[ToRMaverick]

I am trying to get my head around the maths of a pure macro style game vs say someone who cuts probes and does a hard push....

I presume the theory would be that you would have a superior army for a short period if you stopped your macro style game and just built up your army with the income you had. The question is what is the better style of game? Which one gives you more wins on the ladder? Bearing in mind I am in Silver not GM or Masters....

It seems everyone can now play SC2 to some degree and have learn enough builds / timing pushes to make life rather difficult for macro syle play in the lower leagues.

A majority of people have commented on my game and have suggested I just need to keep up my macro but this isnt producing the results on the ladder like I would expect. More often than not I am hit with timing pushes over and over again. Is this what I should be doing? Scatch that... should I have this up my sleeve?

Next question would be what are some of the better timing pushes used for protoss.... I have tried with a push when say +1 hits but not really gifting me a lot of wins.

Lets presume the scouting is done and the unit composition is correct... my micro is obviously not at GM level but neither is my opponents.

WHAT SAY YOU?

[Bash]

I'm pretty sure the grandmaster manual has Answers to most of that.... hint hint

In lower leagues everyone is more comfortable ending the game early-midgame, definitely learn to incorporate a few timing pushes/early attacks/even some "Cheesy builds" into your playstyle, they'll help you immensely.
4 Gates are still nice to mix in, but people will hate you, i usually try to push with my fisrt few stalkers, and then when my collosus/tech hits.

As far as when to stop Playing a macro style i'd have no idea, i'm not quite good enough to answer that. ♥

[JoFritzMD]

Against zerg I used to do a ffe into 7gate +1 push. Not a single zerg stopped it till I started hitting platinum zergs and I am terrible at this game. I didn't even have sentries with my push, pure stalker with zealots added in when I ran out of gas.

[ToRMaverick]

Originally Posted by Bash

I'm pretty sure the grandmaster manual has Answers to most of that.... hint hint

Yeah... I was going to wait until I had won the free subscription from the Community Ladder. I wanted to know the answers beforehand! :P

Quick Comments

AsylumofSouls:

[ROOT`iaguz]

Having extra workers doesn't kick in til much later in a game. If you cut workers at, say, 46 and play another game where you don't cut workers until 70 then you'll notice the 46 worker player can still make almost as much units as a 70 worker player. However once the game hits the 15 or so minute mark the player with 70 probes will have a massive advantage.

Being a silver leaguer though, the mechanics of you and your opponents are terrible enough that your macro isn't that great anyway. This isn't a problem about having too many workers, it's a problem with sloppy execution. You can only get through that with sufficient practice.

For Protoss, in TvP anyway, Probe cutting is generally used as part of a heavy gateway timing, typically an all in strategy. The classic example is 4 gate, where probes are cut at 20, but for a 2 base 6 gate all in you can cut at like 35 or smth.

Zerg also do worker cutting. the DRG ZvT Roach/ling/bane usually cuts at like 35 or 38 drones and then just goes pure units until the Terran is dead.

Quick Comments

PiG:

[ToRMaverick]

Originally Posted by JoFritzMD

Against zerg I used to do a ffe into 7gate +1 push. Not a single zerg stopped it till I started hitting platinum zergs and I am terrible at this game. I didn't even have sentries with my push, pure stalker with zealots added in when I ran out of gas.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I presume you cut probes when you pushed... hit his base with a good army and the rest is history.

Are there any decent build orders to follow for this to get the timings down? Most BO are just the initial builds then its up to you to macro the rest.

[ToRMaverick]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

Having extra workers doesn't kick in til much later in a game. If you cut workers at, say, 46 and play another game where you don't cut workers until 70 then you'll notice the 46 worker player can still make almost as much units as a 70 worker player. However once the game hits the 15 or so minute mark the player with 70 probes will have a massive advantage.

Could you elaborate a bit on this.... most of the time the games are over before the 3rd is taken in silver. Working this in reverse and presuming the games are on 2 base only... there isnt really much of an advantage to having more probes then....unless the games go into 15+ minutes? I would have thought the player who stops at say 32 probes (16 per base) and just builds an army up is at an advantage compared to the macro player who has just spent like another 800 - 1000 minerals on an additional 16 - 20 probes to saturate his minerals (less what ever those probes harvest in that time?).

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

Being a silver leaguer though, the mechanics of you and your opponents are terrible enough that your macro isn't that great anyway. This isn't a problem about having too many workers, it's a problem with sloppy execution. You can only get through that with sufficient practice.

Fair comment but both players are basically the same skill level so bad mechanics and all wouldnt the non macro player be at the advantage?

[JoFritzMD]

Originally Posted by ToRMaverick

This is exactly what I am talking about. I presume you cut probes when you pushed... hit his base with a good army and the rest is history.

Are there any decent build orders to follow for this to get the timings down? Most BO are just the initial builds then its up to you to macro the rest.

I just do this FFE: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...%28vs._Zerg%29
I don't take any gases in my expansion. I couldn't say exactly how many probes I get but once my main base has 3 in each gas and about 16 on minerals and my second base is probably just under good saturation on minerals I stop making probes. I had all chrono boost on probes up until my preferred saturation though

Again I can't really say when I get my 6 extra gates, it's just when I have enough minerals for the first extra gateway while building probes at both nexus and stalkers out of first gateway. Then I throw them all down at once.

I get my +1 after sentry (I lied I get a single sentry). In terms of units i'll get a zealot first to block the whole in my wall then a stalker to kill any overlords, then a sentry, then all stalkers.

You should be trying to get a pylon up on their side of the map relatively early (before warp gate finishes lol) and +1 can finish as you're moving up their ramp. You should be able to have the first round all stalkers, then about half stalker half zealot after that.

It's probably a pretty bad build and I probably explained it terribly but as I said it beat every zerg up to platinum for me.

[ToRMaverick]

@ JoFritzMD

This sounds OK but throwing all the gates down at once sounds a little risky... only 1 gate to produce units out of before this... what about any early aggression from him? Is a single cannon enough with FF?

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by ToRMaverick

@ JoFritzMD

This sounds OK but throwing all the gates down at once sounds a little risky... only 1 gate to produce units out of before this... what about any early aggression from him? Is a single cannon enough with FF?

wall, cannon, and a sentry or two are enough to defend if you scout a no-gas into double expand from the zerg. This is because no gas means they will only have slow zerglings, and NO banelings or roaches for a long time.

If you scout gas, then you have to be a bit more careful, but a few cannons and sentries are usually enough to hold, especially on safer FFE maps such as shakuras.

...

unrelated to the macro thing, but it's a thing you should know anyway

[JoFritzMD]

I have never had a zerg try to bust me, they have always tried to go for the early third. You're not too long on the one gateway either. The extra ones go up pretty much as soon as you can afford to produce out of them. I've had them finish when warpgate finishes with my first warpin at my forward pylon.

Now that I think about it, if anyone had've gone for a roach bust i would have lost most likely.

[pRoEpsilon]

Well if your doing a timing push like a + 2 blink 7 gate blink stalkers off 2 base then cut probes about 47-50. Just calculate probe mining from the minerals ONLY from the 2 bases. Then stop once you hit saturation point which is about 2 probe per patch. Just do a square box select and if there are 2 rows of 8 probes or a bit more is fine on each base then your good.

[x5.NotoriouS]

Since ur in gold it is best to just focusing on macro every game (ie always building probes) rather than trying to practice thin timing attacks ect...

[ToRMaverick]

Well since posting this I have tried several tactics including macro games and hard pushes. To be honest the pushes have given me more wins than any other.

I believe the reasons for this are just the pure aggression involved... my macro games are not aggressive and allow my opponent to macro or do what ever he wants. This is probably a major reason why my macro style games are not so good at the moment.

For me to improve my macro games I need to incorprate more scouting and react accordingly and also apply pressure (or percieved pressure) throughout the game.

For me anyway, is interesting that hard pushes give better results on ladder than macro style games.... prob just a fact that other BSGs cant hand strong pushes / builds very well and may infact be just better than me atm with macro style play.

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by ToRMaverick

Well since posting this I have tried several tactics including macro games and hard pushes. To be honest the pushes have given me more wins that any other.

I believe the reasons for this are just the pure aggression involved... my macro games are not aggressive and allow my opponent to macro or do what ever he wants. This is probably a major reason why my macro style games are not so good at the moment.

For me to improve my macro games I need to incorprate more scouting and react accordingly and also apply pressure (or percieved pressure) throughout the game.

For me anyway, is interesting that hard pushes give better results on ladder than macro style games.... prob just a fact that other BSGs cant hand strong pushes / builds very well and may infact be just better than me atm with macro style play.

Even at my level (mid/high diamond), there's a huge gap for most people between how well they play and macro when left alone, and how well they play when under pressure. Even when aggressive builds aren't technically the strongest possible option in a situation, sometimes you can reap the rewards of putting your opponent under pressure and allowing him to make mistakes.

[JoFritzMD]

If you sit back and try and have a macro vs macro game with zerg you should lose 100% of the time because he will just drone up. So you need to incorporate a timing to pressure the zerg into every build you have. Even if that pressure is just moving out killing lings at watchtowers and pulling back it can make a big difference.

It's hard to judge when to pull back and when to attack though. At least that's the problem I have, because one moment you'll be attacking and killing all of his lings and roaches then suddenly there's 15 more roaches in your face and your entire army is dead. Or there's 30 lings behind you and your entire army is dead (because i'm terrible at forcefields).

I guess I just need to play more games vs Z to get used to it.

[ricecake]

I subscribe to the school of thought, "if aren't sure if you should stop making workers or not, you shouldn't be."

The big rub against Zerg, as was stated earlier, is that you have to do something. If you give him map control, by its very nature Zerg will have time to react to any push you have coming. And until that push comes, he is going to drone drone drone. Terran and Protoss cannot compete with Zerg in terms of macro if the Zerg doesn't have to worry about building fighting units.