[AxS.Xenovia]

here are a few replays that i palyed vs toss on ladder.. some how, i cant beat them! what is my problem??

http://drop.sc/242869
http://drop.sc/242870
http://drop.sc/242871

i have no idea whats going wrong... someone help PLEASE

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=202&page=31

[ToRPatto]

I will give you my opinion on things that may have helped from another Silvers prospective. Just a little disclaimer that the advice that I give you, I do not always do perfectly myself. I'm typing these as I watch them so forgive me if I say something that you change later on. Where I can see that you can improve on I'll tell you

Game 1: KFCMoka vs Shadowzee:
The first point that I felt like something may not have made sense to me is your wall. This could have been a mistake that you forgot to build you 10 depot so you quickly dropped it down near you mineral line (if you would like to clarify), but if you are going to wall off why not start on 10? if you had started the wall at 10 you could have hidden the fact that you went for fast factory tech.

@7:00 you scanned. Just a small thing but you could have run an SCV up there and received the same information. A good thing to remember is that scanning costs around 300 minerals (using the energy on a MULE instead). Also again at @16:00 you scanned the 3rd to the north. Could have used a unit or the floating factory that you had to the north that was idle.

@8:00 it is especially visible that you need to use hot keys. When you are attacking you could stim then hit the hot key for you rax, build some units, hit the hot key for you starport, build a medivac and then continue to micro your units. You used the hotkeys a little later on, but tapping between all of your production facilities can help you produce more.

As a general rule of thumb is that you should scan your army before moving out vs Protoss. Observers can be a pain and your 4 medivac drop led to being greeted by a lot of stalkers. Doing a single drop with Marines to specifically kill probes or Marauders to snipe tech can help you reduce your losses and not leave your base totally undefended.

@14:30 you dropped down a fair few amounts of barracks because you had the money to. Going back to hot keys and macroing better, you shouldn't have really had the money to build those if you had been constantly been building SCV's, army units and supply depots.

Your upgrades could have been down a bit earlier, but then you would have needed to take another base if you were producing effectively.

One of the positives of using the Marine, Marauder, Medivac unit composition is that it is a very mobile force. Instead of having your units sitting on the ramp at your natural they would have been used more effectively clearing the Xel'Naga Tower and trying to drop your opponents base. If he cannons up his base and you can't get in to do any damage that is a positive. He spent so much extra money on the cannons that it can be about equal mineral damage as if you successfully dropped his base and saved your units.
When you were taking your 3rd and you were heading for the southern natural, you could have taken the one south-east of your main. I like to take this one more because you can have your units position in between you 3rd and the ramp at your natural. You can then stim and get into a position to defend.

Late game Protoss has the ability to re-max instantly on gateway units. Due to this Terran needs to be to have enough production facilities to be able to stop any counter attack that might be incoming. At the @24:00~ I would have dropped a lot of rax so that when you engaged, you would have been able to get back to 200 instantly if you didn't win from the first engage.

With the final engagement, you engage in a choke point. You scanned before you engaged and with that should have looked at the unit composition, seeing that there were Dark Templar at the front. You had enough scans ready, just didn't do it ( which is fine )
You had the bulk of your army on 1 hot key, vikings on 2 and ghosts on 3 which is good, but with your amount of APM I wouldn't worry about all that. Maybe have the vikings in control group 1 and then again on 2, then micro them in and out to snipe colossus with your army idle or attack-moving. Having different units is good for people in the higher leagues, but for us players in Bronze, Silver and sometimes even Gold, we are not capable of getting a perfect engagement with units on different hotkeys. The vikings were sitting in the back for the 2/3 of the final battle and may have turned out differently if the Colossus were taken out asap.
Having 3/3 would have helped too.

Scouting is definitely helps a lot. Scouting for tech, units, drops and most importantly extra bases. You only knew that he was on 2 base when he was actually on 4. Knowing that is detrimental to knowing how much he can produce. Luckily for you he only had 6 gates and 2 robos instead of something crazy like 20.

You should try following a general build opener that is focused around getting a good economy up. Terran has the advantage early-mid game before Colossus and High Templar can rear their ugly heads. A really strong build that I have been having great success with and I have done for as long as I have played Terran for is coL.Drewbie's gas less fast expand opener.

Here http://www.complexitygaming.com/foru...ead.php?t=4456

You get 4 barracks, all of the infantry upgrades (Combat Shield, Stimpack and Concussive Shells) and reactor-ed medivacs. There is also a timing that is very strong, (@11:30~ when you get your first 2 medivacs) that wins me the game most of the time. If you drop a Engineering Bay at the same time you place your Factory then you can get +1 Infantry Weapons for the push.
The only negative about the build that I can think of off the top of my head is that it can be killed of early to a 1 base all in (example: 4 gate). To prevent this drop 3 or so bunkers in preparation, have SCV's ready to repair, and SCOUT!

So after spending about an hour on this I hope that you gain something out of it. Once again if I am only a Silver Terran too, so if anybody with more experience sees something in my advice that is incorrect or doesn't make sense, then please comment on it. I am also trying to improve too

Best of luck and GLHF -Patto
Also I'll have a look at the other replays later on to see if there is something in the other two that I haven't covered in this

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Very nice post! +1
	A3Mercury:	very helpful thank you :)
	FS.Kezz:	Very well done

[ToRPatto]

Game 2: MDK vs KFCMoka:
Ill be doing this post in points because it's simpler.

The first depot again. If you are going to wall off then use the first depot. Denies scouting and so on and so forth.

You don't really need to attack his scouting probe. As long as it stays in vision and doesn't try and put a pylon in your base you can remove it later with your 1st marine. He doesn't gain much unless you are doing a cheesy build and you loose the minerals that the SCV would have mined.

I really don't like the idea of going 15 expand blindly at all. If you scouted earlier and you saw that the Protoss was going for a really fast nexus (faster then a 1 gate expand) then this could be fine. There is nothing wrong with going for a really fast Command Center but in the lower leagues it is hard to predict what your opponent is doing sometimes, just a little to risky for me.

Your bunker is a little early too. You might have been able to slip that in at around 20 supply because any pressure that could do any damage (example: 1 Stalker and 1 Zealot) wouldn't be at your front by then. Even if you don't have a bunker you can micro the marine that is being targeted by the Zealot and in case of an emergency retreat to your wall.

@5:00 I really like what you did with the Marine, sending him around the map but I don't think that there would be a proxy pylon on the map just yet. Maybe in another minute but the idea is there Also sending your Marine on a Attack move command (A+Right Mouse click) may be able to pick of a lonely probe.

Tapping (when you hit the number buttons that are hot keyed to see what is being produce) is the best way to maximize production. From seeing how much money you have left over you can decide whether or not you can add on more production, tech or expand.

Sending a handful of units to the Xel'Naga Tower, can help you scout incoming attacks (obviously xD). If you had control of the tower, you would have seen the probe go for the proxy.

The Missile Turret that you placed at the front of your base was a nice touch. Important against any race if you do not know what they are doing.
Tip: If you think that you have spotted an observer you should try scrolling in and out on the mouse wheel. This will zoom in and that little warping that you get from clocked units will become bigger and move making it much more easier to spot.

@11:30 when the Protoss attacked, if you had scouted better you might have been able to build another bunker and pull SCV's to repair. Would have minimized your losses.

@13:30 while you didn't have a natural it would have been good if you were still producing SCV's. When you moved out and killed his units and when you land your Command Center, you could have maynarded a heap of workers and had a fully saturated base again. Just some little things

@16:00 again just using an SCV or marine to scout if he has taken any expansions.

@19:00 you took the tower with some units and then went back to your main. Why? there was no need to head back, and you could have positioned your army at the tower as you had just taken your 3rd. A good concept to get your idea around is trying to position your army in correlation to the positioning of your opponents. I personally realized this by watching the Day[9] Daily #485 - DRG vs MMA.
( link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMi1...feature=relmfu I think that is the correct one )
Although it is from the Zerg's prospective, It helps with positioning and helps with Siege Tank placement.

If you scout and see that he is going for Colossus, then instead of getting a Ghost Academy, switching to viking production would be more advisable. EMP's are great but Colossus just fry everything on the ground.

Seeing that he is only on 2 bases at the 22 minute mark either means that he is really bad, or something fishy is happening. I don't like to leave it to 'he is just really bad' so I use 1 unit to scout every base. Knowing how much he can spend and all that good stuff.

At the engagements around 25:00 and 27:00 you really, really needed vikings. Marines are a really strong source of damage, while Marauders are not so much. I love using Marauders but they are not the best vs Zealots. Chuck a handful in for the Concussive Shells and leave it at that

@29:30 you really didn't need to drop his expansion to the North-West. You had the superior army and he just threw his last Colossus and Zealots at you. All of your units would have been just fine.

If there is anything else that I repeated from the last game I'm sorry. Once again if anybody doesn't feel like what I said is correct please do correct me.

Best of luck -ToRPatto

Quick Comments

Toastyzeus:

Fantastic, +1

[Toastyzeus]

What Patto says is absolutely true. With Terran it is crucial to be scouting, but even more important to be constantly producing.

I myself struggle with TvP late-game too, but it is important to remember what you need to be doing. If they are only on 2 base you don't need to be attacking, starving them out and forcing them into unfavorable engagements will often win you games then and there!


But, once again, Patto's post is completely right. Focus on fixing these issues and refining your build and i'm confident you will succeed in the TvP match-up!

[ToRPatto]

ON TO GAME 3!!
Not expecting much new here but I'll still have a look at it and give it a go

Game 3: DrakDragon vs KFCMoca:

You seem to have the scouting for proxies pretty well down pat but you waste a lot of time setting the way points. Instead of moving your mouse to the edge of the screen and then clicking a way point, you should try clicking on the mini-map and then queuing the command.
Even better would be to try and set the way point by only using the mini-map. This way is less specific but extremely more efficient. Just select the unit, hold Shift and the A button then Right Mouse click to where you want to go.

@9:00 You see that he was warping in units. I don't always have the best map awareness but I normally see something like that and have at least 1 bunker up. If you see that there is units, and a forward pylon, then I would suggest automatically dropping bunkers, so that you have 2-3. They are salvageable so you know that you can get a majority of the minerals back. If you had bunkers up at your natural and pulled SCV's when he was moving out, you would have most likely of held that push and then even counter attacked when you got Medivacs.

Tip: As a Terran playing against a Protoss on Daybreak, I like to attack through the 3rd (not the one closest to the Xel'Naga Tower) and then into the natural as there is a larger ramp so it can be not as easy for the Protoss to force-field the ramp.

Apart from that I can't see anything else that I haven't touched upon. To improve I always watch a bunch of Day9 Dailies and dApollo's Terran tutorials which I will link below. I wish you the best of luck and I'm going to stop typing now because my brain hurts xD -ToRPatto


Day[9] Daily #360 - Mental Checklist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzhIjG39Haw (Tapping and producing units)

Day[9] Daily #252 - Secrets of Hotkeys, APM and Mouse Movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUohpQKVf_A (Title is pretty much it)

Starcraft II - Terran Tutorial Working up from Bronze League: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFQEQ255Kio (Generally everything!)


Best of luck

[AxS.Xenovia]

Thanks so much!

some of the early engagements are due to me doing something else and them him jsut rofling his way thru (so i wasnt even p[resnt at the engagement) lol

reason why i dont scout as often as i should is that i keep thinking i have overlords to move in lol. (was a zerg player XD)

ill take a look at the vids sometime soon.

Thanks for the help. it was much MUCH appreciated

[ToRPatto]

Yeah I have gone from Protoss to Terran so I always used to think I could warp in when I lost units. Luckily for me it never ended badly ahaha
I'm glad it helped, I felt like passing on how much I actually love 'mid game' TvP

[ToRPatto]

Also if there is anything that doesn't make sense or is hard to understand, please tell me. That was my first time at analyzing a replay and then giving advice so some of it might sound fine in my head but not on screen. Thanks

[A3Mercury]

The ONLY times I can successfully stomp on a Protoss is when I know exactly what he is doing. I am really bad at this haha. I've heard its a waste scanning P but if you can get lucky it helps so much.

Basically I try to make the usual 10 minute push with 3 rax (2 tech labs 1 reactor) with MMM. If they have collossi, I make vikings, if they have HT I get ghosts and so on.. I've been seeing if they get a 3rd base, ghosts are an absolute must with Mobious (fail spell) reactor and possibly cloak if you can afford it. EMP and snipe HT and it cripples them big time, because they spent all that on HTs and you just stopped storms entirely. If they do Immortals, I just keep making MMM because they are powerful, but are basically like walking into a tankline and being able to target them down.

I am ALWAYS afraid of cheese from P and if you can hide a FE until the timing for a 4-gate has past, then you're in good shape. If they see you've taken a CC/OC before/after your first rax, they will be dumb not to 4-gate you because a 10 minute, 2 base MMM push with +1, stim, and concussive shells is straight up deadly lol..

Protoss is easily my worst matchup, but this is what I've seen when watching replays. I ALWAYS over-extend as well.. pull back when you're losing because warp-ins are simply faster than rax because they don't always have to walk across the entire map. I've considered switching to P because blink stalkers are a lot of fun lol. But I can't leave Terran just yet.

[etherealfall]

Originally Posted by A3Mercury

I am ALWAYS afraid of cheese from P and if you can hide a FE until the timing for a 4-gate has past, then you're in good shape. If they see you've taken a CC/OC before/after your first rax, they will be dumb not to 4-gate you because a 10 minute, 2 base MMM push with +1, stim, and concussive shells is straight up deadly lol..

Suspect a 4 gate = build another bunker, transfer 6 probes from main down to your natural and get ready to pull and heal. 4 gate auto loses if well prepared for.

[VB_heathen]

Originally Posted by etherealfall

Suspect a 4 gate = build another bunker, transfer 6 probes from main down to your natural and get ready to pull and heal. 4 gate auto loses if well prepared for.

Agreed. I used to auto build 3 bunkers just because i was 'afraid/worried' about cheese from the P (also cos i'm bad) but it delays the medvac timing far too much if the toss just expands and chills. I had to put myself in a kind of greedy mindset. Minimal defense (bunkers/turrets) unless i can be sure i have some decent early pressure coming my way. Scout for the probe, deny forward pylons, keep the towers to see something coming and try to check the nexus for banked chrono.

[ToRSpookToR]

Originally Posted by A3Mercury

I am ALWAYS afraid of cheese from P and if you can hide a FE until the timing for a 4-gate has past, then you're in good shape. If they see you've taken a CC/OC before/after your first rax, they will be dumb not to 4-gate you because a 10 minute, 2 base MMM push with +1, stim, and concussive shells is straight up deadly lol..

da fuq10char