[breadfan]

So since I didn't reach my goals in season 5, I figure in season 6 I need to get a bit more focused.

I feel you can go right through the BSG leagues with 1 solid build in each matchup. So for the platinum and diamond level, how many builds do you think someone should have for each one? I'm talking ladder builds - I have a bunch that I'd pull out in a tournament situation (including any cheeses I know) that I wouldn't use on ladder.

I'm thinking I'll have 2 main builds, and one variant build (e.g. if I open every game vs protoss with a 1rax FE, except for certain maps where I might decide to do a 2rax expand - this is my variant opening). Before I commit myself to this small selection of builds, I'd love to know - is this a good move?

[Fenner]

1.

That is well practiced and has lots of branches as reactions to what the opponent does.

edit: And maybe alternatives for maps that don't allow that 1 build.

Quick Comments

	Stallion:	yep
	breadfan:
	xGKingdelete:	pretty much this, one against each race, not including cheeses

[Trusty]

If you want to take it further, pick one Match up where you're doing a "macro" // reaction based build.

In the other 2 match ups, pick 1 type of all-in (nothing stupid like proxy rax etc). And spam it.

There is a huge stigma against practicing all-ins, but they are the builds that will increase your execution skills the fastest, as there are simple bench marks to hit.

Trying to focus on 'macro' strategies in all 3 match ups at one time is really really difficult.

This is what I used to do:

Week 1 & 2:
PvT - 3gate Voidray all-in
PvP - 3 stalker into 4gate (keke ultra cheezy)
PvZ - 'Macro' (long term oriented build) - I think it was like FFE into Robo/Twilight.

When I was happy with my PvZ Macro build, as in that I could do it without thinking, I would move to a different match up

PvT - 1 Gate FE into double forge
PvP - Still 4gate
PvZ - The same FFE into robo/twilight.

Then once I'm happy with the PvT I'd move onto something long-term oriented for PvP.

Tl;DR:
It's very difficult to learn a long-term oriented strategy in all 3 match ups at the same time. Work on one only, till you're happy, then branch into another. If you have to pause and think in the first 10~ minutes of a game, you don't know the strategy well enough.

With the all-ins you should be doing them no matter what, regardless of what you scout. Stick to it. You're aiming on execution.


Edit: If at anytime you get bogged-down in one of the new 'macro' strategies your learning, It's ok to go back to full-time all-in on the other 2 match ups. This assumes you are analysing all your replays, wins or losses (which you should be).

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Trusty

There is a huge stigma against practicing all-ins, but they are the builds that will increase your execution skills the fastest, as there are simple bench marks to hit.

Thanks! I was being a bit candid but I was planning on including a couple of all-ins in my 6 - TvP I have the 111 and TvZ I have a marauder hellion all-in. Although I'll probably look to focus on macroing against zerg, since Zerg opponents always seem so eager to macro themselves

When I said I didn't cheese on ladder, I meant more specifically along the lines of proxies, or any time you cut workers early.

I appreciate the feedback so far guys, I'm starting to get an idea for how I will approach the season

[MazEi]

When I played against T, just 1 against every race. Maybe two against Protoss since sometimes I feel like fast expanding and other times just wanna get more units first. Against Zerg I just had a timing attack and for T, just went mech which usually meant gas first opening.

[Snx.Mufasa]

Nothing wrong with trying to learn more builds at any level but obviously you've gotta expect improvement at a slower rate because you're trying to learn and remember so many things.

Should come down to preference though, if you want to learn and get some variety in your match ups so certainly don't see why you couldn't regardless of leagues.

[Jaywalk]

1 build per match up, depth over breadth imo.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by ToREchoes

1 build per match up, depth over breadth imo.

While I whole heartedly agree, my concern is forcing something harrass-ey on a large map like TDA. Say you want to hit a protoss right as warp gate is about to finish - potentially, you leave your base, warp gate finishes and he spots your incoming units, does a round of warp ins and then when you are knocking on his front door, he is able to get a second round of warp ins off. Proxies might be good here but I think Trusty had a good point, and I think this type of play is more suited to a competition match.

So I guess the question is now, when do I expand from this style of build focus? Diamond? Masters? GM?

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by breadfan

While I whole heartedly agree, my concern is forcing something harrass-ey on a large map like TDA. Say you want to hit a protoss right as warp gate is about to finish - potentially, you leave your base, warp gate finishes and he spots your incoming units, does a round of warp ins and then when you are knocking on his front door, he is able to get a second round of warp ins off. Proxies might be good here but I think Trusty had a good point, and I think this type of play is more suited to a competition match.

You should do your builds on all maps, unless you already have a firm understanding of what limitations each map presents to your build.

I would still recommend doing it anyway....

Edit:
What you're trying to do is improve your execution & multi tasking skills. In reality you should not care at all what league/rank you are (I don't).
Most of last season I was intentionally doing builds that were weak to certain maps, because they were multi-tasking builds.

Like Collosus WP harass in PvT on all maps, even if there was very little 'dead space' around the base to harass from.

You end goal is to become a player that has the skills required to execute any build easily. It's also why it's generally considered that Terran is the race that will make you a 'better player' the fastest, as they have the easiest access to multi-tasking scenarios (read: medivacs)

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by Trusty

You should do your builds on all maps, unless you already have a firm understanding of what limitations each map presents to your build.

I would still recommend doing it anyway....

this is true you should have a generic build that works on all maps and then add things in as you get better per map

[syfChadMann]

Yeah, I was talking to Hectic about this at ACL GC.. He says he only uses 6 builds. 2 for each match up - 1 for a big map, 1 for a small map. From there he is reactionary.. Which is really good.. because the early to mid game, he always knows what he is doing and knows the scout timings.

But a Terran player, can survive with a bio, bio/mech and a mech build.. three builds in all situations. with tweeks and scout timings that allow the build to be reactive to what you see.

[Jaywalk]

Originally Posted by breadfan

While I whole heartedly agree, my concern is forcing something harrass-ey on a large map like TDA. Say you want to hit a protoss right as warp gate is about to finish - potentially, you leave your base, warp gate finishes and he spots your incoming units, does a round of warp ins and then when you are knocking on his front door, he is able to get a second round of warp ins off. Proxies might be good here but I think Trusty had a good point, and I think this type of play is more suited to a competition match.

So I guess the question is now, when do I expand from this style of build focus? Diamond? Masters? GM?

if your doing safe solid macro builds, you shouldn't need to hit at any pre conceived timing, but react to what he is doing and find the timings as the game progresses you can also tweak your core builds on the fly to be more reactive.

[Reere]

I would recommend just having 1 safe general build per matchup.

I started off in Silver back in April 2011. I only had 1 build/strategy per match-up, all the way to Masters. Only now in masters am I starting to explore other strategies.

Here's a example of what I used, hopefully it will help plan out your style/build.

ZvP - 14p/14g/21h --> Roach/Hydra/Corruptor
ZvT - 14p/14g/21h --> Ling/bane/muta
ZvZ - 14p/14g --> Ling/bane

It's true that my opening isn't the most economical, but it was an opening that let me deal with anything early that came my way. It let me focus on other mechanics in the game rather then my Build order/composition.

Back then my mentality was, 15h is no doubt a more economical opening, but what's the point of opening 15h if I'm missing queen injects, and banking over 500minerals pre-7minutes of the game. If I had gone 15h, I would have not reaped the economical benefits, and put myself in an army disadvantage early on.

Sorry this is all Zerg examples~ GLHF!

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Awesome advice! Great food for thought
	MazEi:	Though I would've gone 15h to practice macro-ing instead, still the exact advice to give =)
	Doctor:	I'm going with this ! Thanks :)

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by breadfan

So I guess the question is now, when do I expand from this style of build focus? Diamond? Masters? GM?

Never, keep doing it.

See a cool thread on TL that has a build you want to try? Chuck it in one of your match ups, spam it.
See someone do a sick timing in GSTL? Watch the vod. Break the build down on paper. Use it, spam it.

Literally, your goal should be that if you loaded a replay of you, and one of MVP - there should be no difference till the 'deviation' parts in the build. Him doing a 2rax should be the same as you doing a 2rax (obviously his micro will be better :P).

That's your goal, hit all the benchmarks. Don't be late on any of your stuff.


Here's a cute example I like to say to my students (I use PvP as an example).
There are 2 guys, A & B. Both play protoss.
- Player A only practices 4gate. He can do it perfectly, hitting a 5:34 warp-in every time. Regardless.
- Player B 'just does' a variety of builds. He doesn't care about hitting perfect benchmarks. He does a variety of 1gate tech 'stuff', and just puts it down to 'build order loss' when he loses to 4gate.

For examples sake, Player B cannot get a sentry out vs suspected 4gate by 5:25 when he's doing 1gate Robo/Stargate/TC - he hasn't practiced and refined his builds enough.

They meet in a tournament, best of 5.
What do you think is going to happen if player A decides to 4gate 3 games in a row?

He's going to Dominate player B.
- Player B has no idea on the exact time he needs to scout in order to afford a Sentry by 5:25.
- He doesn't know the exact time he needs to add his 2nd and 3rd gateway.
- He doesn't know how to position his units on a secondary-ramp like Shakuras nat.
- He doesn't know to use 3 cb's on WG, and save a 4th at the 'danger time' (5:10 -> 5:35).
- He is only able to warp-in one panic-sentry, then falls over and dies.

Practice makes perfect. Don't cut corners in your practice. If you can't hit similar timings as Nestea/Mc/Mvp, then keep practicing till you can.
Don't make excuses.
Don't compare yourself to your friends/peers around you on the ladder.

Someone bitches to you when you 4gate them? Calls you a noob? Tells you "You'll get nowhere doing that, noob"??
You just tell them: "Where do you think you'll go if you keep losing to it?".

Final note: Don't plateau. If you think you've mastered a build, start a new one. Keep learning.

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Wow, that edit turned this into a real gold mine. You have been amazingly helpful this thread
	FlashVeno:	amazingly true
	FSBenAD:	Great post!
	rezyn8:
	Nemo:	Thanks, very interesting.
	SLCN.Kez:	Motivational!
	illpot:

[Celldweller]

You should use ladder to track progress, and get into GPD's and BSG's, laddering is just practicing, take a few losses to perfect a build, eventually you will get to a point where you will just smash everyone in your league and get promoted easily.
I like to have 1 or 2 B.O for each race and a few all-ins for each race.

Quick Comments

ToRSpookToR:

LOL arnt all your builds all in

[IXLbwodie]

only really need 1 good opener per race, the thing is being able to adapt the build into the mid game based on your opponent

[EveLoire]

I just have one opener per race, and react to whatever i scout! i find following builds to be a very... boring way to play, just doesn't feel as fun to me.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

I would like to be like that, but I'm not confident enough knowing builds by heart yet

[breadfan]

Well there's been a ton of awesome suggestions here and I each one has given me something to try or at least to keep in mind.

So I thank everyone greatly

I'm going to try Trusty's approach of using an all in for 2 matchups while focusing on macroing in another until I have the macro build down pat.

My concern is, I don't know an effective all in for TvZ! I mean, I guess I could 11/11 rax, or do a marauder hellion timing. Is there a better option?

[rezyn8]

I'd advise against all-ins, you will most likely lose more than you win on ladder - they are handy to have in tournament settings but to improve you should look at a specific build per match up. Once you have those three down pat, you can look at an alternative to add to your repertoire.

[ToRMaverick]

TRUSTY this is bloody awsome. I would rep train you forever but I cant give you any till i share it round (I should just so I can rep you again).

It all makes perfect sence and at this point I fit into "player B" catagory. I am taking this on board as of right now and implimenting it for season 6.

I seriously want you as my mentour. Awsome stuff!