[NDG.Stitch]

Don't know if you guys have realized or not, but now its very similar for Protoss to rush DT's as a starter for the game, I've gotten DT rushed 5 times in a row today, and it feels really hard to counter. It's not really the fact that the DT's do too much damage to me. But its that I can't touch the Toss's mineral line or his base, and it's also hard for me to grab my third with DT's around the map. What usually happens after he goes DT's is the Toss goes straight for blink stalkers and immortals. And this completely rapes what I do, because I'm forced to get roaches but roaches get killed by immortals. How to defend this?!

[Satu]

Spot 2 gas, dont see many gas heavy units, make an evo chamber then a spore at main and natural.

Or you could spot the dt shrine. As if that'll ever happen.

[cruxis]

Yeah, DT require a lot of gas. If he's very zealot heavy, good chance it's DT's.

Also, is it 1 base or 2 base DT's? The timings of both are completely different.

Why are you going roach in response? Lings can take them out just as quick really, which also sets you up for immortals.

[BaKaiNu]

That, or gas steal. It either stops DT play entirely, or delay it up to a significant rate where your lair will be up by then.

[crAzerk]

I think you guys are missing his point:

It's not really the fact that the DT's do too much damage to me. But its that I can't touch the Toss's mineral line or his base, and it's also hard for me to grab my third with DT's around the map.

Yea DT harass can be dealt with, it's on bigger maps like say Typhon Peaks where their DTs deny 4th (natural and 3rd can be got rather easily), or other maps where they deny 3rd, that gets really annoying, as you need to send some units and an overseer over to defend it until you can get the spore+spines down. That's the only way I suppose.

What usually happens after he goes DT's is the Toss goes straight for blink stalkers and immortals. And this completely rapes what I do, because I'm forced to get roaches but roaches get killed by immortals. How to defend this?!

I don't follow your logic. Roaches for DTs? Why? Anything kills DTs, you just need an overseer.

It IS still possible to get DTs off 1 gas. I always gas steal all my Toss opponents, and I remember significantly one game when I still got DT rushed after that (I got complacent and didn't get overseer immediately after lair, until my drones started dying)

[nirvAnA]

glade makes a spore crawler when he isn't sure what the protoss is doing, as well as get fast +1 missile attacks usually.

it is a really good build which is safe and can adept to all sorts of cheese, but doesn't necessarily put him at an economic disadvantage if the protoss doesnt cheese

[PiG]

You want to be taking 0 damage whenever an opponent goes dts. Lings are fine for fighting dts, u just cant fight with only 1 or 2 lings at a time. 8 lings beat a dt and cost far less than 1. As everyone else said, if you aren't sure and u saw 2 gas then get an evo chamber at 6:00 and a spore at each base. Then continue with your normal tech route. use an overseer with your army and you should b ahead.

I would suggest that if you watch the replays you will probably see yourself doing 1 of the following:

1) losing too many units to the dts by reacting a little slow
2) Losing queens to the dts! ( no injects is really bad!)
3) getting distracted even after you fought them off and forgetting injects. Check your queens energy, the more they have the more injects uve missed. Every 25 energy built up is 4 larvae you didnt get to use.

[Next_rim]

Idk how can you lose map control to DT with zerg. DT is 7:20, 40 seconds before you get your default lair tech, and 5 (!) mins before average 3rd base timing.

[NDG.Stitch]

But what build do you go against a DT Rush into Blink Stalkers?
What I faced was a DT Rush -> DT + Stalker build. And the stalkers always immediately snipe out my overseer and it's so frustrating since they have blink and range. So Roaches don't do much, but my sling's can't really get surround on the blink stalkers. And I never get to have infestors before that margin because the Toss is putting ongoing pressure on me with a lot of stalkers and DT so I am forced to make army to defend.

[Meatex]

The style i use against toss works really well against that build. Try getting your third down before DT's hit and lots of upgraded lings rip through blinks stalkers. Blink micro barely helps when you have a tonne of slings with 1,1 or 2,2
And because the style is getting an evo chamber very early anyway you can just throw down spores just in case if you see the protoss player with less units than he should have. To tell that watch replays where the protoss played standard and compare unit comp with a protoss going DT rush.

[Next_rim]

Do you have any replays? Honestly, I can't imagine P putting ongoing pressure with DT rush and stalker on a 2-base droning zerg. You have to rush DT, do enormous damage not to fall behind, then expand, then get a decent amout of stalkers. All that time zerg is droning like a pro and getting hydra, which rapes any gateway-only play.

[PiG]

Stitch theres definitely some basic mechanical errors going on in your play! I used to get problems like this all the time where I just couldnt understand how to deal with it. However after loads of tournament experience and training with top players i found that its usually me failing at macro and unit control under pressure that makes me lose.

I still think you porbably just mismacrod and didnt have enough units! you should have so many more units then a blinkstalker dt army that it doesnt matter if you cant see the dts. You should just annihilate the blinkstalkers with speedling/speedroach and then morph more overseers.

Put some reps up!

[Meatex]

ewwww hydra TT
can't see any reason to go hydra over ling and/or roach tbh
And if he goes DT rush that tells you he lacks sentries (onnomnom for lings and roaches) and likely lacks detection
Burrow timing attack onnomnom

[AvPoker]

There are two ways of defending against DT openings:
1. Quick Lair into overseer
2. Evolution chamber and spore crawlers.

However, getting quick lair forces you to mine gas quicker, meaning that your economy will not be as good as you would want. This is why me and many high level zerg players prefer to get one spore at each base at the timing which dts will come. By the time the dts arrive, you will have a booming economy, which can transition into a timing attack against the protoss if they expand, and its impossible to defend.

[Eldrid]

4-5 overseers w/ speed upgraded should not be snipable. if he gets them all your micro on your overseers is terrible & theres your problem. 1 overseer is not enough.

People have said the following but i will re-state as i rarely if ever lose to dt opening (I had 1 game where I ran the thought 'Is he going DT's? probably not.... i stole his gas they will come too late' and he still went dt's. auto loss, i gg'd out when i saw their shadows)

Anyway, I like going ling/bling/infestor vs most toss comps into ultra later. so if you gas steal it heavily delays dt's (i gas steal most openings, sometimes if you scout 2nd or 3rd on a large maps theyll already have gas, be cautious on these openings)

Macro up fairly hard and watch for toss expo, 4-5+ sentries by about 6-7 minutes = auto no early dt's (the above is a standard 3 gate fe timing, they throw it down at about 7-8 or so min's.. im not 10000% sure of the exact time, but around then) they should also have maybe 1-2 zealots in there.

Significantly less (eg between none and 2) and you should be thinking where are his sentries. <2 = auto 1 spore in each base (he could be going stargate OR dt opening).

Im not going to assume a 4gate, im not going to cover it because i havent been 4 gated in weeks (month+ maybe?) ... they're easy to hold anyway.

Re; map control and taking your third, this is a great point. it sucks ><
You simply need an overseer & like 10 lings (or some roaches if thats your cup of tea) at your expo until you can throw down your spore & 2 spines. thats just how it is. dont think of yourself as behind because of this (if it delays you) just remember he opened dt's and did like no damage so his deathball is -sooooooooooooo- delayed. like 1000 gas delayed. thats alot.

Later on if he -does- get your overseers, or if theyre out of position, hopefully you have some infestors? FG on dt's reveals them for the duration of the spell.

GL bro!

PS: I like to do fairly high mineral builds against toss for lots of early drones (spanishiwa i guess), you can get earlier overseers if you desire but i like his style. it transitions well imo. If you prefer a gas style you could probably watch some idra vods / streaming, he does gas style "original" zerg style almost always i think.

[Eldrid]

Stitch, although my play is far from perfect, i think this replay will help you alot, it basically shows a counter to everything you say you have issues with.

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=305 - please tell me if this helps.

[robsg]

like Eldrid says, get more seers and mictro them well. always works!

[dennistoo]

I can tell you. I do DT rushes against greedy zerg that go for no gas FE at 14 food. My standard BO will get my DT out at 7.13min. It's pretty much all-in with DTs. If not scouted, it's pretty GG for the zerg.

Normally i don't drop 2nd gas early as good zerg will know what is coming his way. I dropped my 2nd gas at 18 food after my first zealot is out follow by a proxy Twilight Council > then a stalker to stop scouting overload > 2 more gate > Forge > proxy plyon.

It order to stop this is 2 base lings/roaches all in. A DT rusher like me won't go for sentry as i need the gas for 3x DT @ 7.13min mark. If DT rush failed, it's probably GG for protoss as it is very very far behind.

Obviously sign is pure zealot with little sentry and stalkers.

I can show you my replays if you want.

[crAzerk]

As everyone else said, if you aren't sure and u saw 2 gas then get an evo chamber at 6:00 and a spore at each base.

Just checking, does this spore crawler timing come out just in time for both DTs and Stargate rushes?

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Just checking, does this spore crawler timing come out just in time for both DTs and Stargate rushes?

Yes, it will.