[Masterfuzzy]

I think its somewhat balanced, though sometimes one race will have a slight advantage over the other. People complain about balance after a patch because the strategies of the previous patch are no longer effective. Once people learn new build orders to deal with it, then you can determine things as OP or balanced.

[cruxSpoon]

When you start a race discussion this broad, its important to set parameters. First you have to define what OP is and then compare the races to that definition. For example, OP can basically just be potential of the race vs potential + skill level required. It could be as specific to the current macro metagame or as broad as including cheese. Then there are BoX series where certain races will be more "OP" in a longer BoX series due to sneakiness, build variations, etc. - All of this is just a "keep in mind" when talking about balance, since it is something that can get very heated very fast and usually because people argue from different standpoints of OP without realising it, causing a frustrating misunderstanding.

My thoughts!

In theory just head to head I think the game is fairly balanced. I feel however that the disparity in race winnings has to do with a few things (most already mentioned in this thread). I'll be mostly talking in reference to Terran as that is what I play

1. Skill level required - Terran is hardest but balanced on a few fronts
a) Most micro required, but most rewarding. Where Terran used to outmicro zergs with just splits vs mutaling, terran now has to split and dodge fungals which nullify micro, hard but doable. Against protoss where it used to be just kite, now that storms are fancy they have to be dodged too (and protoss are getting damn good at storming) as well as make sure not to get caught in forcefields. Of course it takes great micro on the other races to fungal and ff (not to take anything away).

b) Terran rely on timings to get ahead in midgame in order to be going to lategame on equal footing. These timings once scouted are generally held off. In TvZ a smart zerg can read a build and react to it with no 'real' loss to their current build. Same thing with protoss. When terran moves across the map, its spotted with obs/lings/overlords prompting plenty of time for both races to position and respond (applies in all matchups, not just terran). My point is, the reason terran have seen alot of success (the terran OP era) is that the builds the employ weren't figured out, now that they have been, it becomes player vs player skill (balanced!). I do feel however that in the metagame Terran is a bit behind now and therefore UP. Things that were seen in BW not apparent in current metagame is actively denying scouting. You'd see boxer turret his entire base to let no obs in, so he can do his legendary ghost/medvac/nuke/emp with vessel strats. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information. I feel Terran will start doing strats soon that leave the other races more in the dark, its like poker, it has to happen. (ZOMG what a rant, I think point made) TLDR: Terran need to hide intention abit more to get do well against Z and P who know how to deal with strats once scouted.

2. Macro Terran = More planning = Better execution required
a) I guess this bit could go in skill required too, but I put seperate cause it speaks more to race design. This is one of the reasons Terran FEELS UP (isn't UP though). All races require planning of strategy etc, however, Terran is the least forgiving I feel when you get it wrong. This conversation can get REALLY indepth so a proviso is I will just talk about game plan and buildings required. You can really go indepth with gas timings, expansion timings, attack timings, etc, but you guys would probably hate reading this wall of text. Ok new section cause this para is big!

b) Building/unit planning - For zerg its put one building down and make units out of hatcheries, simple right? You can make 6 mutas ro 36 off one spire. For protoss its a lil more complicated, they need more gateways but they can warp in any variety they want on the fly allowing you to adapt to the current situation. Terran can kinda do this to an extent with choice between marauders and marines. However, that requires the Terran to have a few rax's with techlabs, which hinders marine production. Instantly there is a trade off. For example, in TvP MKP goes 2 reactors and 1 tech lab, collosus build owns this (generally), If terran plans MKP build and protoss hides collosus tech well, then terran is in worse positiong than if he went 2 techlabs and 1 reactor (MKP for vs HT/Charge opening). Midgame I feel this is something all races face. I guess my point is, when terran has to switch tech, it takes longer than the other races. Lategame protoss - warp ins a different composition (minus collosus), zerg - press s and build whatever (cost of ultra cavern/greater spire), terran - lift and rebuild more techlabs/reactors, add starports to deal with air (should be doing it anyway imo lategame), Add more facts (TvZ), again should be doing anyways but is harder to plan than other races (even in TvT!). In response to a timing push when scouted protoss can warp in more stalkers (vs marine heavy) vs sentry/zealot (poor example but you get my point lol). Zerg might see a marauder hellion push coming and decide to mass ling or a few roaches depending on marauder count to deal with hellions etc. Terran have...well what they have lol. I think im going in circles now.

c) Resources required - Food for thought, terran buildings are more gas intensive due to addons required and the need for multiple facts/starports. Not going to discuss as this can get really indepth (I dont feel its an imbalance since other things offset this cost, also protoss tech very expensive etc).

Conclude you fool! - I dont think ANY races is OP atm, the things i've pointed out above are why I feel terran is suffering at the moment in their respective matchups. You'll find that skilled terrans can accomplish all those things (MKP, IMMVP, etc). I also feel at the extreme highest levels of play (probably that which we haven't seen yet) skill vs race abuse (for lack of better term) will converge and it really will be player vs player rather than race vs player. The metagame is always evolving and Terran are currently behind as Zergs and Protoss have started leaning to more "catch-all" builds. The game is young and it can only get better from here. Terran now need to evolve to the next level, and get their pa-pa-pa pokerfaces on!

Spoon out

[Chappo]

PvP late game is balanced, diverse and fun.
That is all that matters

Quick Comments

	|Erasmus|:	I suppose having a higher colossus count can be considered fun...
	FsDronesInJail:	That's some twisted, sick way of having fun

[Stallion]

I dislike balance threads as i look at this game and anytime i lose i go i lost not this race is ******* op etc which is what these threads lead to.

Having said that balance wise I think the game is balancedish minus some small problems. I find protoss is the worst designed race atm with good tech late game and no real early game harrassment unit. a lot of protoss strategies revolve around turtling to 3 base and getting those heavy tech units. For example I'm getting to the point with my macro I'm kinda just cruising macro wise and looking for cute harassment techniques to force a few extra lings or an extra bunker but its not really harassment when you compare it to how much damage hellions can do. Terran get a lot of crap because of the early days with 60 damage siege tanks etc that were op but i think they have been nerfed to the point the game is balanced and playing terran is now how well can you multitask with multiple drops and pushes at same time with spilting etc while macroing. Zerg are easy to see as overpowered in the sea community as the top players all seem to play it but i don't think thats the case. I just think zerg can counter protoss harrassment too easily and with ferrarilords shouldn't ever not have the right scouting information. idk too much about tvz but the mass queens thing and droning makes it start to feel like pvz in harrasment that doesn't kill a hatch seems pointless.

just my thoughts

Quick Comments

FLuX:

+1 for Ferrarilords

[VB_Rhuubarb]

I have no problems with the balance of any of the matchups. Just some of them can be somewhat boring/stupid in some portions of the game.

PvZ: When it devolves into Mothership (Archon) vs Broodlord/Infestor.
PvP: Late game colossus wars

But I'm hopeful that the tempest in HotS will change the dynamic of both those matchups. Even if its only role is to counter Colossus/Broods.

[Feddonator]

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine"
- Scissors

Quick Comments

iVnStinger:

LOL

[ETL.ViTaL]

I think p v p is overpowered for Protoss

[Ghosty]

Originally Posted by Feddonator

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine"
- Scissors

I found this quite funny x)

[Flaunt]

Zerg is ridiculously overpowered. We'll see a patch as soon as WCS is finished .

[Champi]

Creep dissipates way too slowly. an overlord can delay a third for far too long if it has fully saturated the area in creep.

the lategame between protoss and zerg is bad imo, too many times is the game is decided on an engagement between infestor broodlord, and mothership stalker archon

its not racially imbalanced, because either side can win, but the fact that it all depends on whether or not the vortex lands over all the broodlords to toilet them is in my opinion, a flawed and broken designed end game (looking forward to this being changed in HotS)

TvP is interesting, i think its balanced because it seems to me like a sea saw in terms of imbalance, in the early game i think terran has an advantage, in the mid game i think its balanced, in the late game i think protoss has the advantage, and then in the ultra late game the advantage returns to terran after they get mass orbitals and sack all but their gas scvs for mules to create a true 200/200 max army


I cant comment on TvZ as i have no knowlege or experience, but it looks pretty hard for terran since the queen buff to the untrained eye, again just due to creep. since hellions can no longer manage it, and the speed of which zergs spread it has multiplied by about 4x since they open with 4 queens now.


so to conclude i think the game is pretty amazingly balanced, with the exception of creep. i would like to see it dissipate much faster.

and i think HotS will shake up the matchups with the new units and mechanics so things like lategame pvz dont actually bother me as i know its only a matter of time before such things change.

[FaDe'Shampoo]

everything pretty balance imo

[faithHunter]

Only complaint I have right now is lategame TvP. They just can easily defend against drops in the midgame by warping in stalkers and units, and it just snowballs to the lategame where they can just warp in 20+ units in a middle of a battle. Not saying that they're imbalanced or anything. The deathball and their ability to reinforce in like 3 seconds and instantly getting into position is just really really tough to deal with as Terran.

Also, I simply cannot bear seeing my MMM army get melted away by 2 collosi in midgame TvP. :<

Welp, time to think of some stupidly powerful marine scv all in to use in TvP

Also, I feel as in the Queen buff wasn't really neccesary in TvZ. Zergs can already defend against hellion pressure with spines and walling off the entrance to the natural with queens and evo chambers. And if the hellion count gets out of control, 3-4 roaches should be able to defend against them and force them to ditch your base and creep.

One more thing: Tier 3 Terran units and Ravens - why u so useless :<

[Hijung]

I think it's rather balanced as it is, but I think Terran needs a buff or two, even as a Zerg I find ZvT the least-worrying match up of the four (inc. random) because it's been so explored and it's been played so much..

I don't know specifically in what department they need a buff in, I like the HotS idea of the new spidermine-esque units, but I think the execution of them are poor.

That, or Terran hasn't been explored fully yet. Which is remarkable, considering their previous position. Perhaps it's just their turn to be 'That' race. Zerg had a lot of it in the early history of Sc2, Protoss had a large period of being the 'UP' race, where 1/1/1 was simply not winnable..

So, unless it's virtually impossible to beat Zerg now, I think people need to stop doing fast hellion marine pushes/expansions, or expand upon it a bit, add something else into it. I don't know.

On the subject of Zerg, I like the race the way it is at the moment. Units are fragile early game, infestors are equal to marines as the best units in the game,

[Satu]

Of course the races aren't balanced, its an asymmetrical game, but they are getting it as close as possible to balanced. Atm, I think they are getting close to being as balanced as they will be able to ever make the game.

[Nemo]

I'm impressed at seing a thread about balance staying civil, mature and interesting. WP guys !

[NDG.Stitch]

I absolutely agree with what Light is saying.

I think Terran as I play it, is a very hard race to play. You have to play almost flawless games against Zerg to possibly win in a macro game. Definitely agree with a very informative explanation of TvP as well. I agree that there is so many different variations of TvP early game that is hard for Protoss to hold, but late game TvP is just really hard to play.

Terran is just very micro intensive and also requires a very high level of mechanics such as multitasking to be successful with it.

So I think the game isn't really balanced at an average players level, but on a high level it does seem balanced.

[Easy]

Zerg is okay in all the matchups
Protoss too
Terran has trouble in TvZ and TvP-
I feel like they need a reaper buff or some new openning to do on TvZ since the queen buff reactor helion is just for mapcontrol and third denial untill he moves out with the queens and rapes all your helions
And in TvP, even though I´m not a terran I think its just freaking OP that they can have 30 zealots warp in their base to defend a counter attack. You cant base race and most of the times it feels like you cant engage. But on the Early-mid game terran has the advantage.
So as far as i know its just trying to use your good stuff as much as possible

[ToRSpookToR]

i disagree my entire late game TvP is having 10 medivacs drop 5 different places as soon as toss moves out being maxed they have to come back and defend

[TN.Fitz]

I'd say no for TvZ. Currently with the new buff to queens it really negates any kind of early pressure from Terran. Zerg is now doing these 6 to 4 queen builds they can take expands without being punished, and spread the creep like no way they could before. The popular reactor hellions now no longer works because of increased range and because queens are so powerful now hellions only work in mass numbers. Banshees are even worse now because there are more queens on the map then there has every been before. Reapers now no longer work for the same reason as hellions do not work.

Terrans are struggling to figure out how to deal with this new build from Zergs. I think it is imbalanced for the time being but that is because Terran's have yet to actually deal with this new threat. Like what the GSL caster Artosis says "This will all go away in two weeks when Terran's figure out how to deal with this new zerg"

It almost feels like a super early BW hydra IMO. I mean they have the range and speed. These things are literally becoming the backbone of Zerg early early game armies. I'm really not sure if that was the intended use of the queen but it is sure what it seems to becoming.

I think this new patch gives Zergs a little too much freedom right now but that is not subject to change when the new builds come through. I wonder if the new attack range should be a cheap essential upgrade such as warp gate for toss. Make the upgrade long enough for Terran's to be able to harass somewhat. I mean if you go back to BW the Hydra was super powerful...when BOTH of its upgrades were done. Now here I purpose the same thing except for the queen.

Feel free to disagree with me however.

[TN.Fitz]

Originally Posted by SatuSPR

Of course the races aren't balanced, its an asymmetrical game, but they are getting it as close as possible to balanced. Atm, I think they are getting close to being as balanced as they will be able to ever make the game.

That I have to disagree with. It sounds like you think the game will never be balanced. You have to consider Brood War. Same three distinctive races and it ended up balanced but yea for sure SC2 CURRENTLY is not balanced.