[ryrymanpie]

Hi guys,

I am in gold league player and having an increasingly difficult time playing v.. i honestly feel if i do not get a substantial lead early-mid game through harass or capitalizing on their errors i get crushed.

A big problem for me at the moment is chargelots...... the terran counter for these i hear is BF hellions however im sure you'll all agree that it isn't ideal to be building and teching into that tree and most of the time its too late.

Of course the chargelots are reinforced by immortals; collosus; stalkers; sentries; HT's archons, the list goes on. Just today, i bumped heads with a army, about 70 food i think? this was early game, i was 1-1 he was 1-0... I was using a MMM build anyway, i had an ecnomic; army and upgrade advantage however i still was destroyed, i was prepared for this attack also.

Just wondering how you guys are dealing with this? I am honestly finding my games against pointless, i beat platinum and players, but then lose to a silver player. Not trying to sound like an elitist and im sure has alot more to it than A+move.

Anyway, i look forward to your feedback.

Ryrymanpie

Quick Comments

	ToRSmotPokingFish:	haha story of my life :(
	VB_heathen:	It's not being elitist, it's being honest.

[ToRSpookToR]

need replays bro, dont make blue flame hellions at all.

[ryrymanpie]

Hold on 1 sec, i'll bring up some replays.

[ryrymanpie]

http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29DsA...rymanpie/21015


and

http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29Ryr...enocider/21014

In no way am i saying that i played perfectly and that its bullshit that i lost or anything its just i am finding TvP incredibly difficult compaired to other match ups and i don't feel like im playing worse it just seems like a higher level of skill is required to play against protoss as opposed to terran or zerg....

Anyway, have a look, thanks for the help in advance!

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

will watch and provide feedback tmoz, for next time use the "replay feedback thread"

[nGenLight]

Upgrades, Concave, Alot of dudes.

Sorry to be short, at work.

[mGGAequitas]

replays not working for anyone else?

[ryrymanpie]

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=791

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=792

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by ryrymanpie

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=791

well your problem is your macro. you just have no units.
your worker production is decent although your saturation could be slightly better.

+ [strategy] +

Also your build doesn't really make sense. You open up very tech heavy, banshee, hellions and double engi bay then you go for an attack, which there is no way you will ever do damage with, you have 9 marines 2 marauder 2 hellions a bansshe and 4 medivacs. Just his stalker count would be enough to stop ur push. and when you add in the ff's guardian shield zealots and reinforcements you have no chance. you have invested too much in things which won't have paid off yet. like your double engi bay means you will be stronger LATER on, so no need to push. Your hellions and banshee delays your mmm count but will delay his econ (forcing him to make cannons and/or detection) so that will again make you stronger later on.

Your main problem is your unit production load up the replay and select 8x speed then just sit there looking at your barracks and all the times that you aren't making units but have the money to do so. This is why you lose. You float a lot of resources and don't make any units, then you realize you are floating a lot so you build a lot more production buildings, which again you don't use.
So focus on spending your money and having constant unit production.

[ryrymanpie]

Thanks yeah i realise that is a problem of mine, i either throw down too much production and can't produce etc etc. Still I kinda feel that if two armies collide both with equal food; upgrades etc, protoss just has an incredibly powerful unit composition in general and then with chargelots in the face makes it even harder...

The purpose of my initial harress is like you said to do econ damage because from what i hear protoss unhindered and left to macro will just roll through me.. I have previously skipped the early harass and gone for straight MMM build but the lack of harass and free macro just lets protoss create their unbeatable deathball...

I am sure you can tell by now i am very confused... do you think if my macro was more solid i would have being the victor in those match ups? Also i appreciate your feed back and taking the time to help me!

Regards,

Ryrymanpie

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by ryrymanpie

from what i hear protoss unhindered and left to macro will just roll through me..

you heard wrong

Originally Posted by ryrymanpie

free macro just lets protoss create their unbeatable deathball...

Terran deathball is even to the protoss one it's usually a dance between storm/feedback and emp/snipe, whoever gets them off better will win the engagement. but if controlled properly the terran deathball will win because emp/snipe has longer range but ppl can't controll armies perfectly so it is about even.

but all that isn't a problem since you can literally win by just macroing well up until plat diamond.
try the marine drill where you don't even mine gas just focus on constant scv constant marine and expanding. dont worry about micro either just 1a. it's to get you better at macroing

Quick Comments

VB_heathen:

Always find myself going back that marine/filtersc style marco training. Ist good.

[ryrymanpie]

Sounds interesting method of getting macro down, i'll give it a go! thanks again I'll let you know how the macro work goes haha

[LiquidNova]

Coming from a protoss perspective looking at this matchup, I know that stutter stepping devastates chargelots at least in early game. Macro should definitely come first, but try practicing stimming and then stutter stepping your marines back. If you can get that technique down perfectly, you should find yourself winning more of the early/mid game engagements/

[FS.Kezz]

I haven't watched your replays, but I will give some general advice:

1: Don't build blue-flame hellions into a bio composition. The resources you invest into those could provide you a LOT more marines and marauders. For maximum effectiveness, stick with pure marine/marauder/medivac for that first timing attack (should include stim, combat shields and the +1 attack upgrade).

2: If you're going for a timing attack, it will only be as strong as your macro has been for the time leading up to it. Hit up the FilterStarCraft series (youtube.com/filtersc) for perfect help on this. There is nothing wrong with starting at the Bronze level videos even though you are in Gold, because it will give you the fundamental mechanics.

3: In terms of micro when engaging a Protoss, there are 2 quite easy things you can do that will help you a lot in most engagements. The first is to pre-arrange your bio into a concave. This mitigates a LOT of the Protoss AoE damage (which is where their strength lies). Keep an eye on where the enemy army is (don't be afraid to scan!) and make sure that if his army comes anywhere near yours, your army is already arranged into a concave. The second one is to let your Marauders do the tanking! Once you stim and give the first attack command to your whole army, ctrl+click on 1 marine (to select all marines) and micro only your marines around.

The Protoss will be attack moving his Zealot/Stalker/Colossus army and your Marauders will soak up SO MUCH DAMAGE, including storms, Colossus lasers, and Charged Zealot onslaughts. Ensure a decent number of Marauders in your composition to do this effectively (~3 for every 10 marines). Meanwhile, your marines deal out their damage, first focusing down the big expensive units (Colossi, Immortals, Archons, High Templar, Sentries), then killing the remaining Stalkers and Zealots. Keep in mind that all of this happens very quickly, and you can't expect to get it perfect the first time, or every time just yet. Repetition will make these engagements second nature after many many games and you will find yourself loving TvP once again.

[ryrymanpie]

Originally Posted by FS.Kezz

I haven't watched your replays, but I will give some general advice:

1: Don't build blue-flame hellions into a bio composition. The resources you invest into those could provide you a LOT more marines and marauders. For maximum effectiveness, stick with pure marine/marauder/medivac for that first timing attack (should include stim, combat shields and the +1 attack upgrade).

2: If you're going for a timing attack, it will only be as strong as your macro has been for the time leading up to it. Hit up the FilterStarCraft series (youtube.com/filtersc) for perfect help on this. There is nothing wrong with starting at the Bronze level videos even though you are in Gold, because it will give you the fundamental mechanics.

3: In terms of micro when engaging a Protoss, there are 2 quite easy things you can do that will help you a lot in most engagements. The first is to pre-arrange your bio into a concave. This mitigates a LOT of the Protoss AoE damage (which is where their strength lies). Keep an eye on where the enemy army is (don't be afraid to scan!) and make sure that if his army comes anywhere near yours, your army is already arranged into a concave. The second one is to let your Marauders do the tanking! Once you stim and give the first attack command to your whole army, ctrl+click on 1 marine (to select all marines) and micro only your marines around.

The Protoss will be attack moving his Zealot/Stalker/Colossus army and your Marauders will soak up SO MUCH DAMAGE, including storms, Colossus lasers, and Charged Zealot onslaughts. Ensure a decent number of Marauders in your composition to do this effectively (~3 for every 10 marines). Meanwhile, your marines deal out their damage, first focusing down the big expensive units (Colossi, Immortals, Archons, High Templar, Sentries), then killing the remaining Stalkers and Zealots. Keep in mind that all of this happens very quickly, and you can't expect to get it perfect the first time, or every time just yet. Repetition will make these engagements second nature after many many games and you will find yourself loving TvP once again.

Thanks FS.Kezz, very good advice i will also give this ago! Yeah i've already done the filtersc stuff should probably go back to some of it. Anyway thanks again.

[NighTerra]

The first thing you need to do is listen to Aequitas. Your macro slips a lot and you need to maintain constant production. Learn and understand the Terran macro cycle. You need to be making units all the time, unless you are working to hit specific timings or achieve something in particular (IE cutting unit production to be greedier early).

The second thing you need to do is to not listen to Aequitas. If you let the Protoss do whatever he wants for 16 minutes he will win. The majority of standard TvP styles revolve around doing damage within the 10-15 minute period for a very good reason. Bio is incredibly fragile, and even if you can win the Ghost/HT war and prevent storms from killing everything, his collossus do so much AoE that even with Vikings in your composition, you will pretty much lose any fight. Bio is strong in smaller numbers. Exploit that, and attack in the midgame. (Exceptions to this exist, though, if you grab an early econmic lead. In that case, it is usually preferable to play for the late game, because an early game lead will grow exponentially through time, assuming that both players are of equal skill).

Another thing you seem to be missing is an understanding of how you need to orient all aspects of your play to reach a single goal. Aequitas also mentioned this, you can't be teching heavily and upgrading whilst aiming for an early/mid game timing attack. You are spreading your resources too thin, and all you end up with is a weak attack which will be deflected, along with slowed tech at home that would have been in better shape if you didn't throw resources into a useless timing.

For example, against nexus first Protoss styles, I usually grab 3 bases off of my first rax, followed by 2 more raxes and 2 ebays. I am clearly being greedy here, and am positioning myself for a stronger mid/late game timing. This means that I don't blow resources with an attack at 11 minutes which is really weak anyway because I have been spending a lot of money expanding and teching, and I instead devote all of my resources to strengthening my mid/late game.

Quick Comments

VB_heathen:

your respose to the nexus first pleases me, defs trying it out.

[mGGPrometheus]

Just adding on to what NighTerra said,

If protoss goes nexus first I consider it a build order loss if you go 1 rax FE and don't have an early 3rd CC. With 3CC you will have pretty much everything else exactly the same at 10 minutes, except you will have an in-base 3rd ready to float out and many more SCVs. Essentially you're 1 base ahead for free.

Many times when you lose a game and don't know how, the hidden killer is macro. If your opponent plays greedy (if protoss no-gas expands), you must play greedy or exploit greed (although aggression usually involves 13gas and that occurs before you scout). If you play safe you will be behind.