[QuestionMark]

Hello all,

Would like to seek out advise for TvTs.
I understand initial pushes would be tank/vikings and some infantry support. Harassment would include banshees/drops etc.

However, after 2nd base I do not know when to expand, push or do some drops.
I always seem to think I'm behind if my initial pushes does not succeed.

Seeking out advise for this very confusing match-up.(for me)
What indications should I look for before pushing out when should I transit into MM.

Any comments/feedback would be welcomed!

Thank you!

Edit: Also, after the match I would look at summary screen and realize that I definitely had more units either at a point of time or the whole game. Thus concluded that maybe my engagement was kind of wrong. So how do I actually push into the opponent terran that has more advantage in terms of tanks and high ground etc.

[HuT]

1 Rax FE can be your safest bet, as long as you scout for cheese / all-in strategies.. I've been scouting after my supply depot goes down just to be sure. This build is safer on 4 player maps obviously, but as I said, scouting is crucial.

Ive been wanting to play pure bio in TvT, but its not working so well. Bio is great early, but is so bad when holding back tank pushes.. Maybe I need ghosts to nuke, idk. But 3 rax transitioning into tanks seems like the way to go, that way you still have the mobility of bio to do drops, while atleast defending yourself with tanks.

[QuestionMark]

Originally Posted by Dr. Nick

1 Rax FE can be your safest bet, as long as you scout for cheese / all-in strategies.. I've been scouting after my supply depot goes down just to be sure. This build is safer on 4 player maps obviously, but as I said, scouting is crucial.

Ive been wanting to play pure bio in TvT, but its not working so well. Bio is great early, but is so bad when holding back tank pushes.. Maybe I need ghosts to nuke, idk. But 3 rax transitioning into tanks seems like the way to go, that way you still have the mobility of bio to do drops, while atleast defending yourself with tanks.

1 Rax FE seems really vulnerable to tanks timing push. :/

[Malik]

1 Rax Fe is very vulnerable to a tank timing push though if u scout and be agreesive then u can do it as ur opponent plays defensive dosent relise ur on 2 base and then ur ahead though u must make sure that u get units fairly promptly or u will die from a big push.

With terran u can go pure bio but u have to be hyper aggressive take bases and get upgrades or they will just got a shitload of tanks and make a doom push.

[FatHuntresS]

Foxer is your Answer

[Malik]

i see foxers style as very good vs banshee builds and the like but if ur anything but hyperaggressive then u will get over run by seige tanks

anyway i have tried a bio into bio-mech opening and it works really well as they tend not to have that many units relatively and u can do quite a bit of damage kill a few scvs depos add ons

[ROOT`iaguz]

1 rax FE is vulnerable. ITR just played like shit against it, that's all. If you want proof, watch Nada's tvt on xel'naga caverns (ro64 or 32, cannot remember which, it was one of those). You have 2 extremely good counters to 1 rax fe (and on LT, you also have tank drop on ledge for damn near instant win)

The first is tank/marine push. This might not kill him, but it gets you in a decent position. Basically, it's a standard 1 rax, reactor, 1 fac tank push. You get 2 tanks, lots of marines, a few scvs and plant them just outside his base and lay down a few bunkers and repair. This might not kill the other guy (as he'll get stim eventually nad be able to break it) but you can get an expansion off the back of it, and be ahead in tank count. That's very important. Skip the starport if you are doing this, you don't need it, get it later.

Your other option is a 1/1/1 blue flame hellion/marine drop. This was done to me on scrap station (a really good map for fe-ing.... OR SO I THOUGHT!). Basically, you go 10 depot, 12 rax, 13 gas, 15 oc, depot, fac + extra gas, tech lab after 3rd marine. Switch fac and rax immeadiately, then start preignitors and add hellions. Next 100 gas goes into port, and right as it finishes get a dropship. You should have 4 hellions and a handful of marines.

now, this is the normal BO for a blue flame hellion drop. You would get a bunker and expand off of this (or not). However, if he is going 1rax fe, you can drop the marines in the back. he has to pull damn near EVERYTHING to counter it, which means your 4 hellions slip through his front and roast everything. Then get siege tanks and expand and win the game from there.

Those are the 2 best counterbuilds to 1rax fe, and there's not really a safe solid counter to them imo.

As for standard tvt practice, the most standard and perfectly normal one is this:

10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 oc
depot
fac
gas
reactor after 3rd marine
tech lab.
depot

Go from there. Add a port for some vikings or w/e, or an Ebay for turrets against cloakced banshee play and expand. It's a very safe and very standard and very adaptable build. You can even attack with it if you want!

[QuestionMark]

Thanks all for the advise.

It's basically how I play I guess. If I'm gonna be going for FE, I'll have to be more aggressive.

Just played with 1 rax FE, used the 3 marine + scv push and got a bunker on my ramp. Then basically macro up a few tanks,vikings and some marines, contain opponent and begin to macro. Seemed to work.

If I'm going for 1/1/1, harass with banshees or drops and after, I'll have to make the push hurt something otherwise it's GGed for myself haha. Of course grabbing your expo whilst harassing.

Is there anything wrong with my mentality or game play?

[Malik]

the 3 marine + 1scv can be good but u can get caught if the enemy goes for a tank timing push as they should have a bunker up to defend their choke push denied tanks out FE dead and ur trapped in ur base with tanks at the bottom and ur opponenet has expanded behind his push. gg

[Canx]

Hey I just played a TvT which I have some problems countering with a standard build. Here's the replay for any kind soul who would like to help me T.T



We spawn on opposite locations on Delta Quadrant, and we both choose not to wall off. I scout and see he went for a 12 gas and fast fac and reactor so I knew either hellions or rine rush coming, but the gas made me think pre-ignitor hellions. Thus I built an extra rax (which I think was a mistake) and went siege tanks and turtled up. His hellions and a banshee (hence I went a viking, initially wanted raven) came and I was able to deflect them with not much losses. Then a cloaked banshee came. I totally wasn't expecting it so I had no scan nor turret-- so I just went to attack with 2 cloaked banshee, 12 marines and a tank. My micro failed in the battle and my marines died. GG

Anyway I would like to know whether anyone else has met this build before and how should it be countered? I'm a plat player (after this game I won another and became diamond) and so am rather helpless is my strategy. Is this a good build TvT? I can say that having fell for it once, I will not fall again. Maruauders and turrets are what can help me win.

[HuT]

Let me expand on from what I posted before.

1 Rax > No Gas > Kill Scouting SCV (or wait for 2nd marine to pop) > Double gas asap > CC > Fac > Tech Lab > Siege Tech before a Tank > Tank > Constant Marines / SCVs throughout all of this > Starport > Viking.

Make sure to scan at 6:30ish, and you can easily defend yourself. This build gives you a normally timed siege tech, and 1+ base. If you see banshees, grab a ebay and get turrets and a viking and save atleast 1 scan for your push. You can hit him if he tries to expo or turtle and drop him to death.

[Malik]

canx from wat i can see the banshee was more a fomality the loss of so many SCVs to the hellions was decisive.

My usual feeling with reactor hellions or mass marines is to get a tank out and a number of marines also dont be afraid to drop a scan u would be suprised how many pro terrans drop scans rather than mules,

i tend to drop a mule and then a scan which gives enough info about wat the enemy is doing and wat they have

[UnFoly]

Scout hard and get unit comp in order to counter his units and such. or you could be a complete idiot like me and go bcs with vikings

[xceL]

Honestly going pure MM isnt bad as long as you remember upgrades.
All I do is wait for the tanks to unsiege and stim my way to victory.
2-1 Marauders against 0-0 tanks are devastating.

I only ever get 1 factory off 2 base for siege tanks, and if he goes heavy viking then I simply don't build any air and just get a thor, which destroys clumps of vikings. If he goes reasonably heavy air you can also take advantage of this as he will have less of a ground army. Just remember how expensive a viking really is! 150/75.

Another strong build is gas first into banshee, with a bunker at the top of your ramp of course.
Cloak banshee can control your opponent so much. Have you ever tried expanding with a banshee roaming around?
He will be forced to either get a raven, or the typical response of turrets. From here you have to pick at buildings around his base, forcing as many turrets as possible. 5 turrets = 500 miners, it's actually quite costly.
You can expand off this early banshee play and go into MMM with a banshee or two.

[Maro]

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

However, after 2nd base I do not know when to expand, push or do some drops.
I always seem to think I'm behind if my initial pushes does not succeed.

I feel you too, and after viewing every replays of my games, I realise that there is this window of opportunity where I hesitate to push out (after massing an army) and ended up losing games.

I'm starting to get a sense that there is a point in game whereby you'll somehow feel that 'critical mass' (quantity is subjective, you gotta trust your instincts here) is reached, and if you combine that with a 'timing push' (i.e you push out exactly right before your unit upgrades are done.), there's a good chance that you'll come out the better.

Where I used to doubt my hunch and nauseating feeling before I push, I'm now advancing and rallying my army towards the enemy, as soon as I feel that a timing push is attainable. A quick scout will give me more info if this attack is viable or if it's best to hold out and re-strategise.

'Critical Mass' + 'Timing Push', generally would help any race, but I hope this helps you in your TvT, as much as it's been helping me with mine.