[xGKingdelete]

Hello, guys. First thread!

Ever since the very beginning, there has been one question we have all asked, but no matter how hard all the scholars and philosophers pondered, none could find an answer. I think we all know what the question is (well the title kind of gave it away). How 2 beat mutas?


What people often do is defend until they get blink, defend until they get high templar, defend until they get psi storm and archons, try to secure a third base, and move out. The problem with this is that as soon as they move out, there are mutas and zerglings in their main and zerglings, and if they pull back to defend, the damage has already been done. So the players end up base trading.

The problem with base trading is that high templar are so slow. By the time you take out their natural and main, you've already lost yours. And you still have to deal with their 5 hidden bases. Also, since you're getting high templar and archons from high templar, you're gas starved. The army composition is mainly zealots archons and high templar, which don't fare very well against 30 spine crawlers. And if the zerg player decides to switch to roaches, you just get rolled.

Oh, I forgot what happens when there isn't a base trade - when the protoss turtles forever on 3 bases. Eventually, the zerg player seems to be sloppy with their mutas and you kill all of them. And it's the best feeling in the world. You decide to move out, and it turns out he was just sacrificing them to get more supply for the 20 broodlords and 20 infestors in the middle of the map.


Now, I'm aware that this is all theory. Games are all situational, and they all end differently. Sometimes the protoss wins through some miracle. But still, about 80% of the games I've watched or played involving mutas end with the protoss losing. Obviously, whatever we are doing now isn't working.

So what do we do?

1) The in-game tech tree tells us that carriers hard counter mutalisks.
...

2) Double stargate phoenix with +1 air upgrade
This is one possible way. If the protoss player can get 4-5 phoenix early enough, mutalisks are completely shut down. That's an "if", though. If the zerg has speedlings, the first scout the protoss player will get is going to be an observer or a hallucinated phoenix. Sometimes by the time the spire is scouted, it's too late.
Also, going double stargate and chronoboosting out phoenix slows the growth of the gateway army a lot, so the zerg will still have control of the ground. And it's a lot easier for the zerg to tech switch than the protoss.

But still, phoenix are good against zerg. Double stargate is definitely an option.

3) Kill the zerg before mutas get out.
I've seen all-ins work, but if the zerg player sees it coming, there are usually enough spines to hold and the protoss player is very very behind.

4) Somehow tweak what we already do until it works
This is what I've been trying to do. Problem solving.

Problem: psi storm and archons-from-high-templar take a lot of resources and time to get, especially considering we may want to leave some high templar and/or archons back at home to defend the mineral line.
Solution: maybe we won't get psi storm and archons-from-high-templar.

Problem: when we finally get our high templar with enough energy, high templar are slow and make base-racing difficult.
Solution: yep, no more high templar

Problem: high templar and psi storm take a tonne of gas, forcing us to have a zealot-heavy army, and while mass zealots are good against zerglings, they don't shoot up and they don't kill a wall of spine crawlers (neither do high templar).
Solution: sorry, high templar

Problem: it's very hard to put pressure back on the zerg. We're contained. Often, taking a third base is almost impossible.
Solution: double forge for upgrades. Since we won't be moving out for a while, we'll have plenty of time to get these upgrades. Also, both attack and armour upgrades are good against mutalisks and zerglings.
Solution: put pressure back on the zerg so we can take our third before he comes back to harass. But how will we do this?

Dark templar.
Dark templar cost 125/125. They are equally demanding in both resources, so we won't have an excess off minerals.
They can still be morphed into archons, which are a must-have against muta/ling.
They force the mutas and zerglings back to defend, allowing us to take a third.
If we're lucky, they'll kill a tonne of drones and/or snipe an expansion.

But most importantly, dark templar are unbelievably good in base-race scenarios. Zergs tend to win by building hatcheries all over the map while bace-racing. One patrolling dark templar can lock down two or even three expansions. And once the zerg player loses their main, they won't have any overseers (unless they smartly get a second lair somewhere else), and overseers are relatively slow and hard to use anyway.


So that's what I'll be trying out from now on (oh no, you're all going to metagame me on the ladder now).
-double forge and rush to blink straight away.
-dark shrine as soon as possible
-use dts to put pressure back on the zerg and take a third while that's going on
-mass up as large an army as possible (including unmorphed dark templar)
-move out, bringing probes if possible.
-Have dark templar patrolling potential hidden expansions


I'll attach a replay I from this morning, a game I played on NA. I had 1.1k minerals and several probes at the end, but I ended up losing because I was just retarded and didn't build anything. But If I did build that pylon, I would have won.

Oh, and also I'm undecided on whether to get immortals or not. They cost the same as two stalkers, they're terrible against lings and don't shoot up, but they destroy buildings very very fast. If it's a classic bace race, there won't be an engagement between the armies anyway.



So... what do you guys think?

Quick Comments

	TATheMoonStar:	i will also be trying this, i like ur points and ideas and i think phoenix to snipe overseers and give mutas something other than probes to kill is an epic sc2 bisu build idea
	ZiggyD:	DT pressure and base race ideas are good. I will be playing with this.
	FvRsolis:	it's how I defeat ling/muta.. The 25 gas really adds up over time!

[Stallion]

Hi Delete recently ive had the same problem but have somewhat solved it for i've started to use a phenox style which is pretty much you forge/gate expand into stargte then get 2 phenox void ray harrass. Into 5 phenox just so you have a good number if he is going muta so you can kill them you can also harras with these if he isn't. At the same time getting your robo and colos behind it to counter the hydra style play. If you see the zerg still going muta you add the second stage and pump more phenox while getting +1 air attack. I've also taken to getting shields +1 before ground armour +1 as this covers the phenox too if they go muta. The build requires a lot of good micro macro but is imo the best PvZ style out there. The mid game of this . if they havnt gone mutas , they generally make a lot of curropters and hydras assuming you have a void colo army. To counter this style i get storm and just go colo gate way heavy so i can forcefield off pull back snipe the curropters as best i can and if he overextends i storm. If you vs someone who still goes heavy muta and you counter with dual stargate phenox the switch is into ultras. My solution to this style is to get high templar off 3 base and storm as you can storm archon whatever for vs ultras. The other style is infestors but thats just like the curropter hydra type unit comps and to that i go double robo colos into hts. I'll upload some replays soon if wanted but i feel this is the best pvz build at the moment and am actually feeling confident in pvz now even heading into top 50 gm. Any questions on the build feel free to harrass me.

As a side note the other good thing about this build is it can come after the +1 zealot attack still if you forge expand.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

[Xeen]

Get a third, turtle on three bases with blink/storm, get mothership and go win. 99% of beating mutaling is taking your third and keeping from taking too much economical damage in the process.

As long as you have saturated 3 bases, he's not getting more money than you, so max out and win because mutas suck in straight battle vs stalker/archon/storm/etc

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by Xeen

Get a third, turtle on three bases with blink/storm, get mothership and go win.

As long as you have saturated 3 bases, he's not getting more money than you, so max out and win because mutas suck in straight battle vs stalker/archon/storm/etc

yea i was testing this before the trouble with it is you vs the top zergs with good control and they own you with 2 control group mutas and its hard to get to the mothership stage and to get the vortex off also the fact by then they can just remacro it straight out as they take 5 million bases behind it

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by Xeen

Get a third, turtle on three bases with blink/storm, get mothership and go win. 99% of beating mutaling is taking your third and keeping from taking too much economical damage in the process.

As long as you have saturated 3 bases, he's not getting more money than you, so max out and win because mutas suck in straight battle vs stalker/archon/storm/etc

I just don't like this style (although I've never tried getting mothership, maybe it works). It just takes so much time, and I find that by the time I move out they've already transitioned into a deathball of their own, backed up by their strong economy.

@stallion, I've seen you do it and I might try that opening some time

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by delete12

I just don't like this style (although I've never tried getting mothership, maybe it works). It just takes so much time, and I find that by the time I move out they've already transitioned into a deathball of their own, backed up by their strong economy.

@stallion, I've seen you do it and I might try that opening some time

yea the problem with the mothership way is its VERY passive and you have to wait ages for the mothership i just find that new style im doing works better would you like replays? or stream enough?

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by cruxStallion

Hi Delete recently ive had the same problem but have somewhat solved it for i've started to use a phenox style which is pretty much you forge/gate expand into stargte then get 2 phenox void ray harrass. Into 5 phenox just so you have a good number if he is going muta so you can kill them you can also harras with these if he isn't. At the same time getting your robo and colos behind it to counter the hydra style play. If you see the zerg still going muta you add the second stage and pump more phenox while getting +1 air attack. I've also taken to getting shields +1 before ground armour +1 as this covers the phenox too if they go muta. The build requires a lot of good micro macro but is imo the best PvZ style out there. The mid game of this . if they havnt gone mutas , they generally make a lot of curropters and hydras assuming you have a void colo army. To counter this style i get storm and just go colo gate way heavy so i can forcefield off pull back snipe the curropters as best i can and if he overextends i storm. If you vs someone who still goes heavy muta and you counter with dual stargate phenox the switch is into ultras. My solution to this style is to get high templar off 3 base and storm as you can storm archon whatever for vs ultras. The other style is infestors but thats just like the curropter hydra type unit comps and to that i go double robo colos into hts. I'll upload some replays soon if wanted but i feel this is the best pvz build at the moment and am actually feeling confident in pvz now even heading into top 50 gm. Any questions on the build feel free to harrass me.

As a side note the other good thing about this build is it can come after the +1 zealot attack still if you forge expand.

I've been working on a similar style too.. works really well - the voids and Phoenix force Hydra - then a tech switch to Colo is very powerful behind this. As the Hydra tech usually means the Spire tech is delayed - so they sometimes are a bit late on Corruptors and you can hit a pretty sweet timing.

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by cruxStallion

yea the problem with the mothership way is its VERY passive and you have to wait ages for the mothership i just find that new style im doing works better would you like replays? or stream enough?

stream is enough

the only thing is, my style involves around getting the robo units early and relying on them. I tried it just then and the guy went 3 hatch before lair, with plenty of queens for defense, so I couldn't do any significant damage, only killed some overlords and drones. The delay to the robo delayed when I could pressure him with my ground army, and take my third, so he just out macroed me.

but I'll work on it. just gotta get the void ray out fast enough to delay his third, and things should go well.

[nGenLight]

What Xeen said, the timining for the third is usually 9 minutes (Hallu Phoenix or Phoenix flies over base at 8:xxish to determine what hes doing), build up a deathball, HT cannons for defense and go - This is the most solid way. Or, do a big 2 base timing attack before Mutas can get to your main since your complaining about macro play.

[dippa]

god that pika-naruto avatar is so cute.

i miss you ray :'(

Quick Comments

asdfSchnitzel:

[Stallion]

it is indeed. ht cannons in theory work but generally its hard to react and storm in the right location fast enough and every ht u leave in a base is one less i just cant seem to get it to work hence the change in style for me

[nGenLight]

It works great, build more cannons, control your HT better, use some archon toilets with your mothership, use more recalls. an HT is only 2 food, leave like 3 on each mineral line and go. What you don't think you can bust the Zergs shitty Muta/Ling defense when you have 18 less food. You are Protoss, you shouldn't be losing any straight up fights.

What me and Xeen described is the most solid way, I've tried many different ways to play Muta/Ling and it always came back to perfecting this micro and macro of a longer game for the safest win. Stop going "urk, I can't do that, I'm gonna do somethign else!" and just do it buddy. Jokes, go invent your own style, be an innovator xD

Quick Comments

	TASlowHands:	Protoss hero indeed :)
	SLCN.NXZ:	Light you are so good <3 also if you see smile4ngel/brendon tell him Nxz says hi

[Stallion]

haha yea i find the phenox way easier personally i always just seem to like kill his mutas with any other style and still get into a base race situation and still lose i just found it really disheartening i mean its probably me being bad but i just like taking base race off the table. T_T im sorry im not pro like you light T_T when you coming back to show protoss the ways on sea?

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	Your not base racing, you don't push out until you can secure your production/mining.
	SLCN.NXZ:	Toss don't realise mutas are actually terribad vs mutas, you need aoe to kill them

[TAXanT]

Something I've had trouble with for some time. Watched Artosis's stream the other day and he handled it perfectly by basically doing what light said. Few high templar and cannons at minerals then pushing out. I also encourage any protoss player to check out his stream, is in-depth analysis is fantastic.

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

+1 for Artosis stream