[jayaiwhy]

I've been laddering alot recently on NA and I'm facing occasional GMs finally , and I've been having couple of questions in my mind about Zerg

ZvT

-Is there way to punish a 1 rax -> CC -> CC or CC-> 1 rax -> CC?

I know I could 3 hatch before pool against CC first or 6 Queen every game (basically outmacro), but it's getting quite boring repeating those builds. (and often turns into who can be more greedy)

And I don't want to get early gas to hint my "blind" all-in (I can just not all-in after getting 17 gas, but I'd rather prefer 4/6 Queen opener if I'm not going to all in)

I remember seeing some Kespa player opening with no gas (faking 4/6 queen openers) then getting double gas into RoachBane all-in. Does anyone know of this build, if so, link me please



-Will a Zerg be behind if they open 6 queens against a CC first? (and against CC-> 1 rax -> CC)

Related to the previous question, is it okay to use 6 Queen opener every game?

Also, how does putting down an early third benefits a Zerg?

-Is there a way to prevent 2-2 Push from ever happenig?

The popular timing for Terran seems to be the 2-2 push with Marine-Tank. (before Hive tech units come out)

Sometimes if I'm ahead (when a Terran does silly 2 base timings with Bio or MarineHellion) (I don't know why Terrans do this, when going for 3CC is obviously the better choice in the current meta), I can just A-move my army and win

But against a decent player, this push is really scary.

I used to go for 10min Hive, and this 2-2 push was really laughable. But now that I open 6 queens into 3rd, which means delayed tech, this push got a tad scarier and I'm sure it'll get even more scarier as I climb up the ladder.




ZvP

-I'm starting to hate this match-up

Every ZvP these days, revolve around 3 hatch Roach-Ling (unless I see an early third, then I go for mass ling with ups Symbol style)

But unfortunately, ZvP don't last that long most of the games due to Protoss players not wanting to play late game PvZ. I can understand.

So my question is, is there no other way to play ZvP but to 3 hatch RoachLing, until maybe HotS comes out?

-Unit composition for 3 base Immortal Sentry

I don't know the exact timing, but I've been facing Protoss taking an early third into 3 base immortal sentry push at around 13-14min (if anyone knows the proper timings of the third and the push, that'd be awesome if you share it )

Around this time is when my Hive is morphing, or just done if I see an early third.
What's the best unit composition against this?

I saw EGSuppy (former xSix) go for mass spines on entomb and held it with ease,
But I was wondering if you can hold this off with just units, if so, what kind of composition?


-Super-late game ZvP

When the Zerg is maxed with BL/Infestor army, how do you deal with Warp Prisms late game when the Protoss can warp in 10+ Zealots at once?

Should I always have a mobile army (Lings) in my 200/200 army? They seem to die to Zealots pretty easily though.

Better placements / more Spores and Spines?


-Correct response for 1 gate expand

My last 4/5 ZvP I played, I've faced 1 gate expand build.

I've been winning against it by all-inning with banes, or Roach-Ling but what's the correct "macro" response for this build?

There's just so many things a Protoss could do at so many timings, I'm a bit confused as to what to do. Scout and play accordingly I guess?

[MrToast]

You do realize you can make 1000 drones at one time right?

[jayaiwhy]

Originally Posted by MrToast

You do realize you can make 1000 drones at one time right?

so just 6 queen every game?

[MrToast]

Does a zerg really need anything other than queens and drones before the 15 minute mark?

[Satu]

I feel like I can give some answers to these, some of these questions are basic matchup understanding problems by the looks of it.

Originally Posted by jayaiwhy

ZvT

-Is there way to punish a 1 rax -> CC -> CC or CC-> 1 rax -> CC?

The correct response vs CC first is to get your 3rd hatch super early. Doesn't have to be before pool, just needs to be as soon as you can make it. If a terran makes a CC first, they are giving up the right to attack you at all until ~7-8min mark, so be greedy. Of course, if you scout them going double CC, this means the attack is more delayed.

1rax into double CC, if scouted, should just be the standard 4/6 queen build, but greedier. Basically, it feels like you're asking how to beat a greedy terran, answer is be greedier. Like you're suggesting, you can go allin, just its not advisable. Terran have specific timings that they can scan your main (around 6-7 min mark) and can almost be guaranteed to see if you're allining or not. Its good to have those builds in your arsenal, just don't rely on them too often. Basically, they're better for Bo3s.

-Will a Zerg be behind if they open 6 queens against a CC first? (and against CC-> 1 rax -> CC)

You'd be even at best, but due to mules you'd probably be slightly behind. Which means you'll lose unless you have sick-good engagements or get super greedy past that point and don't get punished.

-Is there a way to prevent 2-2 Push from ever happenig?

Sure, you can allin? I don't think you should be asking how to stop the 2-2 push from ever happening though, instead ask what you can be doing better to punish the terran for doing that push. A lot of terrans I see doing this push (assuming its the 3base one) rush up to 3base and then rush up to 2-2 and the appropriate maxed out marine tank army. You should be super greedy when seeing the terran rushing to 3base (if thats the case for you), then proceed to creep spread EVERYWHERE after scouting their unit comp. Marine tank pushes suck vs a lot of creep and suck vs getting surrounded. If you see the push occurring, which you should from your creep spread, you can surround it and at the very least get an even trade. As long as you then keep pumping units, you'll be fine. But its very dependent on how you engage.

It also might be possible to rush ultras out in time, to help with tank splash damage, but I'm still working a bit on stopping the push myself.

ZvP

-I'm starting to hate this match-up

So my question is, is there no other way to play ZvP but to 3 hatch RoachLing, until maybe HotS comes out?


My suggestion is watch tgun. He does muta ling, ling with bane drops, ling infestor... Basically anything but roach ling, and makes it work. I don't know many others who are doing the same.

-Unit composition for 3 base Immortal Sentry

You could sit back and make a lot of spines to allow your infestors to chain fungal their army. You could counter attack with a large roach ling infestor army when they choose to eventually attack, kill their third off and maybe get an army trade at their base before remaxing. You can rush to broods by getting a 10min hive and spire and skipping spines while getting only some infestors (5-6). But its dependant on so many different factors that it'd be best if you provided replays for this section.


-Super-late game ZvP

Better placements / more Spores and Spines?

Yeah, more spores and spines. More spores are better for spots like your main where they have no choice but to warp prism in, more spines are better for 4ths and 5ths to also help vs frontal attacks.

-Correct response for 1 gate expand

Don't know the exact answer, I've been guessing it a bit vs 1gate expand and winning majority of the time. Maybe someone else can help you here.

Quick Comments

	jayaiwhy:	All the answers were all informative, and I'll sure to watch tgun's stream / VODs. Thanks <3
	BearPack:	Very informative :)

[BearPack]

My ZvT is atrocious, so I won't mention that, but I feel as though ZvP is probably my best matchup right now, so I might offer my - thoughts :P

Originally Posted by jayaiwhy

I've been laddering alot recently on NA and I'm facing occasional GMs finally , and I've been having couple of questions in my mind about Zerg

ZvP

-I'm starting to hate this match-up

In nearly every ZvP game I play, I get a gas before my third, and get an early speed. Normally this kicks in around the time that the protoss sends 1-2 stalkers and a zealot to harrass my third, and allows me to take them out easily. Of course, this also gives complete map control, and keeps the protoss in their base for longer, or can even do a large amount of damage to greedy protoss players.

Incase of a 2base all-in, dropping the roach warren is a negligible cost, and will help vs weird metagame compositions (mass zealot/sentry/immortal, no stalkers).

Opening symbol style is a really good way to utilize this, and then just go for double upgraded lings into a lategame infestor/ultra/ling composition that seems to be REALLY good against protoss players that sit back on the defensive with their sentry/robo army. Of course, the ultras rip through forcefields, allowing the lings to do more damage than they should be able to do :P

For kicks, I like to get neural as well, just in case they get their mothership, or they have a few too many collossi in their army that I'd like to capitalize on :P

-Unit composition for 3 base Immortal Sentry

From what I've been able to tell, the only thing to do if he wants to be agressive on 3bases whilst you're getting a hive is just to be defensive with spines, infestors, and ling/roach. If you can delay the damage until broods get out, you're almost in a spot to just win.

-Super-late game ZvP

I think spores and spines are the answer here, of course with creep spread and overlord map vision. If it's really a problem, leaving an infestor or two at places he would be likely to drop would be really good as well. In the super-late game, a couple of extra infestors to place in your bases is a negligible cost, so I'd say go for it :P

-Correct response for 1 gate expand

With the way I open with early gas, speedlings can hold any sort of early aggression realtively alright, and it's even easier if you spot the proxy plyons first and just go for them. From there just play accordingly.

I feel the most confident in this matchup, and early lingspeed has saved my ass countless times, and are a great way to transition to the late-game.

I guess any thoughts on the matchup are welcome :P

[SLCN.Kez]

Its hard to tell your questions but ill give it a shot:
ZVT: In regards to the 2/2 timing, if he has done any sort of pressure to you before hitting with this 2/2 timing then it delays it a lot, and you should have hive or 4 bases with good drone saturation and 2/2 of your own to be able to defend it. If he hasn't harassed you at all and you've been free and the 2/2 timing comes aroudn 14-15 minutes then you should have a hive done at least and have 4-5 bases with good econ, which means you can stop it. Chances are you're not really being outmacroed, but you're being out engaged. This is my problem atm I find when jumping from NA Masters to GM. How well you engage, where you engage, and how good your battle micro become really important. Its hard to tell without a replay but i would say that is your best bet. In terms of "can you stop it from happening" You can counter attack to try to delay it, or spread your creep super fast and good so when they push with marine tank it takes them ages to go through all the creep.


"will I be behind if they go CC>1 rax>CC or CC>1rax>CC: Not really, as long as they dont go CC>1 rax>CC>1/1>Medivacs>BIO tankless. In which case they will literally have NO units until about the 10 mark, which should be easy enough to scout, in which case you make a lot of lings and baneligns and go kill them. It sounds like you're just having scouting issues in general if these sorts of builds and openings are giving you trouble. Just ensure you have a ling scouting the front (if he is going super greedy he wont have hellions to deny ur lings) and then sack an ovie at 6:45, if you see nothing then 99/100 times you are good to drone a **** tonne, get a 10-11 min hive and take a 4th.


ZVP:I've never used the early gas speedling build, but roach ling with 3 bases works well and is good I feel. If you're bored with this opening then bad luck I guess.

13-14 Minute push: With immortals and a decent number of sentry/stalker it typically comes more on the 14 min side, and if they push earlier they wont have as many units so thats fine. Good fungals and a good engage with spines will defend this push, and after this push comes you'll be fine to go ahead and get broods/ultras. These sorts of pushes I call "checks". Its your opponent checking you making sure you arent playing too greedy by skipping infestors or spines or making to many drones or teching to quickly or taking to many bases. This is a really complicated technique as if you have done any one of those things i mentioned above you'll most likely die or take a bunch of damage. Now, ways to see if this push is coming is of course scouting, looking for the following: Colossis Bay: If he has this, you're good until 16-17 mins depending on map.
Gateway count: Typically with this build they add a few more gates for more stalkers, if you see more than 5-6 its a good bet hes doing this build,
ANy other type of tech be it Stargate or templar or DTs, then its a good bet you have more time.

"how do you deal lategame with warp prism harass" Few well places spores/spines, and just a few lings really, but they arent even that necessary.

1 gate expo: If they do 1 gate into nexus into forge ala naniwa style, then i personally like 2 base muta with 3/4 behind it, but everyone is different. 1 gate builds arent much different to forge builds, the timings are just a bit different (they usually come earlier) or they are all-inning you somehow.

[syfSoundwave]

Early game ZvT how do I deal with 2-4 marines going around killing overlords? I can't punish it because early game I don't want to make zerglings (and if I do by the time I react to it and get them out there the marines are already back home) and it SEVERELY fucks up my scouting. Impossible to scout at 6:30 if they kill all my overlords going across the map on Daybreak or Ohana, etc.

[SLCN.Kez]

Don't send ur overlords in scouting patterns that go over land.

Quick Comments

ROCCAT_Savior:

This basically -> First marine out at 3:15ish, first Protoss AA at like 4:30 ish

[syfSoundwave]

Originally Posted by Tek Kez

Don't send ur overlords in scouting patterns that go over land.

Is it possible to get an overlord in position for a 6:30 scout on Daybreak if you do that?

Quick Comments

SLCN.Kez:

No idea, go try it out!

[Pox]

My answers for ZvT:

-Is there way to punish a 1 rax -> CC -> CC or CC-> 1 rax -> CC?

I've never seen cc rax cc, but I'm certain you could make 8 lings when your pool+hatch finish and do damage. For rax cc cc they will have enough marines that you can't punish it with lings from a hatch first. Roach allins will be more effective but a good terran should still be able to hold fine. In my opinion the best result to a fast 3cc is to get super greedy with drones (which for me means getting a third hatch slightly faster than usual and delaying queens 5,6).

-Will a Zerg be behind if they open 6 queens against a CC first? (and against CC-> 1 rax -> CC)


Not really - you'll be a little bit behind on income when the triple mules kick in and your third hasn't; but you should be safe to go directly to 60 drones and make up the difference quite quickly.

I remember seeing some Kespa player opening with no gas (faking 4/6 queen openers) then getting double gas into RoachBane all-in.

Just take double gas as your first two queens are about to finish and cut at 2 or 3 queens - to be convincing you probably want 3 queens, with the natural queen sitting out the front with the creep queen except when injecting.

-Is there a way to prevent 2-2 Push from ever happenig?
Personally I play ling bane muta, and in many games there are opportunities to deny the third for quite some time, especially if you crushed their pressure. However, the 2/2 push isn't the end of the world - you can hold with ling bane as long as you keep up on upgrades and flank well, and you should have a full ultra ling remax available after the fight if you got to 80+ drones reasonably fast.

Originally Posted by ETL.Soundwave

Is it possible to get an overlord in position for a 6:30 scout on Daybreak if you do that?

I send my second overlord over my natural and third, then up and across the top and I think it gets there at around 7 mins.

[jayaiwhy]

I've found a build that fakes Queen openers into RoachBane attack, I'll just share it here

I saw it on TL somewhere, but now I can't find it

I believe is was Line/Suhosin's build


15 hatch
17pool
28 gas
28 3rd queen
44 3rd base / 2nd gas / ling speed / roach warren

This build worked great, and because you take that third base, the Terran is tricked and if the attack does enough damage, you can straight go drone like mad.

[Raithen]

A few pointers that I have.
My gameplay involves pressure that has guarenteed pay offs.
ZvT you can go for a 2 base +1 carapace roach timing that you drone behind, guarenteed to snipe a few buildings, reduce their army, get some scv's. It has to hit before siege tanks, you can take a third behind it.

ZvP same thing, do the whole stephano build but when you confirm FFE take a gas, get a roach den, move out with about 5 roaches, take your third and drone up behind it.
These 5 roaches WILL kill the forge/core/units. Worse case you equalise and game goes on as normal.
If they are going for a proxy, or a 2 base timing, or something early you counter them and win right there.

The immo-sentry push, you will identify it easily by basic scouting, get a 4th macro hatch and get a queen to inject it while its building. This allows you to get enough lings out for it. Start engaging as they move out to get those forcefields and yes throw down some extra spines. Use some of the lings to do a run by and make them have no follow up.

I'll get some replays and try to give you my exact timings (anyone who knows my play knows my timings are freakin wierd).