[PiG]

Originally Posted by Fullstop

Usually when you go 14/14 you don't drone scout because the build is safe against early pool and scouting anything won't change your reaction. I think you should only drone scout if you're doing Hatch first.

I sometimes drone scout and if I see a speedling build won't build my first 4 lings and just keep droning, then pump lings and use defenders advantage (queens+ramps) to get a slight edge. If your opponent goes for a 14 speedling expo and pumps lings nonstop but you go to 16 drones and then pump lings with good positioning you can hold and get a pretty decent advantage in the earlygame. This is pretty advanced though and if you misposition then 4-6 less lings = massacre.

[SLCN.NXZ]

I think I'm going to remove the drone scout from my play for now, only reason to do it is to go speed expo vs speed expo and also to speed expo vs roach builds. Roach expand vs one base roach builds is basically a much easier way to hold then going speedling expo, requires much less APM and I think would be overall easier for everyone. For example, if you both expand you're even and if he goes for any sort of roach ling aggression you hold it with your queens and defenders advantage alongside your own roach/ling. On the other hand, roach expo vs speedling expo I think still favors speedling expo but roach expand is much safer and tbh if you use speed well, you can crush any greedy play from the other player by just attacking with roach ling. Basically it means you might be slightly behind if you play against a speedling player but its probably equal to a speedling expand with such an early drone scout.

Going to update with my new build order and early game openings when I get around to it.

[SLCN.NXZ]

Updated!!! Have fun with it guys

[TADivinity]

A good read - it reinforced a couple of things I have stopped doing myself.

I think I am going to give your build a try. It is much more reactive than what I have been doing in my own early game zvz - which is ironic because I play zvp and zvt in a far more reactive manner.

So from what I understand, If you scout a regular 14/14 speedling expand, a 15 Hatch, or a Pool/Roach/Hatch build, you will expand ~21 and get a baneling nest (And roach warren when affordable) -- Whilst keeping lings outside his base, ready to counter attack (as well as keeping tabs on saturation)

And, if its anything else, then you will just go the stated build, get ~6 roach, then expand?



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Edit: Okay, been playing around with it on ladder and trying various situations / opposition builds with a couple TA guys.

I'm just wondering, you say if you scout a 14/14 speedling expand or a 15 hatch, you will cancel the roach warren. Does this not happen regularly?
I dont know if the justification of this being a small economic cost to allow for the safety of not dying to a 1-base is worth it.. Or am i missing something?

[SLCN.NXZ]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

A good read - it reinforced a couple of things I have stopped doing myself.

I think I am going to give your build a try. It is much more reactive than what I have been doing in my own early game zvz - which is ironic because I play zvp and zvt in a far more reactive manner.

So from what I understand, If you scout a regular 14/14 speedling expand, a 15 Hatch, or a Pool/Roach/Hatch build, you will expand ~21 and get a baneling nest (And roach warren when affordable) -- Whilst keeping lings outside his base, ready to counter attack (as well as keeping tabs on saturation)

And, if its anything else, then you will just go the stated build, get ~6 roach, then expand?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: Okay, been playing around with it on ladder and trying various situations / opposition builds with a couple TA guys.

I'm just wondering, you say if you scout a 14/14 speedling expand or a 15 hatch, you will cancel the roach warren. Does this not happen regularly?
I dont know if the justification of this being a small economic cost to allow for the safety of not dying to a 1-base is worth it.. Or am i missing something?

No the idea is, if you choose not to drone scout on tal'darim or Antiga then when your lings arrive at his base it's too late for you to not have started your roach warren vs one base builds, so you get a more delayed hatch vs hatch first but you don't die if he goes for an allin. Also you shouldn't be making a roach warren if you're planning on doing speed expand bs speed expand. If you do that you must drone scout if you don't want to die and still have a good economy (obviously cancelling a roach warren is a huge hit in a speed expand vs speed expand scenario.

The overall goal of the build isn't quite what you mentioned either, you can choose to drone scout at 14/15 supply allowing you to do the original builds (speed expand vs everything, but baneling all ins). You can go baneling all in vs speed expand also. If you plan on doing this style (speedling expand oriented) I recommend doing a14/14 build as it suits the play more.

On the other hand you can only drone scout on the large 4 player maps mentioned above and go roach expand vs everything and speed expand vs a hatch first. This build is slightly safer against the allins the opponent can do, much less reliant on counters and the like vs a roach ling all in on one base and also avoids the micro intensive situations you can get into vs another speeding expand. Obviously I think a speeding expand is superior than a roach expand, however playing a speeding expand requires an incredibly fine balance to survive. The roach expand player is automatically playing safe or going allin, we can't go economy and therefore, can't be allined. This means speedling expand has to play safe or greedy. If he plays safe we're in a great position, we have an even drone count and better tech with him building spines and lings for defence. All you have to do vs an economy centric player is scout it, remember ALWAYS make a 2 lings after the roaches to scout him (they'll have speed), then once you identify his greedy play, attack with your roaches and reinforce with all lings, if you don't outright kill him you will at least reset the game and even out the economy. Micro is huge for this attack, keep you're roaches somewhere they can't be surrounded at and use them to focus fire banes while you dance your lings around out of baneling range. Once his banelings go down your lings with roach support will crush through his queen spine ling defence.

Lastly you can not drone scout at all, personally I don't recommend this as although you get the econ advantage sometimes on the 4 player maps when you g cross positions and he goes hatch first you're very far behind because of your cancellation of the roach warren. No reason to do this build over the above one IMO.

I'll update the replays when I can with the play I'm favouring nowadays, ie, the second one I talked abut above.

I would definitely try bot styles to find out which one you prefer, they're both really strong ways to play and if you think you like the mobility of speedling expand, go for it.