[HDPhoenix]

Hey everyone

Was just wondering how many others here enjoy Poker, namely Texas Holdem. I was really bored at the airport and had zero juice in my laptop so I couldnt even do work. So I started playing this iPhone app called Pokerist. Now I play poker extremely casually (aka at parties or my univ's casino night), but I usually do really well.

So in roughly 1 1/2hr, I went from $1000 to over $25,000. Curious right? I was just thinking if there is a co-relation between people who play strategy games and does who play a chance game that requires very firm and clear decision making (aka Poker). I've heard of Korea progamers becoming card sharks or stock brokers on retirement because of the common theme of quick and firm decision making.

So I guess my TL: DR question is, does SC2 make you a better Poker player?

[ddengster]

Yea, in fact some of the top poker players like rekrul and elky played SC professionally. I'd say there is a relation between being good at both poker and rts games.

Anyway, try the app called World Series of Poker(WSOP). It might prove to be more of a challenge.

[divinesage]

But what exactly is the correlation here. I mean yes I've tried poker but how does the quick decision making process come into play?

[Maro]

I do Texas Hold'em a lot too, and judging by how I went from $20k to $200k in one night (of course it's all Zynga credits~ & how I wished it was real $$$), I think I'd consider myself as not one of the worse poker play on this earth.

Anyway, could it be due to these correlations:
1) Resource management. In poker, you have to consider pot odds before calling or raising, when looking at your hand. You can't just blindly go all in.

2) The Bluff. How many times do you think you're going to win with an All In when your hand is 2 Hearts and 6 Diamond? The better Poker players will learn your bluff all too soon.

3) The fold. Sometimes it's just better to lose what you have on the table, instead of throwing in more resources with a call. It's like sometimes it's just better (economically) to sack an expansion than to continously throw a pitiful defensive army at it.

Eh, I can't think of anymore at this time of the nite, so anyone, feel free to add.

[DRFT]

Poker can be considered strategic. Therefore, ppl who play sc, which is obviously strategy based, could also enjoy poker. Or ANY other game with some form of strategy to it.
I would very highly doubt that the 2 games share some sort of link, or that playing 1 would improve the other...

[cure]

I don't play much poker but isn't poker like math related? Look at the cards out and think of the possible combinations they can have the your win% , then decide on how much to raise ? lol.

[NvPinder]

I dont think playing sc2 will make you good at poker, but i think being naturally a good sc2 player involves very similar logical reasoning as playing poker does.

in other words, the ability to be good at starcraft = the ability to be good at poker.

[Geno_]

I think it's the decision making that plays a huge part. It seemed really weird when I heard that after BW some of the pros just started becoming real good at poker but yeah its probably the decision making

[Crankenstein]

Pretty sure Jinro played professional Poker before sc2

[FatHuntresS]

The only real correlation is your ability to sit 20 hours infront of your computer to train SC2 while u do it at poker for grinding $$ and having coke and hamburgers around your computer table.

first of all its normal for gamers to become poker players as it is a game itself.
2nd of all there is more non-gamers that became pro poker players
3rd of all its all about probability and since gamers are human they part of it went to poker.


who doesnt need to make a living?

Other than that i think mind games is the only OTHER correlation that you will get in sc2 and poker especially for heads up (1v1) oh and maybe FFA, u dont simply attack and kill yourself, in a 9 player table, u try to conserve and survive before you attack while you get your chances etc etc.

[iMSystem]

Poker is more of a luck based game.
I stopped playing it a while back because you might be sitting there doing everything right, (Raising before the flop with a strong hand, follow up betting, etc) But in the end, you'll just get outlucked

[Jaii]

I made about $800 US playing poker for a few months a couple of years ago, but it got to the point where it was becoming work instead of fun (and work for a couple of dollars an hour at best, grinding out on the 20c tables on the iPoker network). So I quit. I still log in very intermittantly but very quickly get bored with playing for 20c. I think I would find fun again by increasing the stress factor (say to $1 or $2 blinds) but my pockets arnt deep enough to support that (you should have 20 times a 100 blind buy in, so for a $2 blind NL player you should have $4,000 available to play poker with!).

But alot of very general poker skills can be applied to sc2 and vice versa. Intelligence, awareness, a willingness to take the initiative and strong decision making apply to both.

I think alot of profitable, younger internet poker players would quickly hit masters in sc2 with a some mouse/keyboard control work (APM would be the biggest block), and alot of master sc2 players would quickly turn a profit in poker with some basic training in the game.

Beating a script out of its pretend money (or beating people out of "credits") isnt really much to crow about btw. Until there are actual implications for losing, people will do retarded things (like shove 27o preflop "bluffing") over and over again... it acts like a feeder for anyone with a touch of sense and skill.

Anyone really interested in getting into poker for a bit of fun should check out PokerStrategy. They will give you $50 if you read their starter articles and answer a quiz based on them, and progressively train you up into a profitable poker player. I can vouch for them and will swear on a stack of bibles that I got my free $50 plus a whole raft of other bonus money for playing w/ them long enough to unlock it. There is no catch. There is no spam. There is nothing but $50 that you could lose instantly if you want (go all in first hand). You just cant withdraw the starting $50 until you play enough poker; the winings you can take out immediately (go all in, win, have $110? you can withdraw the $60 difference).

You can check them out and/or sign up directly at www.pokerstrategy.com

+ [referral link spoiler] +

Or, if you wanted to do me a favour, signing up via http://www.pokerstrategy.com/?referrer=Jaissica may get me small cash bonuses, if you ended up playing long enough. However I put this in a spoiler box as it isnt the point, at all, of this post.

Im also happy to help people serious about learning poker with setting up the Poker Strategy "Elephant" application. This epic, awesome, made-of-pure-win free software provides an overlay to your poker window on supported clients and records every hand you play and the people you played against. It can give you an outline of what your opponents have been doing or done in the past (EG how often they enter a pot, which allows you to guess what kind of hands they consider raising with, or how often they raise in late position, which allows you to guess how often they have nothing and are just stealing). A massive advantage over people who dont use it.

A qualification; I will help you with it until such a time as I think you arnt really cut out for poker. If you find you cant seem to break out of silver no matter what you try, playing poker for real money probably isnt going to work out for you.

Edit - TL is also sponsored by pokerstrategy atm. If you wanted to support that epic website of awesome sc2-ness, im sure you could find a referral link to sign up through there.

[aztecx]

In a proper online cash game, the edge between an okay player and a good player may often be at most 3bb/100 hands once you take into consideration variance. Anyone can turn 20,000 zynga credits into 200,000 over a couple of hours play, but those same people can also lose that 200,000 credit in just a matter of hands. In order to find out if you're actually a winning player you need to have played at least around 50,000 hands to accommodate for any possible variance that may skew your results.

I turned $100 into $1200 in two hours at the casino the first time I ever played poker for real money. Does that mean I'm a good player? Nope. Now that I think back, I had no idea how to play poker back then.

I personally don't believe being a good sc2 player will make you a good poker player because they are two completely different games. Sc2 is a bit more like chess, a game of complete information, whilst poker is a game of incomplete information. There have been many arguments comparing chess with poker and it has often been concluded that someone great at chess will not necessarily be great at poker. There are a number of obstacles players need to overcome with poker that you won't need to overcome in games such as chess and sc2. These include tilt and the human brains strong connection with money. Many professional poker players say they have a complete disregard for money and I don't believe just anyone can have this same mindset.

As an example I'd say that 2NL is probably a LOT harder than Zynga Poker (lol). I think over 20,000 hands not many people could actually be profitable at 2NL (in relation to the amount of people that actually play poker).

[Stroggos]

i dunno if playing sc2 makes everyone a better poker player. There are alot of sc players that i think would suck at poker. but its probably made some people a better poker player. funnily enough playing poker has made me a better sc2 player, and sc2 a better poker player.

You need way more elements to be a good poker player than to be a good sc2 player as well. Bankroll management is one example.

the variance in poker can also be crazy. I've seen people go on 100 buy in downswings over half a million hands, even though they usually beat the limit at 2bb/100 in the last million hands.

[Jaii]

Its curious that you say you need way more elements to be a good poker player than SC2 player. You definantly dont need twitch reaction or strong motor skills / hand eye coordination to be a top poker player, just as you dont need strong basic math/probability to be a sc2 player...

BRM is one example, but you could even apply a basic version of it to a simple stop-loss laddering technique. Math skills you dont need in SC2, but fast decision making you do (even when the clock is called with you holding a straight on a flush draw, you still have more time to react to that than an unscouted proxy stargate).

I would say more people would be capable of becoming profitable online poker (5% rake) players than excellent (high diamond+) sc2 players. Math, reading people, dealing with financial pressure and considered decision making you can teach and learn with experience; fast, accurate control and reactions most people will never have, and progressively lose for every year they age past 30

[Stroggos]

ok you have a good point. The reason i started playing poker was because it didn't rely on physical ability like sc(unless your 24 tabling 6max), In starcraft i hit a wall with my physical ability. I cannot accurately click on things with speed as well as the top players and that hasn't improved with mass gaming.

[aztecx]

Originally Posted by Jaii

I would say more people would be capable of becoming profitable online poker (5% rake) players than excellent (high diamond+) sc2 players. Math, reading people, dealing with financial pressure and considered decision making you can teach and learn with experience; fast, accurate control and reactions most people will never have, and progressively lose for every year they age past 30

I don't agree with this. When you lose a game of Sc2, you can watch a replay and generally see where you made the mistake. Whether it be your macro slipped, you micro'd poorly or a misjudgment in strategy. All these things can be changed and results will be noticed immediately. With poker you may find yourself in a certain situation numerous times, and whilst you seem to be winning it does not mean that you are playing well. Winning a hand generally doesn't mean that you played the hand correctly and very few players can play each hand they are a part of in a way which maximise profits and minimise losses. Since poker is a game of variance and slow return, changes in strategy may often only be noticed over long periods of time.

I feel that it's fair to say Sc2 is more like a sport, generally the more you play and practice the better you will get. Obviously there may be certain exceptions but that's the same with everything. Just as in any other sport, participants will often have a prime and once they grow older their bodies won't be able to function at the rate they used to be able to which will cause a slide in performance. Poker on the other hand is almost completely a mental game and whilst everyone can learn the rules, I believe that a LOT of people no matter how much they play will ever be able to truly learn the game and be able to improve. Whilst the human mind is very clever and capable of learning and adapting, certain changes in brain chemistry caused by gambling can overpower rational thought. Some personality traits that I believe will almost instantaneously disqualify someone from becoming a good poker player are superstitious beliefs and being prone to gambling addiction.

[AvPoker]

Yes SC makes me a better poker player.

[Dogsi]

If you are an idiot, you will not be good at sc2.
If you are an idiot, you will not be good at poker.

I think that's about as far as the correlation really goes. Yes, smart people are more likely to be better at sc2 and at poker.

[Hybrid]

Originally Posted by Soulbora

Poker is more of a luck based game.
I stopped playing it a while back because you might be sitting there doing everything right

I could probably gaurantee you that you were not doing everything right, i used to play hours of poker per day, losing at the start, to finally getting some decent scores. With poker even though you may think you have a "valuable"hand you have to think what your opponent has, think about both of these things in comparison to the blinds, and what board texture you have, does your opponent bluff, have you been bluffing and caught? are they a complete donk who will not fold a pair of threes to overs and you have A,K but haven't hit?

These are only a few things out of many. Varience is involved with poker but the more hands and games you play will come down to skill. Sure luck is involved in the game and sometimes you will be rivered etc, but overall luck isn't that huge. I know and know of people that make thousands per week play less than $20 tables more often than not, this is where all of the donkeys play that don't have too much of an idea.

Poker isn't an easy game it takes patience, and skill to lose the least in a hand where you are beat, and to extract the most value with your winning hands. I had hope to be playing low stakes tournaments and sit and goes for a living, but didnt quite have the mindset to do it 'when i was trying 12 months ago, it can get quite swingy with losses and i found that the hardest to deal with. I will start again with a few hours a week soon once i get back into the strategy of poker again and hook up with some people that DO this for a living for a kick start for some help.

So in my answer sc2 can get you thinking on other levels on what your opponent is doing and reacting to their strategy, poker has some similar elements of higher levels of thinking that you can use to outplay your opponent if you understand the basics of poker