moving (protoss not focusing queen):
1 queen 6 lings vs 1 stalker 1 zealot
1 queen left over, 1 stalker left over on low hp.

With protoss microing, zerg a-moving (protoss not focusing queen)
1 queen 8 lings vs 2 stalker 1 zealot OR 1 stalker 2 zealot
1 queen left over, stalker left over with half shields (or 2 stalkers half hp)

If they focus the queen, there'll be a lot of lings left over (duh)

You want to have watchtower control afterwards, so having 10 if 3 gateway units or 8 if 2 gateway units seems to be the way to go. Plus, you don't even really need to micro to win with those unit counts, you'll simply have enough units (Just don't follow stutter step stalkers across the whole map, engage on creep). Keep in mind you'll have at least two lings on the map earlier for watchtower control that you can to pull back to help vs the pressure, so I don't necessarily mean make 8 or 10.

Probably not overly important, but when everything else in the build is so exact, worthwhile thinking about it imo.

[ROCCAT_Savior]

Originally Posted by PiG

Sick guide man and you covered all the important points. The constantly building drones gives a solid boost to your economy, so long as you have the apm to do that without letting anything else fall behind.

A note from myself would be that there should always be several "markers" such as this "80 supply at 8:00" throughout your play. Personally I just check I have 60 drones at 8:00 and am happy with that, after reading this I'm going to be much more anal ensuring I'm hitting my macro as hard as I can to this point!

I've focused more on the 6:00 mark. I used to aim for 40 supply at 6:00 but these days it's 46 at 6:00.

Other important markers to reach in "standard" ZvP would be getting your macro hatch down no later than 8:00, and often as early as 7:00 if you're doing a later gas timing such as 3 gas on 6:45.

Roach warren by 7:30 and evo by 8:00 also is solid.

If you get down a fast macro hatch, warren, evo and say 12 slowlings to push a stalker-zealot off than I'd assume 70 supply at 8:00 is still damn good. So a note to everyone 80 supply is the best possible scenario where you can delay your warren and don't need to contend with early harass. However if you have to deal with possible fast timings and early harass I think about 70 would be a good target. Lemme know if you agree savior I'm pulling this 70 off the top of my head, it could be a little more or less?

Yea regarding macro hatches, the style I'm exploring atm leads itself to taking a 4th as opposed to a macro hatch. Generally having that down before 8 mins is very good. I think even with taking a macro hatch that early you can still hit mid 70 supply. I recall a custom game I played a while back where I had 81 odd supply a macro hatch and a 4th by like 8:30, so I don't think taking it should limit you that much.

the 10-12 lings obviously depends on how much pressure their putting on and with what units, but yea it can also cut your drone count a decent amount.

I just like getting as many drones out as quick as I can do I can have 6 saturated gasses asap to pump ma techy units.

Originally Posted by xGKingSatu

Whats generally the timing of making those slowlings? Also, maybe 10 could be better? 4 lings beats a zealot, then you'd have an extra 6 for the stalker (plus 2-3 lings if your zealot lings surround the zealot) plus you'd have a queen at the hatch to use too if they engage.

Tbh, takes 2-3 minutes to test, so I'll do that now.

Edit:

With protoss microing and zerg a-moving (protoss not focusing queen):
1 queen 6 lings vs 1 stalker 1 zealot
1 queen left over, 1 stalker left over on low hp.

With protoss microing, zerg a-moving (protoss not focusing queen)
1 queen 8 lings vs 2 stalker 1 zealot OR 1 stalker 2 zealot
1 queen left over, stalker left over with half shields (or 2 stalkers half hp)

If they focus the queen, there'll be a lot of lings left over (duh)

You want to have watchtower control afterwards, so having 10 if 3 gateway units or 8 if 2 gateway units seems to be the way to go. Plus, you don't even really need to micro to win with those unit counts, you'll simply have enough units (Just don't follow stutter step stalkers across the whole map, engage on creep). Keep in mind you'll have at least two lings on the map earlier for watchtower control that you can to pull back to help vs the pressure, so I don't necessarily mean make 8 or 10.

Probably not overly important, but when everything else in the build is so exact, worthwhile thinking about it imo.

Thats some really inciteful information, thanks, definitely something everyone should keep in mind, I frequently see people overreact to the early types of pressure, or not react enough and lose queens/drones etc.

[nGenLight]

This is fantastic information, please keep this discussion alive!

& please continue the mindset that the Protoss are NPCs that occassionally send a zealot/stalker forward.

4th Base before 8:30 is also a fantastic idea!

Quick Comments

	Fairyking:	Free wins for us :D
	ROCCAT_Savior:	Lol, I thought I'd added to make lings reactively to stupid protoss units

[TADivinity]

Does anyone know a good supply & timing (for reference) that you should be hitting if the Protoss get a pylon down at the Nat?

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

1 pylon and you can still hit 75+ at 8 mins. double and you can just about hit 70

[mGGDrGooSe]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Does anyone know a good supply & timing (for reference) that you should be hitting if the Protoss get a pylon down at the Nat?

I just wanna say that the specific opening you go doesn't actually matter, all of them can get to 80 supply at 8 minutes if you 100% concentrate on spending larva and getting overlords exactly when needed (ie not early or late). The safest way I have found --and I know it isn't the most efficient, just safest IME-- is 14p16h dragging two drones down to the natural at 150 minerals on 16 supply. I micro one against the probe, trying to keep the drone centred pretty centrally to where they wanna put their pylon/your hatch. At 300-350 minerals I get an overlord so that I can still get my queen and lings on time. At high plat and below there is a 50/50 chance they will screw up and lose the probe altogether, sometimes without even getting the pylon out. With this, I can still kill the pylon (4 lings), get my 2nd queen before 3rd hatch and have the 3rd starting at 4.30. Did this last night and hit 77 supply at 8 minutes (6 min dble gas, 3rd gas when other 2 have finished).

Now obviously many of the people here are much higher level than me, but I feel personally that Savior's opening is a little greedy and unsafe for low league people, especially considering that it actually doesn't matter too much what the specific opening is, a gold level player can still hit near to 80 supply with any comfortable opening. I would definetely encourage lower league players to get up those 2 queens and 4 lings early enough to stop cannon at 3rd or some early zealot+stalker pressure.

[PiG]

Satu the reason I said 12 lings is you need to get rid of the stalker zealot off creep quickly so they can't pylon right outside your 3rd, in a lot of situations. So if zealot-stalker comes you often can't spot if there is a 2nd stalker and a pylon going up and have to overreact a little. Just clarifying

[Stallion]

hold up 4 lings beat zealots O.O and here i am microing a zealot to kill 6 lings and living :P. 12 lings seems a better number then 10 for the 2 zealot stalker push which toss are all about to start doing. Just a heads up cos i like my matches with savior they always so cray cray :P

Quick Comments

	ROOTPetraeus:	4 lings should never lose to a zealot in masters league..
	ROCCAT_Savior:	depends how well the protoss micros their zealot, and z micros kings

[ROCCAT_Savior]

For those of you interested in my follow up (ultra bane) I just added a replay that showcases just that off of the strong opener. In this case the Ultra bane is against phoenix play, shit positions Antiga, hopefully you guys learn something from it and can introduce this awesome style toyour own play! Its the bottom replay ^.^ or its in the side bar if you need.

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

Gonna try muta into ultra bane now! sounds like a more fun transition from mutas!