[SLCN.Kez]

Hey guys, so i've been having a lot of trouble against terrans who do pretty early 3 command centres and then just turtle until theyre nearly maxed with tank marine ghost viking thor. Ive got replays but atm im at work so wont be able to post, But the issue comes in I cant simply take the map in case they push out, unless I should be able to pump out enough units as soon as i see them pushing?

Then, After this, I feel like viking ghost tank + marines + thors is really good at dealing with broodlord infestor against good terrans who can control their vikings well so they dont get fungalled, as the tanks outrange the infestors, the vikings are good vs corrupters and ghosts to support.

The other issue of course is that its really hard to bust a terran whos turtling even if i can remax and go again i find this generally doesnt work, unless im ahead anyway or the terran is bad.

I understand this is a complicated question and ill post about 1323541 replays i have with this problem but yeh was wondering what some of the top pros (pig mafia etc) try n do against this sort of play.

THANKS!!

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

How early is pretty early? A CC is 400 minerals, so that's 400 less they can spend on army and you can expand at the same time. If it's super early you can just go kill them because they won't have any army.

Post up the replays when you can because it will help pin point it much more than just these vague scenarios.

[SLCN.Kez]

Usually round 8 mins or so, maybe earlier or lil later.
The problem I generally have tho is determining whether or not hes actually getting the third CC or not, and i know i can scout the front but with reactor hellion opening it can be hard to get a ling up there and ovie scouts are unreliable, so if i try a roach+bling bust or something and he hasnt gone for the early third then ill probs lose or be really behind, unless im just terrible at roach bling busts.
Quality of players is usually gms/high gms who can macro as well as me

[rezyn8]

3 CC is gaining popularity on the KR server and as demonstrated by MVP and Bomber. I would check out the recent GSL VODs of said players as their 3 CC didn't really do too well against Zerg.

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

So it's basically a Hellion contain into super greedy double expand?

Can you safely get ling speed with a couple of lings out before you get contained to run around and scout? If this is possible then he either has to commit to chasing your lings down or containing you, but as soon as you see the double expand you know it's safe to bust. If you lose the lings then I'm not sure.

Any Masters/GMs that want to chip in, feel free.

[ROOTPetraeus]

I never really felt that I was having a direct issue because of the 3CC style. I think its quite common these days unless the Terran is doing an all in or 2 base timing. I usually just respond with a quick third. The only issue you are going to have is when the Terran lifts off to take a third. If you can prevent them from setting it up then you'll be a pretty big lead. Anyway, thats my approach to it.

[SLCN.Kez]

I open hatch then gas then pool but speed gets done after a few hellions are out and usually he can find the initial 4 i build but yeh maybe i need to get better at hiding them or getting more out once his hellions are at my front, and i dont have a gom pass! maybe i need to get one, but i usually try to watch it live.

Also even if i get the lings out its still hard to determine hes definitely g oing early 3 cc as they dont move it out till 10-11 mins at the earlier, and like i said its hard to scout it with ovies, so basically im asking if theres a way for it not to be a coin flip and bust or not lol :S.

I was thinking maybe opening more aggressive like leenocks delayed roach ling rush with 3rd behind it that hits round 7:30 that will generally bring all his units to the front, but i dunno lol was just wondering what the pros do

[SLCN.Kez]

maybe ill try find replays of other good koreans from ladder games or something, any good site for korean replays? i used to use sc2rep.com but that doesnt seem very reliable

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by kez

I open hatch then gas then pool but speed gets done after a few hellions are out and usually he can find the initial 4 i build but yeh maybe i need to get better at hiding them or getting more out once his hellions are at my front, and i dont have a gom pass! maybe i need to get one, but i usually try to watch it live.

Zerglings aren't the best response to hellions. I would suggest 2 Queens and 1 Spine at your Natural. Build only a small amount of Zerglings for trapping the hellions. The rest of your larvae should be DRONES!!

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by Petraeus

Zerglings aren't the best response to hellions. I would suggest 2 Queens and 1 Spine at your Natural. Build only a small amount of Zerglings for trapping the hellions. The rest of your larvae should be DRONES!!

This. The Zerglings with speed would be to outrun Hellions for scouting purposes. Or at least that's my theory.

[TASlowHands]

Well every time I've scouted 3 cc and tried to all in its been very coinflippy, as the terrans were getting tanks and siege to protect them selves and using that very sexy 3 bunker triangle thats so popular on KR recently, So I guess just business and macro as usual is the only way and try and deny that third from landing

[SLCN.Kez]

yeah thats generally what ive been trying to do, its probs really annoying to be theory crafting this but tbh im dead bored at work and figured why the hell not lol

"Zerglings aren't the best response to hellions. I would suggest 2 Queens and 1 Spine at your Natural. Build only a small amount of Zerglings for trapping the hellions. The rest of your larvae should be DRONES!!"

Thats what i already do lol

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

That's what the forums are for, right?

[oo0zula0oo]

what i usually do is when i see a hellion opening
i would get an early third as they cant kill it with just hellions~
this forces the terran to react and if he did double expand then u can always take a 4th and drone like mad.
what i also like to do is force the hellions back and get a tonne of lings and sneak past the hellion contain.
then send them into the terran nat where if he didnt go double expand then u probably will lose many lings but he wouldnt have enough units to kill all of them and will end up losing many scvs and force a lift of the cc but if he goes double expand then u r really ahead and from that little counter attack you won the game.
and this really doesnt set you back too much because you still have your third to fall back on and that means you can drone up much faster and get your eco back while he is tryin to deal with the lings~

hope this helps~

[cruxBsK]

Roaches or banelings I reckon would really **** this build up.

[Nemo]

That's Thorzain usual opening. He did it more or less 4 times against Stephano during the last ShoutCraft final. It ended 4-0 for Stephano. He just was super aggressive with pure speedling or speedlings and roach on 3 bases. The idea is to deny the 3rd.

You might find the replay interesting if they are available.

[AvPoker]

The best thing you can do against this build is to first drone up until you fully saturate 3 bases after scouting that he is indeed going 3 ccs, start getting a fourth and getting really aggressive with your mutas and lings. Because he went for three command centres early, he won't have as much units to defend with and will be more spread out due to the threat of mutas. You have to take advantage of this by poking in all sides with mutas and picking off add-ons and small groups of marines while counter-attacking the third with lings and banes when you realise that he's too far spread. If you can't find any holes, then that means he is playing overly defensive and spent a lot of minerals on turrets/bunkers, delaying his push while you have maximum saturation and up to 4-5 bases running. If you spread your creep well enough, it should be really difficult for the terran to move out as you should have a max army of mutas/ling/banes roaming around the middle of the map while you tech to hive and eventually max on brood lord/ultra tech after the first 200/200 engagement.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Thanks for the insight

[|Erasmus|]

If they go for a third orbital and make more than 4-ish hellions before switching into tanks, then it should be easy to win with just roach/baneling.

But, as you said, it's hard to scout. But it's hard to counter -any- build if you don't scout well. If you can just hide a few lings on the map and send an overlord you can see if he has very few units defending and too many scvs and be agressive.

And yeah, pokerface is sexy... listen to him.

[PiG]

Dirty builds like this are the reason roach-ling and roach-bane 'allins' or 'pressures' are becoming so common. They tend to auto-kill these builds even if they see you leaving your base and start preparing immediately.

My suggestion would be if he goes straight into reactor starport (overseer tells you this as well as spots 3rd CC if u didnt see it already) then just make 50 speedbanes and kill him. Minimum damage you will clear the natural of his entire army and all the scvs. A tweak is if medivacs arent too close to being out to skip the mutas.

Another approach would be to just take a 3rd but don't drone it and mass roach and upgrade drops. Should be a timing arund 140-160 supply where he is spread so thin you can drop his main for massive damage while rallying into his natural/3rd. This is a bit tricky to execute though as roaches tend to get stuck between buildings and become useless if not microd well.

[inFeZa]

Bit irrelevent but there was a thing that day9 said about the infamous colossus void ray composition.

"Oh, he's getting colossus void ray? Then i guess the answer to that is to just go ******* kill him, right?"

If you think about it thats 800minerals sunk into the early game for buildings that wont be too much of use till later.