[Oshiego]

http://drop.sc/242038

I rewatched this replay and saw he had a pylon there but I can't seem to find other mistake. I need someone of a higher level to point out my mistake.
Thanks.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Too much replays mate, just let them sink in before posting more please
	mGGAequitas:	lol ignoring nemo like a boss

[DUCKVILLELOL]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

http://drop.sc/242038

I rewatched this replay and saw he had a pylon there but I can't seem to find other mistake. I need someone of a higher level to point out my mistake.
Thanks.

Typing as I watch - bear in mind I actually play an unorthodox version of PvP, so I'm sure the others might be able to provide some other advice that I might miss:

• I also advise people in lower leagues to scout the opponent then patrol. Unless you're sure you know everything that is going on, bouncing around with a probe trying to be cute won't get you much; and in this case you missed chrono quite a lot because you were busy microing the probe
• Personally I don't try and "kill" their scouting probe when it comes into my base. Keep an eye on it, but taking one of yours off the line isn't really worth it, unless it disappears for a long time; in which case go see if you can find it. But as long as there are no pylons in your base or close by, it's all good.
• Your probe production was quite a lot better than your opponent which is nice; however there were a couple of moments where chronos were missed
• At about 6 minutes things are looking pretty good right now, your warpgate was done nicely, your probes are ahead of the opponent (albeit slightly lower than would be optimal, because of those chrono issues I mentioned) - but your opponent is going to have a robo up way quicker than you because you decided to expo. I'm guessing this leads to trouble...
• The concern I have right now is that you're expanding with no tech before or coming soon after it. You've got 3 gates; at this point anything will smash you apart - to safely expand in PvP you need to either have a nice tech play going with it, or be ABSOLUTELY sure your opponent is doing the same. At this point it'd be nice to have a probe in his nat to see if he's expanding (7:06) because you'd know by now that this is quite risky.
• Ok it's 8:20 and he's about to move out, he has an obs and a few ground units; you have a few stalkers/sentry and a small group of zealots - at this point it's actually ok; but like in the previous point the issue is that you have no real tech behind any of this, it's kinda like you're doing a 1gate expand build against a Terran. A forge is done, but no cannons at all, and you're getting +1 weaps which is nice, but again, this really doesn't suit PvP play at all. At 8:32 and he's about to come say hi...
• Alright he comes in once the immortal arrives - and things go a bit haywire for you. Nice FFs there (I think they were his) keeping your few zealots out, and the immo goes to town on everything. Unfortunately you fall down - although interestingly I think 1 cannon might have made a difference here.

When you boil it all down, if this is what normally happens in your PvP I'd say the issue is just the build. From a "normal play" perspective it's a bad idea to expand without either blink, immos, colossus coming, or phoenix - unless your opponent is doing the exact same thing. Now I say "normal play" because of course things change quite a bit in lower leagues, because other folks may not know how to "safely" do things either, so it throws a wrench in the machine.

If I were you I'd look at liquipedia or talk to some folks here, and look at options for more standard PvP play - because 3gate forge is not really one of them. Here's why:

You had no detection, at all - dt's would have gg'd you straight up.
You had no "power units" to provide you with either a threatening presence to go and possibly attack your opponent - nor any to defend yourself (as we saw at about 9 minutes)
Your follow up after your "quick expand" is incredibly slow - you won't have colo's for a while, and you basically had no vision for a while either.

In short, my humble opinion:

• Don't try and be Liquid`HerO with your scouting probe. There are bigger issues to deal with (like using chrono) than bouncing your scout around. Get in there, see if there is a gateway/forge and then gas, and then patrol it for a bit while you work on your mineral line.
• Read up on some standard builds for PvP, 3gate forge won't really work at all once you improve some of those other issues
• Make sure you are scouting correctly; if you had a probe in his nat you would have seen no expansion, and when his push was coming to get a couple of cannons up.

The interesting part about this rep is that if you had of had a couple of cannons up and defended the attack; you would have been cruising because your probe production was better than his (he had 1 probe on gas for ages too). Overall from watching the game I'd say you are slightly higher calibre than that guy, but the build let you down.

I would recommend builds but like I said I don't really play standard in PvP, so I'm sure someone else could advise

Quick Comments

	xGKingdelete:	this is good (y)
	Nemo:	Awesome !
	Oshiego:	Thanks mate.

[AceWing]

wow good job from duckville. Such a nice write up for our fellow player

[Oshiego]

1. Thanks a lot for the long explanation mate. Appreciate it a lot.
2. Are you saying that expanding in PvP is recommended after I get a tech up ? (blink,immortals,etc) or more gateways ?
3. What do you mean by using the scouting probe to patrol ? You mean once I get into his base and see everything he has, just press "P" and click on any area around his main building area ?

Thanks a lot man, really gotta work on my builds now.

[Siq]

I am having a terrible time against the pvz immortal sentry. Sometimes I crush it, sometimes it owns me like no tomorrow, but I can't really figure out what goes wrong, I feel like I'm doing the same thing.

And could anyone help by telling me more about this build? I usually go for a ling-roach approach with emphasis on many lings after droning up heavily when I see it coming.

Sometimes it comes kinda late (are these people just bad?) and sometimes a lot earlier, like in the game attached.
Example replay: http://drop.sc/242136
This guy is of course also blocking messages to him so I couldn't ask for practice against him either. I hate that feature.

I just have no idea what to do.

Problem I think in this game:
Droned a little bit too hard. Missed my potential infestation pit timing by ~25 sec.
Waaaay oversaturated on 3rd, didn't realize I had that many drones.

Question, when should I start making units when I have identified the build? Do I have time for infestors? This hit right before 12 mins.

This is master/grandmaster level for SEA.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Someone M/GM Zerg or Protoss level do it please ?

[DUCKVILLELOL]

Originally Posted by Oshiego

1. Thanks a lot for the long explanation mate. Appreciate it a lot.
2. Are you saying that expanding in PvP is recommended after I get a tech up ? (blink,immortals,etc) or more gateways ?
3. What do you mean by using the scouting probe to patrol ? You mean once I get into his base and see everything he has, just press "P" and click on any area around his main building area ?

Thanks a lot man, really gotta work on my builds now.

No problems, happy to help.

Essentially yes, it's very difficult to expand safely in PvP before tech; it's kind of more that I wouldn't advise it until you firmly grasp how the matchup works, and not until you can properly read your opponent. There are of course builds that have an extremely low chance of working regardless of how good you are (For example, Oz doing a nexus first in PvP at GSL... almost never going to work against a competent opponent) - but my main point is that it's not advisable to be greedy in PvP, especially when you don't have a proper pathway for what you're doing.

With all that said, like I mentioned in my other post if you can see that your opponent does something a little daring like a 1gate expand or even a nexus first; if you wanted to play a macro game you could certainly take the expo and do what you can. But I'm just thinking that it'd be hard to get a correct read on what someone is doing while doing alllllll the other things Protoss needs to do in the meantime

I'm sure the higher skilled P (who play a more standard game than I do...) will probably say that a 2gate robo, possibly 1gate robo or 3gate blink are the more standard ways to play PvP these days, and this gives you the ability to scout (blinking stalkers, or observers) so that you can see what's going on and notice that these styles all involve some of that higher tech

As for the scouting probe; yeah that's exactly it. Whenever some of my friends are getting used to the game, they will always try and be badass with the probe (and to be honest I'm not even any good at it now, and I've been playing SC for almost 7 years) - then they will forget to build probes, forget to chrono... forget a gateway... it's ugly. What I would advise to you (and any other new protoss) is that you need to find the base, see if there is a gateway, see if there is a forge, then check to see if the gas are taken; then put your probe on patrol (in a completed shape, like a square or a circle to some degree) so that it'll stay alive for a while, and you get to see what your opponent is doing.

Later on once you master general mechanical skills for opening a game like chrono/probe construction/pylon construction - then feel free to start having a play around with the scouting probe.

[AxS.Xenovia]

Hi there. this is a replay of which i won but with a bit of bitterness that i could have done better in. but i dont know what. so a few pointers

http://drop.sc/242146

and this is one which i lost and i have no idea what i did wrong minus the not spotting pylon.
http://drop.sc/242149

much appriciated

[Oshiego]

Alright that answered all my doubts. Thanks once again.

[bald_eagle]

(slight copy pasta from my thread) so I am coming to you today to discuss a somewhat imba strategy (well technically not because mirror match up) but basically it is a build that zergs do that I just can't seem to handle, essentially it is 12 extractor, 14/15 pool, 2 more drones, queen overlord.

So from this point the zerg player just continues to mass lings and banelings I only have about a 4 drone advantage, I hold it off, my drone count stays above him, I hold the lings and banelings, equal amount of resources lost, but after he is done, I start droning up again, getting tech etc. but he then ends up with about 20 drones ahead of me. Still ends up winning

I try my very best to play a safe macro game with only about a 4 drone advantage every game. YET! I still end up losing, I'm guessing I lost because I have alot of wasted tech and structures, but I found no other way to choke off the ******* banelings and lings. I would try 11 pool, however it is not a very economical choice at all. Honestly, I'm sick of losing to this strat and trying countless ways to counter it. Roaches, Fast lair, hatch with a spine in both main and nat, defensive banelings, choke points with evo chambers and spines. Nothing.... Any suggestions would be great help.

Here is link to 3 replays of the same build being used against me

http://www.mediafire.com/#p4rn7hir69t03

[ACX]

I will really appreciate any constructive criticism. I need a lot of help with my PVP, it's absolutely atrocious.

Replays:

Loss to mass zealots: http://drop.sc/243152

4 Gate warp prism fail: http://drop.sc/243153

If someone could tell me an outright counter to the mass zealots, that would be great and where I went wrong with the 4 gate warp prism.

Also, i'm curious how on earth is PvP meant to be played in general? Should I just keep it simple and play like 1 gate robo or something and macro up?

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

3 pylon wall with a mothership counters pure zealot trololol

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by CBK Himari

Hi there. this is a replay of which i won but with a bit of bitterness that i could have done better in. but i dont know what. so a few pointers

http://drop.sc/242146

and this is one which i lost and i have no idea what i did wrong minus the not spotting pylon.
http://drop.sc/242149

much appriciated

Post only defeats please and one replay at a time. Thanks.

Replay Analysis
http://fr.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/329883134

Conclusion
You did well but forgot to patrol with one marine a key part of your base. very classic Allin with blink and obs and you're dead. Only way to prevent that is to make sure to prevent that pylon along your base and have a army there to kill the obs ASAP. Be sure to let 2 bunkers at your Nat too with some SCV preparing to repair because he's going to switch from your main to your Nat in he's attack and your army won't be quick enough to defend both places.

That's the only way. The reste was OK.

[Nemo]

Someone do the Analysis for Siq please. or or iGM or .

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Siq

I am having a terrible time against the pvz immortal sentry. Sometimes I crush it, sometimes it owns me like no tomorrow, but I can't really figure out what goes wrong, I feel like I'm doing the same thing.

First of all I think your third hatch was really late because you tried to do some damage with your lings instead of taking out the pylon first. You also waited until your natural finished before starting your queen. If you start your queen from ur main you can drop a tumour and start spreading creep and still be able to inject as soon as your natural finishes.

you're right you have sooooooo many drones at your third (and in total) and you keep making drones. You go up to 80 drones when you have a good idea a sentry immortal all in is going to be coming.

remember that it's perfectly fine to sacrifice your third and fall back to ur natural with a consolidated army instead of just throwing small groups of units away constantly. A tonne of spines at your natural or even third if you built them early enough would have been good.

You get infestation pit and the energy for them but you never made any infestors if you make just 2 or 3 while you are saccing your third you can then get some nice fungals on all their sentries and then come in with your entire army


TLDR: overdronned, poor saturation. didn't have many units when the attack came. Threw away ur army in small chunks at a time. Tried to defend third when there was no chance of saving it.

To answer your question. you should start making units once you have optimal three base saturation so like 60-70 drones.
And if you buy enough time you will be able to get infestors out but I think it would be better to just not get them or their upgrade and use your resources on other things (that reminds me you are also floating a lot of resources maybe another/earlier macro hatch?)

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Nice !

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Tiger

Loss to mass zealots: http://drop.sc/243152

well you are trying to defend 3 gates worth of zealots with only 1 gate. so no matter how good your micro you will lose. A hard counter to zealots is zealots. stalkers are okish too but only if you micro really well
as soon as you scouted it you should have dropped 2 more gates (3 total) and dumped all your chronoboosts on your gateway to get your units out faster.

Your pylon wall didn't really make sense. obviously they just gonna kill your zealot then walk in. maybe if you full walled off and then went for ranged units like sentries and stalkers it would have been fine. coz with the pylons and forcefields you will buy enough time to get a critical mass of units.

Originally Posted by Tiger

4 Gate warp prism fail: http://drop.sc/243153

it was bad to move down the ramp because of the possibility of getting forcefielded. but wat was even worse was that you just move commanded the 4 zealots that got stuck at the bottom.

needed to warp in a stalker at home so you don't lose as many probes killing that stalker, and make sure that you put the workers back to mining. Also replenish your mining force. Take workers off gas since you aren't using it so you still have 16 mining minerals. Your attack then fails because not enough money.

You are pretty much dead at this point so not gonna bother watching the rest.



IMO this is what you should have done:
firstly if you were looking you would have seen the stalker enter your base at like 7:07 so could have made a stalker in your base to deal with that.
Then you had seen that he had expanded so theres a good chance that he will have his army down the ramp at his natural. So you could have warped in a sentry with your first warp in. Then just camped at the top of his ramp killing those 4 pylons, the cyber core the gateway etc. until he tries to attack you. Then you just forcefielded the ramp and sandwich with zealots.

Even after your zealots got trapped. You could have warped in sentries with ur next warp in and kill all his stuff while you trapped him outside his own base with forcefields.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Thanks Aequitas for the analysis
	ACX:	Thanks aeq! :)

[Dexterique]

Hello everyone, I'm a Diamond Protoss player and I'm here to seek guidance from fellow humans of this planet we all call, Earth. At 1700HR +8GMT my Protoss fleet encountered 2 Zerg players that decided to Hatch 1st at my natural expo on Daybreak (Both games are played on Daybreak) while laddering.

Aiur has never bestow me with the knowledge to defend my base when faced with such trickery by the Zergs.

Below are the 2 replays are the build that Zerg did.

http://drop.sc/243436

http://drop.sc/243438

Any critism, help and guidance is much appreciated.

-Dex

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Dexterique

Hello everyone, I'm a Diamond Protoss player and I'm here to seek guidance from fellow humans of this planet we all call, Earth. At 1700HR +8GMT my Protoss fleet encountered 2 Zerg players that decided to Hatch 1st at my natural expo on Daybreak (Both games are played on Daybreak) while laddering.

Aiur has never bestow me with the knowledge to defend my base when faced with such trickery by the Zergs.

Below are the 2 replays are the build that Zerg did.

http://drop.sc/243436

http://drop.sc/243438

Any critism, help and guidance is much appreciated.

-Dex

don't have time to watch the replay, but the way to beat it is to not let it happen in the first place. If you are scouting after pylon for a FFE, you should see his drone moving across the map. As soon as you see this, go forge first and leave the probe there. When he tries to put the hatch down, you have to get a second probe, block the hatchery, and chase the drone away.

If he does manage to get the hatch down, build 2 cannons near it and continue with your FFE. Things are going to be delayed for you, but things are also going to be delayed for him, so it evens out in the end.

Sometimes you can even cannon rush his natural since he won't have a spawning pool.

Maybe someone who actually watches the replay might want to add on to this


aiur fighting

Quick Comments

Dexterique:

Thanks! I'll watch out for that early scouting drone next time and remember to put a probe down at the nat for standby.

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Dexterique

http://drop.sc/243438

pulling half your mineral line is definitely not the right thing to do.
neither is your weird out of range cannon rush.
If a zerg proxy hatches ur natural and sends another drone, make sure you follow it and see what's up.

so as delete said it's good to stop it but if he does get it down just drop your forge and gateway down too. don't bother attacking the hatchery with workers, they can just cancel and you will be so far behind.
just continue on as if you are opening one base: get your gas get your core you will actually get a really fast warpgate. so you should try and do a nice warpgate timing attack.

instead of trying to cannon rush him you should have continued scouting with your probe, seen that there was no expansion so make sure that he isn't making a hatch in your main. and a couple more cannons at the front to hold off the roaches if he goes for your front.

Quick Comments

Dexterique:

Thanks! Will not over-react next time

[Theend]

Originally Posted by Dexterique

Hello everyone, I'm a Diamond Protoss player and I'm here to seek guidance from fellow humans of this planet we all call, Earth. At 1700HR +8GMT my Protoss fleet encountered 2 Zerg players that decided to Hatch 1st at my natural expo on Daybreak (Both games are played on Daybreak) while laddering.

Aiur has never bestow me with the knowledge to defend my base when faced with such trickery by the Zergs.

Below are the 2 replays are the build that Zerg did.

http://drop.sc/243436

http://drop.sc/243438

Any critism, help and guidance is much appreciated.

-Dex

Originally Posted by xGKingdelete

don't have time to watch the replay, but the way to beat it is to not let it happen in the first place. If you are scouting after pylon for a FFE, you should see his drone moving across the map. As soon as you see this, go forge first and leave the probe there. When he tries to put the hatch down, you have to get a second probe, block the hatchery, and chase the drone away.

If he does manage to get the hatch down, build 2 cannons near it and continue with your FFE. Things are going to be delayed for you, but things are also going to be delayed for him, so it evens out in the end.

Sometimes you can even cannon rush his natural since he won't have a spawning pool.

Maybe someone who actually watches the replay might want to add on to this

This basically sum up most of the part.
From what i have seen from the replay.

For game 1: dex was out macroed (by far a lot) and bad micro (the voids could have won the game)

For game 2: Not being alert to the drone in his base and the badly placed cannon rush caused him the game

Quick Comments

Dexterique:

Thanks! The hatch 1st really threw me off

[jayaiwhy]

A ZvZ, I won but was wondering what I could improve on if anyone could tell me

http://drop.sc/243865

Quick Comments

	mGGAequitas:	if you won, you played perfectly fine.
	Snx.Mufasa:	There are things you can look at to improve even if you win : )

[Nemo]

I think we left some replay to analyse behind. Guys I'm sorry we did. It's now too old to be usefull for analyse but post fresh replays, I promise all we be analysed by sunday evening !