[dennistoo]

As per the topic, i have real difficulty beating a zerg. I've tried 2G zealots fast push, 1SG consist of 2 VR & Stalkers for 14pool which failed me miserably. It became a fear for me to face a zerg which make me turtle in base to mass out my army for a push.

As such, i would love to have a Zerg training partner or a Toss traing partner to guide me and train with me. Share your tactics with me.

I'm a gold with 1.5k points which put me to shame whenever i can't beat a zerg.

[Torniquet]

You might want to post some replays in this thread for people to look at.
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=202

You can upload your replays to the site or one of the many others that exist

There is also this thread for training partners find people around your level and the race youd like to play, add them and ask if they want to play a game or two.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=99

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Torniquet

You might want to post some replays in this thread for people to look at.
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=202

You can upload your replays to the site or one of the many others that exist

There is also this thread for training partners find people around your level and the race youd like to play, add them and ask if they want to play a game or two.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=99

Thanks Torniquet. I would keep a lookout for that.

[DFM]

I had a huge post written out for this, but by the time I clicked "Post Quick Reply", it told me to relog and everything was lost rofl

Long story short, I'm not that great myself but have you tried a basic opening (like 3 gate) into expand into big gateway push? Keeping up with the zerg ecomony is really the key I think. Obivously if he's one basing you can just stick to one base to, although expanding at some point it always better. Fancy 2-gate zealot pressure or voidray openings don't work that well after the zealot build time increase and the voidray damage nerf.
And as already mentioned, post replays, easier to help that way. IMO most players look for mistakes in the wrong parts of their gameplay.

[Apth]

I'd love to see some replays - and not just because I play Zerg and want to see how it's done

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by DFM

I had a huge post written out for this, but by the time I clicked "Post Quick Reply", it told me to relog and everything was lost rofl

Long story short, I'm not that great myself but have you tried a basic opening (like 3 gate) into expand into big gateway push? Keeping up with the zerg ecomony is really the key I think. Obivously if he's one basing you can just stick to one base to, although expanding at some point it always better. Fancy 2-gate zealot pressure or voidray openings don't work that well after the zealot build time increase and the voidray damage nerf.
And as already mentioned, post replays, easier to help that way. IMO most players look for mistakes in the wrong parts of their gameplay.

Infact, i have not been playing 3G 1R against zerg so far. I always have fear for bringing the match to mid-game as the Zerg army is too huge to contain! Especially mutalisk.. too fast to handle. And by going 3G 1R expand might sounds good but speedlings will come harass and it takes alot of micro skills to contain them too!

Really no luck against Zerg nowadays.. it's a sad ladder matches with 1W 4L with Zerg. And all 5 matches all placed with Zerg.

I do not have any replays now but would love to post 1 up soon!

[DFM]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

Infact, i have not been playing 3G 1R against zerg so far. I always have fear for bringing the match to mid-game as the Zerg army is too huge to contain! Especially mutalisk.. too fast to handle. And by going 3G 1R expand might sounds good but speedlings will come harass and it takes alot of micro skills to contain them too!

Really no luck against Zerg nowadays.. it's a sad ladder matches with 1W 4L with Zerg. And all 5 matches all placed with Zerg.

I do not have any replays now but would love to post 1 up soon!

Well, if you want to get better you'll have to learn those micro skills i'm afraid =/
There's no build that'll get you an easy win, if that's what your looking for.
Also thinking that zerg can do everything at the same time is something you'll have to get out of your head, we're talking about zerg here, not terran 'kay? (lol)
Every set of lings means one less drone or muta. If he's getting a ton of lings to try to deny your expo, it means he has less drones and/or muta will be delayed. On a lot of maps it's possible to wall the expo anyway so lings shouldn't be able to get in that easily.
On maps with wide open expansion, you'll have to be clever with your building placement.

In general in PvZ you'll want to restrict the Zergs movements on the map, plug up chokes where you think it's necessary and try to fight in tighter spaces so the zerg units clump up and colossi/storm can own them.

If you expand you'll want to get a forge down quite soon, for +1 attack so your zealots dominate lings and cannons if you suspect mutas and you decided to go for a more gateway centric army which is less mobile than mutas, even blink stalkers. You'll have to play a lot of games until you'll get a feel for when you can get away without building cannons and when you really need them, that's something that is really difficult to grasp even if pros try to explain it to you, cause the timings are always at least slightly different from game to game.
On Shakuras Plateau I like to go 15 nexus and sometimes I get only 1 cannon at the front and sometimes I get up to 4, depends heavily on what you scout, like everything else in sc2: If you see a lot of lings, get more zealots, if you scout a spire, get a stargate, if you suspect a ton of roaches get blink stalkers and/or immortals.

Just remember, zerg can't get everything at the same time, unless you let them. Every larva spent on unit X means less of Y. Just try to adjust to your composition accordingly.

Also to a recent quote by Refallen: "When in doubt... 4 gate i guess?"

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by DFM

Well, if you want to get better you'll have to learn those micro skills i'm afraid =/
There's no build that'll get you an easy win, if that's what your looking for.
Also thinking that zerg can do everything at the same time is something you'll have to get out of your head, we're talking about zerg here, not terran 'kay? (lol)
Every set of lings means one less drone or muta. If he's getting a ton of lings to try to deny your expo, it means he has less drones and/or muta will be delayed. On a lot of maps it's possible to wall the expo anyway so lings shouldn't be able to get in that easily.
On maps with wide open expansion, you'll have to be clever with your building placement.

In general in PvZ you'll want to restrict the Zergs movements on the map, plug up chokes where you think it's necessary and try to fight in tighter spaces so the zerg units clump up and colossi/storm can own them.

If you expand you'll want to get a forge down quite soon, for +1 attack so your zealots dominate lings and cannons if you suspect mutas and you decided to go for a more gateway centric army which is less mobile than mutas, even blink stalkers. You'll have to play a lot of games until you'll get a feel for when you can get away without building cannons and when you really need them, that's something that is really difficult to grasp even if pros try to explain it to you, cause the timings are always at least slightly different from game to game.
On Shakuras Plateau I like to go 15 nexus and sometimes I get only 1 cannon at the front and sometimes I get up to 4, depends heavily on what you scout, like everything else in sc2: If you see a lot of lings, get more zealots, if you scout a spire, get a stargate, if you suspect a ton of roaches get blink stalkers and/or immortals.

Just remember, zerg can't get everything at the same time, unless you let them. Every larva spent on unit X means less of Y. Just try to adjust to your composition accordingly.

Also to a recent quote by Refallen: "When in doubt... 4 gate i guess?"

I think the main issue with me is scared to expand, scared to push and key thing is very very poor scouting against zerg. I was wondering does Hallucination helps for such cases? Instead of going for fast 1G 1Robo, i can make use of Hallucination to scout of information's instead of spending 200M 100G on Robo and additional 50M 100G for obs?

[Torniquet]

Heh ive lost count of how many times thats happened to me DFM =/ Like updating the past Tournament results then go to post and it had logged me out =/ Nowadays i just make sure i have whatever im posting copied before i send.

[nirvAnA]

welcome to tendersteaks cant beat zerg life! lol

[Torniquet]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

welcome to tendersteaks cant beat zerg life! lol

Hence forth, PvZ troubles shall be known as Tendersteak Syndrome.

But yeah just post up some replays so people can have a look and give you some pointers, tell you why you lost things like that.

[dennistoo]

@Nirvana:

I happens to saw at strategy posted on TL forums on applying 2G pressure for fast expanding Zerg and the two main objectives when 2Ging is to delay the zerg expansion and to force the zerg to build roaches or zerglings instead of drones and transit into Stalkers to protect the zealots from roaches attack follow by expanding with stalkers/zealots.

After expanding, transit into Stargate immediately followed by a twilight council with chargelots and send the first phx to zerg base for scouting info. If scouted they transit into Hydra, tech to DT.

Your tots on this build? Primary concern should be defending the FE with just pure zealots and stalkers. Would it be sufficient?

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

@Nirvana:

I happens to saw at strategy posted on TL forums on applying 2G pressure for fast expanding Zerg and the two main objectives when 2Ging is to delay the zerg expansion and to force the zerg to build roaches or zerglings instead of drones and transit into Stalkers to protect the zealots from roaches attack follow by expanding with stalkers/zealots.

After expanding, transit into Stargate immediately followed by a twilight council with chargelots and send the first phx to zerg base for scouting info. If scouted they transit into Hydra, tech to DT.

Your tots on this build? Primary concern should be defending the FE with just pure zealots and stalkers. Would it be sufficient?

yea i still do that build on some maps like LT where the expansion is small and ez to defend with cannons (if he goes 1 base roach). its weaker with zealot speed time but still viable. however on maps like xel naga its really hard to defend and would got owned hardcore by roach range imo so its better to do that korean fast expand build

pvz is basically zerg has the advantage early game. so toss has to either 4 gate or some sort of cheese to harm the zerg, or expand themselves to keep up with the 2 base zerg economy.

i dislike 4 gating so i recommended expanding, do the korean sentry heavy expand build which white ra did in the blizzcon games, its really strong/flexible. maintian decent stalker/sentry number to keep pressure on the zerg

u gotta be more specific with what u have trouble with, tenders problem was fighting mass roach every game but he solved it already. i also wont recommend VRs or 4 gate those builds are gimmicky and even if u manage to learn to do it well and manage to win a few games its not the right way to learn the game.

also dunno whats with u guys logging out! i ticked the box (its a remember me box)when i login so ive never had that problem b4.

[Torniquet]

The original post was pre patch, Sept 1st. So i dont know if its viable or not anymore with Roach buff. Could be not sure but just something to be mindful of when reading up builds, check the date.

[dennistoo]

Thanks. But i was wondering does 2G early pressure still work for Toss despite the nerf?

[Apth]

Mass Collossus is still what troubles me most against Protoss. I'm hesitant to respond with Corruptors because if my opponent stops making Collossus, I'm left with a whole bunch of useless units, and mass Collossus is freakin scary if you don't have Corruptors.

I haven't had any trouble with 2Gate since the patch, partly because I'm not seeing it much anymore but mostly because Roaches are that much more badass.

[Torniquet]

Havent seen it or done it in a while with the Gateway nerf and Roach buff seems to have negated 2 gate =/ But yeah id wait for a nod or not from a Protoss player rather than random. Might be worthwhile to watch some replas as well, PvZ. IF yo ulook in the latest files or ROTM you should be able to find some. See what builds they are using and maybe adopt some of them?

[Exultant]

Hey man, VR rush still works :P Build stalker to knock out overlord. Build a few VRs and gogo!!

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Exultant

Hey man, VR rush still works :P Build stalker to knock out overlord. Build a few VRs and gogo!!

Yeah, i cheesed with VR and won 2. i blocked his entrance with cannons tho..

[YogenFruz]

Originally Posted by Apth

Mass Collossus is still what troubles me most against Protoss. I'm hesitant to respond with Corruptors because if my opponent stops making Collossus, I'm left with a whole bunch of useless units, and mass Collossus is freakin scary if you don't have Corruptors.

I haven't had any trouble with 2Gate since the patch, partly because I'm not seeing it much anymore but mostly because Roaches are that much more badass.

why dont you just beat him down with mutaroach ball with some speedlings? if the toss isn't controlling well it'll hit the speedlings that are at the feet of the collosi, making the splash inefective, while your mutas tear them apart from the sky and roach to support while burrowing

[DFM]

I seriously doubt 2 gate works on the current patch. I personally haven't done a 2 gate opening since forever. Between zealots taking 5 seconds longer to build and roach +1 range I just don't see it working. Might be a good build to pull out once in a while in a bo3 or in a series in general, but on ladder most zergs open with roaches, which'll rape your zealots. Even stalkers (without blink ofc) have trouble against speed roaches.

And definitely, hallucination can help to scout. This is especially true against Zerg since burrowed roaches aren't all that common yet (although I feel we'll be seeing more of that soon...), so you don't need to rush for detection. However some people will argue that hallucination will come out too late unless you constantly chronoboost it after warpgate finishes, which in turn will hurt your probe production and possibly delay your expansion. I haven't really played around with it too much, so I can't really comment on it.

[dennistoo]

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

[Apth]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G1 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98687-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant

Lots of Protoss players seem to be having trouble with Muta-Ling at the moment. Here's why.
When you see Mutas, you sit in your base in fear. You can't push out because when you do, he annihilates your mineral line. Solution? Cannon up your mineral line, and just go F*&#ing kill him. Be prepared to lose some pylons, and probably some probes, but it is better than the alternative - letting a Zerg player expand all over the map, have a 200/200 army when you're sitting on 115/115, and getting eaten.

Muta-Ling is fragile. If the Zerg player is on the defensive, it's terrible. Mutas and Lings both die so freakin easily. The strength of Muta-Ling is that when it's being aggressive, if the Zerg player thinks he's losing too many units, he can run away. If you're in his base, he can't run anywhere.
Go F*&%ing kill him.

A couple of secondary points - Phoenix is a terrible counter to mass Muta. Phoenixes can kill a lot of Mutas when they can micro away - if he's attacking your mineral line, and you micro away, he just sits there and kills more probes. If you're going to build Phoenixes, go harass him. Snipe Queens, pick off Overlords - force his Mutalisks to come back to his base, so he can't be in yours. Be aggressive.
Expanding next to the destructible debris was not a good idea. Either wait til you can kill the debris, or expand to your second nat at the front of your base.

To reiterate my main point - you *cannot* let a Zerg player sit back, expand and macro up. You will lose. By making Mutas, he is trying to force you to turtle. Don't let him. Be aggressive.

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G2 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98689-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
G3 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/98688-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin

Cannon contain into proxy stargate voidrays? Ew.
You didn't learn anything from these games. Unless you plan to cheese for the rest of your SC2 life, don't do it. Did you win those games? Yep. Did you develop your skills, your knowledge or your proficiency with the game? Not in the slightest.

Cheesing can be fun, but don't do it if you're actually trying to improve how you play the game.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Apth

Lots of Protoss players seem to be having trouble with Muta-Ling at the moment. Here's why.
When you see Mutas, you sit in your base in fear. You can't push out because when you do, he annihilates your mineral line. Solution? Cannon up your mineral line, and just go F*&#ing kill him. Be prepared to lose some pylons, and probably some probes, but it is better than the alternative - letting a Zerg player expand all over the map, have a 200/200 army when you're sitting on 115/115, and getting eaten.

Muta-Ling is fragile. If the Zerg player is on the defensive, it's terrible. Mutas and Lings both die so freakin easily. The strength of Muta-Ling is that when it's being aggressive, if the Zerg player thinks he's losing too many units, he can run away. If you're in his base, he can't run anywhere.
Go F*&%ing kill him.

A couple of secondary points - Phoenix is a terrible counter to mass Muta. Phoenixes can kill a lot of Mutas when they can micro away - if he's attacking your mineral line, and you micro away, he just sits there and kills more probes. If you're going to build Phoenixes, go harass him. Snipe Queens, pick off Overlords - force his Mutalisks to come back to his base, so he can't be in yours. Be aggressive.
Expanding next to the destructible debris was not a good idea. Either wait til you can kill the debris, or expand to your second nat at the front of your base.

To reiterate my main point - you *cannot* let a Zerg player sit back, expand and macro up. You will lose. By making Mutas, he is trying to force you to turtle. Don't let him. Be aggressive.




Cannon contain into proxy stargate voidrays? Ew.
You didn't learn anything from these games. Unless you plan to cheese for the rest of your SC2 life, don't do it. Did you win those games? Yep. Did you develop your skills, your knowledge or your proficiency with the game? Not in the slightest.

Cheesing can be fun, but don't do it if you're actually trying to improve how you play the game.

I think the main issue is purely with mass mutalisk. I have no issue with roaches/lings mixed with hydras. And thanks for pointing out that i'm not as aggressive because i'm just worried to get my army wipe out.

I replayed my reply and i noticed after his failed attempt in pushing with roaches/lings.. i never even counter knowing i have at least 6 stalkers. And i realized i've not been making lost probes and concentrate more on massing my stalkers/phx.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

I think the main issue is purely with mass mutalisk.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't the Mutalisk as a unit that's causing you problems, it's what the Zerg player did with the Mutalisks - namely, harass your mineral line, making you turtle.

The reason you don't have the same problem with Roach/Hydra is because your opponent doesn't have the opportunity to harass you, so you can be as aggressive as you like.

If you push as soon as those first Muta's come out, I think you'll find most Muta-Ling players will fold, as they're counting on you turtling up.

[herahera]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

when i saw this post i was instantly outraged. delta quad and jungle basin are HORRIBLE maps for zerg. I think i need to stress on that point once again. HORRIBLE maps for zerg.

on delta quad as protoss u have a "free" 3 base potential, easily defended, and u can sit in till u max an army, and it'll be up to the zerg to break you. alternatively u can push out, and the close rush distance only swings the battle in your favor.

Jungle basin makes for lots of choke points so as long as u keep your army in a good choke position it will be very hard for zerg to engage you. it is also a very difficult map for Zerg to secure a third and as long as u keep up on bases (which is very easy to do on this map) and keep up on macro you should almost never lose.

You definitely need help, not because you are losing to zerg, but because you're losing on these maps. Btw, i play zerg, and i ban (vote out) delta quadrant, jungle basin and steppes of war from my 1's map pool. I'm pretty sure most zerg players will too.

[shsh]

Try doing phoenix harass, expand and transit to colossus/ht.
When zerg have many expansions, just send 2 -3 dt to each of them, use warp prism. It will irritate the hell out of them.

4 gate can bring u to plat league, use sentries more.
sentry imba!

[Satu]

Im not on the right computer to look at replays or whatever, but as a zerg, I can tell you what annoys the heck outta me in a PvZ.

- As a protoss, if you move out, you will notice a single zergling near your base. Simply moving out and attacking that will force a zerg player to react. Do it often enough and you can make the zerg player react enough to make his economy a bit slower. The economy is what you really have to fear, not the units. The units are only a result of the economy.

- If the zerg player is not reacting heavily, move your army over to their base, then back off. They will DEFINITELY react, if not overreact. They will be making army units and not drones, which really does hurt their offense in the later stages of the game.

- Harrass as much as you possibly can if you get voidrays, just dont lose them. Keep them in your main army once defences are up to stop harrassment that you are trying. Yet again, this is to combat the zerg economy.

- Dont try going 1base, unless the zerg is crap at reacting to your army. Most will be beyond this stage of early zerg play though.

- Since the zerg will typically have a larger army, you have to work with chokes as much as possible. If you have a scarier looking army vs a decent zerg army in an open space, dont risk it. Logic like that should help you more than practicing trying to micro in such an area. If you DO get caught out, spread your forces to attempt to get a concave of some sort. Zerg concaves are super deadly and very easy to get for zerg players. For this reason, dont sit your army outside their base either... Be active with it.

- Phoenix vs overlords is pretty much all you really want to use them for. Zerg will react and get defense for it, but you should be able to stop most of their scouting this way. Just dont go phoenix heavy, I havent ever seen it work, and it will take away from you main army. On top of that, I'd say phoenix are the most likely units for protoss to lose, apart from probes.

- Cannons on your worker lines, even if only one on each, will benefit you a fair bit. Even if the zerg focuses them down with their mutas, it'll give a few more seconds for you to get over there with stalkers/phoenix/voidrays which means less probes loss. Taking into consideration the fact that you'll need a forge for upgrades and the cannon will do damage to the mutas, it should work out nicely. Although, I'd probably reccomend two cannons just for extra area covered.

I know some of that stuff is kind of basic, but everyone can always polish their basics up some more without it hurting much. Unless maybe you broke both your hands the day before. Then you probably wouldn't be able to type in this website and get to this thread anyway. But its as if someone like me would break your hands. Yet.

Note: Zergtastic does not endorse violence in any way, shape or form, unless it is starcraft related.

[divinesage]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

okay guys. i've managed to save some replays from the 3 matches against zerg. I tried the normal standard build order for the first game but ultimately, i've to cheese so hard to win my remaining 2 games.

it would be great if you could advice on what went wrong on my 1st game because it seems like phx still can't contain the mass mutalisk, lings & roaches!

G1
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

Basically what Apth has said. You cannot afford to play reactive against a muta ling zerg army. Muta lings are very fragile and will crack to aggression if done correctly. Phoenixes hard counter Mutalisks but building them as a reaction to mass mutas will not work as the mutalisks will have reached a critical mass by then making your phoenixes very much less effective. Also a few other things to point out as I watched the game.

1. Seems like you like to clump your buildings at the ramp, but it's not a good idea. Basically during the first engage with the zerg's roaches you lost out because the clutter in front of the ramp gave roaches the chance to take potshots at your zealots. So building just two buildings and a pylon or two for the ramp is pretty much sufficient. Keep the rest of your structures away from the ramp (and have more stalkers instead of zealots).

2. Never ever place a nexus that far from the mineral line, especially when you have the luxury of it being protected in your base.

3.I believe that you should have expanded earlier since if you realised, the zerg sunk 375 minerals (and the potential of mining with 3 drones) into spines. That means that he has effectively contained himself in the base for the time being. That being said this is not very much of a concern yet, you need to focus on more probe production.

Originally Posted by dennistoo

G2
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...delta-quadrant

G3
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/9...g-jungle-basin

Nothing much to comment here besides the pylon block. Normally you put the pylon in front of the wall and not the cannon. Pylons have higher health and the cannons don't immediately shut down the moment one wall gets destroyed. Also, no idea why did you do that on jungle basin when the zerg has a second base he can take almost immediately and play a macro game.

[DFM]

Dimaga vs WhiteRa from blizzcon is quite a nice demonstration of how to deal with muta/ling, can't remember which game it was, but it was on LT.

And Phoenixes are a good counter to mutas, if he sits in your mineral line you can sit beside him with the 1 extra range phoenixes have over mutas. You can run your probes in the direction of your phoenixes, if he chases you pick off his muta. Phoenixes move faster, have 1 more range and deal 20dmg to mutas, how is that not a good counter. Sure it takes some skill to control, but it is at least a decent counter.
Besides if he's in your mineral, you should have some sentries and stalkers, sentry and stalkers already do quite ok against muta, especially with guardian shield, add phoenix support and you should be able to chase the mutalisk away, or kill them all. If not, I'm thinking you've been outmacroed =/

I think Apth covered the replay quite well. If you decide to get phoenixes, you need to keep them alive, phoenixes are good against muta, but muta in larger numbers will still kill phoenixes. You were way to defensive, not only with your ground army, but with your phoenixes as well. At one point you had like 5 phoenixes and he had slightly more muta. That would have been a good time to try to poke some overlords, you don't even necessarily have to kill them, even though it's a plus if you do. Mutas were his only anti air, so if you attack the overlords, he'll be forced to chase you with mutas at which point you get a few shots off on his muta and run.
If he's chasing you, he's not in your base killing your probes. Also phoenixes are the fastest unit in the game and if he decides to go to your base you have some stalkers anyway and phoenixes will reinforce relatively fast.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

And Phoenixes are a good counter to mutas... You can run your probes in the direction of your phoenixes

The Zerg player is achieving what he aimed to - hurt your economy.
Phoenixes vs Mutalisks, Phoenixes win. In that sense, they are a counter.
I still don't think Phoenixes are a good response to a Zerg player harassing your mineral line with Mutalisks.

[DFM]

Originally Posted by Apth

The Zerg player is achieving what he aimed to - hurt your economy.
Phoenixes vs Mutalisks, Phoenixes win. In that sense, they are a counter.
I still don't think Phoenixes are a good response to a Zerg player harassing your mineral line with Mutalisks.

I'll try to go phoenixes the next game vs zerg and i'll post the replay. You can judge that then =]
Truth be told, I've only recently started going heavy phoenix to fend of muta, and the skill level on ladder is questionable. I'll try to upload some replays though.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

I'll try to go phoenixes the next game vs zerg and i'll post the replay. You can judge that then =]
Truth be told, I've only recently started going heavy phoenix to fend of muta, and the skill level on ladder is questionable. I'll try to upload some replays though.

That'd be good actually, I usually just get three or four Phoenixes thrown at me, and when they die I never see any more.
Replays would be great.

[DFM]

Here's one a played a while ago:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft...ails&id=162283

My play could have been a bit cleaner but eh.... something like that I guess haha

[Apth]

Originally Posted by DFM

Here's one a played a while ago:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft...ails&id=162283

Well that's convinced me of Phoenix badassery, the Mutas really just didn't do anything that whole game. Cool.

Still not quite sure if they're the best way to react to getting harassed into a corner, but they kill Muta's dead.

Might even go lose a bunch of games on NA so I can start in Bronze with Protoss, just so I can play with Phoenixes.

[Roz]

phoenix is indeed a good counter to mutas, it's just whether or not you switch ur tech at the right time because phoenix alone can't really kills zergs. There are some games where u can probably pump more phoenix even after killing off his mutas to pick up queens and drones to harass and stuff but assuming you don't, u're really going to need a ground army to deal with their switch.

Other than phoenixes, i think a good counter to mutas is getting high templars and maybe some archons on top of the zealot sentry stalker army. The only problem with that is the mobility issue when compared to mutas but if u can put up a few cannons at ur mineral line or if he has a high muta count already, then put 2 templars along with ur cannons. Psi storms are extremely strong against mutas and the archon splash is as well. I don't think you should hesitate from storming yourself as well if they fly their mutas over your army, the psi storm along with archon splash will kill everything in seconds.

Anyways, those are things i like to do so hope it gave you some insights!

[nirvAnA]

some great advice in this thread

hi roz!!

[Apth]

Just to throw down some Day9 wisdom -
Phoenixes are a good counter to Mutas. However, seeing Mutas and thinking "Phoenixes would be good right now" isn't necessarily the correct response.

If you already have a Stargate or two, *and* haven't been blowing all your gas on tech-heavy units already, *and* haven't already got Blink Stalkers, then I'd think about Phoenixes. Otherwise, I'm still not sure I agree with building Phoenixes as a response to Mutalisks.

Edit: That was slightly offtopic. Relating this back to aggression, and keeping a Zerg player on their toes - it's far easier for Zerg players to tech switch than it is for Protoss or Terran. Keeping this in mind, you want them to be the ones responding to you, not the other way around. Pressure is a good way to do this. Don't let a Zerg player get comfy.

Edit: Day9 makes my point for me!
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4357579/ :12 mins in, ish.

[Calikura]

I thought I'd share one of my PvZ games and open it for discussion. This game was played earlier this morning.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/1...rg-metalopolis

The zerg FEs and plays a very conventional 2 base roach. Scouting a late pool and a fast expansion, I open 3 gate robo and push out at the usual timing. He sees the push and drops an extra spine crawler and evo chambers, but I actually manage to snipe his Lair and throw down my own expansion. At this point many players would expect the protoss to have won the game entirely.

But between the ~15 min mark (game time) and the time I had my 3rd base up and running, I found that there was a huge, gaping window of opportunity for the zerg to win the game outright while I sluggishly caught up in the macro game.

Granted, I had made a lot of stupid mistakes like taking forever to saturate my natural, and trying to reinforce my initial push wasting 3 stalkers, etc etc. I also got HT tech but later decided I preferred not to use them (lol). But by sniping such a key tech structure why wasn't the zerg basically done for? Why was he able to catch up so quickly and actually regain his advantage over me and retain it for ten whole game minutes?

[Torniquet]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=167992

Plexas take on PvZ.

Wall of text, beware.

[mashix]

Originally Posted by Calikura

I thought I'd share one of my PvZ games and open it for discussion. This game was played earlier this morning.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/1...rg-metalopolis

The zerg FEs and plays a very conventional 2 base roach. Scouting a late pool and a fast expansion, I open 3 gate robo and push out at the usual timing. He sees the push and drops an extra spine crawler and evo chambers, but I actually manage to snipe his Lair and throw down my own expansion. At this point many players would expect the protoss to have won the game entirely.

But between the ~15 min mark (game time) and the time I had my 3rd base up and running, I found that there was a huge, gaping window of opportunity for the zerg to win the game outright while I sluggishly caught up in the macro game.

Granted, I had made a lot of stupid mistakes like taking forever to saturate my natural, and trying to reinforce my initial push wasting 3 stalkers, etc etc. I also got HT tech but later decided I preferred not to use them (lol). But by sniping such a key tech structure why wasn't the zerg basically done for? Why was he able to catch up so quickly and actually regain his advantage over me and retain it for ten whole game minutes?

I think the first reason is that what you said: you didn't have enough probes to saturate your expo. the 2nd reason is that after having advantage with your 1st push, you should keep some pressure on Zerg, so he will feel that he should produce more attacking units to defend his base, rather than drone up. Because it's hard for protoss or terran if they want to win Zerg purely macro. Zerg produces drones much much faster than you producing probes because they have queen.

[cure]

Just 4gate all-in. Works till diamond lol.

[Millionaire]

I believe that blink stalkers are extremely good against Zerg.If you want to play a macro game, you need to harass the Zerg.I've tried so many times to camp in 2-3 bases and get a doom army. Doesn't work against Zergs at my level

[dethrag]

@dennistoo have you tried blink stalkers and colossi (plus a few sentries if necessary)?